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Thread: Lombard DNA in Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    No. By "pre-Etruscan" I meant "arrived before the Etruscans".

    Specifically, the Etruscan language is unlikely to be originally native to Italy because of it's similarities with the Anatolian languages. Let me elaborate this: obviously Etruscan was a fundamentally non-Indo-European language, whereas the Anatolian family obviously was Indo-European, but the point is that there are some other features which suggest areal proximity towards the Anatolian languages.

    Another issue is that there is no evidence for Etruscan being spoken outside of the area of Etruscan rule, in particular not in southern Italy.

    To get back to the original thread topic:

    In addition to R1b-U106, other Y-Haplogroups in Italy of likely Lombardic (or at least otherwise Germanic) origin are I1 and I2b:

    I1
    Northern Italy - 6%
    Central Italy - 3%
    Suthern Italy - 2.5%

    I2b
    Northern Italy - 2.5%
    Central Italy - 5.0%
    Southern Italy - 2.5%

    There's also the possibility that some R1a in Italy might be Germanic, but given the distribution of R1a in Italy, it's likely most Italian R1a is either actually natively Italic (as in, from the Proto-Italic peoples, the most likely source) or Greek.
    Concerning the Etruscan language, any correlates with other languages that may be linked to J1?

    I2b distribution appears to have been introduced via the East Adriatic coast. Yes, I can definitely see Germanic origins for R1b-U106. I1 in Italy I believe has two main sources, the North Sicily I1 suggests Norse origins however most Italian I1 has a similar distribution to Greece.

    I1 can be found throughout Greece at 2% suggesting that the even distribution throughout Italy also may be of an earlier introduction. Greek Macedonia has 7% I1 where Greek R1a is concentrated, these two haplogroups could be considered typical of the Greek Macedonians.

    The R1a in Italy does appear to be in the Italo-Greek population with some recent Balkan Slavic R1a as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Concerning the Etruscan language, any correlates with other languages that may be linked to J1?
    Not really. It would be helpful if there was a reliable map of just J1c3d alone. I think we would start to see a similar phenomenon as with R1b. For instance, I know that there are a lot of concentrations of J1c3d in southern Italy and especially Sicily, mirroring Arabic influence in Sicily.

    I2b distribution appears to have been introduced via the East Adriatic coast. Yes, I can definitely see Germanic origins for R1b-U106. I1 in Italy I believe has two main sources, the North Sicily I1 suggests Norse origins however most Italian I1 has a similar distribution to Greece.

    I1 can be found throughout Greece at 2% suggesting that the even distribution throughout Italy also may be of an earlier introduction. Greek Macedonia has 7% I1 where Greek R1a is concentrated, these two haplogroups could be considered typical of the Greek Macedonians.
    Regarding I1, the most likely source for I1 is a single Mesolithic male lineage that by pure coincident survived the Neolithic/Chalcolithic in Scandinavia. As a result, I1 has become associated with the Germanic (and to a lesser degree, Finnic) peoples and expanded outwards with later migrations. However, I have my doubts that I1 couldn't have arrived in other parts of Europe before the migrations period, and it might already have been in Central Europe in small concentrations by the Bronze Age. The reason I came to think about this is because Germanic influence doesn't quite explain the concentrations of I1 we see for instance in Ireland, and I would argue that you can apply the same argument for Greece.

    The R1a in Italy does appear to be in the Italo-Greek population with some recent Balkan Slavic R1a as well.
    I just said that I don't exclude that some Italian R1a could be Germanic. Given the concentrations of R1a in northern Germany. I agree however that an Italic or Greek origin is more likely.

