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Thread: Lombard DNA in Italy

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Indeed, that's early Neolithic; by the mid-Neolithic in Central Europe the levels had gone down. I wonder where the Lombards picked it up?

    The other interesting thing is the extremely low levels of mtDna "U" (WGH/EHG U5 and U4 clades): 3 mtDna U4, and one U*.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Where to begin?

    1. @Dorianfinder: Your premise is faulty. I doubt we will ever know what is "Lombard DNA."

    For this fool's errand itself, I blame the charlatans during the early days of DNA who tried to sell people on the notion that one haplogroup or another is a "Viking" (or whatever) marker.

    That can only occur in relatively isolated places where you can show beyond a doubt that the haplogroup in question did not exist before, or when aDNA shows it, or when you are talking about a subclade with extraordinary specificity. None of these apply here.

    ALL people by the dawn of recorded history were already significantly admixed. In fact, to assume otherwise is in direct conflict with many of the majoritarian theories here. By c. 5500 BC, Europe was already a melting pot of different Hgs. Certainly by 1000 BC. See http://snplogic.blogspot.com/2015/04...cient-dna.html

    In other words, it is false to assume that because our knowledge of a people's name and movements (i.e., recorded history) begins at a certain moment (i.e., during Greco-Roman times for most of Western Europe), that the people who stepped on the stage at that time (e.g., the Lombards) were atoms (pure essences). Europeans were all molecules (carrying many different strains) by this time. There is no one Lombard signature.

    2. @Taranis. The same applies for Etruscan. There is no way to say it was predominantly one Hg or another. They were a mosaic. On Etruscans generally, see http://snplogic.blogspot.com/2014/02...logic-not.html

    3. @Zanipolo. Define "aboriginal." In an area that is as well-traversed as Europe and Italy, do you mean the Neandertals? Archaic Modern Humans? Cro-Magnons? I'm a bit of an expert on pre-Roman Italic tribes, so I can tell you anything you might want to know about the conjecture on who was there first, in what region. It is mostly conjecture, with a smidge of archaeology, linguistics, and as of yet, no real DNA proof.

    4. @Vallicanus and others. While I dug the foray into prosopography, the study of names and surnames, a large part of prosopography, is helpful in Italy only before c. 1200 AD. Anything much later, and indeed, the modern distribution means nothing. Surnames, too, mean little, since they affixed in most of Italy only during the Counter-Reformation.

    Names were widespread and adopted by non-native speakers. In other words, after 1200 AD or even 1000 AD, you will find Roman Italians with names like "Gandolfini" (originally Norman), Rolando (originally Germanic), and the descendants of Germanics with names like Giulio, Sergio, Antonio, Valerio, etc., which are traditional Roman names. Tread carefully with how much you read into names. Angela said this much more eloquently than I could, a different way, on page 7 of this thread.

    I would further note that "Lombard" took on an entirely different meaning in Italy after a couple hundred years had passed. It changed from an ethnonym to a profession: someone trading in jewelry. In the Byzantine provinces, it was slang for any non-Byzantine-ruled Italian, similar to how the word "Frank" changed from an ethnonym to mean, "any European," during the crusades.

    5. @Corinth. Your theory on the origin of the Goths in certainly interesting, but I would note that it goes against almost all of the linguistic evidence, and all the ancient sources. The Goths spoke an East Germanic language, and there is a historical Gotland in South Sweden that bears material affinities with the wandering Goths' culture.

    6. @mihaitzateo. AMEN. Your comments on the problems and northcentrism that gets in the way of explaining Indo-European markers in Southern Europe (aka, 1/2 of IE lands) are well-taken, and explained in detail here. http://dlc.hypotheses.org/807

    7. @Skaheen15. The R1b theory, which has only been fleshed out in the last 1-3 years, is anything but well-accepted, and as for Italy, the recent Remedello finds complicate the simplistic nature of this theory considerably. There are current discussions on this on the haplogroups board.

