Lombard DNA in Italy

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the only reference I found that the longobards are not east-germanic is in this wiki site
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germanic_tribes

its says that tradionally they where east-germanic

Vindili branch below
http://books.google.com.au/books?id...w6c&hl=en#v=onepage&q=vindili germans&f=false

But then then Longobards where originally from scandinavia and where called the VINILI
when they migrated to germany they changed name to Longobards.
They inhabited the Vindili linguistic area , but could in there migrations changed there linguistic traits to the swabian, bavarian, alemannic tree

Pliny the elder says also they where east-germanic from the VINDILI linguistic branch

See Christie, Neil. The Lombards: The Ancient Longobards

There is absolutely no evidence, other than that book from 1839 that you cite above, which makes no particular case that they were East Germanic other than that the Langobards were arbitrarily assigned as East Germanic. I am pretty sure that Pliny does not describe them as "East Germanic". First off, the Romans didn't know this linguistic distinction (partially because the distinction between the various branches of Germanic did not exists yet). Pliny the Elder does not mention them at all in his natural history.

Only continental west Germanic languages executed the second germanic sound shift, and from what little evidence there is (Langobardic names) it fully executed this sound shift:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Germanic_sound_shift#Overview_table
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aripert_I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liutprand,_King_of_the_Lombards

Note the development of Proto-Germanic *b to *p
 
There is absolutely no evidence, other than that book from 1839 that you cite above, which makes no particular case that they were East Germanic other than that the Langobards were arbitrarily assigned as East Germanic. I am pretty sure that Pliny does not describe them as "East Germanic". First off, the Romans didn't know this linguistic distinction (partially because the distinction between the various branches of Germanic did not exists yet). Pliny the Elder does not mention them at all in his natural history.

Only continental west Germanic languages executed the second germanic sound shift, and from what little evidence there is (Langobardic names) it fully executed this sound shift:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Germanic_sound_shift#Overview_table
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aripert_I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liutprand,_King_of_the_Lombards

Note the development of Proto-Germanic *b to *p

first off, there are hundreds of books which say different to what you say, secondly, the only proof you have is presented by wiki, a place where even non-scholars can present any data they want and has proven to have a high percentage of fantasy

present some evidence, i can place hundreds of books on what I claim

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=CbEhAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA381&lpg=PA381&dq=lombard+vinili&source=bl&ots=Alq8EqG3E9&sig=UBxfzOS2acgvp3sTQeTCaZ12UfI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tbEnT4_bCO6jiAfC3ezYAg&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=lombard vinili&f=false


whats all your links got to do with when the longobards where in germany. ? I am saying the language they spoke there, not when they arrived in Italy
 
first off, there are hundreds of books which say different to what you say, secondly, the only proof you have is presented by wiki, a place where even non-scholars can present any data they want and has proven to have a high percentage of fantasy

I used Wikipedia because it's summarized quite well there, but I can provide other sources if you like. It appears rather pointless though if you won't believe how the names of Langobardic kings are preserved, and what the Second Germanic sound shift incorporates. Furthermore, I already gave you the sections in Tacitus' Germania and Ptolemy's Geography that regard the Langobardi (which both affiliate the Langobards with the Suebi), I can also give you the section of Pliny's Natural History where the Germanic tribes are mentioned (book 4, chapter 14), and where the Langobards are not mentioned, against your own claim.

present some evidence, i can place hundreds of books on what I claim

Yet it is all inconsistent with the available geographic and linguistic evidence on the Langobards.
 
Istvan Kiszely's "Anthropology of the Lombards" indicates that the most common single skull type in Longobard/Lombard graves in central Europe and Italy was a so-called "Nordic-CroMagnon" type common in North Germany but not in Scandinavia.

Most evidence points to a West Germanic origin akin to Bavarians and others.
 
first off, there are hundreds of books which say different to what you say, secondly, the only proof you have is presented by wiki, a place where even non-scholars can present any data they want and has proven to have a high percentage of fantasy

present some evidence, i can place hundreds of books on what I claim

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=CbEhAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA381&lpg=PA381&dq=lombard+vinili&source=bl&ots=Alq8EqG3E9&sig=UBxfzOS2acgvp3sTQeTCaZ12UfI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tbEnT4_bCO6jiAfC3ezYAg&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=lombard vinili&f=false


whats all your links got to do with when the longobards where in germany. ? I am saying the language they spoke there, not when they arrived in Italy

And yet you quote a book from 1841... ;) no offence zanipolo, but even Charles Darwin published his book the origin of species in 1859. Which should illustrate how drastically paradigms can change within only a few years. Nowadays linguists are using software to analyse and compare languages with one another. A technique which did not exist in 1841.

