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Thread: Lombard DNA in Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    There is hardly any u-152 in scania and northern Germany. Besides how long did they take to migrate
    Lomardic homeland is EASTERN germanic, not north german.. The claim that they were scandinavian belies the fact that what we have of them is not a Northern Germanic language. The home origin we have for the Lombards is in the modern Carpathian Mountains,
    and any legends about scandinavia or north germany are not provable beyond fables.

    Given that the modern genetic centre of U-152 at its highest levels is the goth and later lombardic eastern germanic mass settlements of North Italy, Lombardy and Corsica, its not supportable to make a assumption that the Goth/Lombardic presence is not the reason why there is a hugely elevated presence of U-152 in these places in modern times.

    Its not the only possible explanation, but its the one you really have to disprove with some ancient genetic dna results before you can eliminate it and move onto something else.

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    The Langobardi (Lombards) were living along the river Elbe, this pinpoints them better then any other geographical placename. Linguistically its nearest surviving relative like Bavarian dialect, belongs to the western Germanic languages. So it seems its population core was not of Eastern Germanic origin at all. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/GermanenAD50.png

    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbgermanen

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    germanic tribes.jpg

    Lombards belong to the VINDILI linguistic tribes ( Vandals ) and are East-Germanic
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Based on what article?

    To be quiet honest your map you are using is a bit undecipherable. They were not living along the Vistula/Weichsel or Oder, like the Goths and Vandals in what is now Poland.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Empire_125.png

    They might have been on the move or came across some Vandals and Goths yes, but they were not of eastern Germanic origin when they were on the move from their western Germanic part of the world.
    The map I posted earlier combines archaeological knowledge with historical accounts. The only thing we know for sure is that they lived along the Elbe and that they were closely related to the Suebi.

    Even this article says it is close to Old Saxon, which is undoubtedly a western Germanic language.

    Therefore they were speaking a Elbe Germanic/Irminones language. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbe_Germanic

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    I'm tempted to agree wirh Christiaan if it's proved that the Longobards cradle was in the Elbe area, then: eastern part of the west germanic ancient dialect - but I believe it's a little distorted seeing the modern germanic (tyrolian bavarian) languages of present day North Italy as a direct evolution of ancient longobardic - all the ancient dialect of germanic present in the South an evolution that could be due to a substrate, maybe a rhetic one - for vowels the S-W (alemanic) differ from the S-E but for consonnants they seam have followed the same way, irrespective of previous northern or north-eastern origins - the survival of germanic in North Italy seams more the result of Austria or switzerland proximity than a longobardic survival, from a linguistic and culturel point of view - it would be interesting having the thoughts of specialist of the old longobard (I'm not and so I can easily do misjudgments!)
    Last edited by MOESAN; 30-01-12 at 21:57. Reason: precise

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Lombards belong to the VINDILI linguistic tribes ( Vandals ) and are East-Germanic
    Strabo (book 7, cp. 1.3) Tacitus (cp. 40) and Ptolemy (book 2, cp. 10) place the Langobards amongst the Suebi, and the latter two mention them in the same context as the Semnones. However, what little is known of the Langobardic language shows, as others mentioned before, that it was indeed a (south-) west germanic language that fully executed the second germanic sound shift, and was thus related with Bavarian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I'm tempted to agree wirh Christiaan if it's proved that the Longobards cradle was in the Elbe area, then: eastern part of the west germanic ancient dialect - but I believe it's a little distorted seeing the modern germanic (tyrolian bavarian) languages of present day North Italy as a direct evolution of ancient longobardic - all the ancient dialect of germanic present in the South an evolution that could be due to a substrate, maybe a rhetic one - for vowels the S-W (alemanic) differ from the S-E but for consonnants they seam have followed the same way, irrespective of previous northern or north-eastern origins - the survival of germanic in North Italy seams more the result of Austria or switzerland proximity than a longobardic survival, from a linguistic and culturel point of view - it would be interesting having the thoughts of specialist of the old longobard (I'm not and so I can easily do misjudgments!)
    I agree.

    The surviving traces of Longobard vocabulary are quite slight but we know hundreds of Longobard personal names.

