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Thread: Who were Vandals?

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    Who were Vandals?

    Vandals are somewhat of enigma . Who could gess which haplogroups they were ?
    They could be conected with Przeworsk culture , which maybe belonged to Lugii tribe confederacion , which lidering clans were probably Celtic ( Lug -Celtic god ) . But they could also have German and Baltic elements ( I would exclude Slavic because Slavs do not have maritime tehnology and word for amber - main export article from Baltic sea ) . Very interesting is extinct Balt nation Prussi , who use to burn they deads like Przeworsk , and Veneti probably Balt nation Vindi has very simillar name to Vandals ( same IE roth -love , desire ).Vindic river names are Proto Celtic and simillar to names of rivers in lands of Adriatic Veneti . There was also proposed that Vandals come from Scandinavia : Hallingdal in Norge , Vendel in Swerige and Vendsyssel in Denmark about 120 BC .
    Vandals had two tribes Silingi who use to live in Silesia in west Poland , and Hasdingi ( real name was Aria/ Haria , and they were called Hasdingi because of rulling dinasty) around Vistula.
    Names of tribes could be conected with Slavic words for force/power -SILA , and master/lord - GAZDA/HAZDA .
    Since II century AD they were part of Sarmatian empire, and later they were conected with Alans . II-IV century AD Hasdingi use to live in Panonia on the place where later lived Gepidi . 406 AD they crosing in Galia with Suebes but 20.000 Vandals was kiled by Franks , but then comed Alans alies of Vandals and defeated Franks.Silin 409 they crosed Pirrinei and entered Iberian penincula. Hasdingi setled in Gallaecia , and Silingi in Hispania - Betica ( Andalusia ) .418 Visigots destroyed Hasdingi , and kiled Alan king ( Alans lived in Lusitania , and Carthago Nova ). After that Silingi and Alans conjoined in one nation . 429 they crossing in Africa , in that time Procopius say they numbered 80.000 . In coming years they conquered Numidia , Africa Proconsularis with city Carthage, Sicilly , Sardinia , Corsica , Balearic islands , Byzancena and Tripolitania , using Hunic attacs on Empire .533 Byzantium has conquered they state . Most of them gone to Saladae ( today Bejaia in North Algeria ) and mixed with Berbers . Some escaped in Visigothic and Ostrogothic kingdoms . 5 regiments of Vandalic cavalry was send on Persian border , and rest were moved to Constantinopolis .

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    Hier are some haplogroups from aerias they use to setle. I would please someone to post Haplogroups % for Corsica and Baelarean islands. From this data it looks like most probably they were R1b with maybe some G2a.
    land I1 I2a I2b R1a R1b G2a J N E1b1b T and L Q Poland 6% 9% 1% 56,40% 16,50% 0,50% 2% 0% 3,50% 0% 0% Hungary 8% 15% 2,50% 32,50% 17% 5% 7% 1% 9,50% 1% 1% Algeria 0% 0% 0% 0% 13% 35% 50% Oran (ALG) 0% 0% 0% 1% 10,80% 27,40% 50% Morocco 0% 0% 0% 0% 3,80% 4% 2,40% 0% 85,50% 0% Sicilly 3% 1% 1% 4,50% 30% 5,50% 30,50% 0% 17,50% 6% 1% Sardinia 0% 37% 0% 0% 22% 14,10% 12,50% 0% 10% 1,50% 2% Andaluzia 0% 9,50% 0% 3,50% 58,50% 3% 12,50% 0% 10% 3% 0% Gallaecia 3% 2,50% 1,50% 0% 63% 3% 4,50% 0% 22% 0,50% 0% Tunisia 1% of I 1% 4,50% 3,50% 30% 0% 52% 4% 0%

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    Pliny stated that the vandals where an east-germanic tribe made up of burgundians and goths. Strabo and ptolemy did not mention any named tribe called vandals.

