Who were Vandals?

[Tomenable]

By the way - before the end of 2016, some new samples of ancient Y-DNA from Poland will be published.

So we will learn several things, I guess.

But I don't think that there will be many samples from Przeworsk culture, since they practiced cremation.

However, there will be numerous samples from Wielbark culture (which is often associated with Goths).

And I already know one Wielbark Y-DNA.

[Sile]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetic_theory
This article is only about Slovenes.

Russian archeologist akademik Sedov is most important archeologist in Russia. Vandals have German-Slavic origin

The Venetic theory for being slovenian is now dead

The theory has also gained support in some nationalist circles. However, the theory has been challenged by certain writers,^[4]:145 and it has been rejected by both mainstream linguists^[1][2] and historians.<sup>[5]

The Slovenians latest theory states they have illyrian markers as part of their ethnicity


The Venedi of the baltic are of West-baltic origin


The Veneti of the Adriatic are of Euganei people who are indigenous to North-East italy</sup>

[Taranis]

R1a is by no means "typically Germanic".

There is a huge scarcity of R1a among "purely" Germanic nations, except for Scandinavia (but there it is R1a-Z284 and R1a-L664 rather than R1a-Z280 or R1a-M458 - which are totally different clades, that have not been found in Corded Ware culture and according to TMRCA age estimates, expanded much later).

First, I would like to say that I wrote that post back in 2011. That makes a big difference to me. Second, I would like to say that the assumption that R1a is somehow associated with Germanic peoples was reasonable then, and it is reasonable now. As you are aware, R1a was present in Central Europe with the Corded Ware (Eulau, see Haak et al.) and Urnfield Cultures (Lichtenstein cave, see Schweitzer et al.). Although I'm amiss where in the R1a tree they fall, it is evidence that R1a was present in what is today Germany substantially earlier.

You mentioned some the most Germanic-sounding names that appears among them - Geiseric, Hilderic..

I picked those two precisely because the Germanic etymology is readily comprehensible. But, in any casee can agree that they are Germanic names, and as I said, Procopius claimed that they spoke 'Gothic'. We have attested two forms of Gothic: The 'biblical' Gothic, from that 300s translation of the New Testament into Gothic. and the much younger Crimean Gothic, Busbecq's account. Both are unanimously Germanic languages. I do not see any potential for controversy here.

But there are also Non-Germanic-sounding Vandal names, from African and Iberian inscriptions, such as:

Crecemirus, Damiro, Godemiro, Gramila, Gualamira, Gualamirus, Gudileuva, Lubinus, Miro, Odisclus, Onemirus, Radagajs, Rademirus, Ragimiru, Ranisclus, Ricimer, Salamirus, Sueredus, Suimirus, Sinthiliuba, Sundemirus, Suniemirus, Swintila, Victemirus, Vistisclo, Vistremiro, Vitisclus, Svevlad, Visislaus, Vitislaus, Wisimar, Miesiclaus, Radagaisus, Valamir

These are some of the least Germanic-sounding names that appear in various inscriptions and chronicles.

This probably belongs into a separate thread, but I'd like to pinpoint you to something: some of these are decidedly through Latin/Romance transmission (especially the cases where *w > *gw, compare how "William" and "Guillaume" fit together). Hence "Gualamirus" and "Valamir" are just renderings of the same name. Radagaisus is a variant of the English name "Roger" (or "Rüdiger" in German, 'famous spear'). Bear in mind that unlike West Germanic and North Germanic, the East Germanic languages did not obey to the *z > *r rhotacism.

[Tomenable]

Taranis,

As you are aware, R1a was present in Central Europe with the Corded Ware

Firstly, Corded Ware was not yet Germanic. The earliest Proto-Germanic culture was either the Nordic Bronze Age or Jastorf. It is possible that the Nordic Bronze Age developed from one of Corded Ware (or more precisely - Battle Axe) groups. We have a hint which one was that - there is one sample of R1b-U106 from a Battle Axe burial in Southern Sweden (RISE98 sample).