    The closest links are with Bavarian, a High German language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Strabo (book 7, cp. 1.3) Tacitus (cp. 40) and Ptolemy (book 2, cp. 10) place the Langobards amongst the Suebi, and the latter two mention them in the same context as the Semnones. However, what little is known of the Langobardic language shows, as others mentioned before, that it was indeed a (south-) west germanic language that fully executed the second germanic sound shift, and was thus related with Bavarian.
    ?
    the only reference I found that the longobards are not east-germanic is in this wiki site
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germanic_tribes

    its says that tradionally they where east-germanic

    Vindili branch below
    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...ermans&f=false

    But then then Longobards where originally from scandinavia and where called the VINILI
    when they migrated to germany they changed name to Longobards.
    They inhabited the Vindili linguistic area , but could in there migrations changed there linguistic traits to the swabian, bavarian, alemannic tree

    Pliny the elder says also they where east-germanic from the VINDILI linguistic branch

    See Christie, Neil. The Lombards: The Ancient Longobards

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    The Langobardi (Lombards) were living along the river Elbe, this pinpoints them better then any other geographical placename. Linguistically its nearest surviving relative like Bavarian dialect, belongs to the western Germanic languages. So it seems its population core was not of Eastern Germanic origin at all.
    By the time we have concrete coordinates for the tribal population called lombards/langobards who move later into the north Italian settlements, they are living in the Carpathian Mountains in what would be today eastern Romania and western Ukraine.
    What additions or substitutions they ethnically consist of at this point, during which they spend about 40 years as vassals to Huns, is impossible to say.
    All the gothic and/or eastern germanic populations at this point have cooperated and conflicted with western germanic tribal populations that they have allied and fought with, sometimes both with the same tribes.

    Its fully possible (but also speculation) that prior to this interaction the dialect of the Goths or Lombards could be eastern gothic / eastern germanic- which is pitifully documented because it is a destroyed and dispersed population- and that Western Germanic is later adopted as they rise to a level of a european power, **at least in its written form**, since this western germanic prevails in their new 'adopted' western homeland in Europe. The written forms may also be entirely the product of LITERATE western germanic speakers in their employ.

    The underlying issue though is that no one has any sample of Gothic-cultural Y-results or Lombardic DNA, and while I would not suggest a automatic assumption that U-152 being such a large anomaly in their eventual adopted home region is the product of these eastern germanic populations,

    I also see no valid reason not to suggest that this is probably the best probability for its anomalous elevated genetic presence in these specific lombardic/gothic settlement areas, at this point in time.

    Germanic and Celtic are cultural not (in all cases) genetic determinants. The early Eu18 (R1b) and Eu7 (All Hg 'I') Eu19 (R1a) are in a way playing havoc with current SNP distros and more recent discoveries because in the early era when these had not yet been seperated into their current regional distros,

    a early, simplistic and inaccurate application of ;
    Eu18/(R1b)= Celtic
    and Eu7 (All Hg 'I')= Germanic (this then included all I2 and dinaric since they have not been SNP typed)
    Eu19 (R1a)= Slavic

    This was neat, look simple and basically could be viewed to fit fairly well. The problem was, it started collapsing under the weight of further advances in population genetics.

    We have never to this day found even one lone example of I1 on the entire european continent from any ancient sample, while all other Y-dna have been found on the european continent- We do find medieval I1 on the Scandinavian Penninsula in the burial of the leader of the Svears who established control over what is now Sweden, and who were ethnically distinct from Geatish southern populations.

    We find plentiful Eu19/R1a all the way west to modern france 1,500 years before the slavic migrations west we have any record of. We also find significant G2a and I2 all the way to coastal france along with some R1b during this period.

    For all we really know at this point, I1 is actually a Svearish Hg adopted culturally into the Geatish lands they eventually over-powered, instead of "the" Germanic Hg.
    We now know after typing R1b-s21 that many germans are in s21, at least in modern populations as opposed to the potential migrating I1 Svears along the north sea Hanseatic coastal regions.

    We now know that R1b, R1a, I2, and G2 Y-dna can be found in Western European populations' ancient remains in the Bronze age, on the verge of these celtic and germanic cultures very beginnings or possibly even before they existed culturally.

    All that said, with a anomaly that is so obvious in a small and precise region long in the settlement and control of a population to the degree that it actually left its tribal name on the area to this very day, I think that its scientific malpractice not to suggest that U-152 must be at least investigated as the result of gothic, lombardic, or other eastern germanics settling in the area.

    NOT doing so because back in 1999 at the advent of Y-dna testing, when everyone in the entire R1b Hg were all described as 'celts', and no one had any sort of SNP's at all beyond M-269,
    which led everyone at that time to make up their minds and it now requires a lot of revision of what were once firmly held beliefs that often affect peoples assumptions about their own Y-results,...

    is not a valid or sound stand to oppose such a rational examination in this case.
    Last edited by corinth; 31-01-12 at 08:24. Reason: correct to 'R1a' in two places.