You should use Google scholar, which consists more up to date scientific literature.
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=20857242

quote:
"The partial undoing of the Shift presupposes a long history of dialect mixture in both cases. This supports the view that both High German (including the Ubian language of the Lower Rhineland) and Lombardic underwent the essential Shift, the affrication of the voiceless plosives, in their Herminonic homeland, the Lower Elbe region, before their dispersal in the early centuries of the Christian era."
 
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By the time we have concrete coordinates for the tribal population called lombards/langobards who move later into the north Italian settlements, they are living in the Carpathian Mountains in what would be today eastern Romania and western Ukraine.
What additions or substitutions they ethnically consist of at this point, during which they spend about 40 years as vassals to Huns, is impossible to say.
All the gothic and/or eastern germanic populations at this point have cooperated and conflicted with western germanic tribal populations that they have allied and fought with, sometimes both with the same tribes.

Its fully possible (but also speculation) that prior to this interaction the dialect of the Goths or Lombards could be eastern gothic / eastern germanic- which is pitifully documented because it is a destroyed and dispersed population- and that Western Germanic is later adopted as they rise to a level of a european power, **at least in its written form**, since this western germanic prevails in their new 'adopted' western homeland in Europe. The written forms may also be entirely the product of LITERATE western germanic speakers in their employ.

The underlying issue though is that no one has any sample of Gothic-cultural Y-results or Lombardic DNA, and while I would not suggest a automatic assumption that U-152 being such a large anomaly in their eventual adopted home region is the product of these eastern germanic populations,

I also see no valid reason not to suggest that this is probably the best probability for its anomalous elevated genetic presence in these specific lombardic/gothic settlement areas, at this point in time.

Germanic and Celtic are cultural not (in all cases) genetic determinants. The early Eu18 (R1b) and Eu7 (All Hg 'I') Eu19 (R1a) are in a way playing havoc with current SNP distros and more recent discoveries because in the early era when these had not yet been seperated into their current regional distros,

a early, simplistic and inaccurate application of ;
Eu18/(R1b)= Celtic
and Eu7 (All Hg 'I')= Germanic (this then included all I2 and dinaric since they have not been SNP typed)
Eu19 (R1a)= Slavic

This was neat, look simple and basically could be viewed to fit fairly well. The problem was, it started collapsing under the weight of further advances in population genetics.

We have never to this day found even one lone example of I1 on the entire european continent from any ancient sample, while all other Y-dna have been found on the european continent- We do find medieval I1 on the Scandinavian Penninsula in the burial of the leader of the Svears who established control over what is now Sweden, and who were ethnically distinct from Geatish southern populations.

We find plentiful Eu19/R1a all the way west to modern france 1,500 years before the slavic migrations west we have any record of. We also find significant G2a and I2 all the way to coastal france along with some R1b during this period.

For all we really know at this point, I1 is actually a Svearish Hg adopted culturally into the Geatish lands they eventually over-powered, instead of "the" Germanic Hg.
We now know after typing R1b-s21 that many germans are in s21, at least in modern populations as opposed to the potential migrating I1 Svears along the north sea Hanseatic coastal regions.

We now know that R1b, R1a, I2, and G2 Y-dna can be found in Western European populations' ancient remains in the Bronze age, on the verge of these celtic and germanic cultures very beginnings or possibly even before they existed culturally.

All that said, with a anomaly that is so obvious in a small and precise region long in the settlement and control of a population to the degree that it actually left its tribal name on the area to this very day, I think that its scientific malpractice not to suggest that U-152 must be at least investigated as the result of gothic, lombardic, or other eastern germanics settling in the area.

NOT doing so because back in 1999 at the advent of Y-dna testing, when everyone in the entire R1b Hg were all described as 'celts', and no one had any sort of SNP's at all beyond M-269,
which led everyone at that time to make up their minds and it now requires a lot of revision of what were once firmly held beliefs that often affect peoples assumptions about their own Y-results,...

is not a valid or sound stand to oppose such a rational examination in this case.

Well, I think you misunderstood my remark. Personally, I don't think that DNA is always specific enough to identify an ethnicity, especially those of Northern Europe. What I meant to say is that they cultural were probably western germanic, because they were surrounded by western germanic cultures when they lived in the lower Elbe region. By the way you should mention before they moved to the Carpathian Mountains (6th century AD) they lived in the lower Elbe region for some centuries while they left the Carpathians after only 100 years(~3/4 generations) or so. The question is did they change that much in that period culturally? They few remnants of that language do not reflect this shift to an eastern germanic language.