RISE98 is the oldest R1b-U106 discovered so far. Then we have two U106-s from Roman-era Eburacum.

And you might expect some new samples of R1b-U106 before the end of this year.

Secondly, Western Corded Ware R1a was most probably neither M458+ nor Z280+. None of these two SNPs has been confirmed so far in CWC samples (and keep in mind that Z280 and M458 make up the vast majority of European R1a today). It seems that most of Western Corded Ware R1a were nowadays extinct or rare lineages such as M417* - M417(xZ645), some M417+, some Z645+. There was also one sample of M198*. Finally, the presence of CTS4385+ (Eulau), L664+ (RISE446 from Bergheinfeld) and Z284+ (RISE61 from Zealand) has been confirmed. But these lineages are only a rather small minority of German and Austrian R1a today.

CTS4385 and L664 used to be called "Old European" branches in the past. But now they can be securely associated with Corded Ware westward expansion towards the Rhine. These branches are scattered all over Western Europe and Central Europe today, but their frequencies tend to be low everywhere. There are no populations with high frequency of these lineages.

and Urnfield Cultures (Lichtenstein cave

These were only tested to R1a1+ level, probably due to low quality of samples. There is no evidence that they were Z280+ or M458+.

Although I'm amiss where in the R1a tree they fall

See above. Most of them were either basal, extinct, or rare (today) subclades. Neither has been confirmed as Z280+ or M458+. So it seems that demographic explosion of Z280+ and M458+ lineages of R1a took place later than the Early Bronze Age.

Modern R1a in Germany and Austria (as well as in Eastern Europe) is overwhelmingly of either M458+ or Z280+ variety.

The oldest sample of confirmed M458 that we have so far, is from a Medieval Slavic burial from the island of Usedom. There are also some M458-s from Early Medieval Poland, but they haven't yet been published (they will be published soon). However, this doesn't tell us much about the origins of M458. Identifying M458 in Iron Age or Bronze Age samples - that would be great.

[Tomenable]

I've found a book by Herbert Schutz who apparently thinks that Wielbark culture was a Germanic-Slavic mix:

https://books.google.pl/books?id=r-D...page&q&f=false

Check "Map 12. The Slavs" - he associates Wielbark and Cernjachov cultures with Slavs, but on what basis?

===================
Coming back to Corded Ware:

it is evidence that R1a was present in what is today Germany substantially earlier.

Yes but as I wrote, those were not "modern" (common today) subclades. It seems that Bell Beaker populations expanded into Corded Ware territories from the west, and either replaced or otherwise outnumbered those previous Corded Ware male populations. One exception were parts of Scandinavia (especially Norway) where Corded Ware population remained dominant.

BTW, CWC people probably never had high population density, as they were largely nomadic.

Perhaps Beaker Folks could achieve higher densities because they switched to farming earlier.

[Sloven-Vened]

Remember the scale of destruction in the European soil from WW1 and WW2 from Germans.

Yes, it is true. Franks (they were Germans) were extremely violent when bloody militarily christianize Slavs. Franks done genocide on Slavs

The only sure things now is that they spoke Germanic language and that they were Christians. Pretty unusual for a Slavic group till 9th century, wouldn't you say?

It is true. Slavs had very advanced, progressive ezoteric spiritualty (no animal sacrifice, no idols). They hated priminive pagan bloodly dogmatic cult of christianity. Saint Stephen done genocide on Slavs at chriastianisation prosess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_I_of_Hungary

The crusade against the Slavs, click to link

[Sloven-Vened]

Reacion to Tomenable posts:
Austria
Greater half of people in Austria has typical Slavic (no German) last names!!! It is very interesting!!! It is realy true!!!!
Official is Austria german country with german language, without Slavic ethnic imigrant minority

[Sloven-Vened]

The Venetic theory for being slovenian is now dead
The theory has also gained support in some nationalist circles. However, the theory has been challenged by certain writers,^[4]:145 and it has been rejected by both mainstream linguists^[1][2] and historians.^{[5]
The Slovenians latest theory states they have illyrian markers as part of their ethnicity}

Sorry, you dont understand me. Sloven is not the same as Slovenian! It is difficult linguistic theory. Sloven = Slav (in simple). You do not understand Slovakian language, it is difficult for you.