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    Quote Originally Posted by corinth View Post
    By the time we have concrete coordinates for the tribal population called lombards/langobards who move later into the north Italian settlements, they are living in the Carpathian Mountains in what would be today eastern Romania and western Ukraine.
    What additions or substitutions they ethnically consist of at this point, during which they spend about 40 years as vassals to Huns, is impossible to say.
    All the gothic and/or eastern germanic populations at this point have cooperated and conflicted with western germanic tribal populations that they have allied and fought with, sometimes both with the same tribes.

    Its fully possible (but also speculation) that prior to this interaction the dialect of the Goths or Lombards could be eastern gothic / eastern germanic- which is pitifully documented because it is a destroyed and dispersed population- and that Western Germanic is later adopted as they rise to a level of a european power, **at least in its written form**, since this western germanic prevails in their new 'adopted' western homeland in Europe. The written forms may also be entirely the product of LITERATE western germanic speakers in their employ.

    The underlying issue though is that no one has any sample of Gothic-cultural Y-results or Lombardic DNA, and while I would not suggest a automatic assumption that U-152 being such a large anomaly in their eventual adopted home region is the product of these eastern germanic populations,

    I also see no valid reason not to suggest that this is probably the best probability for its anomalous elevated genetic presence in these specific lombardic/gothic settlement areas, at this point in time.

    Germanic and Celtic are cultural not (in all cases) genetic determinants. The early Eu18 (R1b) and Eu7 (All Hg 'I') Eu19 (R1a) are in a way playing havoc with current SNP distros and more recent discoveries because in the early era when these had not yet been seperated into their current regional distros,

    a early, simplistic and inaccurate application of ;
    Eu18/(R1b)= Celtic
    and Eu7 (All Hg 'I')= Germanic (this then included all I2 and dinaric since they have not been SNP typed)
    Eu19 (R1a)= Slavic

    This was neat, look simple and basically could be viewed to fit fairly well. The problem was, it started collapsing under the weight of further advances in population genetics.

    We have never to this day found even one lone example of I1 on the entire european continent from any ancient sample, while all other Y-dna have been found on the european continent- We do find medieval I1 on the Scandinavian Penninsula in the burial of the leader of the Svears who established control over what is now Sweden, and who were ethnically distinct from Geatish southern populations.

    We find plentiful Eu19/R1a all the way west to modern france 1,500 years before the slavic migrations west we have any record of. We also find significant G2a and I2 all the way to coastal france along with some R1b during this period.

    For all we really know at this point, I1 is actually a Svearish Hg adopted culturally into the Geatish lands they eventually over-powered, instead of "the" Germanic Hg.
    We now know after typing R1b-s21 that many germans are in s21, at least in modern populations as opposed to the potential migrating I1 Svears along the north sea Hanseatic coastal regions.

    We now know that R1b, R1a, I2, and G2 Y-dna can be found in Western European populations' ancient remains in the Bronze age, on the verge of these celtic and germanic cultures very beginnings or possibly even before they existed culturally.

    All that said, with a anomaly that is so obvious in a small and precise region long in the settlement and control of a population to the degree that it actually left its tribal name on the area to this very day, I think that its scientific malpractice not to suggest that U-152 must be at least investigated as the result of gothic, lombardic, or other eastern germanics settling in the area.

    NOT doing so because back in 1999 at the advent of Y-dna testing, when everyone in the entire R1b Hg were all described as 'celts', and no one had any sort of SNP's at all beyond M-269,
    which led everyone at that time to make up their minds and it now requires a lot of revision of what were once firmly held beliefs that often affect peoples assumptions about their own Y-results,...

    is not a valid or sound stand to oppose such a rational examination in this case.
    The only germanics I know that lived around the carpathain mountains where the Bastanae and these mountains where originally called Montes Bastanae, then later followed the goths which scholars say annexed the bastanae.