In addition the archaeological evidence in the carpatian mountains show that they were elbgermanic people.
 
Well, I think you misunderstood my remark. Personally, I don't think that DNA is always specific enough to identify an ethnicity, especially those of Northern Europe. What I meant to say is that they cultural were probably western germanic, because they were surrounded by western germanic cultures when they lived in the lower Elbe region.

In most cases, except this actual historical scenario culminating in massive U-152 presence in "LOMBARDY", i would agree with you. In this case though, we have a known final settlement of this population, and it contains a y-dna anomaly within its settlement boundaries.
Other earlier or later population movements theoretically could be responsible for this U-152 elevated presence, but they are not supported in the historical record, and 'we have what we have', to investigate. Some tooth pulp from a few Lombardic attributable cultural burials in the Po Valley gives the answers.. its not that difficult to substantiate.

The majority of tribal period elbe-germanic lands and virtually all eastern germanic lands are completely repopulated today with Slavic or some other later arriving population, so even if we accept for the moment that references to Irmiones or Hermiones (elbe-ic germanic) by Pliny related to parts of later Lombardic tribal populations (very tenuous), it really does not get anyone any closer to any sort of genetic linkage, because these are all still destroyed, scattered populations surviving portions of which were subsumed into other groups father westward.

The 'Lombards' who eventually break free of the Huns in the east and take over northern italy are not in any accurate sense western germanic because they incorporate settlements of Goths who likely compose some part of their genetic component by the point they are settled in former gothic provinces in North Italy, and they had lived well into eastern europe for at a minimum several generations before migrating west.

In this period, every germanic population is fleeing west from asiatics to the safety of german-controlled lands, so it really takes some explanation as to why the Lombards would move into a area well-known to be plagued by endemic Hunnic violence to which the Lombards themselves fell victim, if they were not already in their home region.

Attempting to connect tenuous tribal affiliations and naming conventions based off of Roman interpretations by Historians who had themselves never even been to any of these places or tribal confederations is.. tenuous at best.

Christiaan said:
By the way you should mention before they moved to the Carpathian Mountains (6th century AD) they lived in the lower Elbe region for some centuries while they left the Carpathians after only 100 years(~3/4 generations) or so. The question is did they change that much in that period culturally? They few remnants of that language do not reflect this shift to an eastern germanic language.
In addition the archaeological evidence in the carpatian mountains show that they were elbgermanic people.

They would have been effectively slaves to a degree during this time, or at best a slave-military force.

We really do not have any Lombardic "language" to dissect, nor any spoken voice.
We have only names.. The fact that some names are spelled by a chronicler "Aribert" instead of "Aripert" is the totality of what we actually have to make the case for Lombardic german being western-germanic as opposed to eastern or nothern germanic.
That would be like asserting that should I name my son Pierre or Juan, that makes them affilated with the entire cultural continuity of a language sub-group from which those names derived.

Naming conventions can be affected by the scribe, who would be one of the very few literate persons at that time, (most people including rulers could not themselves read or write, so the person hired to do this need not himself be of the same Lombardic ancestry) and may come himself from a western germanic background.
Naming conventions and fads can also be adopted from those who now surround you as the more recent tribal immigrants, and adopted in the same way that Vulgar Latin became the lingua franca of the germanic Lombards in short order, since it is more flexible and traditional amongst literate scribes in their settlement areas who cannot write or read in Runic script.

As to the language family assignment all we can say is that no one has made a formal determination for Lombardic germans family group because we do not have a body of writing to dissect except in Latin. The scribe writing Lombardic names in Latin may be a local german from a western tribal population or a local italian, and both of these are likely to have more formally educated scribes than the Lombards coming out of the Carpathians.
 
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There is absolutely no evidence, other than that book from 1839 that you cite above, which makes no particular case that they were East Germanic other than that the Langobards were arbitrarily assigned as East Germanic. I am pretty sure that Pliny does not describe them as "East Germanic".

I think there are two different understandings of 'eastern germanic' as that term can be fairly appropriated.

One would be the germanic language family from which their verbage derives. This is entirely conjecture and its entirely based off of personal names that are transliterated through Latin-literate scribes..

