Lombard DNA in Italy

[torzio]

It looks Lombard, indeed.

This is the phylogenetic tree created by Maciamo time ago (you can find I-L205.1 two steps below I-L22):


Notice that the time to most recent common ancestor of I-L205.1 men living today is just 1600 years before present, i.e., ~400 AD:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L205/
There are British (brought by Anglo-Saxons to UK?) and Norwegian men in YFull, but I assume you would get more info in I1 Project at FTDNA regarding its current distribution. So, it's intuitive to think that this haplogroup arrived "from" North "to" South Italy after 400 AD, which doesn't conflict with the arrival of Lombards in South Italy. On the contrary. So you must be right.

I-L205.1 has only two subclades so far, and I'd guess 23andMe v5 doesn't test them (just checking the Raw Data to be sure).
BigY700 helps on the building of the phylogenetic tree. It could place you in some of the existant I-L205.1 branches, but it would be also possible that you belong to a brand new one (and matches could show up in the future, as more men test, either from Italy itself but also from other parts of Europe, perhaps). Keep in mind that the branching after the arrival of Lombards to Italy must be virtually exclusive to... Italy, naturally. We're talking on a little window of time to find haplogroups below I-L205.1 shared between Italians and Central/Northern Europeans.
Particularly, I'm not sure a very deep test could shed much more light. We already know it was carried by Lombards likely; we know the Lombards arrived in Italy a bit before 600 AD, and the influx of Lombards did not last for long, I'd guess, despite the centuries of dominance.
So, it depends on your goal, imo. I would not test BigY if it's just to confirm that the Y-DNA is Lombard, because it seems virtually confirmed already imo. Now, if you're really curious about possibly belonging to some existant branch, you could either risk single SNP tests of A1465 (firstly) and A10200 - but take in mind that A10200 has 4 equivalents - at YSEQ or, yes, perform a BigY700, if money is not a problem for you. je je Still assuming 23andMe v5 doesn't test any further. If it tested and you're negative for them, we'd know you belong to a new one just below I-L205.1, perhaps shared with other Europeans, but just time would tell.

interesting

my paternal line via my gradmother is I1d1-P109

[Stolfi1]

Thanks Regio X for letting me know that you can't upload raw files from 23andme to the FTDNA groups. You just saved me a lot of aggravation!

[Regio X]

I-L205 structure according to FTDNA; a bit different from YFull, and more "developed":
Attachment 11189

[Stolfi1]

[QUOTE=Regio X;581652]I-L205 structure according to FTDNA; a bit different from YFull, and more "developed":
/QUOTE]

Your link to the attachment doesn't work. At least for me it doesn't work. I can't open it.

[Regio X]

Thanks Regio X for letting me know that you can't upload raw files from 23andme to the FTDNA groups. You just saved me a lot of aggravation!

Dude, so sorry, I just realized that L205 has several equivalents at YFull, so the TMRCA could change. FTDNA puts these SNPs below I-L205, as equivalents of A1463, so it seems I-L205 per se is pretty older.
Then I guess a BigY could help to clarify it, yes.

[Regio X]

Your link to the attachment doesn't work. At least for me it doesn't work. I can't open it.

Strange. Here it opens.

@torzio
Nice. I'm also testing a maternal uncle. Hope the results are ready in few weeks. I'll post them here.
MDKA in male line also from Treviso province, btw.

[Stolfi1]

Dude, so sorry, I just realized that L205 has several equivalents at YFull, so the TMRCA could change. FTDNA puts these SNPs below I-L205, as equivalents of A1463, so it seems I-L205 per se is pretty older.
Then I guess a BigY could help to clarify it, yes.

I'm not used to be called, Dude! :) But I am definitely going to get the Y700 kit to test further. This is all too interesting - I have to test further!

[Regio X]

@torzio
Nice. I'm also testing a maternal uncle. Hope the results are ready in few weeks. I'll post them here.
MDKA in male line also from Treviso province, btw.

Y12 ready: R-M269. Based on relatively few matches and also on his origin, R-U152 and R-U106 seem more likely. We"ll see.

[Duarte]

Y12 ready: R-M269. Based on relatively few matches and also on his origin, R-U152 and R-U106 seem more likely. We"ll see.

