Research about R1b-U152: probably Roman (and italic) origin, not Gallic

Really you think? seems more like ignoring my question (only had one).
Didnt really read alot about the Genoese Republic in Phokaia in your wikipedia links. maybe i missed it maybe i didnt.

Therefor i still think its poss. that R1b S28 (U152) spread to Phokaia with the Genoese and Lombards having the times of their lives when Phokaia was a Genoese colony in the middle ages.

as for Marseille

Henry Malden - History of Rome (1830)
"Pliny held the Sallyi, Deceates, and Oxybii, tribes upon the coast, to be Ligurians. Strabo is more cautious; and informs us that later writers called the Salyes, who extended along the coast a little further than Massalia (Marseilles), Celto-Ligyes (that is, Gallo-Ligurians), from the intermixture of the Gaulish population; but that the earlier Greeks called them Ligyes, and the country which the Massaliots occupied, Ligystic or Ligurian; and assigned to them [Ligurians]"
"This agrees with the account of Scylax, who makes the Rhone the limit of the pure Ligurians."

So its pretty established that Marseille (Massilia) was a Greek Colony in Ligurian territory (also your wiki link confirms that); But what about it?

There are actually two questions in your sentence and without question marks:

"As for Phocaea,
wasnt Phocaea a Genoese colony (for ~100 years) in the middle ages, and couldnt it therefor be that it was the Genoese and Lombards [North Italians (largely employed as mercenaries by the Genoese)] that brought the R1b-U152 to Phocaea."

I see what you are saying about a possible back migration of U-152 into Smyrna and Phocaea. Are you also saying that the Roy J. King, etc study is wrong in their results, conclusions, and methods of study in regards to the R1b in Marsailles?:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068964/?tool=pubmed
The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean

"On the other hand, E-V13 appears to have originated in Greece or the southern Balkans [13,14] and then spread to Sicily at high frequencies with the Greek colonization of the island. E-V13 is also found at low frequencies on the Anatolian mainland [13] and thus may be useful in teasing apart the relative contributions of Greek colonization (E-V13) from Early Neolithic colonization (J2) to Western Europe. In this report, a sampling of individuals whose ancestry traces to the Ionian Greek city of Phokaia will be compared through Y-chromosome genotyping to samples from the Aeolian/Ionian city of Smyrna and a set of samples from Provence. These data will reveal genetic patterning characteristic of 1) the Ionian foundation of Phokaia versus the Aeolian/Ionian foundation of Smyrna. 2) the relative Y chromosome contributions of Phokaian Greeks and local Anatolian/Neolithic and/or central Anatolian populations in these two Asia Minor Greek city-states and 3) the contribution of Greek and/or Neolithic Y-chromosomes to the demographic pattern of Provence."
 
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There are actually two questions in your sentence and without question marks:

"As for Phocaea,
wasnt Phocaea a Genoese colony (for ~100 years) in the middle ages, and couldnt it therefor be that it was the Genoese and Lombards [North Italians (largely employed as mercenaries by the Genoese)] that brought the R1b-U152 to Phocaea."

Na it was really just one question regarding the Republic of Genoa. And i dont think i ever argued (used the word) Back Migration of U152. When linking Genoa to Phocaea.

Are you also saying that the Roy J. King, etc study is wrong in their results, conclusions, and methods of study in regards to the R1b in Marsailles?:

Definitely No. Im not saying this at all. I even consider King et al 2011 one of the most important and insightful studies of the last few years. Great study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068964/?tool=pubmed

But have you actually read it?
I can understand what confuses you:

The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%) respectfully.

Those are the modern-day results; and the study (Roy J King) makes it clear that it considers E-V13 to be the Greek marker and not R1b-M269, which the study (Roy J King) considers a Neolithic marker.

the data showed a 12% Greek component and an 18% Neolithic component to eastern Provence, while attesting a 19% Greek component and a 0% Neolithic component to western Provence. This does not exclude other sources of early Neolithic demographic episodes to Provence such as the radiation of R1b-269 sub lineages [15].