    I do not beleive any marker belongs to any tribe/race/culture

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    ?
    the only reference I found that the longobards are not east-germanic is in this wiki site
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germanic_tribes

    its says that tradionally they where east-germanic

    Vindili branch below
    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...ermans&f=false

    But then then Longobards where originally from scandinavia and where called the VINILI
    when they migrated to germany they changed name to Longobards.
    They inhabited the Vindili linguistic area , but could in there migrations changed there linguistic traits to the swabian, bavarian, alemannic tree

    Pliny the elder says also they where east-germanic from the VINDILI linguistic branch

    See Christie, Neil. The Lombards: The Ancient Longobards
    There is absolutely no evidence, other than that book from 1839 that you cite above, which makes no particular case that they were East Germanic other than that the Langobards were arbitrarily assigned as East Germanic. I am pretty sure that Pliny does not describe them as "East Germanic". First off, the Romans didn't know this linguistic distinction (partially because the distinction between the various branches of Germanic did not exists yet). Pliny the Elder does not mention them at all in his natural history.

    Only continental west Germanic languages executed the second germanic sound shift, and from what little evidence there is (Langobardic names) it fully executed this sound shift:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_...Overview_table
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aripert_I
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liutpra...f_the_Lombards

    Note the development of Proto-Germanic *b to *p

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    There is absolutely no evidence, other than that book from 1839 that you cite above, which makes no particular case that they were East Germanic other than that the Langobards were arbitrarily assigned as East Germanic. I am pretty sure that Pliny does not describe them as "East Germanic". First off, the Romans didn't know this linguistic distinction (partially because the distinction between the various branches of Germanic did not exists yet). Pliny the Elder does not mention them at all in his natural history.

    Only continental west Germanic languages executed the second germanic sound shift, and from what little evidence there is (Langobardic names) it fully executed this sound shift:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_...Overview_table
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aripert_I
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liutpra...f_the_Lombards

    Note the development of Proto-Germanic *b to *p
    first off, there are hundreds of books which say different to what you say, secondly, the only proof you have is presented by wiki, a place where even non-scholars can present any data they want and has proven to have a high percentage of fantasy

    present some evidence, i can place hundreds of books on what I claim

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=CbEhAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA381&lpg=PA381&dq=lombar d+vinili&source=bl&ots=Alq8EqG3E9&sig=UBxfzOS2acgv p3sTQeTCaZ12UfI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tbEnT4_bCO6jiAfC3ezY Ag&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=lombard vinili&f=false


    whats all your links got to do with when the longobards where in germany. ? I am saying the language they spoke there, not when they arrived in Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    first off, there are hundreds of books which say different to what you say, secondly, the only proof you have is presented by wiki, a place where even non-scholars can present any data they want and has proven to have a high percentage of fantasy
    I used Wikipedia because it's summarized quite well there, but I can provide other sources if you like. It appears rather pointless though if you won't believe how the names of Langobardic kings are preserved, and what the Second Germanic sound shift incorporates. Furthermore, I already gave you the sections in Tacitus' Germania and Ptolemy's Geography that regard the Langobardi (which both affiliate the Langobards with the Suebi), I can also give you the section of Pliny's Natural History where the Germanic tribes are mentioned (book 4, chapter 14), and where the Langobards are not mentioned, against your own claim.

    present some evidence, i can place hundreds of books on what I claim
    Yet it is all inconsistent with the available geographic and linguistic evidence on the Langobards.

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    Istvan Kiszely's "Anthropology of the Lombards" indicates that the most common single skull type in Longobard/Lombard graves in central Europe and Italy was a so-called "Nordic-CroMagnon" type common in North Germany but not in Scandinavia.

    Most evidence points to a West Germanic origin akin to Bavarians and others.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    first off, there are hundreds of books which say different to what you say, secondly, the only proof you have is presented by wiki, a place where even non-scholars can present any data they want and has proven to have a high percentage of fantasy

    present some evidence, i can place hundreds of books on what I claim

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=CbEhAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA381&lpg=PA381&dq=lombar d+vinili&source=bl&ots=Alq8EqG3E9&sig=UBxfzOS2acgv p3sTQeTCaZ12UfI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tbEnT4_bCO6jiAfC3ezY Ag&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=lombard vinili&f=false


    whats all your links got to do with when the longobards where in germany. ? I am saying the language they spoke there, not when they arrived in Italy
    And yet you quote a book from 1841... ;) no offence zanipolo, but even Charles Darwin published his book the origin of species in 1859. Which should illustrate how drastically paradigms can change within only a few years. Nowadays linguists are using software to analyse and compare languages with one another. A technique which did not exist in 1841.