    The lugii could not be the vandals because the land they covered would have been enoromous. Plus, prior to the Marcomannic wars there existed no germanic tribe called vandals.

    Also, the Lugiii was a collective name for these combined tribes, Harii, Helveconae, Manimi, Helisii and Naharvali, with these names why was the vandali not included if they where Lugii

    In my opinion the vandals was the remainder of many tribes that forged a union

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    They could be conected with Przeworsk culture , which maybe belonged to Lugii tribe confederacion , which lidering clans were probably Celtic ( Lug -Celtic god )

    Lugii as well could be Slavs. In Slavic languages word “lug” means a field and so the tribe name Lugii could mean people that live in fields(lug). We know other names of Slavic tribes that were constructed the same way: the name of Slavic tribe Polyane derived from word “pole”(eng. field) means people living in fields, Drevlyane derived from word “drevo” (eng. tree) means people living in forests. By the way there’s a Slavic spirit of fields (lug) its name is Lugovoi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    Lugii as well could be Slavs. In Slavic languages word “lug” means a field and so the tribe name Lugii could mean people that live in fields(lug). We know other names of Slavic tribes that were constructed the same way: the name of Slavic tribe Polyane derived from word “pole”(eng. field) means people living in fields, Drevlyane derived from word “drevo” (eng. tree) means people living in forests. By the way there’s a Slavic spirit of fields (lug) its name is Lugovoi.
    What in my opinion speaks against this is the fact that Ptolemy also records Celtic town names in the area of the Lugii. I think that a good case can be made that the Lugii were indeed originally Celtic or Celtic-influenced. You also have tribes with similar-sounding names elsewhere: the Lugi in Britain, and the Luggones in Gallaecia.

    I mean, yeah, just by itself a Slavic etymology of "Lugii" would seem plausible, but what point would Ptolemy have to give them Celtic town names?

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    @Bodin

    Ptolemy only had vandalic for the Montes Vandalic which was the modern Harz mountains. The ancient ribes around this mountain was Batini, Elysii, Hermunduri and the Corconti.

    As for the vandal being Venedi, well the venedi had disappeared ( around 200AD ) by the time the vandals showed up. The venedi where conquered along with the gepids, rugii and Aestii by the goths and changed name to Vidivarii ( on the baltic sea)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidivarii

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    What in my opinion speaks against this is the fact that Ptolemy also records Celtic town names in the area of the Lugii. I think that a good case can be made that the Lugii were indeed originally Celtic or Celtic-influenced. You also have tribes with similar-sounding names elsewhere: the Lugi in Britain, and the Luggones in Gallaecia.

    I mean, yeah, just by itself a Slavic etymology of "Lugii" would seem plausible, but what point would Ptolemy have to give them Celtic town names?
    It's hard to believe that Lugii were Celts since the basin of Oder and Vistula rivers is not a place where we can expect to see Celtic people. Furthermore, the Przeworsk culture associated with Lugii is not Celtic it is most likely proto-Slavic/Germanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    It's hard to believe that Lugii were Celts since the basin of Oder and Vistula rivers is not a place where we can expect to see Celtic people. Furthermore, the Przeworsk culture associated with Lugii is not Celtic it is most likely proto-Slavic/Germanic.
    Why is it so hard to believe? And also, why do you mean that one would not expect Celtic peoples there. If you go to the south from the area (upper Oder area), you get into Bohemia, which was one of the core areas of the Hallstatt Culture, and the Celtic Boii lived in that area until they were subjugated by the Germanic Marcomanni in the 1st century BC. There were also the Cotini in modern-day Slovakia (who Tacitus explicitly mentions as "Gaulish") which persisted even longer (into approximately 2nd/3rd century AD). Therefore I don't see why one would not expect some peripherial Celtic influence in Silesia? Also, like I said, Ptolemy recorded the town names. What else would "Lugidunum" and "Carrodunum" be if not Celtic? If you don't believe me, take a look into Ptolemy's Geography, and the chapter on Germania Magna.