Click you to this link, please. History of Slavs before 6. century support hungarian and german archeologists
The biggest myths about Slavs

[Sile]

Sorry, you dont understand me. Sloven is not the same as Slovenian! It is difficult linguistic theory. Sloven = Slav (in simple). You do not understand Slovakian language, it is difficult for you.

Click you to this link, please. History of Slavs before 6. century support hungarian and german archeologists
The biggest myths about Slavs

I understand you................very well

you talk about Veneds being slavs, when they are and have never been slavs............they are balts in origin .......they are part of the flad-bed culture, the cairns culture and others. None of these are slavic in origin

[Artmar]

Taranis,



Firstly, Corded Ware was not yet Germanic. The earliest Proto-Germanic culture was either the Nordic Bronze Age or Jastorf. It is possible that the Nordic Bronze Age developed from one of Corded Ware (or more precisely - Battle Axe) groups. We have a hint which one was that - there is one sample of R1b-U106 from a Battle Axe burial in Southern Sweden (RISE98 sample).

Actually, you should remember the discussion on Anthrogenica where it was proven than U106 wasn't buried in Battle-Axe rite - only on burial site used previously by Battle-Axe people. That's a SIGNIFICANT difference. Guy wasn't Battle-Axe but he possibly belonged to people who pushed CWC groups further north.

[Tomenable]

Actually, you should remember the discussion on Anthrogenica where it was proven than U106 wasn't buried in Battle-Axe rite - only on burial site used previously by Battle-Axe people. That's a SIGNIFICANT difference. Guy wasn't Battle-Axe but he possibly belonged to people who pushed CWC groups further north.

I don't remember. Thanks for pointing this out. What was the title of that thread where it was discussed?

Guy wasn't Battle-Axe but he possibly belonged to people who pushed CWC groups further north.

But what people were those? After all, no any U106 has been found in Bell Beaker remains so far.

I think that it is possible that some R1b lineages came together with majority R1a as Corded Ware. BTW - a few days ago Balanovsky has announced that he discovered a new branch of R1b-L23 - GG400, a brother subclade to L51 and Z2103. So now we have not just two, but three main branches of L23, namely: L23>L51, L23>Z2103 and L23>GG400. The last one seems to be concentrated in Eastern Europe (probably a large part of basal or unresolved L23* from FTDNA Polish Project will turn out to be L23>GG400).

See the link: https://ep70.eventpilot.us/web/page....6&id=160121213

IMO there could be both a small minority of R1a in Bell Beaker, and a small minority of R1b in Corded Ware.

Another typically Eastern European branch of Non-Western R1b is L23>Z2103>Y5587 (so called "EE Type").

[Milan]

Sorry, but what little evidence we have of their language shows that the Vandals were Germanic. Their personal names are overtly Germanic: Geiseric ('spear chieftain' - see English 'gar', and surnames such as "Friedrich" or "Dietrich") and Hilderic ('battle chieftain' - see Brunnhilde from the Nibelungenlied). If the personal names were Germanic, and Procopius for instance claims that they spoke "Gothic" (i.e. a language identical to that of the Goths), what should they have been else but Germanic?

Further on, despite what the Russian-language Wikipedia article claims, although the Vandals were Christians themselves, but they followed another strain of Christianity called Arianism (after its founder, Arius). They were not Orthodox because the difference between Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church did not exist yet at that point.

PS: are you by any chance an adherent of this idea?