    You should use Google scholar, which consists more up to date scientific literature.
    http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=20857242

    quote:
    "The partial undoing of the Shift presupposes a long history of dialect mixture in both cases. This supports the view that both High German (including the Ubian language of the Lower Rhineland) and Lombardic underwent the essential Shift, the affrication of the voiceless plosives, in their Herminonic homeland, the Lower Elbe region, before their dispersal in the early centuries of the Christian era."
    Last edited by Christiaan; 31-01-12 at 17:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by corinth View Post
    By the time we have concrete coordinates for the tribal population called lombards/langobards who move later into the north Italian settlements, they are living in the Carpathian Mountains in what would be today eastern Romania and western Ukraine.
    What additions or substitutions they ethnically consist of at this point, during which they spend about 40 years as vassals to Huns, is impossible to say.
    All the gothic and/or eastern germanic populations at this point have cooperated and conflicted with western germanic tribal populations that they have allied and fought with, sometimes both with the same tribes.

    Its fully possible (but also speculation) that prior to this interaction the dialect of the Goths or Lombards could be eastern gothic / eastern germanic- which is pitifully documented because it is a destroyed and dispersed population- and that Western Germanic is later adopted as they rise to a level of a european power, **at least in its written form**, since this western germanic prevails in their new 'adopted' western homeland in Europe. The written forms may also be entirely the product of LITERATE western germanic speakers in their employ.

    The underlying issue though is that no one has any sample of Gothic-cultural Y-results or Lombardic DNA, and while I would not suggest a automatic assumption that U-152 being such a large anomaly in their eventual adopted home region is the product of these eastern germanic populations,

    I also see no valid reason not to suggest that this is probably the best probability for its anomalous elevated genetic presence in these specific lombardic/gothic settlement areas, at this point in time.

    Germanic and Celtic are cultural not (in all cases) genetic determinants. The early Eu18 (R1b) and Eu7 (All Hg 'I') Eu19 (R1a) are in a way playing havoc with current SNP distros and more recent discoveries because in the early era when these had not yet been seperated into their current regional distros,

    a early, simplistic and inaccurate application of ;
    Eu18/(R1b)= Celtic
    and Eu7 (All Hg 'I')= Germanic (this then included all I2 and dinaric since they have not been SNP typed)
    Eu19 (R1a)= Slavic

    This was neat, look simple and basically could be viewed to fit fairly well. The problem was, it started collapsing under the weight of further advances in population genetics.

    We have never to this day found even one lone example of I1 on the entire european continent from any ancient sample, while all other Y-dna have been found on the european continent- We do find medieval I1 on the Scandinavian Penninsula in the burial of the leader of the Svears who established control over what is now Sweden, and who were ethnically distinct from Geatish southern populations.

    We find plentiful Eu19/R1a all the way west to modern france 1,500 years before the slavic migrations west we have any record of. We also find significant G2a and I2 all the way to coastal france along with some R1b during this period.

    For all we really know at this point, I1 is actually a Svearish Hg adopted culturally into the Geatish lands they eventually over-powered, instead of "the" Germanic Hg.
    We now know after typing R1b-s21 that many germans are in s21, at least in modern populations as opposed to the potential migrating I1 Svears along the north sea Hanseatic coastal regions.

    We now know that R1b, R1a, I2, and G2 Y-dna can be found in Western European populations' ancient remains in the Bronze age, on the verge of these celtic and germanic cultures very beginnings or possibly even before they existed culturally.

    All that said, with a anomaly that is so obvious in a small and precise region long in the settlement and control of a population to the degree that it actually left its tribal name on the area to this very day, I think that its scientific malpractice not to suggest that U-152 must be at least investigated as the result of gothic, lombardic, or other eastern germanics settling in the area.

    NOT doing so because back in 1999 at the advent of Y-dna testing, when everyone in the entire R1b Hg were all described as 'celts', and no one had any sort of SNP's at all beyond M-269,
    which led everyone at that time to make up their minds and it now requires a lot of revision of what were once firmly held beliefs that often affect peoples assumptions about their own Y-results,...

    is not a valid or sound stand to oppose such a rational examination in this case.
    Well, I think you misunderstood my remark. Personally, I don't think that DNA is always specific enough to identify an ethnicity, especially those of Northern Europe. What I meant to say is that they cultural were probably western germanic, because they were surrounded by western germanic cultures when they lived in the lower Elbe region. By the way you should mention before they moved to the Carpathian Mountains (6th century AD) they lived in the lower Elbe region for some centuries while they left the Carpathians after only 100 years(~3/4 generations) or so. The question is did they change that much in that period culturally? They few remnants of that language do not reflect this shift to an eastern germanic language.