    There is, by the way, speculation that the modern-day town of Legnica in Poland is actually at the site of Lugidunum, and that the name "Legnica" derives from it.

    Regarding the Przeworsk Culture, I agree that it's most likely (East) Germanic. The issue is also the names of the individuial Lugian tribes carry overtly Germanic names. But I think it's reasonable to assume that an earlier Celtic influence exist.

    Another aspect that should be mentioned is the fact that the deity Lugus was indeed worshipped across the Celtic-speaking world, and that the practice to have tribal names similar to deity names is a practice also not unheard of (another example would be the "Brigantes" and the goddess "Brigantia"). There is also, potential genetic evidence for this, because there is unusually much R1b-U152 in Poland. Maciamo has suggested that Polish U152 mainly comes from the German expansion in the medieval ages, but I think that it may have been in the area as early as the Lusatian Culture (which was an offshot of the Urnfield Culture, which seems to have been the main carrier for U152). Having said this, I am very careful regarding the ethnic interpretation of the Lusatian Culture: it clearly wasn't Proto-Germanic for sure (way too early for that!), but it doesn't seem to properly fit anywhere else in, either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Pliny stated that the vandals where an east-germanic tribe made up of burgundians and goths. Strabo and ptolemy did not mention any named tribe called vandals.

    The lugii could not be the vandals because the land they covered would have been enoromous. Plus, prior to the Marcomannic wars there existed no germanic tribe called vandals.

    Also, the Lugiii was a collective name for these combined tribes, Harii, Helveconae, Manimi, Helisii and Naharvali, with these names why was the vandali not included if they where Lugii

    In my opinion the vandals was the remainder of many tribes that forged a union
    So in Lugi there was Harii and real name of Vandal tribe Hasdingi is Aria , this is common IE name , so it could be coincidence but not necesary
    I know that Vandals couldnt be all of Lugii , but could they be one part of they confederation?
    Which tribes would you sugest as ones that formed Vandal union?
    Thanks for answering

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    Lugii as well could be Slavs. In Slavic languages word “lug” means a field and so the tribe name Lugii could mean people that live in fields(lug). We know other names of Slavic tribes that were constructed the same way: the name of Slavic tribe Polyane derived from word “pole”(eng. field) means people living in fields, Drevlyane derived from word “drevo” (eng. tree) means people living in forests. By the way there’s a Slavic spirit of fields (lug) its name is Lugovoi.
    Doesnt lug meaning small forest ( forest next to house , which was used for cuting woods for worming house over winter , like family forest it also had some magic meaning )? Drevlyani are very interesting because they name had same meaning like name of Tervingi -Gothic tribe - forest peoples , like names Alans and Greitungi has same meaning - People from steppes. So it is common to name nations by place where they live. I pointed that it would be very dificult that Slavs lived so close by Baltic and not have words for sea , boaths ,... and for amber.But Vandals maybe carried some R1a - Balts , Celtic and Germans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    So in Lugi there was Harii and real name of Vandal tribe Hasdingi is Aria , this is common IE name , so it could be coincidence but not necesary
    I know that Vandals couldnt be all of Lugii , but could they be one part of they confederation?
    Which tribes would you sugest as ones that formed Vandal union?
    Thanks for answering
    Ptolemy mentions three tribes as part of the Lugian confederation, the Buri, the Diduni and the Omani. Tacitus also mentions the Buri, but does not mention them as part of the Lugii, neither does he mention the other two tribes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    It's hard to believe that Lugii were Celts since the basin of Oder and Vistula rivers is not a place where we can expect to see Celtic people. Furthermore, the Przeworsk culture associated with Lugii is not Celtic it is most likely proto-Slavic/Germanic.
    What do you mean we cant expect to se Celts around Odra and Visla ( Oder and Vistula ) , there was Celts in Czech and Slovakia and they are just south from these aerias