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    Everyone seems to neglect the Raetians in all of this, what was there haplogroup, did they not have some influence in northern italy, did they not bring the gallic-celts into italy.
    Question needs to be asked is - the mixture of people between the ligurians ( natives of Italy) and the gallic of the alps must have produced something in the 1000 years.

    p312 is now quoted as being Italic instead of iberic. what is the fallout for this in regards to R1B?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    However, I have my doubts that I1 couldn't have arrived in other parts of Europe before the migrations period, and it might already have been in Central Europe in small concentrations by the Bronze Age. The reason I came to think about this is because Germanic influence doesn't quite explain the concentrations of I1 we see for instance in Ireland, and I would argue that you can apply the same argument for Greece.
    I tend to agree with the age estimates by Dienekes regarding a possible Bronze Age introduction of I1 into the Southern Balkans. I believe Italy may share some of this Bronze Age I1.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07...s-comment.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I just said that I don't exclude that some Italian R1a could be Germanic. Given the concentrations of R1a in northern Germany. I agree however that an Italic or Greek origin is more likely.
    Two 1000 genome Z93+ samples of R1a were discovered in a Spaniard and a Tuscan man. This Z93+ is a new SNP that appears to have spread from the southeast region of the Kyrgyz plains. We need more European R1a tests for the Z93 marker though. Interestingly, Balkan R1a M458- samples have all been Z93- so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Everyone seems to neglect the Raetians in all of this, what was there haplogroup, did they not have some influence in northern italy, did they not bring the gallic-celts into italy.
    Question needs to be asked is - the mixture of people between the ligurians ( natives of Italy) and the gallic of the alps must have produced something in the 1000 years.

    p312 is now quoted as being Italic instead of iberic. what is the fallout for this in regards to R1B?
    The Raeti are definitely pre-Lombard. I have posted this in the Veneti thread but I will repeat myself as a courtesy to you. Archaeological evidence confirms early historical sources that state the Raeti were of Etruscan descent.

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    The frequency off I1 and I2b in Italy is not necessarily linked to a Germanic presence, many Sardinians belong to haplogroup I, and some of them, in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, were literally "bought" by the various Italian states for thickening populations of some depressed areas, is therefore likely that many of these stem from the Sardinians in Italy. Anyway I haplogroup is also common in earlier times to the coming of the Indo-Europeans, so it is very likely that only a small part of the frequency of I in Italy belongs to the Germans.

    I should add that in Italy to find a Nordic characters is very difficult, the biondismo (blonde hair), although reasonably common, is associated with anthropological mediterranean, or whataver indo-european, characteristics (shape of the face, skin color etc. ..).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Etrusco-romano View Post
    The frequency off I1 and I2b in Italy is not necessarily linked to a Germanic presence, many Sardinians belong to haplogroup I, and some of them, in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, were literally "bought" by the various Italian states for thickening populations of some depressed areas, is therefore likely that many of these stem from the Sardinians in Italy. Anyway I haplogroup is also common in earlier times to the coming of the Indo-Europeans, so it is very likely that only a small part of the frequency of I in Italy belongs to the Germans.

    I should add that in Italy to find a Nordic characters is very difficult, the biondismo (blonde hair), although reasonably common, is associated with anthropological mediterranean, or whataver indo-european, characteristics (shape of the face, skin color etc. ..).
    Yes, it is true that Sardinians have a lot of Haplogroup I. However, you are ignoring the specific subclade of Haplogroup I: Sardinian I is almost exclusively I2a1 (which is indeed very likely native, at least since Neolithic times), and not I1 or I2b. As far as I know, there is virtually no I1 or I2b in Sardinia.

    I think it is absolutely certain that I1 and I2b in Italy is not of Sardinian origin. It is indeed most likely to be Germanic (or otherwise from Europe north of the Alps).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Demographics of Italy:
    1460 - 4 500 000
    1675 - 12 500 000
    1861 - 22 200 000
    1901 - 33 000 000
    1961 - 50 000 000
    2010 - 60 500 000

    Where do you get a population of 8 million in 6th century Italy?

    The population of Italy before the Lombards was probably not more that between 400 000 and 600 000.
    your numbers are in error, in 1450 there where 13 Million italians, second to france with 16 million, german/ies 11 million , Castile 4 million, aragon 1.5 million
    duchy of Milan had 2.2 million
    Rep. of venice had 2.1 Million ( 400,000) was colonies in the adriatic -dalmatians, venetians and greeks ) , so figure would be 1.7 million
    K. of Nalpes 2.0 million
    etc etc for others

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    The Raeti are definitely pre-Lombard. I have posted this in the Veneti thread but I will repeat myself as a courtesy to you. Archaeological evidence confirms early historical sources that state the Raeti were of Etruscan descent.
    where do you get this from?

    If you are correct, then when did these raetians become gallic-celts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    where do you get this from?