I think that you are selective on Procopius there,elsewhere in Gothic wars he made distinction between Germans and Goths,ok that can be because at that time this name was applied to people from Germania.
The name he give is Gizeric instead Geiseric,his father was Godigisclus but apparently again translated as Godigisel,how?
Nowhere does he mention they spoke the same language with Germans,important thing on the history of the Goths is Jordanes himself who was of Gothic descent,so apparently he didn't knew what he wrote,when he mention that Zalmoxis is the god of the Getae/Goths in his Getica,mentioned ever since Herodotus as god of the Getae,he is dubbed fictious for those things today? while we take other information that first mythical homeland of Goths is Scandza,which we came to identify with Scandinavia,his entiry history is based on the Getae,he likewise mention one more Gothic word,that is their writtten laws the "Belagines" , were given to the Goths by Dicineus / Dekaineos, the Dacian-Getic legislator, Zalmoxian priest at the time of Burebista,so can you please translate the word "belagines" for me in common Gothic-Germanic or whatever language in more meaningfull way to understand.
“Rome should have no longer any Getic peril to fear; for they say that the Goths are of the Getic race.” – Procopius. Bello Gothico

[Taranis]

I think that you are selective on Procopius there,elsewhere in Gothic wars he made distinction between Germans and Goths,ok that can be because at that time this name was applied to people from Germania.
The name he give is Gizeric instead Geiseric,his father was Godigisclus but apparently again translated as Godigisel,how?
Nowhere does he mention they spoke the same language with Germans,important thing on the history of the Goths is Jordanes himself who was of Gothic descent,so apparently he didn't knew what he wrote,when he mention that Zalmoxis is the god of the Getae/Goths in his Getica,mentioned ever since Herodotus as god of the Getae,he is dubbed fictious for those things today? while we take other information that first mythical homeland of Goths is Scandza,which we came to identify with Scandinavia,his entiry history is based on the Getae,he likewise mention one more Gothic word,that is their writtten laws the "Belagines" , were given to the Goths by Dicineus / Dekaineos, the Dacian-Getic legislator, Zalmoxian priest at the time of Burebista,so can you please translate the word "belagines" for me in common Gothic-Germanic or whatever language in more meaningfull way to understand.
“Rome should have no longer any Getic peril to fear; for they say that the Goths are of the Getic race.” – Procopius. Bello Gothico

"Gothic" and "Getic" are not the same. Like I said before, we have two attested varieties of Gothic, 'biblical' Gothic (from the 300s) and Crimean Gothic (from the late 1500s). Both languages are unanimously Germanic, but the key point is that they are East Germanic languages that do not share the commonalities that the two other branches, North Germanic and West Germanic, have (z > r rhotacism, development of the Germanic umlaut). In contrast, Getae were Dacians. As you gave the example of "Zalmoxis", Dacian was beyond any doubt a Satem language: the *zalm- element is thought to be a cognate with English 'helmet' and German 'Helm', note how the Indo-European root started with a 'palatalizable' velar *ḱ-. Notice how *ḱ- became palatalized in the Satem languages, but de-palatalized to *k in the Centum languages (and then later shifted to *h in Proto-Germanic, thanks to Grimm's Law).

[Milan]

"Gothic" and "Getic" are not the same. Like I said before, we have two attested varieties of Gothic, 'biblical' Gothic (from the 300s) and Crimean Gothic (from the late 1500s). Both languages are unanimously Germanic, but the key point is that they are East Germanic languages that do not share the commonalities that the two other branches, North Germanic and West Germanic, have (z > r rhotacism, development of the Germanic umlaut). In contrast, Getae were Dacians. As you gave the example of "Zalmoxis", Dacian was beyond any doubt a Satem language: the *zalm- element is thought to be a cognate with English 'helmet' and German 'Helm', note how the Indo-European root started with a 'palatalizable' velar *ḱ-. Notice how *ḱ- became palatalized in the Satem languages, but de-palatalized to *k in the Centum languages (and then later shifted to *h in Proto-Germanic, thanks to Grimm's Law).

I understand that,but the historians considered this people to be one and the same,their names varieties of one and same.
Here is again Procopius because if i quote Jordanes we should read Thracian(Getae) history altogether.
"There were many Gothic nations in earlier times, just as also at the present, but the greatest and most important of all are the Goths, Vandals, Visigoths, and Gepaedes. In ancient times, however, they were named Sauromatae and Melanchlaeni; and there were some too who called these nations Getic".
Jordanes,Isidore of Seville, Orosius, Philostorgius, Procopius,Yeronim Claudius etc thought the same.