    8. @Angela. I dispute the extent of the Greek impact in Southern Italy. I believe, as you've posted elsewhere, the extant clines existed before the Bronze Age. Modern makers of online maps often show Magna Grecia as extending inland, for convenience sakes, but the truth of the matter is that Magna Grecia consisted of only coastal cities, always on the ocean. Sadly, many of these cities were completely depopulated and destroyed by Lucani, Bruti, and Romans. The experience of the Greeks in Thurii was typical. Harassed by Italic tribes, it became one of the few Greek cities that DIDN'T fall to the Italic tribes c. 300 BC, but after siding with Carthage, was utterly destroyed, so much so that the Romans had to relocate 3000 Latins there. Despite the Roman settlement, most of these cities were abandoned by the common era. (This is slightly off-topic).






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    @Moore,

    I don't know how much of the ancestry of Italians comes from actual Greek settlement in the first millennium BC versus common ancestry with Greeks from the early Neolithic, the mid-Neolithic, the late Neolithic, or the early Bronze Age, and neither do you or anyone else, as we have absolutely no dna results upon which to ground our speculations.

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    Exactamundo!

    I've made this point repeatedly: the "Greek-LIKE" appearance in certain parts of S. Italy could be the result of gene flow in 4000 BC (pre-ethnic), 400 BC (Ancient Greek colonies), or 400 AD (some rehellenization during Byzantine times).

    I caution folks from assuming 400 BC, simply because we have better records for that period.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    I just wanted to point out that I'm full Italian, born and living in Italy, my family from both sides has always been here. My father's line is from a village called Moscufo, the one I live in. Before doing the DNA test I read a book on the history of this village and found out that it was founded by the Lombards during the Lombard Kingdom of Italy and was originally called Meuskulf. As far as anyone knows in my family, we've always been here, especially my father's line who apparently never moved out of Moscufo. On the test, my Y-DNA turned out to be R-U106, very uncommon in Italy (4% of the population) thus proving that the Lombards carried this haplogroup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cla168 View Post
    I just wanted to point out that I'm full Italian, born and living in Italy, my family from both sides has always been here. My father's line is from a village called Moscufo, the one I live in. Before doing the DNA test I read a book on the history of this village and found out that it was founded by the Lombards during the Lombard Kingdom of Italy and was originally called Meuskulf. As far as anyone knows in my family, we've always been here, especially my father's line who apparently never moved out of Moscufo. On the test, my Y-DNA turned out to be R-U106, very uncommon in Italy (4% of the population) thus proving that the Lombards carried this haplogroup.
    A genealogical research with documents could be useful to know more about your family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cla168 View Post
    I just wanted to point out that I'm full Italian, born and living in Italy, my family from both sides has always been here. My father's line is from a village called Moscufo, the one I live in. Before doing the DNA test I read a book on the history of this village and found out that it was founded by the Lombards during the Lombard Kingdom of Italy and was originally called Meuskulf. As far as anyone knows in my family, we've always been here, especially my father's line who apparently never moved out of Moscufo. On the test, my Y-DNA turned out to be R-U106, very uncommon in Italy (4% of the population) thus proving that the Lombards carried this haplogroup.
    4% of the population isn't something that can be defined as uncommon.

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    ^ Well German themselves are only 19% U106.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennos View Post
    A genealogical research with documents could be useful to know more about your family.
    Unfortunately it's rather hard. On my father's side, they were all peasants. I want to look for censuses and records somewhere, but that wouldn't give me any info on my Lombard origin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    4% of the population isn't something that can be defined as uncommon.
    Well, I didn't say it's rare, but I don't think it's common either. It's probably only surviving in former Lombard duchies and places settled by the Normans, who also carried this haplogroup for a small part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vukodav View Post
    ^ Well German themselves are only 19% U106.
    If 4% isn't uncommon, 19% must be really common, right? Also, it's not properly from Germany, but more from Frisia. U106 has its peek in the Netherlands, with 44% of the people carrying it. I think this also proves that they came from Scandinavia as Diaconus says, and that for a short period of time they followed the Saxons in their migration towards the west, but then turned South-East all the way to Pannonia and then Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cla168 View Post
    Unfortunately it's rather hard. On my father's side, they were all peasants. I want to look for censuses and records somewhere, but that wouldn't give me any info on my Lombard origin.