    If you are correct, then when did these raetians become gallic-celts?
    The Raetians were not a unified ethnic group. Many of the Raetic tribes were clearly Celtic and Ligurian (from their tribal names, at least), but the language recorded in the "Raetian" inscriptions is similar to Etruscan. So, the situation is confusing. There is also the annecdote (I think by Livy or Pliny, but I'm not sure) that claims that the Raetians are the descendants of Etruscans that fled into the Alps when the Gauls invaded northern Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    The Raeti are definitely pre-Lombard. I have posted this in the Veneti thread but I will repeat myself as a courtesy to you. Archaeological evidence confirms early historical sources that state the Raeti were of Etruscan descent.
    Linguistics similarities does not represent the same race,

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...page&q&f=false

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The Raetians were not a unified ethnic group. Many of the Raetic tribes were clearly Celtic and Ligurian (from their tribal names, at least), but the language recorded in the "Raetian" inscriptions is similar to Etruscan. So, the situation is confusing. There is also the annecdote (I think by Livy or Pliny, but I'm not sure) that claims that the Raetians are the descendants of Etruscans that fled into the Alps when the Gauls invaded northern Italy.
    this story of livy only represents 5% of raetian tribes. The raetian in acient times dominated the alps from helvetica to trieste

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    your numbers are in error, in 1450 there where 13 Million italians, second to france with 16 million, german/ies 11 million , Castile 4 million, aragon 1.5 million
    duchy of Milan had 2.2 million
    Rep. of venice had 2.1 Million ( 400,000) was colonies in the adriatic -dalmatians, venetians and greeks ) , so figure would be 1.7 million
    K. of Nalpes 2.0 million
    etc etc for others
    Good numbers, do you take these?

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    @ Leonardo & Sile

    Anybody is welcome to start a thread about the demographics of Italy in the History forum. It is not very relevant to this thread. Thank-you

    @ Sile

    The Raeti are not relevant as they were already well documented before the Lombard invasion of Italy. If they were Celtic then it would have been confirmed long ago as much is written about them as the Valley dwellers of the Veneto, who fled to the mountains when the Celts arrived.

    Nobody claims the Raeti were unified or homogeneous ... they just don't appear to be R1b-U152.

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    I'd like to reiterate that unlike I2a1, which is very likely to be native to Italy, I1 and I2b are not, and are good candidates to have arrived with the Langobards, or are otherwise Germanic in origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I'd like to reiterate that unlike I2a1, which is very likely to be native to Italy, I1 and I2b are not, and are good candidates to have arrived with the Langobards, or are otherwise Germanic in origin.
    Italy has 2.5% I1 on average. If we consider that its distribution is evenly distributed across the Balkans, Italy and southern Europe, I would say that it is not a local distribution of Lombard origin.

    The higher levels of I1 in Italy are found exclusively along the Northern coast of Sicily where the Norman invasions of Italy and later the Swabian dynasty in Italy had their colony. History tells us that the Lombard league were anti-Imperialist and had struck a deal with the papacy during this period. The Normans and Lombards did not see eye-to-eye and many people fled the intrusions of the Guelphs in Liguria and Piacenzo to settle in Lentini, Palermo and other parts of Sicily.

    I believe a small Lombard contribution of I1 was deposited in the North however. This increase in I1 is however mirrored by an increase, quite significant if I may say so, of R1b-U152 in Italy.

    Concerning I2b in Italy, it's distribution in the Balkans also appears to mirror Bronze Age I1. Suggesting an already established presence. The Germanic-Celtic theory regarding I2b does not stand on a strong footing when we glance at I2b frequencies throughout Europe.

    On the other hand though, the I1 link to the Viking-Normans appears more likely.

    To summarize:
    I1 in Italy dates in part from the earliest inhabitants, to Bronze Age introductions of I1, to the Lombard invasion, and finally the Normans. All this for an average of not more than 2.5%.

    I2b in Italy dates to the earliest inhabitants, to Bronze Age introductions of I2b and possibly some diffusion from Central Greece and the Aegean islands (ancient cultures).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Italy has 2.5% I1 on average. If we consider that its distribution is evenly distributed across the Balkans, Italy and southern Europe, I would say that it is not a local distribution of Lombard origin.