    In addition the archaeological evidence in the carpatian mountains show that they were elbgermanic people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    Well, I think you misunderstood my remark. Personally, I don't think that DNA is always specific enough to identify an ethnicity, especially those of Northern Europe. What I meant to say is that they cultural were probably western germanic, because they were surrounded by western germanic cultures when they lived in the lower Elbe region.
    In most cases, except this actual historical scenario culminating in massive U-152 presence in "LOMBARDY", i would agree with you. In this case though, we have a known final settlement of this population, and it contains a y-dna anomaly within its settlement boundaries.
    Other earlier or later population movements theoretically could be responsible for this U-152 elevated presence, but they are not supported in the historical record, and 'we have what we have', to investigate. Some tooth pulp from a few Lombardic attributable cultural burials in the Po Valley gives the answers.. its not that difficult to substantiate.

    The majority of tribal period elbe-germanic lands and virtually all eastern germanic lands are completely repopulated today with Slavic or some other later arriving population, so even if we accept for the moment that references to Irmiones or Hermiones (elbe-ic germanic) by Pliny related to parts of later Lombardic tribal populations (very tenuous), it really does not get anyone any closer to any sort of genetic linkage, because these are all still destroyed, scattered populations surviving portions of which were subsumed into other groups father westward.

    The 'Lombards' who eventually break free of the Huns in the east and take over northern italy are not in any accurate sense western germanic because they incorporate settlements of Goths who likely compose some part of their genetic component by the point they are settled in former gothic provinces in North Italy, and they had lived well into eastern europe for at a minimum several generations before migrating west.

    In this period, every germanic population is fleeing west from asiatics to the safety of german-controlled lands, so it really takes some explanation as to why the Lombards would move into a area well-known to be plagued by endemic Hunnic violence to which the Lombards themselves fell victim, if they were not already in their home region.

    Attempting to connect tenuous tribal affiliations and naming conventions based off of Roman interpretations by Historians who had themselves never even been to any of these places or tribal confederations is.. tenuous at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan
    By the way you should mention before they moved to the Carpathian Mountains (6th century AD) they lived in the lower Elbe region for some centuries while they left the Carpathians after only 100 years(~3/4 generations) or so. The question is did they change that much in that period culturally? They few remnants of that language do not reflect this shift to an eastern germanic language.
    In addition the archaeological evidence in the carpatian mountains show that they were elbgermanic people.
    They would have been effectively slaves to a degree during this time, or at best a slave-military force.

    We really do not have any Lombardic "language" to dissect, nor any spoken voice.
    We have only names.. The fact that some names are spelled by a chronicler "Aribert" instead of "Aripert" is the totality of what we actually have to make the case for Lombardic german being western-germanic as opposed to eastern or nothern germanic.
    That would be like asserting that should I name my son Pierre or Juan, that makes them affilated with the entire cultural continuity of a language sub-group from which those names derived.

    Naming conventions can be affected by the scribe, who would be one of the very few literate persons at that time, (most people including rulers could not themselves read or write, so the person hired to do this need not himself be of the same Lombardic ancestry) and may come himself from a western germanic background.
    Naming conventions and fads can also be adopted from those who now surround you as the more recent tribal immigrants, and adopted in the same way that Vulgar Latin became the lingua franca of the germanic Lombards in short order, since it is more flexible and traditional amongst literate scribes in their settlement areas who cannot write or read in Runic script.

    As to the language family assignment all we can say is that no one has made a formal determination for Lombardic germans family group because we do not have a body of writing to dissect except in Latin. The scribe writing Lombardic names in Latin may be a local german from a western tribal population or a local italian, and both of these are likely to have more formally educated scribes than the Lombards coming out of the Carpathians.
    Last edited by corinth; 01-02-12 at 06:15. Reason: fix quote html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    There is absolutely no evidence, other than that book from 1839 that you cite above, which makes no particular case that they were East Germanic other than that the Langobards were arbitrarily assigned as East Germanic. I am pretty sure that Pliny does not describe them as "East Germanic".
    I think there are two different understandings of 'eastern germanic' as that term can be fairly appropriated.

    One would be the germanic language family from which their verbage derives. This is entirely conjecture and its entirely based off of personal names that are transliterated through Latin-literate scribes..