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Why is it so hard to believe? And also, why do you mean that one would not expect Celtic peoples there. If you go to the south from the area (upper Oder area), you get into Bohemia, which was one of the core areas of the Hallstatt Culture, and the Celtic Boii lived in that area until they were subjugated by the Germanic Marcomanni in the 1st century BC. There were also the Cotini in modern-day Slovakia (who Tacitus explicitly mentions as "Gaulish") which persisted even longer (into approximately 2nd/3rd century AD). Therefore I don't see why one would not expect some peripherial Celtic influence in Silesia? Also, like I said, Ptolemy recorded the town names. What else would "Lugidunum" and "Carrodunum" be if not Celtic? If you don't believe me, take a look into Ptolemy's Geography, and the chapter on Germania Magna.

    There is, by the way, speculation that the modern-day town of Legnica in Poland is actually at the site of Lugidunum, and that the name "Legnica" derives from it.

    Regarding the Przeworsk Culture, I agree that it's most likely (East) Germanic. The issue is also the names of the individuial Lugian tribes carry overtly Germanic names. But I think it's reasonable to assume that an earlier Celtic influence exist.

    Another aspect that should be mentioned is the fact that the deity Lugus was indeed worshipped across the Celtic-speaking world, and that the practice to have tribal names similar to deity names is a practice also not unheard of (another example would be the "Brigantes" and the goddess "Brigantia"). There is also, potential genetic evidence for this, because there is unusually much R1b-U152 in Poland. Maciamo has suggested that Polish U152 mainly comes from the German expansion in the medieval ages, but I think that it may have been in the area as early as the Lusatian Culture (which was an offshot of the Urnfield Culture, which seems to have been the main carrier for U152). Having said this, I am very careful regarding the ethnic interpretation of the Lusatian Culture: it clearly wasn't Proto-Germanic for sure (way too early for that!), but it doesn't seem to properly fit anywhere else in, either.
    About naming nations by gods , Vandals could also get name by deity - Venus =Freija , or by group of gods Vani , like Alanic tribe Asii could get name by gods Asi , it is also meaning east , but in some Icelandic edas Votan is coming from the east ( where sun is borned )

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    The problem is that we don’t know the real names of these cities and we have all reasons to presume that Ptolemy corrupted the real names of these cities to make them sound latinized or celtized.
    The Przeworsl culture is not East Germanic it is mostly proto-Slavic with East Germanic admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    The problem is that we don’t know the real names of these cities and we have all reasons to presume that Ptolemy corrupted the real names of these cities to make them sound latinized or celtized.
    Honestly, I don't see why Ptolemy would celticize names. I agree that the name is certainly corrupted (if the original town names were Celtic, then it would have been "Carrodunon" and "Lugidunon"), but I don't see how and why a Greek cartographer would Celticize Germanic (or Slavic, for that matter) names.

    Sorry, I really find it a lot more plausible to assume that they were Celtic or Celtic-influenced than to assume that they were Proto-Slavic and their town names were Celticized for no apparent reason.

    The Przeworsl culture is not East Germanic it is mostly proto-Slavic with East Germanic admixture.
    Sorry, I disagree. There is no (unambiguous) Slavic evidence in the area in Antiquity. If there were Proto-Slavs there before the East Germanic peoples arrived, we would see Proto-Slavic borrowings into the Gothic language, something for which there is no evidence. The Proto-Slavs, without a doubt, did probably live quite a bit farther to the east in Antiquity.

    I think it's clear that the East Germanic peoples were a relatively recent admixture, but I don't think that there were Proto-Slavic peoples (or otherwise speakers of Satem languages) in that area before they arrived.
    Last edited by Taranis; 28-08-11 at 15:32.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Honestly, I don't see why Ptolemy would celticize names. I agree that the name is certainly corrupted (if the original town names were Celtic, then it would have been "Carrodunon" and "Lugidunon"), but I don't see how and why a Greek cartographer would Celticize Germanic (or Slavic, for that matter) names.
    Ptolemy never visited these cities so that he should find out about them from some other people. The Celts lived to the South from Lugii (Vandals) and of no doubts they could know about these cities and called them in their own celtisized way. Thus it’s reasonable to presume that Ptolemy found out about these cities from Celtic traders(mercenaries) and that’s why Ptolemy gave them celtisized names.