So Neolithic and Greek are put at contrast to each other.

Estimates of colonial Greek vs. indigenous Celto-Ligurian demography predict a maximum of a 10% Greek contribution, suggesting a Greek male elite-dominant input into the Iron Age Provence population.

So the study (Roy J King) is missing the clear passage where it links R1b-S28 (or M269 in total) with the Greeks and its distribution in the Provence with the Greek Colonizers, in fact the study (Roy J King) is writing the complete opposite; that R1b-M269 lineages in Provence are Celto-Ligurian and from a Neolithic source.

Brings us back to the original question (singular), what influence did the Genoese and Lombards (28-32% R1b-S28 Busby et al 2011 / descendants of the ancient Umbro-Ligurians in Po Valley) had in Phocaea in the middle ages.
And im not talking about (also now based on King et al 2011) a migration back, im talking about a first emergence during the middle ages and many marry medieval feasts concerning Lombards, Genoese and Greek women.
 
Na it was really just one question regarding the Republic of Genoa. And i dont think i ever argued (used the word) Back Migration of U152. When linking Genoa to Phocaea.



Definitely No. Im not saying this at all. I even consider King et al 2011 one of the most important and insightful studies of the last few years. Great study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068964/?tool=pubmed

But have you actually read it?
I can understand what confuses you:

The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%) respectfully.

Those are the modern-day results; and the study (Roy J King) makes it clear that it considers E-V13 to be the Greek marker and not R1b-M269, which the study (Roy J King) considers a Neolithic marker.

the data showed a 12% Greek component and an 18% Neolithic component to eastern Provence, while attesting a 19% Greek component and a 0% Neolithic component to western Provence. This does not exclude other sources of early Neolithic demographic episodes to Provence such as the radiation of R1b-269 sub lineages [15].

So Neolithic and Greek are put at contrast to each other.

Estimates of colonial Greek vs. indigenous Celto-Ligurian demography predict a maximum of a 10% Greek contribution, suggesting a Greek male elite-dominant input into the Iron Age Provence population.

So the study (Roy J King) is missing the clear passage where it links R1b-S28 (or M269 in total) with the Greeks and its distribution in the Provence with the Greek Colonizers, in fact the study (Roy J King) is writing the complete opposite; that R1b-M269 lineages in Provence are Celto-Ligurian and from a Neolithic source.

Brings us back to the original question (singular), what influence did the Genoese and Lombards (28-32% R1b-S28 Busby et al 2011 / descendants of the ancient Umbro-Ligurians in Po Valley) had in Phocaea in the middle ages.
And im not talking about (also now based on King et al 2011) a migration back, im talking about a first emergence during the middle ages and many marry medieval feasts concerning Lombards, Genoese and Greek women.


map below is by Italian Historians on the lands of the ligures - approx 1800BC




Età NEO-ENEOLITICA o prima età del RAME (Tra il 3.000 e 1.800 a.C.)
I LIGURI-IBERI sono stanziati stabilmente anche nella pianura padana (ritrovamento dei primi oggetti in Rame), diffondendo la loro cultura e organizzazione sociale.


Per quanto riguarda la lingua parlata da queste popolazioni, molti storici asseriscono che fosse il "Leponzio", originario delle genti stanziate vicino alle Alpi (da cui il nome di Alpi Lepontine), che si mischierà con il "Gallico" ed il "Celtico-Ispano" formando il "Proto-Celtico", idiomi derivanti probabilmente da una unica radice fonica già preesistente alcuni secoli prima dell'arrivo delle popolazioni Etrusche e centro-italiche.
Non dobbiamo poi dimenticarci del sopraggiungere di nuove genti provenienti da località più distanti, come l'Asia Minore o il Nord Africa, verso questi territori, che appunto dopo fine della glaciazione, diventavano più temperati e perciò più popolabili.