    You can cite that all you want, but there are several different levels at which this becomes easily corrupted that I have mentioned in previous posts, and without any body of writing ( let alone that which predates contact with later moving tribal populations) we can possibly say that the writer who transliterated some of these Lombardic names into vulgar Latin has some familiarity with western-germanic language structures.
    The problem is, that scribe could himself very easily be of any population himself, and would be a educated elite not likely found amongst Lombardic populations at that time. Drawing conclusions about the general non-literate Lombardic populations based upon the inflections and transliterations of a elite scribe is probably going to lead to information about the background of that anonymous scribe,.. Lombardic population = not so much.

    --------------------------

    The second form of usage for western/eastern germanic would be as a reference to western-germanic as including lands that either are or recently were, germanic populated, into modern times,
    while eastern-germanic would refer to lands that were historical germanic homelands in ancient times but are now destroyed, non-extant populations.

    In the later sense, the elbic (partially destroyed) or eastern-germanic (totally destoyed) populations both meet a suitable colloquial usage of eastern germanic for the purposes of conversation.
    Whatever or where-ever the Lombards started out in their geographical population origins, they ended up in the east, and moved into the Po Valley, thus separating any cultural ties to extant western germanic or fading eastern germanic populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by corinth View Post
    I think there are two different understandings of 'eastern germanic' as that term can be fairly appropriated.

    One would be the germanic language family from which their verbage derives. This is entirely conjecture and its entirely based off of personal names that are transliterated through Latin-literate scribes..

    You can cite that all you want, but there are several different levels at which this becomes easily corrupted that I have mentioned in previous posts, and without any body of writing ( let alone that which predates contact with later moving tribal populations) we can possibly say that the writer who transliterated some of these Lombardic names into vulgar Latin has some familiarity with western-germanic language structures.
    Sorry, you are completely wrong here regarding your assumption regarding "the writer". Why would writers (you're, after all, implying that it was just one, since they obviously appear in more than one source) consistently render names as if they have executed the second germanic sound shift? The only sensible explanation is that the second germanic sound shift indeed applied for the Langobardic language.

    In any case, there is no evidence that the Langobardic language had any ties with the East Germanic languages (ie, Gothic and Crimean Gothic).

    The problem is, that scribe could himself very easily be of any population himself, and would be a educated elite not likely found amongst Lombardic populations at that time. Drawing conclusions about the general non-literate Lombardic populations based upon the inflections and transliterations of a elite scribe is probably going to lead to information about the background of that anonymous scribe,.. Lombardic population = not so much.

    --------------------------
    It should be added that there is a couple of (ostensibly) Langobardic loanwords into Italian, such as the word "panca" (bench, compare with German "Bank").

    The second form of usage for western/eastern germanic would be as a reference to western-germanic as including lands that either are or recently were, germanic populated, into modern times,
    while eastern-germanic would refer to lands that were historical germanic homelands in ancient times but are now destroyed, non-extant populations.

    In the later sense, the elbic (partially destroyed) or eastern-germanic (totally destoyed) populations both meet a suitable colloquial usage of eastern germanic for the purposes of conversation.
    Whatever or where-ever the Lombards started out in their geographical population origins, they ended up in the east, and moved into the Po Valley, thus separating any cultural ties to extant western germanic or fading eastern germanic populations.
    No, I disagree. This does not reflect their geographic position before the migration period (which would have been more central), and it does not reflect their linguistic position either (West Germanic).

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    this issue on names to determine a language is silly.

    take for example in the 16th century, the HRE was Carlo V in Spain, Charles V in English and Karl V in Austria ( his other kingdom ) , writers wrote what they assumed or converted the name to fit their area.

    As for Lombardic Language - when it arrived in Italy it was not the language they departed with, it only lasted until the 10th century and was replaced with a north italian language ( merged) , 2 centuries later easter Lombardy started to convert to venetian and this lasted into the 19th century. When eastern lombardy was lost to venice, the lombardic term for its language was changed to be called Milanese langauge and that is what it called today.
    The language was inferior and gave way to an italic form. IF it was western germanic it would ahve retained its prestige even more so as its northern neighbors where germanic



