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Thread: Lombard DNA in Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Honestly, the idea that R1b-U152 is supposedly exclusively East Germanic does not make sense, either. How do you explain British U152? It cannot be Germanic in any way, since there's virtually no R1b-U152 in the homeland of the Anglo-Saxons. Furthermore, there never was any East Germanic presence in Britain.

    In my opinion, the most plausible hypothesis is that U152 can be originally tied with the Urnfield Culture of Bronze Age, and that the cummulative effect of later history explains the rest.
    There is really no problem there, at all..

    I dont think you would see any significant U-152 / s28 in modern english populations if not for a little thing called the Norman Invasion.
    The total U-152 presence in Britain is what.. 3-4% (if even that) of the modern English Y-dna? The Normans included a composite of almost every French regional population but in particular the Flemings, Northern French, and in all these regions of France you have a giant army of Goths who led the attack against the Hunnic army.

    As time wore on, these Goths and their related migrating populations became part of the Frankish nation, and thus part of its tributaries including modern French, Belgian and Fleming/Dutch populations - The bowmen of the low countries in particular was critical to the Normans and all these ethnicities received a share of the Gothic and eastern germanic forces genetics in their ancestries.

    Thus, a small portion of modern 'norman'-descended english are going to have Frankish ancestry from these Gothic/eastern germanic components that merged into the Frankish nation, and share the same migrations and originate from the same regions in the east as the Lombardy U-152 settlers.

    If a man should commit an immorality with a female slave ''belonging to thenations'' he must pay her lord twenty solidi, if with a Roman, twelve solidi, the Roman bond-woman
    being of less value than the slave of Teutonic or other origin. This is the only reference to Romans as
    such in Rothari's laws. If a slave or aldius married a free Langobard woman, her relatives had a right to
    slay her or sell her and divide her substance.
    The Lombardic germanics passed what were in effect racial laws, that did not offer the same protection to Italians within the Po Valley, and in particular punished any italian male who married or consorted with a germanic female. Thus, its not likely that a majority genetic component of this races Y-dna would account for the vast majority of the male Y-lines in the Po Valley, unless it was from a larger Italic population that reinforced itself from the Byzantine/Roman-held lands over time..

    the problem with that scenario is, these outlying populations do not show that high a pct for U-152, and as with the Swiss lands at 15-20% U-152 actually look like they are Recieving U-152 from the Po Valley male rulers, as opposed to being the well-spring of this Y-dna into the germanic held regions.

    The Romans had then no courage
    to resist because the pestilence which occurred at the time of Narses had destroyed very many in Liguria
    and Venetia, and after the year of plenty of which we spoke, a great famine attacked and devastated all
    Italy. It is certain that Alboin then brought with him to Italy many men from various peoples which either
    other kings or he himself had taken. Whence, even until today, we call the villages in which they dwell
    Gepidan, Bulgarian, Sarmatian, Pannonian, Suabian, Norican, or by other names of this kind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    I hope you are not suggesting that R-152 in the Po valley comes from Germanic invaders and even East Germanic invaders since the Byzantines destroyed most of the Ostrogothic nation in Italy in the war of AD 535-553. Only a few Gothic personal names survive in documents from the subsequent Byzantine Exarchate of Ravenna. The Ostrogoths were dead as a nation.
    There is a huge problem with the attribution Goth, because from ancient historians until now, there is constant confusion and misrepresentation about calling "Getae" by the term "Goth" and vice versa-

    I will come back to this in a moment, but first this=

    At the close of the 4th century AD, Claudian, court poet to the emperor Honorius and the patrician Stilicho, habitually uses the ethnonym Getae to refer poetically to the Visigoths. During 5th and 6th centuries, several writers (Marcellinus Comes, Orosius, John Lydus, Isidore of Seville, Procopius of Caesarea) used the same ethnonym Getae to name populations invading the Eastern Roman Empire. In the third book of the History of the Wars Procopius details: "There were many Gothic nations in earlier times, just as also at the present, but the greatest and most important of all are the Goths, Vandals, Visigoths, and Gepaedes. In ancient times, however, they were named Sauromatae and Melanchlaeni; and there were some too who called these nations Getic."[49]
    The Getae were also assumed to be the ancestors of the Goths by Jordanes in his Getica written at the middle of the 6th century.
    The factuality of a lot of the attributions from these ancient sources, who in many cases are merely passing along tales that they are told and have weak factual basis is shown in that the homeland of the 'Goths' who invade Italy happens to be virtually identical to the homelands of the Getae, who were long purported a Dacian tribe (who are tall, with red and blonde hair) and lived on the steppes of Southern Ukraine for time immemorial -

    Then we consider this=

    Hodgkin (V, 99) adds that it is hopeless to get any
    possible scheme of Lombard chronology out of these early chapters of Paul; that his narrative would
    place the migration from Scandinavia about A. D. 320, whereas the Langobards were dwelling south of
    the Baltic at the birth of Christ; that he represents Agelmund, whose place in the narrative makes it
    impossible to fix his date later than 350, as slain in battle by the Bulgarians, who first appeared in Europe
    about 479.
    The chronology of the Lombards migration tales is either badly misreprented along a time line, or its simply made up.. it does not actually fit in any way shape of form the possible timeline that it reports. Entire portions of the Lombards residence in vastly opposite regions of the European continent are impossible to work, in fact.