You can cite that all you want, but there are several different levels at which this becomes easily corrupted that I have mentioned in previous posts, and without any body of writing ( let alone that which predates contact with later moving tribal populations) we can possibly say that the writer who transliterated some of these Lombardic names into vulgar Latin has some familiarity with western-germanic language structures.
The problem is, that scribe could himself very easily be of any population himself, and would be a educated elite not likely found amongst Lombardic populations at that time. Drawing conclusions about the general non-literate Lombardic populations based upon the inflections and transliterations of a elite scribe is probably going to lead to information about the background of that anonymous scribe,.. Lombardic population = not so much.

--------------------------

The second form of usage for western/eastern germanic would be as a reference to western-germanic as including lands that either are or recently were, germanic populated, into modern times,
while eastern-germanic would refer to lands that were historical germanic homelands in ancient times but are now destroyed, non-extant populations.

In the later sense, the elbic (partially destroyed) or eastern-germanic (totally destoyed) populations both meet a suitable colloquial usage of eastern germanic for the purposes of conversation.
Whatever or where-ever the Lombards started out in their geographical population origins, they ended up in the east, and moved into the Po Valley, thus separating any cultural ties to extant western germanic or fading eastern germanic populations.
 
I think there are two different understandings of 'eastern germanic' as that term can be fairly appropriated.

One would be the germanic language family from which their verbage derives. This is entirely conjecture and its entirely based off of personal names that are transliterated through Latin-literate scribes..

You can cite that all you want, but there are several different levels at which this becomes easily corrupted that I have mentioned in previous posts, and without any body of writing ( let alone that which predates contact with later moving tribal populations) we can possibly say that the writer who transliterated some of these Lombardic names into vulgar Latin has some familiarity with western-germanic language structures.

Sorry, you are completely wrong here regarding your assumption regarding "the writer". Why would writers (you're, after all, implying that it was just one, since they obviously appear in more than one source) consistently render names as if they have executed the second germanic sound shift? The only sensible explanation is that the second germanic sound shift indeed applied for the Langobardic language.

In any case, there is no evidence that the Langobardic language had any ties with the East Germanic languages (ie, Gothic and Crimean Gothic).

The problem is, that scribe could himself very easily be of any population himself, and would be a educated elite not likely found amongst Lombardic populations at that time. Drawing conclusions about the general non-literate Lombardic populations based upon the inflections and transliterations of a elite scribe is probably going to lead to information about the background of that anonymous scribe,.. Lombardic population = not so much.

--------------------------

It should be added that there is a couple of (ostensibly) Langobardic loanwords into Italian, such as the word "panca" (bench, compare with German "Bank").

The second form of usage for western/eastern germanic would be as a reference to western-germanic as including lands that either are or recently were, germanic populated, into modern times,
while eastern-germanic would refer to lands that were historical germanic homelands in ancient times but are now destroyed, non-extant populations.

In the later sense, the elbic (partially destroyed) or eastern-germanic (totally destoyed) populations both meet a suitable colloquial usage of eastern germanic for the purposes of conversation.
Whatever or where-ever the Lombards started out in their geographical population origins, they ended up in the east, and moved into the Po Valley, thus separating any cultural ties to extant western germanic or fading eastern germanic populations.

No, I disagree. This does not reflect their geographic position before the migration period (which would have been more central), and it does not reflect their linguistic position either (West Germanic).
 
this issue on names to determine a language is silly.

take for example in the 16th century, the HRE was Carlo V in Spain, Charles V in English and Karl V in Austria ( his other kingdom ) , writers wrote what they assumed or converted the name to fit their area.

As for Lombardic Language - when it arrived in Italy it was not the language they departed with, it only lasted until the 10th century and was replaced with a north italian language ( merged) , 2 centuries later easter Lombardy started to convert to venetian and this lasted into the 19th century. When eastern lombardy was lost to venice, the lombardic term for its language was changed to be called Milanese langauge and that is what it called today.
The language was inferior and gave way to an italic form. IF it was western germanic it would ahve retained its prestige even more so as its northern neighbors where germanic



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they are part of the Vindili group, there eastern neighbours are the burgundians who are east-germanic , the aviones and carini, there northern neighbours are east-germanic.