 
Yes, I have read the study and I have been in contact with Roy King electronically. Thanks for your input on his study. The reason I am interested in it is this comparison I have found on Genebase:

Curtis Pigman's Y-DNA STR markers were compared to the following 2 populations:
PopulationContinentCategorySize (N)
Smyrna, GreeceEuropeIndigenous45
Phocaea, GreeceEuropeIndigenous26
Appendix 4: Raw Comparison Results
The results of this comparison are based on the following raw analysis data:
Matches at a Genetic Distance of 0:
Population Set# MatchesPopulation SizeMatch %
Smyrna, Greece3456.67%
Matches at a Genetic Distance of 1:
Population Set# MatchesPopulation SizeMatch %
Smyrna, Greece114524.44%
Phocaea, Greece42615.38%
Matches at a Genetic Distance of 2:
Population Set# MatchesPopulation SizeMatch %
Phocaea, Greece32611.54%
Smyrna, Greece1452.22%
Matches at a Genetic Distance of 3:
Population Set# MatchesPopulation SizeMatch %
Smyrna, Greece2454.44%
Phocaea, Greece1263.85%
Matches at a Genetic Distance of 4:
Population Set# MatchesPopulation SizeMatch %
Smyrna, Greece3456.67%
Phocaea, Greece1263.85%


I know that is not ideal as they only have 7 markers with which I can compare, however, it is very interesting!

As far as your question:

"Brings us back to the original question (singular), what influence did the Genoese and Lombards (28-32% R1b-S28 Busby et al 2011 / descendants of the ancient Umbro-Ligurians in Po Valley) had in Phocaea in the middle ages."

I wish I could answer that question for you but I am afraid I do not know the answer. Perhaps you could request a grant as Roy King did and do a study for a peer review paper of your own.

Regards,
Curtis Pigman/Pigmon (French - Pigmon and Greek Πυγμή - Pygmon)
 
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As far as I'm concerned, this is a very controversial topic. Many people claim that the U-152 subclade is characteristically "Italic", having originated among these ancient "Ligures" of northern Italy and subsequently spread from there. To me, all the evidence supporting this theory and the theory itself are nonsense. What would explain the fact that, on the other side of the alps, in Switzerland the "Sankt Gallen" nation or sanctuary of the Gauls, 1 out of 2 men on a national level are R1b R-S28? An area inhabited by the Gaulish Helvetii tribes and other such Celtic people's. what explains the 20% R-S28 across France with frequencies between 15-20% but a 18-20% national average? Migration from north Italy into Switzerland/France? Doubt it, seems the other way around to me, as historical source after historical source suggests. How many tribes do we know of, Gaul tribes that migrated into Italy that we know their exact names? Senones, Lingones, Cenomani, carni/carnutes, Bellovesus and his bituriges Cubi, the Aedui AND Arverni along with their Ambarri subordinates, Gallia Cisalpina region, the golasecca....GAULS. The Insubres of the Lombardy region whom where named after a canton/district of their long-forgotten ancestors the Aedui Gauls.....I can state so much evidence for franco-Swiss migrations to Italy but really, how much more do you need before putting this "Ligures" theory to rest? Senones of north-east France; senones of Marche, Italy. Lingones of north-east France; Lingones of Emilia-Romagna. They where celts, Marne/Loire/Moselle river celts. La tene Gauls. All of them. Every single last one of them and their u152 brothers.
 
To me, R-S28 originated somewhere either in north-eastern France directly just under the Belgian border or somewhere hugging extreme east France from under Belgium to almost right in the part of eastern france bordering Switzerland, but no more to the south or north or west than those regions. Or maybe within central Switzerland itself.
 
Being a little dubious about the Genoese origins I set out to come up with a better comparison than my 7 marker perfect match with Phocaea. I found the tables on Roy King's study of the 37 markers from Phocaea and Smyrna they used in their study. Doing this by hand is a bit tedious because I had to rearrange the DYS assignments to his order and also because I have a 44 marker test with Genebase and a 67 marker test with FTDNA I had to use both to match up with the Sorenson study they used. The required conversions were also done with some of the allells.