Dear friend @Regio X.
Today the results of my latest DNA test was available: "MyHeritage Health + Ancestry" (according to the company's new algorithm, I'm much more Italian than I supposed but, on the other hand, I'm much more Iberian too, LOL). As I had predicted before, much more Y SNPs were tested than in the first test I had done at the same company.
As can be seen below, from the spreadsheet with the new raw data provided by the company, I found that my deepest Y-DNA is R1b-S47. I am homozygous "T" for R1b-S47.
Now is to wait for the FTDNA's "Big Y-700" and "mtDNA Full Sequecence" results to definitely confirm my Y-DNA haplogroup and my mtDNA haplogroup.
Thank you for all the attention and guidance that you have provided me. His knowledge of the subject and his advice were crucial for me to decide on the tests.

[italouruguayan]

My paternal grandfather was born in Veneto and the family is of far Lombard origin (Bergamo). Being my Y-DNA R1b U106 L44 L163-, I guess the most likely origin is Longobard, for a matter of probability. Does anyone know if there is currently any way to differentiate it from other Germanic peoples?

[Regio X]

Dear friend @Regio X.
Today the results of my latest DNA test was available: "MyHeritage Health + Ancestry" (according to the company's new algorithm, I'm much more Italian than I supposed but, on the other hand, I'm much more Iberian too, LOL). As I had predicted before, much more Y SNPs were tested than in the first test I had done at the same company.
As can be seen below, from the spreadsheet with the new raw data provided by the company, I found that my deepest Y-DNA is R1b-S47. I am homozygous "T" for R1b-S47.
Now is to wait for the FTDNA's "Big Y-700" and "mtDNA Full Sequecence" results to definitely confirm my Y-DNA haplogroup and my mtDNA haplogroup.
Thank you for all the attention and guidance that you have provided me. His knowledge of the subject and his advice were crucial for me to decide on the tests.

@Fellow Duarte
How cool! A Roman soldier - my "cousin" G-L42 - as the closest ancient match and now a supposed "Italic" Y-DNA (according to Maciamo): R-Z56. You're basically a Roman living fossil. Lol https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1b_Y-DNA.shtml
Yeah, I know it's not that simple. :) So, kidding apart, I'm glad you figured out your main clade in anticipation. Let's see where FTDNA/YFull/ISOGG will place you exactly after BigY, and what connections can be made. Looking forward to knowing the results.

No need to thanks. I just told you abt. the ancestral/derived alleles; you did the rest. And yep, you seem indeed S47+.
My bet is that my uncle will be R-L2, but we know results are not always "logical", so to speak. The natural guess for you, for example, was R-DF27, but you're R-U152 after all. :)

As for the admixture, there is too much variation between different companies.
The same way Iberians get SE European % in FTDNA, some Italians get Iberian %, as myself: 18%. Also 44% of SE Europe, 19% of British Isles, 10% of East Europe, 6% of Scandinavia, and the rest is Ashkenazi. I suppose my non-SE European DNA is shared ancestry, including the Iberian %, 'cause I'm not aware of migrations from Iberia to N. Italy in recent times. However, in MyHeritage, using FTDNA Raw Data, I get 49.9% of Italian and 0% of Iberian. The rest is 5.1% of Greek/S. Italian, 30.9% of Irish/Scotish/Welsh and 14.1% Balkan. Non-Italian % must be mostly shared ancestry as well. I'm certainly not 30% Irish etc. Indeed, I'm scoring now 0% of NW European in 23andMe Ancestry Composition, which seems the best when it comes to admixture, imo. Here I'm scoring 86.5% of Italian after the last update.

Cheers

@italouruguayan
Yes, it's intuitive to think of Lombards as a main source of R-U106 in N. Italy.

[italouruguayan]

Thank you ,Regio X!

[Duarte]

My paternal grandfather was born in Veneto and the family is of far Lombard origin (Bergamo). Being my Y-DNA R1b U106 L44 L163-, I guess the most likely origin is Longobard, for a matter of probability. Does anyone know if there is currently any way to differentiate it from other Germanic peoples?

@Fellow Duarte
How cool! A Roman soldier - my "cousin" G-L42 - as the closest ancient match and now a supposed "Italic" Y-DNA (according to Maciamo): R-Z56. You're basically a Roman living fossil. Lol https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1b_Y-DNA.shtml
Yeah, I know it's not that simple. :) So, kidding apart, I'm glad you figured out your main clade in anticipation. Let's see where FTDNA/YFull/ISOGG will place you exactly after BigY, and what connections can be made. Looking forward to knowing the results.