    The higher levels of I1 in Italy are found exclusively along the Northern coast of Sicily where the Norman invasions of Italy and later the Swabian dynasty in Italy had their colony. History tells us that the Lombard league were anti-Imperialist and had struck a deal with the papacy during this period. The Normans and Lombards did not see eye-to-eye and many people fled the intrusions of the Guelphs in Liguria and Piacenzo to settle in Lentini, Palermo and other parts of Sicily.

    Concerning I2b in Italy, it's distribution in the Balkans also appears to mirror I1. Suggesting an already established presence. The Germanic-Celtic theory regarding I2b does not stand on a strong footing when we glance at I2b frequencies throughout Europe.

    On the other hand though, the I1 link to the Viking-Normans appears more likely.
    Why should I1 be of Viking/Norman origin but not Lombard origin? After all, I1 is 6% in northern Italy.

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    @ Taranis

    I edited my post and added the following, sorry for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    I believe a small Lombard contribution of I1 was deposited in the North however. This increase in I1 is however mirrored by an increase, quite significant if I may say so, of R1b-U152 in Italy.

    Concerning I2b in Italy, it's distribution in the Balkans also appears to mirror Bronze Age I1. Suggesting an already established presence. The Germanic-Celtic theory regarding I2b does not stand on a strong footing when we glance at I2b frequencies throughout Europe.

    On the other hand though, the I1 link to the Viking-Normans appears more likely.

    To summarize:
    I1 in Italy dates in part from the earliest inhabitants, to Bronze Age introductions of I1, to the Lombard invasion, and finally the Normans. All this for an average of not more than 2.5%.

    I2b in Italy dates to the earliest inhabitants, to Bronze Age introductions of I2b and possibly some diffusion from Central Greece and the Aegean islands (ancient cultures).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Etrusco-romano View Post
    Good numbers, do you take these?
    book is , the meditteraen by fernand Braudel , volumes 1 and 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    book is , the meditteraen by fernand Braudel , volumes 1 and 2
    The discussion about the population of Italy is here http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...635#post379635

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    The discussion about the population of Italy is here http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...635#post379635
    Thanks, next time do not raise the issue and I will not respond to your population comments

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I'd like to reiterate that unlike I2a1, which is very likely to be native to Italy, I1 and I2b are not, and are good candidates to have arrived with the Langobards, or are otherwise Germanic in origin.
    Although I believe any I2a1 to have come during the 6th century as minor in relation to the U152 ... it is possible now that I think of it that the Gothic War 535-554 may have resulted in some I2a1 moving into Italy. The Byzantine infantry traveled along the Dalmatian coast before entering Italy which could have been a regular trade route of the Romans, bringing some typical Slavic I2a1b1 into Northeastern Italy.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Although I believe any I2a1 to have come during the 6th century as minor in relation to the U152 ... it is possible now that I think of it that the Gothic War 535-554 may have resulted in some I2a1 moving into Italy. The Byzantine infantry traveled along the Dalmatian coast before entering Italy which could have been a regular trade route of the Romans, bringing some typical Slavic I2a1b1 into Northeastern Italy.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Gotenkrieg.png
    Are you sure that you're not talking about I2a2? I was talking about I2a1 (the variety most abundant to Sardinia and the Basque country, which is also found in small concentrations in Italy as well as much of Western Europe).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Are you sure that you're not talking about I2a2? I was talking about I2a1 (the variety most abundant to Sardinia and the Basque country, which is also found in small concentrations in Italy as well as much of Western Europe).
    You are absolutely right, I meant I2a2 with regards to the South Slavs and I2a1b1 for Northeastern Italians. What is the connection between Basque I2a1 and Northeast Italian I2a1b1?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    You are absolutely right, I meant I2a2 with regards to the South Slavs and I2a1b1 for Northeastern Italians. What is the connection between Basque I2a1 and Northeast Italian I2a1b1?
    KN noted in June 2011, that the extreme border of the basque I2a1 is Venice.


    Basically, Italy as i was told has only a few "aboriginal" tribes. In the north the Ligurians, east central the Umbrians, the south are the Sabians and the sicels in sicily. All the rest are foreign
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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