    Well, I didn't say it's rare, but I don't think it's common either. It's probably only surviving in former Lombard duchies and places settled by the Normans, who also carried this haplogroup for a small part.


    If 4% isn't uncommon, 19% must be really common, right? Also, it's not properly from Germany, but more from Frisia. U106 has its peek in the Netherlands, with 44% of the people carrying it. I think this also proves that they came from Scandinavia as Diaconus says, and that for a short period of time they followed the Saxons in their migration towards the west, but then turned South-East all the way to Pannonia and then Italy.

    What census records? It's all parish records once you get beyond very recent times as Italian history goes. Social status is irrelevant as far as these records are concerned, since everyone was recorded at least back to the time of the Council of Trent. If the records still exist, which they often do because even in the case of the havoc caused by wars the records were deposited in multiple places, you can trace most of your family lines back to that period without terrible difficulty, although you may have to go to lots of parishes, and pore through lots of musty old books and spend a lot of time doing it. How else did Cavalli Sforza get family trees going back to the mid-1500s for very man, woman and child living in the Parma Valley when he did his monumental study on genetics?

    There are some families which claim to be able to trace descent on a few lines back further to perhaps 1100 or so. Indeed, I have a few of those myself, but the records are spotty, usually having to do with a few notarial records, and given the statistical data for NPEs I think it's all highly questionable that any names someone finds are indeed actual ancestors. If there are multiple ydna lines for royal families, why would anyone put any faith in some of these online trees? The claims of some noble Italian families of being able to trace their descent back to Roman senators is just silly, in my opinion. As for the Lombards they were illiterate so no records can possibly exist for individual family lines to these people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cla168 View Post
    Unfortunately it's rather hard. On my father's side, they were all peasants. I want to look for censuses and records somewhere, but that wouldn't give me any info on my Lombard origin.


    Well, I didn't say it's rare, but I don't think it's common either. It's probably only surviving in former Lombard duchies and places settled by the Normans, who also carried this haplogroup for a small part.


    If 4% isn't uncommon, 19% must be really common, right? Also, it's not properly from Germany, but more from Frisia. U106 has its peek in the Netherlands, with 44% of the people carrying it. I think this also proves that they came from Scandinavia as Diaconus says, and that for a short period of time they followed the Saxons in their migration towards the west, but then turned South-East all the way to Pannonia and then Italy.
    A summary of registry rules in Italy

    - All registry records prior to 1804 where done initially in the parish of the town

    - from 1805 to today all marriages must be done in the civil registry before a church wedding ............which is why you get 2 different dates for marriages.
    - Unless a civil marriage is reformed then that marriage does not exist for the Italian government.
    - All women will retain their maiden names and not get the husband surnames..........this was reinforced in the 1970's with even stricter rules.

    so, ask you local civil registry office and they will supply you all records until about 1805 ..........then ask the civil registry which parish holds the records for your family before this and they will advise you........................I recently got all my records in this method 4 months ago ...........and they where quick, inside of a week, scanned to me and later officially mailed in the post.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What census records? It's all parish records once you get beyond very recent times as Italian history goes.
    Indeed, I was taking about the 18th century or something, I don't expect to get records from the Council of Trent times either, since they're really really old. But even if I did, it would be impossible to link these findings to a Lombard ancestry, since as you said they were illiterate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    so, ask you local civil registry office and they will supply you all records until about 1805 ..........then ask the civil registry which parish holds the records for your family before this and they will advise you........................I recently got all my records in this method 4 months ago ...........and they where quick, inside of a week, scanned to me and later officially mailed in the post.
    So you think I should go to my village's town hall to look for my family's 1805-today records?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cla168 View Post