Historians didn't made distinction between them,we in more modern times started to make it however.
I won't go into further discussion,thanks anyway i understand and agree with you.

[A. Papadimitriou]

I've noticed that it was quite common to label a tribe 'Germanic' based on very few -if any- actual evidence, sometimes based on pseudoetymologies. The same is true about some 'Iranic' tribes.

[Taranis]

I've noticed that it was quite common to label a tribe 'Germanic' based on very few -if any- actual evidence, sometimes based on pseudoetymologies. The same is true about some 'Iranic' tribes.

As the proverb goes, 'if it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, walks like a duck, you might as well call it a duck'. The ethnic/linguistic affiliation of a lot of historic ethnic groups is a difficult issue, but usually we do have a set of ethnic names, personal names, place names, deity names (there's an entire sub-field of linguistics that deals with this, which is called onomastics). I concede the issue is less clear-cut with nomadic peoples (due to the absence of fixed settlements). But if the sources all speak the same language, pun intended, then there can be little doubt about the identification.

The ancient historians/geographers were horrible ethnographers, that is for sure, and because of this you need to read between the lines.

[A. Papadimitriou]

I wouldn't say that Biblical Gothic isn't Germanic, of course.

Concerning Zalmoxis, z in Attic Greek was 'sd'/ 'zd' supposedly (that's what I have been taught) or 'dz' in earlier forms of Greek. It would be Zdalmoxis then, or Dzalmoxis, I guess.

• Ζεύς ('Zeus') — Archaic /d͡zeús/, Attic /sdeús/ [zdeǔs], late Koine /zefs/ (supposedly)

(I would like to ask a linguist if Z could have been 'dj' or 'dʒ' l originally ike in educate -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonol...od-coalescence)

In Herodotus it's Salmoxis, though.

ἀθανατίζουσι δὲ τόν δε τὸν τρόπον: οὔτε ἀποθνήσκειν ἑωυτοὺς νομίζουσι ἰέναι τε τὸν ἀπολλύμενον παρὰ Σάλμοξιν δαίμονα:

With 'z' in Plato

ἀλλὰ Ζάλμοξις, ἔφη, λέγει ὁ ἡμέτερος βασιλεύς, θεὸς ὤν, ὅτι ὥσπερ ὀφθαλμοὺς ἄνευ κεφαλῆς οὐ δεῖ ἐπιχειρεῖν ἰᾶσθαι οὐδὲ κεφαλὴν ἄνευ σώματος

Onomastics is borderline pseudoscience.

[Taranis]

I wouldn't say that Biblical Gothic isn't Germanic, of course.

Concerning Zalmoxis, z in Attic Greek was 'sd'/ 'zd' supposedly (that's what I have been taught) or 'dz' in earlier forms of Greek. It would be Zdalmoxis then, or Dzalmoxis, I guess.

• Ζεύς ('Zeus') — Archaic /d͡zeús/, Attic /sdeús/ [zdeǔs], late Koine /zefs/ (supposedly)

(I would like to ask a linguist if it could have been 'dj' or 'dʒ' like in educate -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonol...od-coalescence)

The problem with the usage of the letter Zeta in Archaic Greek is that in native Greek words, it seems to have represented either /dz/ or /zd/. However, the point is here that we know that Zeta (and Latin 'z' too) represented all kinds of foreign phonemes not found natively in Greek. A famous example is the city of Ashdod, spelled in Hebrew 'Ašdōd (אשדוד), which is rendered as Azōtos (Αζωτος). Here, the Greek letter Zeta approximates the phomene /ʃd/ as /zd/. I would not be surprised in the slightest of the sound in "Zalmoxis" was actually something like /tʃ/, /ts/, /ʂ/, /ʈʂ/ or even /tɕ/ - which were all phonemes that ancient Greek lacked.

Onomastics is borderline pseudoscience.

And linguistics as a whole is wholly a pseudoscience?

[A. Papadimitriou]

Too many agendas, in general and too much creativity.