    The burials associated with the Przeworsk culture are predominantly typical Slavic and only a few of them are typical Germanic. So that we can make a conclusion that Lugii were predominantly proto-Slavs(Slavs) with some East Germanic admixture.


    Sorry, I disagree. There is no (unambiguous) Slavic evidence in the area in Antiquity. If there were Proto-Slavs there before the East Germanic peoples arrived, we would see Proto-Slavic borrowings into the Gothic language, something for which there is no evidence. The Proto-Slavs, without a doubt, did probably live quite a bit farther to the east in Antiquity.

    I think it's clear that the East Germanic peoples were a relatively recent admixture, but I don't think that there were Proto-Slavic peoples (or otherwise speakers of Satem languages) in that area before they arrived.[/QUOTE]

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    Ptolemy never visited these cities so that he should find out about them from some other people. The Celts lived to the South from Lugii (Vandals) and of no doubts they could know about these cities and called them in their own celtisized way. Thus it’s reasonable to presume that Ptolemy found out about these cities from Celtic traders(mercenaries) and that’s why Ptolemy gave them celtisized names.
    That is very unlikely. You have to consider the timing here: by the time that Ptolemy wrote his geography (2nd century AD), Celtic presence north of the Danube was rather vestigial as Germanic tribes had already migrated as far south as the Danube (bear in mind that the Marcomanni invaded Bohemia in the 1st century BC). Conversely, Roman presence extended towards the Danube. Yes, it is true that Celtic tribes lived south of the Lugii, but for the greater part, this was in earlier times. The only reason why there should be Celtic names recorded is really that there is an underlying Celtic substrate in an area that became recently Germanic.

    The burials associated with the Przeworsk culture are predominantly typical Slavic and only a few of them are typical Germanic. So that we can make a conclusion that Lugii were predominantly proto-Slavs(Slavs) with some East Germanic admixture
    Could you explain to me what exactly is "typically Slavic" about these burying rites? I would also like to point out that you seem to make a wrong assumption regarding "typical Germanic". Of course the East Germanic peoples were distinct from the other Germanic peoples. This is very clear if you look at the Gothic language: the East Germanic languages were the most divergent branch of Germanic.

    Also, I would like to reiterate that if Proto-Slavic was spoken in the area before, we should see Proto-Slavic borrowings into the Gothic language (ie, words that obey to Proto-Slavic sound laws but do not obey to Germanic sound laws). There is no evidence of this.

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    @Taranis

    I see your knowledge from history is very wide and deep. I also agree with you Slavs didn't inhabit today's Poland (and other West Slavic countries) in antiquity. I think I read somewhere that children in Polish schools are taught precisely that version of history.

    I have a question for you - do you have an opinion WHERE FROM did West Slavs come to their lands, that is - what is the original homeland of West Slavs.

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    Taranis, let's try another approach. Let’s assume that Vandals were Germanic people then we should expect to see traces of Germanic people (I1 and U106) in the regions where they settled. We know that Vandals had kingdoms in South Spain (Andalusia) and in North Africa so we should find I1 and U106 at these regions. According to Maciamo’s maps for I1 and U106 these hypos don’t present in these regions. Why?
    Now let’s assume that Vandals were proto-Slavic people (R1a and I2a). If we look at Maciamo’s maps for I2a and R1a we can find presence of I2a and R1a both in South Spain and in North Africa. So we can make a conclusion that Vandals were most likely I2a and R1a people that match more the idea that Vandals were proto-Slavic people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    @Taranis

    I see your knowledge from history is very wide and deep. I also agree with you Slavs didn't inhabit today's Poland (and other West Slavic countries) in antiquity. I think I read somewhere that children in Polish schools are taught precisely that version of history.
    Thank you, I try my best.