 
The frequency off I1 and I2b in Italy is not necessarily linked to a Germanic presence, many Sardinians belong to haplogroup I, and some of them, in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, were literally "bought" by the various Italian states for thickening populations of some depressed areas, is therefore likely that many of these stem from the Sardinians in Italy. Anyway I haplogroup is also common in earlier times to the coming of the Indo-Europeans, so it is very likely that only a small part of the frequency of I in Italy belongs to the Germans.
I should add that in Italy to find a Nordic characters is very difficult, the biondismo (blonde hair), although reasonably common, is associated with anthropological mediterranean, or whataver indo-european, characteristics (shape of the face, skin color etc. ..).
Sorry?
blond hairs are not reasonably common in Italy: it runs from <1% in Sardigna to 16% in tyrolian region or in Dolomites, passing by 1-2% only in Sicily (and yet Sicily is not 100% homogenous neither for pigmentation not for metrics, nor for DNA) and South Italy, by 3-4% in Central Italy (with local variations), 5-6% in Emilia (Romagna darker), 8% in Piemonte, 10-11% in Lombardia, S-Veneto, 12-13% in Friul (an hazard? = the same % in the most of Slovenia)... so it begins to be a "common" thing only int the most northern parts of Italy (a 10% of blond phenotype corresponds roughly to a 30-35% of the principal pigmentation genes being 'blond' bearer (its to say: an important enough part of the population, contrary to the South case -
for the argument blond people don't show nordic features, I find that very funny: in a mixed population, genes are exchanged and a man heritate some traits from a source and other traits from other sources: but statistically, Northern Italy show people with nordic features (cranial and body well determined traits, too long to explain here) and other people with mixed features where nordic accretions can be found, all that among little more numerous people showing other features -what was written and I agree is that a little part of the population of the northern "blond" regions of Italy can be associated wirh (upon the 'nordic' source) an other blond phenotype, more bracycephalic and showing common traits with some German minoritary traits we can find also in Western Norway and other parts of the germanic world, features that was found in Europe south-west the Baltic Sea 5000/6000 years ago yet (and after that in a little proportion among Belgae Celts)
when a phenotype is overrun by more numerous other ones, it's rare finding a majority of the paradigm features in the same individual - it's evident -
for the Y-I in Italy, ireland and elsewhere it would be interesting to see what Nordtvedt say about the repartition of their subclades...
for the meaning of 'mediterranean' do keep in mind that 'nordic' is put into this classification by some scholars, giving way to misunderstandings
 
i am looking for this lombardic discreation and could only find it came from one man Werner Betz

as some scholars believe, Lombardic was an East Germanic language and not part of the German language dialect continuum, it is possible that parallel shifts took place independently in German and Lombardic. However the extant words in Lombardic show clear relations to Bavarian. Therefore Werner Betz and others prefer to treat Lombardic as an Old High German dialect. There were close connections between Lombards and Proto-Bavarians: The Lombards settled until 568 in 'Tullner Feld' (about 50 km west of Vienna); some Lombard graves (excavated a few years ago when a new railway line was built) date after 568; it is evident that not all Lombards went to Italy in 568. The rest seem to have become part of the then newly formed Bavarian groups.

considering this article above , he noted there language when they lived with the bavarians near Vienna ( Bavarians )
 
Taking into account the history records, current distribution of haplogroups in Europe the East Germanic people were predominantly R1a-z280 and surely not U-152.
 
Taking into account the history records, current distribution of haplogroups in Europe the East Germanic people were predominantly R1a-z280 and surely not U-152.

i would agree , and since the angles where the lombards north west neighbours ( on the map ) it would be essentail to find if the angles who migrated to england had the same R1a


Also, on the map which indicate purely germanic tribes, there are no bavarians ( or I do not know what they where originally called ). there are the Vindelicians who live east of Lake Venetic ( Lake Constance) .

The alemanni would be the old swabians and germanic swiss, or the narisci ?
Either way , the lombards would not have had U-152 but where given U-152 once arriving in Italy
 
Lombard personal names are similar to Bavarian (High German) names often ending in -PRAND or -PERT.
eg
Liutprand, Ansprand, Erchempert, Prand, Walprand, Ansoald, Alboin, Rodepert, Hildeprand, Rachipert, Ratchis,Auripert, Roppert, Adelpert, Cospert, Gundolprand, Faroald, Hildepert, Garipald, Eriprand and scores of others.

Nicoletta Onesti's study of personal names in Lombard Tuscany found 44 per cent Longobard (Germanic) names, 30 pc Latin, 22pc Longobard with the Latin -ULUS ending and 4 per cent hybrid (eg Flavipert).
 
Lombard personal names are similar to Bavarian (High German) names often ending in -PRAND or -PERT.
eg
Liutprand, Ansprand, Erchempert, Prand, Walprand, Ansoald, Alboin, Rodepert, Hildeprand, Rachipert, Ratchis,Auripert, Roppert, Adelpert, Cospert, Gundolprand, Faroald, Hildepert, Garipald, Eriprand and scores of others.