    So you think I should go to my village's town hall to look for my family's 1805-today records?
    go to the comune and they should supply you with your family records , for free..............thats what I did.

    while you are there they can guide you to which parish is most likely your family have the pre 1805 records...............but wait until you get your civil records first as your family maybe was not present where you are now since 1805, maybe they arrived from elsewhere

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    go to the comune and they should supply you with your family records , for free..............thats what I did.

    while you are there they can guide you to which parish is most likely your family have the pre 1805 records...............but wait until you get your civil records first as your family maybe was not present where you are now since 1805, maybe they arrived from elsewhere
    Awesome, thank you. I will do that tomorrow. But yeah, as I said, I'm pretty confident my father's family have always been here. We'll see.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What census records? It's all parish records once you get beyond very recent times as Italian history goes. Social status is irrelevant as far as these records are concerned, since everyone was recorded at least back to the time of the Council of Trent. If the records still exist, which they often do because even in the case of the havoc caused by wars the records were deposited in multiple places, you can trace most of your family lines back to that period without terrible difficulty, although you may have to go to lots of parishes, and pore through lots of musty old books and spend a lot of time doing it. How else did Cavalli Sforza get family trees going back to the mid-1500s for very man, woman and child living in the Parma Valley when he did his monumental study on genetics? There are some families which claim to be able to trace descent on a few lines back further to perhaps 1100 or so. Indeed, I have a few of those myself, but the records are spotty, usually having to do with a few notarial records, and given the statistical data for NPEs I think it's all highly questionable that any names someone finds are indeed actual ancestors. If there are multiple ydna lines for royal families, why would anyone put any faith in some of these online trees? The claims of some noble Italian families of being able to trace their descent back to Roman senators is just silly, in my opinion. As for the Lombards they were illiterate so no records can possibly exist for individual family lines to these people.
    I'm a genealogist and I can say "No, it is nearly impossible to reach the 1100 A.D. for commoners". Only some noble families, and not so clearly, can reach the 1100, but most of them have some holes in their patrilineal lineage. When I was in Italy for school and university, I did research on a family of local adventurers, not noble but very active in politics: I was able to reach 1249, but with a very very hard work (i.e. more than 10 years of research).

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    What about r1a? Do you think that some lombards could carried r1a YDNA(a bit) or it in italy is more gothic related?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    This quote from Taranis made me think whether we may have missed something more recent in Italy's history that could account for high R1b-U152 levels. How certain are we that the Lombards were R1b-U106, HG I?
    R1b u152 Z36 looks as signature of Lombards. It would be interesting to know where else in Euroasia is Z36 strong


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    Quote Originally Posted by howyesno View Post
    R1b u152 Z36 looks as signature of Lombards. It would be interesting to know where else in Euroasia is Z36 strong


    Nope, R1b U152 Z36 is more likely Scamozzina/Canegrate and Golasecca cultures.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Nope, R1b U152 Z36 is more likely Scamozzina/Canegrate and Golasecca cultures.
    That's possible. I certainly can't see it as Lombard with that huge hole in the northeast where the Lombard influence would be particularly strong.

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    Where you catch this map? It is very interessing

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    I think my R-U152 S8183 from Carnia (Italy) could be a good candidate to be related to Lombards. I thought it could be from the Celtic tribe Carni but the S8183 current distribution is too nordic to be Celtic. Let's wait for new data and see.

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    I have been trying to find out information on my Italian (Lombard?) dna and it brought me to this forum. My paternal Italian ancestor's were from Avigliano in Potenza with the surname of Stolfi - which is derived from Aistulf. My haplogroup per 23andme is I-L205.1 (which I believe might relate to the Lombards). I've always wondered about my Italian surname that sounded very German and I think due to my haplogroup and what I am learning about the Lombard's in Italy, I think I am beginning to figure it all out. I'm wondering now if having my brother take a Y-DNA FTDNA test would shed any more light. Any thoughts on what information might be gained by having him take a Y-DNA test and if it might confirm if our DNA is Lombard DNA?