No need to thanks. I just told you abt. the ancestral/derived alleles; you did the rest. And yep, you seem indeed S47+.
My bet is that my uncle will be R-L2, but we know results are not always "logical", so to speak. The natural guess for you, for example, was R-DF27, but you're R-U152 after all. :)

As for the admixture, there is too much variation between different companies.
The same way Iberians get SE European % in FTDNA, some Italians get Iberian %, as myself: 18%. Also 44% of SE Europe, 19% of British Isles, 10% of East Europe, 6% of Scandinavia, and the rest is Ashkenazi. I suppose my non-SE European DNA is shared ancestry, including the Iberian %, 'cause I'm not aware of migrations from Iberia to N. Italy in recent times. However, in MyHeritage, using FTDNA Raw Data, I get 49.9% of Italian and 0% of Iberian. The rest is 5.1% of Greek/S. Italian, 30.9% of Irish/Scotish/Welsh and 14.1% Balkan. Non-Italian % must be mostly shared ancestry as well. I'm certainly not 30% Irish etc. Indeed, I'm scoring now 0% of NW European in 23andMe Ancestry Composition, which seems the best when it comes to admixture, imo. Here I'm scoring 86.5% of Italian after the last update.

Cheers

@italouruguayan
Yes, it's intuitive to think of Lombards as a main source of R-U106 in N. Italy.

Thank you very much Regio, great hug, Italo. Cheers to both :)

[HYGILI4K]

Nice thread!


My male line if from Rovigo, Italy and my Y-DNA is R1b-df99 (kinda rare within the P312 group). Until now, as far as I know, the only ancient sample with this haplogroup is CL-94, from Amorim's study. The problem is that CL-94 had a mixed ancestry, roughly 1/3 CEU+GBR + 1/3 Tuscan and 1/3 Iberian (compared with data from 1000 genomes). According to analisys, he wasn't local to Collegno, but because of his autosomal background, I think it's hard to draw any conclusions about his origins (either germanic, italic or any other). He could be even from another part of Italy.

[Duarte]

Dear @Regio X.
It should be noted how shallow the results of the Y-67 FTDNA are. Good thing I ordered the Big Y-700. As I had already purchased the Y-67 before, the results came out yesterday indicating R-M269. Where is the novelty? When I was still a simple spermatozoon in a desperate search for an ovule to fertilize I already knew that, LOL:



The strangest thing is that the final subclade predicted by the "Y-DNA Haplogroup Predictor - NEVGEN", based on the FTDNA's "Short Tandem Repeats - STR" offers logical subclasses for my specicific case, no doubt, but that differs from those that I had found based on the "MyHeritage Data Raw" SNPs: NVGEN says I have a 77% chance of being R1b DF27> ZZ12> FGC20747:



Now I can only wait the Big Y-700 to give the final verdict. Until then there will be the doubt about which really is my deepest Y subclade .


Big hug :)

[Regio X]

Dear @Regio X.
It should be noted how shallow the results of the Y-67 FTDNA are. Good thing I ordered the Big Y-700. As I had already purchased the Y-67 before, the results came out yesterday indicating R-M269. Where is the novelty? When I was still a simple spermatozoon in a desperate search for an ovule to fertilize I already knew that, LOL:

The strangest thing is that the final subclade predicted by the "Y-DNA Haplogroup Predictor - NEVGEN", based on the FTDNA's "Short Tandem Repeats - STR" offers logical subclasses for my specicific case, no doubt, but that differs from those that I had found based on the "MyHeritage Data Raw" SNPs: NVGEN says I have a 77% chance of being R1b DF27> ZZ12> FGC20747:

Now I can only wait the Big Y-700 to give the final verdict. Until then there will be the doubt about which really is my deepest Y subclade .
Big hug :)

Hi, Duarte.
Thanks for the update. I sent you more details in private, but tell me... This new test at MyHeritage also includes the SNPs DF27, U152, Z56 (or equivalent) and/or Z43? If so, what are your results for them?

[Regio X]

Hi, Duarte.
Thanks for the update. I sent you a private message with mote details, but tell me... This new test at MyHeritage also includes the SNPs DF27, U152, Z56 (or equivalent) and/or Z43? If so, what are your results for them?

You just told me in private. So U152-. Well, that changes things. Belonging to R-S47, as we know it today, would imply being positive for a set of related SNPs - not just for S47 itself -, including U152.