Nicoletta Onesti's study of personal names in Lombard Tuscany found 44 per cent Longobard (Germanic) names, 30 pc Latin, 22pc Longobard with the Latin -ULUS ending and 4 per cent hybrid (eg Flavipert).

And there cities in Italy ended with 'engo' , while in germany it ended in 'ingen'.

What do we make of this word association?

considering bavarian evolved not much earlierthan the lombard migrations it does not indicate much to me.
Besides the term high-german does not indicate an elite status it only indicates german from the alps, that is mountainous german language.

who taught who these few high german words?
 
And there cities in Italy ended with 'engo' , while in germany it ended in 'ingen'.

What do we make of this word association?

considering bavarian evolved not much earlierthan the lombard migrations it does not indicate much to me.
Besides the term high-german does not indicate an elite status it only indicates german from the alps, that is mountainous german language.

who taught who these few high german words?

You do not understand.

Langobard personal names were not East Germanic like Gothic names but West Germanic like those of Bavarians.

Case closed.
 
You do not understand.

Langobard personal names were not East Germanic like Gothic names but West Germanic like those of Bavarians.

Case closed.

not closed for me. Besides you are being silly

Some venetian merchants/citizens had the name for John as Zuan or Zaum ( which is spanish), yet the word in Venetian for John is Zane.
example, like Zuan Cabotto ( john cabot) , do we say these many venetians who used that name are spanish?

BTW for interest, Zuan Cabotto is what he signed in the english documents , not john cabot!

Until you show that the lombards language in germany is west-germanic then its all fantasy.
Lets take some logic, the lombards came from scandza sweden as the vanili , this scandza along with ostergotten, vastergotten and gotland are where the gothswent to came from in sweden. Is it not logical that they spoke similar tongue
 
not closed for me. Besides you are being silly

Some venetian merchants/citizens had the name for John as Zuan or Zaum ( which is spanish), yet the word in Venetian for John is Zane.
example, like Zuan Cabotto ( john cabot) , do we say these many venetians who used that name are spanish?

BTW for interest, Zuan Cabotto is what he signed in the english documents , not john cabot!

This is a fallacy, because no matter how a name is rendered, you don't change the name in accordance to Germanic sound laws. If the Langobardic names in the medieval were no adhereing to the second germanic sound shift, scholars likely would have noted that. What incentive would scholars of the time have had to render names according to the Second Germanic Sound Shift if the Langobardic language itself didn't apply to that? Occam's razor does not agree with your interpretation.

Until you show that the lombards language in germany is west-germanic then its all fantasy.

I've already provided evidence, both from Langobardic names and from modern Italic loanwords which are presumably of Langobardic origin. I admit that the evidence is scarce, but you seem to be willing to reject all available evidence that exists. At this point I would like to reiterate that there is no evidence that the Langobards spoke an East Germanic language.

Lets take some logic, the lombards came from scandza sweden as the vanili , this scandza along with ostergotten, vastergotten and gotland are where the gothswent to came from in sweden. Is it not logical that they spoke similar tongue

By your logic, the Langobards should have been speaking a North Germanic (ie, Scandinavian) language. But really, you are confusing the time frame here: the Langobards are attested by Strabo and Tacitus in the 1st century AD in northern Germany. At this time, the Germanic languages were not differenciated yet into the later branches: this occured only by the 4th century AD. Due to their location at that time, there's little other possibility than to assume that they spoke what would become West Germanic. So even if the Langobards migrated to the area of northern Germany from Scandinavia, by they time they did, they would have either spoken Proto-Germanic, or perhaps even Pre-Proto-Germanic.
 
not closed for me. Besides you are being silly

Some venetian merchants/citizens had the name for John as Zuan or Zaum ( which is spanish), yet the word in Venetian for John is Zane.
example, like Zuan Cabotto ( john cabot) , do we say these many venetians who used that name are spanish?

BTW for interest, Zuan Cabotto is what he signed in the english documents , not john cabot!

Until you show that the lombards language in germany is west-germanic then its all fantasy.
Lets take some logic, the lombards came from scandza sweden as the vanili , this scandza along with ostergotten, vastergotten and gotland are where the gothswent to came from in sweden. Is it not logical that they spoke similar tongue

Is this your proof?

The Longobards had West Germanic personal names so they must have belonged to that language group.

The Goths had East Germanic personal names as they spoke East Germanic.

It's simple enough, surely?
 

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