    Yes, I heard this before. It seems kind of weird and a tad hard to believe, but I partially think that this has to do with Poland's troubled relationship with Germany. On the other hand, neither the medieval Germans who settled on the area of what is today Poland nor the modern-day Germans have all that much to do with the East Germanics, or with the inhabitants who were in the area before them.

    I have a question for you - do you have an opinion WHERE FROM did West Slavs come to their lands, that is - what is the original homeland of West Slavs.
    Let me say this: the question should be where did the Slavs as whole come from as a whole? A tough question, and truth be told I haven't formulated a satisfying answer yet for myself. One issue should be considered, however: the difference between the various branches of Slavic may have come into existence from the underlying substrates - in the case of the West Slavic languages, this would have been the Germanic languages. This doesn't seem too unlikely considering the (East) Germanic peoples probably didn't wholly migrate out of their previous areas during the Migration Period, and the remaining population became Slavicized subsequently. Consider this: at the start of the Medieval Ages, Slavic tribes inhabited not only modern-day Poland, but as far west as along the lower Elbe (areas previously inhabited by the Langobards and the Suebi) and even in the eastern parts of what is today Schleswig-Holstein.

    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    Taranis, let's try another approach. Let’s assume that Vandals were Germanic people then we should expect to see traces of Germanic people (I1 and U106) in the regions where they settled. We know that Vandals had kingdoms in South Spain (Andalusia) and in North Africa so we should find I1 and U106 at these regions. According to Maciamo’s maps for I1 and U106 these hypos don’t present in these regions. Why?
    Actually, with the Germanic peoples you can expect an admixture of U106, I1, I2b and R1a. And well,, there is I1 on the Iberian penninsula. You are right about U106, but I will get to that later...

    Now let’s assume that Vandals were proto-Slavic people (R1a and I2a). If we look at Maciamo’s maps for I2a and R1a we can find presence of I2a and R1a both in South Spain and in North Africa. So we can make a conclusion that Vandals were most likely I2a and R1a people that match more the idea that Vandals were proto-Slavic people.
    Truth be told, I find the idea that R1a is Slavic or Proto-Slavic quite a bit of a misconception. R1a is known to have been in Europe since the Copper Age (a time which predates the emergence of Proto-Slavic by a very long time!), and it's distributed in rather high concentrations in a large number of areas, for instance Scandinavia, the Baltics, Greece and even Finland, which obviously speaks a non-Indo-European language.

    Regarding Iberian R1a, this topic came up in the past on several occasions and I have actually come to the conclusion that Germanic influence can not (wholly) explain Iberian R1a, specifically because one the highest concentrations of R1a are actually in Cantrabria, a region which should probably have the least Germanic influence in Iberia. You have a similar case in France in the Auvergne, which has also the highest concentrations of R1a in France, which should equally have amongst the least Germanic influence in France. This is why I think that there is a small Celtic component to R1a as well, which matches the expansions of Hallstatt/La-Tene from Central Europe into these areas.

    Now, back to Iberia, there is also higher R1a concentrations in Valencia / eastern Andalusia, but they don't match Gothic settlements either, and I personally suspect they are more likely of Greek/Roman in origin.

    Regarding I2a, you seem to be unaware of the fact that most I2a on the Balkans and in Eastern Europe is part of the subclade I2a2, wheras virtually all Iberian I2a is actually part of the subclade I2a1, which appears to be indigenous (well, at least native since Neolithic times) to Western Europe and has the highest concentrations in Sardinia and amongst the Basques.