There were 36 markers I could match and the result was a GD of 9. At 3 generations per GD 27 x 25 years per generation comes to 675 years ago. 2013 - 675 = 1338. I looked up Phocaea around 1338(well close for my rough calculations) and found that it was under the control of:

Benedetto I Zaccaria (c. 1235 – 1307) was an Italian admiral of the Republic of Genoa. He was the Lord of Phocaea (from 1288) and first Lord of Chios (from 1304), and the founder of Zaccaria fortunes in Byzantine and Latin Greece. He was, at different stages in his life, a diplomat, adventurer, mercenary, and statesman.

Already by then a successful merchant, Benedetto first appeared as a Genoese ambassador to the Byzantine court in 1264. This was in response to Michael VIII's alliance with the Republic of Venice.[1] After eleven years of negotiations which resulted in a renewed accord between the Empire and Genoa, Benedetto first appeared in Constantinople with his brother Manuele (Manel) in 1275, at imperial invitation. It was then that he was first appointed administrator of the mines of Phocaea. He built a plantation there, from which he traded with a number of Mediterranean and Asian cities, accumulating considerable wealth. In 1282, still in the emperor's service, he acted as an ambassador to Peter III of Aragon, counselling him to continue the war with Angevins over Sicily.
Benedetto returned to Genoa in 1284 and was made an admiral. He was the principal commander of the Genoese fleet which defeated Pisa at the Battle of Meloria. He commanded a fleet of twenty galleys, separate from the main Genoese fleet and initially hidden from sight. His surprise attack led to a decisive Genoese victory and the permanent decline of Pisa's military and mercantile power.
He participated alongside the Castilians under Sancho IV in a victorious campaign against Morocco. At about the same time, he served Philip IV of France as an admiral, blocking the English and Flemish ports.
Before the Ottoman Turks and the Venetians, the Byzantine emperor Andronicus II Palaeologus appealed for his aid. In 1296, the Venetian admiral Ruggero Morosini razed Phocaea.
In 1302, Zaccaria was named admiral by Philip of France, in which capacity he conquered the island of Chios (1304), which had thitherto been in the hands of Moslem corsairs. At first, he gave the government of the isle over to his nephew Tedisio. In 1304, he also occupied Samos and Cos, which were almost completely depopulated, and the emperor conceded him sovereignty over those islands and Chios for two years, under Byzantine suzerainty. It is from this date that Benedetto is accounted Lord of Chios and begins his career as a statesman and ruler. In 1306, Tedisio occupied Thasos, then a refuge of Greek pirates.


So very well could be Genoese!
 
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Southern England on the "English channel coast" has about 15-20% R1b u152, it arrived there surely from the u152 loaded continental belgic tribes that moved there, you may be an ancient relic of continental franco-Swiss blood to England.
 
I could well be :)

I just hope more Europeans order the Geno.2 chip test. For any interested European parties the test including shipping would cost €167.48, at current exchange rates!


I ordered mine last Saturday it came yesterday swabbed and now on it's way to Texas!!




Southern England on the "English channel coast" has about 15-20% R1b u152, it arrived there surely from the u152 loaded continental belgic tribes that moved there, you may be an ancient relic of continental franco-Swiss blood to England.
 
You could visualize a Frankish (Southwest Germanic) a Bohemian (Southeast Germanic) a Roman (Italic) and a Gallic component. Each community was influenced by its particular environment helping it to develop separately.:wary2:

This is an interesting point that works in regard to south-east Britain. For example there is some thought (which i seriously consider credible) that the 'Jutes' were one and the same as Frankish tribes from the Rhine area (lower Rhine i believe), as R1b-U152 is somewhat high in these areas it is not at odds at that, and also fits in better with Belgic Gaulish settlement in south-east Britain at an earlier date and later Frankish connections between far south-east England (Kent in particular) and Frankish areas.
 
Hello, im R1b L2.
I would like to know a deeper subclade. Can any of you suggest how to find that out?
My family is one of the oldest in Trasmiera, Cantabria. There is a legend that we came from the area of “Borgoña”. I think even before the Romans invaded Cantabria.
Thank you!
 

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