  23. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stolfi1 View Post
    I have been trying to find out information on my Italian (Lombard?) dna and it brought me to this forum. My paternal Italian ancestor's were from Avigliano in Potenza with the surname of Stolfi - which is derived from Aistulf. My haplogroup per 23andme is I-L205.1 (which I believe might relate to the Lombards). I've always wondered about my Italian surname that sounded very German and I think due to my haplogroup and what I am learning about the Lombard's in Italy, I think I am beginning to figure it all out. I'm wondering now if having my brother take a Y-DNA FTDNA test would shed any more light. Any thoughts on what information might be gained by having him take a Y-DNA test and if it might confirm if our DNA is Lombard DNA?
    It looks Lombard, indeed.

    This is the phylogenetic tree created by Maciamo time ago (you can find I-L205.1 two steps below I-L22):


    Notice that the time to most recent common ancestor of I-L205.1 men living today is just 1600 years before present, i.e., ~400 AD:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L205/
    There are British (brought by Anglo-Saxons to UK?) and Norwegian men in YFull, but I assume you would get more info in I1 Project at FTDNA regarding its current distribution. So, it's intuitive to think that this haplogroup arrived "from" North "to" South Italy after 400 AD, which doesn't conflict with the arrival of Lombards in South Italy. On the contrary. So you must be right.

    I-L205.1 has only two subclades so far, and I'd guess 23andMe v5 doesn't test them (just checking the Raw Data to be sure).
    BigY700 helps on the building of the phylogenetic tree. It could place you in some of the existant I-L205.1 branches, but it would be also possible that you belong to a brand new one (and matches could show up in the future, as more men test, either from Italy itself but also from other parts of Europe, perhaps). Keep in mind that the branching after the arrival of Lombards to Italy must be virtually exclusive to... Italy, naturally. We're talking on a little window of time to find haplogroups below I-L205.1 shared between Italians and Central/Northern Europeans.
    Particularly, I'm not sure a very deep test could shed much more light. We already know it was carried by Lombards likely; we know the Lombards arrived in Italy a bit before 600 AD, and the influx of Lombards did not last for long, I'd guess, despite the centuries of dominance.
    So, it depends on your goal, imo. I would not test BigY if it's just to confirm that the Y-DNA is Lombard, because it seems virtually confirmed already imo. Now, if you're really curious about possibly belonging to some existant branch, you could either risk single SNP tests of A1465 (firstly) and A10200 - but take in mind that A10200 has 4 equivalents - at YSEQ or, yes, perform a BigY700, if money is not a problem for you. je je Still assuming 23andMe v5 doesn't test any further. If it tested and you're negative for them, we'd know you belong to a new one just below I-L205.1, perhaps shared with other Europeans, but just time would tell.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Thank you so much! Great information! I think I will do a Y-test with FTDNA and I believe I can always pay more for additional testing if it's needed or wanted at some point. I uploaded the raw data to gedmatch and am just trying to figure out now how to convert my raw data from 23andme to a csv file so I can upload it to a few FTDNA groups, at least until I get a better kit to test with. I'm exciting at the thought that my ancestry can go back to the Lombards, so would love to confirm it with as much accuracy as I possibly can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stolfi1 View Post
    Thank you so much! Great information! I think I will do a Y-test with FTDNA and I believe I can always pay more for additional testing if it's needed or wanted at some point. I uploaded the raw data to gedmatch and am just trying to figure out now how to convert my raw data from 23andme to a csv file so I can upload it to a few FTDNA groups, at least until I get a better kit to test with. I'm exciting at the thought that my ancestry can go back to the Lombards, so would love to confirm it with as much accuracy as I possibly can.
    Do you mean BigY700? After this one, no need of testing further. You could just share your BAM file with YFull and that's it.

    Btw, you can't use 23andMe data in FTDNA Projects. 23andMe doesn't test STRs.
    But you can sign up and join, afaik.

    Here is yours:
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I1dL205

    The Y Chart:
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

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