I have an example, I just found while googling:

According to Herodotos (Histories 4.94), some Getae also gave Zalmoxis the name Gebeleizis or Beleizis, which Kretschmer has related to the same Indo-European root, *gʾhem-el- ("earth"), that he traced in Zamolxis. Given that Herodotus spoke about a thundering god, Wilhelm Tomaschek corrected the name to Zibeleizis, meaning "thunder sender" (compare the Lithuanian žaibas, "thunderbolt," which has no clear etymology). More recently, Cicerone Poghirc (1983) has proposed, for reasons of textual criticism, the reading Nebeleizis, meaning "god of the [stormy] sky" (compare the Slavic nebo, "sky," and the Greek nephele, "cloud"). …

I like the last one because it reminds me the Greek Νεφεληγερέτης, although all of them were more creative than they should have been. And those are probably some of the moderate ones.

[Milan]

Too many agendas, in general and too much creativity.

I have an example, I just found while googling:


I like the last one because it reminds me the Greek Νεφεληγερέτης, although all of them were more creative than they should have been. And those are probably some of the moderate ones.

Very true.

[Milan]

I wouldn't say that Biblical Gothic isn't Germanic, of course.

There were two at least Bulgarian historians i know about Asen Chilingirov and Julija Dimitrova,writing on Getae and Goths recently.


According to Julija,haven't read the book entirely a Longobardic runes are used in the "Biblcal Gothic",Chilingirov say that the paper is altogether a forgery of 16th,17th century,see Gothicism among Germanic nobility,this is Codex Argentus,Biblical Gothic;

[Milan]

[email protected]
Is it there attested Gothic language on inscription on church or something similar from their age in Spain,Italy? is weird to me if they haven't left a trace if we have just a paper of Bible,located somewhere in Sweden now.

[Taranis]

There were two at least Bulgarian historians i know about Asen Chilingirov and Julija Dimitrova,writing on Getae and Goths recently.

According to Julija,haven't read the book entirely a Longobardic runes are used in the "Biblcal Gothic",Chilingirov say that the paper is altogether a forgery of 16th,17th century,see Gothicism among Germanic nobility,this is Codex Argentus,Biblical Gothic;

Sorry, but to claim that biblical Gothic is a forgery means basically entering the realm of cranks/conspiracy theorists. The script used in the Gothic bible translation are no "Langobardic runes", but they're the Gothic alphabet, which is essentially a mixture of Greek, Latin and Runic alphabet (for example the Gothic "o" seems to be derived from both Greek Omega Ω and Runic "o"). I won't say that people in earlier centuries didn't invent conlangs (because they very much did), but its very clear that Gothic is an authentic Germanic language (albeit one not closely related with the living branches, as I've described before), and to claim it was 'invented in the 16th/17th century by romantic German nobles' is just delusional.

If you ask me, the assertation "Getae and Goths were one and the same, [and were Slavic altogether?]" are just overt ethnocentric nationalist fantasies as well as wishful thinking on the side of the authors that have no factual basis.

[arvistro]

What were the main differences between East Germanic vs other Germanic languages?

[Milan]

Sorry, but to claim that biblical Gothic is a forgery means basically entering the realm of cranks/conspiracy theorists. The script used in the Gothic bible translation are no "Langobardic runes", but they're the Gothic alphabet, which is essentially a mixture of Greek, Latin and Runic alphabet (for example the Gothic "o" seems to be derived from both Greek Omega Ω and Runic "o"). I won't say that people in earlier centuries didn't invent conlangs (because they very much did), but its very clear that Gothic is an authentic Germanic language (albeit one not closely related with the living branches, as I've described before), and to claim it was 'invented in the 16th/17th century by romantic German nobles' is just delusional.

If you ask me, the assertation "Getae and Goths were one and the same, [and were Slavic altogether?]" are just overt ethnocentric nationalist fantasies as well as wishful thinking on the side of the authors that have no factual basis.

Haven't read them thought just because of that,just heard the basics what they claim,also i don't know what "ethnicity" they claim on them.Edit; To add that they are probably independent historians,don't want to say that are Bulgarian academia which perhaps have different opinions.