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    they are part of the Vindili group, there eastern neighbours are the burgundians who are east-germanic , the aviones and carini, there northern neighbours are east-germanic.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Etrusco-romano View Post
    The frequency off I1 and I2b in Italy is not necessarily linked to a Germanic presence, many Sardinians belong to haplogroup I, and some of them, in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, were literally "bought" by the various Italian states for thickening populations of some depressed areas, is therefore likely that many of these stem from the Sardinians in Italy. Anyway I haplogroup is also common in earlier times to the coming of the Indo-Europeans, so it is very likely that only a small part of the frequency of I in Italy belongs to the Germans.
    I should add that in Italy to find a Nordic characters is very difficult, the biondismo (blonde hair), although reasonably common, is associated with anthropological mediterranean, or whataver indo-european, characteristics (shape of the face, skin color etc. ..).
    Sorry?
    blond hairs are not reasonably common in Italy: it runs from <1% in Sardigna to 16% in tyrolian region or in Dolomites, passing by 1-2% only in Sicily (and yet Sicily is not 100% homogenous neither for pigmentation not for metrics, nor for DNA) and South Italy, by 3-4% in Central Italy (with local variations), 5-6% in Emilia (Romagna darker), 8% in Piemonte, 10-11% in Lombardia, S-Veneto, 12-13% in Friul (an hazard? = the same % in the most of Slovenia)... so it begins to be a "common" thing only int the most northern parts of Italy (a 10% of blond phenotype corresponds roughly to a 30-35% of the principal pigmentation genes being 'blond' bearer (its to say: an important enough part of the population, contrary to the South case -
    for the argument blond people don't show nordic features, I find that very funny: in a mixed population, genes are exchanged and a man heritate some traits from a source and other traits from other sources: but statistically, Northern Italy show people with nordic features (cranial and body well determined traits, too long to explain here) and other people with mixed features where nordic accretions can be found, all that among little more numerous people showing other features -what was written and I agree is that a little part of the population of the northern "blond" regions of Italy can be associated wirh (upon the 'nordic' source) an other blond phenotype, more bracycephalic and showing common traits with some German minoritary traits we can find also in Western Norway and other parts of the germanic world, features that was found in Europe south-west the Baltic Sea 5000/6000 years ago yet (and after that in a little proportion among Belgae Celts)
    when a phenotype is overrun by more numerous other ones, it's rare finding a majority of the paradigm features in the same individual - it's evident -
    for the Y-I in Italy, ireland and elsewhere it would be interesting to see what Nordtvedt say about the repartition of their subclades...
    for the meaning of 'mediterranean' do keep in mind that 'nordic' is put into this classification by some scholars, giving way to misunderstandings

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    i am looking for this lombardic discreation and could only find it came from one man Werner Betz

    as some scholars believe, Lombardic was an East Germanic language and not part of the German language dialect continuum, it is possible that parallel shifts took place independently in German and Lombardic. However the extant words in Lombardic show clear relations to Bavarian. Therefore Werner Betz and others prefer to treat Lombardic as an Old High German dialect. There were close connections between Lombards and Proto-Bavarians: The Lombards settled until 568 in 'Tullner Feld' (about 50 km west of Vienna); some Lombard graves (excavated a few years ago when a new railway line was built) date after 568; it is evident that not all Lombards went to Italy in 568. The rest seem to have become part of the then newly formed Bavarian groups.

    considering this article above , he noted there language when they lived with the bavarians near Vienna ( Bavarians )

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    Taking into account the history records, current distribution of haplogroups in Europe the East Germanic people were predominantly R1a-z280 and surely not U-152.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    Taking into account the history records, current distribution of haplogroups in Europe the East Germanic people were predominantly R1a-z280 and surely not U-152.
    i would agree , and since the angles where the lombards north west neighbours ( on the map ) it would be essentail to find if the angles who migrated to england had the same R1a


    Also, on the map which indicate purely germanic tribes, there are no bavarians ( or I do not know what they where originally called ). there are the Vindelicians who live east of Lake Venetic ( Lake Constance) .

    The alemanni would be the old swabians and germanic swiss, or the narisci ?
    Either way , the lombards would not have had U-152 but where given U-152 once arriving in Italy

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    Lombard personal names are similar to Bavarian (High German) names often ending in -PRAND or -PERT.
    eg
    Liutprand, Ansprand, Erchempert, Prand, Walprand, Ansoald, Alboin, Rodepert, Hildeprand, Rachipert, Ratchis,Auripert, Roppert, Adelpert, Cospert, Gundolprand, Faroald, Hildepert, Garipald, Eriprand and scores of others.

    Nicoletta Onesti's study of personal names in Lombard Tuscany found 44 per cent Longobard (Germanic) names, 30 pc Latin, 22pc Longobard with the Latin -ULUS ending and 4 per cent hybrid (eg Flavipert).

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