    Also, to conclude, you must ask yourself something else: how likely is it that the Vandals left a decisive genetic impact in modern-day Tunisia? Not very big. First off, their kingdom in North Africa was rather short-lived and lasted only about a century before being destroyed by the Byzantines. Secondly, a massive pandemic depopulated the Mediterranean only after a decade after that war (the Plague of Justinian), and third, about a century later, the Umayyad Caliphate invaded North Africa and destroyed Carthage, the former capital city of the Vandals, which is why Tunis, which is even today the capital city of Tunisia, became the administrative center of the region. As a result, most Vandal men, or their descendants, would have been killed in one way or another.
    Last edited by Taranis; 28-08-11 at 20:58. Reason: more thoughts...

  21. #21
    Regular Member Bodin's Avatar
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    Typical Slavic burrials are ones with no artefacts , and with burning of dead ones. Przeworsk culture use cremation but with rich artefacts and some time inhumation ( like Germans).
    About land of origins of Slavs :
    In attempt to localise the linguistic Urheimat, linguists have employed place names, especially hydronyms, as indirect evidence. According to one interpretation of the onomastic evidence, the most ancient recognizably Slavic hydronyms are to be found in northern and western Ukraine and southern Belarus. In fact, proto-Slavic has very well-developed terminology for inland bodies of water (lakes, river, swamps), as well as the flora and fauna indigenous to the temperate forest zone. In contrast, inherited Common Slavic vocabulary does not include detailed terminology for physical surface features peculiar of the mountains or the steppe, nor any relating to the sea, to coastal features, littoral flora or fauna, or salt water fishes.[17] Therefore, supporters of this line of reasoning view this area as the Urheimat of the Slavs.[5] Others, adopting a different methodology, note that the Common Slavic words for beech, larch and yew were foreign (Germanic) in origin, whilst that for hornbeam was native. Hence they argued that the original Slavic homeland was devoid of beech, larch and yew, but was plentiful in hornbeam. On the basis of the modern distribution of those trees (and assuming geo-botanical stability over the past two thousand years), some believe the Slavic urheimat was within the Pripet marshes, in Polesie.[18]
    Although linguists cannot agree exactly where it first developed, the evidence shows that proto-Slavic remained archaic for over a millennium, suggesting that it developed in a relatively confined region and was spoken by a relatively compact body of peoples. Its spread has been dated to have begun in the 4th century, evidenced by increasing dialectical divergence and the acquisition of Germanic and Sarmatian loanwords
    And Przeworsk was betwen Odra , Vistula , Tisa and Dniester
    Przeworks culture was disapear in IV century during Hunic invasions , and one century later( V century) it has been replased by Prague- Korchak culture , that is clearly Slavic . New culture Iron work was more primitive then Przeworsk , so there is posibility that aeria was completly empty for some time before ariving of Slavs ( there is also archeological void in that time ).
    Why Vandals would have to be Germanic R1b ( U106 ) , couldnt they be Celtic R1b ( U152/ S28 or even L21/S116) ? Or if they realy old like Tacitus say maybe G2a?

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    But nobody actually give me an answer on question which haplogroups would Vandals carry with them ?

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    Recently I read , that the Vandals where originally from modern Holstein just above the Venedi of mecklenburg. they where forced to migrate and went to the satring area of the oder, while the venedi travelled along the coast.

    Whatever DNA that the angles, cimbri, saxons and holstein frisians are , I guess that is waht the vandals are, because they are from bascially the same starting area

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    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
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    Recently I read , that the Vandals where originally from modern Holstein just above the Venedi of mecklenburg. they where forced to migrate and went to the starting area of the oder, while the venedi travelled along the coast.

    Whatever DNA that the angles, cimbri, saxons and holstein frisians are , I guess that is waht the vandals are, because they are from bascially the same starting area

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    Regular Member Bodin's Avatar
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    I also remember I readed something like that . So it would be biger percent of R1b -U106 with lower percents of I1 and I2b , with some of haplogroups they encountered in aeria around Vistula when they get there - some more R1b and maybe some Baltic R1a.

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