    NOW WE COME TO THIS=

    [1] Mommsen calls attention (p. 75) to the close relation of the Gothic and Langobard legends. The
    Goths wandered from the island of Scandia, where many nations dwell (Jordanes, Ch. 3), among them
    the Vinoviloth, who may be the Winnili. From there the Goths sailed upon three vessels under their king
    Berich to the mainland (Ch. 4, 17). The first people they encountered in battle were the Vandals (Ch. 4).
    Further on the Amazons were introduced,
    and Mommsen concludes (p. 76): "It may be that these Langobard and Gothic traditions are both fragments of a great legend of the origin of the whole German people or that the Gothic story-teller has stirred the Langobard to the making of similar fables. Hodgkin (V, 98) also notices the similarity of Langobard history to that of the Goths, as told by Jordanes.
    The migration tales that do not fit into the timelines they offer are effectively the same tale being told between both the Gothic and the Lombardic populations. These seem to be a tale created and embraced to create a communal history for warring Germanic tribal populations in this era, as opposed to literal factual occurrences. A tribal population could even be germanified by giving their tribe a name and history that accords with this communal myth.

    NEXT=

    Therefore the Langobards, coming at last into Mauringa, in order that they might increase the number oftheir warriors, confer liberty upon many whom they deliver from the yoke of bondage, and that the
    freedom of these may be regarded as established, they confirm it in their accustomed way by an arrow,
    uttering certain words of their country in confirmation of the fact.[1] Then the Langobards went forth
    from Mauringa and came to Golanda, [2] where, having remained some time, they are afterwards said to
    have possessed for some years Anthaib [3] and Banthaib, [4] and in like manner Vurgundaib
    I do not believe that the 'Goths' or 'Lombards' ever touched ancestral foot in Scandinavia.. I think they are the same Blonde/Red haired 'Getae' who had been present in the Southern Ukraine going back into pre-history. I think they adopt the Germanic cultural/tribal foundation myths that are held in common with other tribal germanic populations at this time.

    This is also why=

    reasons why the Lombards disappear, as such, from Roman history from 166–489 could be that they dwelt so deep into Inner Germania that they were detectable only when they appeared on the Danubian banks again, or that the Lombards were also subjected into a bigger tribal union, most probably the Saxons.[33]
    There is not guarantee that the tribe in eastern romania later calling itself 'Lombards' is the same tribal population referred to in the First century A.D., and in fact its probable they are not.. Such a case occured with the 'Avars' name being used by asiatic but non-Avar populations,
    resulting in their being exposed to the Byzantines as fakes, and called thereafter "Psuedo-Avars".
    You are encountering creation myths in which populations are re-creating themselves and establishing linkage to neighboring cultures or community.

    What you are likely seeing is a very dangerous world, in which any population could face being exterminated or enslaved over their campfire that evening, and in which these populations are seeking some alliance and brotherhood probably based upon Phenotype (appearance) similarity when possible.. and they create a history to establish this fraternity between them..

    I think the Lombards and the Goths, the ones who are actually reported of in history- from the movement out of Pannonia- were part of the Getae and they were in that area for a long time.
    As that world became a war zone with asia moving west, they recreated themselves and may have even been speaking a Germanic language from earlier time to begin with, making the process easier to do..
    beyond a couple vague Tactitus tribal mentions in the First century A.D., the Lombards disappear from history entirely until suddenly arising in the east.. AT LEAST IN NAME.

    This is admittedly theory, and I offer it as theory, but it is also based on historical citations and dissection of those citations as above.. the core issue here is,
    be careful in this time period with these tales, because they do not fit together in the light of their timelines, they are the same tale historically, for both the Lombards and Goths of this era, and they are routine both lumped into the Getae over the course of this time frame, who ARE without question quite indigenous a population to the eastern steppes..

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    Quote Originally Posted by corinth View Post
    There is a huge problem with the attribution Goth, because from ancient historians until now, there is constant confusion and misrepresentation about calling "Getae" by the term "Goth" and vice versa-

    I will come back to this in a moment, but first this=



    The factuality of a lot of the attributions from these ancient sources, who in many cases are merely passing along tales that they are told and have weak factual basis is shown in that the homeland of the 'Goths' who invade Italy happens to be virtually identical to the homelands of the Getae, who were long purported a Dacian tribe (who are tall, with red and blonde hair) and lived on the steppes of Southern Ukraine for time immemorial -

    Then we consider this=



    The chronology of the Lombards migration tales is either badly misreprented along a time line, or its simply made up.. it does not actually fit in any way shape of form the possible timeline that it reports. Entire portions of the Lombards residence in vastly opposite regions of the European continent are impossible to work, in fact.

    NOW WE COME TO THIS=



    The migration tales that do not fit into the timelines they offer are effectively the same tale being told between both the Gothic and the Lombardic populations. These seem to be a tale created and embraced to create a communal history for warring Germanic tribal populations in this era, as opposed to literal factual occurrences. A tribal population could even be germanified by giving their tribe a name and history that accords with this communal myth.

    NEXT=



    I do not believe that the 'Goths' or 'Lombards' ever touched ancestral foot in Scandinavia.. I think they are the same Blonde/Red haired 'Getae' who had been present in the Southern Ukraine going back into pre-history. I think they adopt the Germanic cultural/tribal foundation myths that are held in common with other tribal germanic populations at this time.

    This is also why=



    There is not guarantee that the tribe in eastern romania later calling itself 'Lombards' is the same tribal population referred to in the First century A.D., and in fact its probable they are not.. Such a case occured with the 'Avars' name being used by asiatic but non-Avar populations,
    resulting in their being exposed to the Byzantines as fakes, and called thereafter "Psuedo-Avars".
    You are encountering creation myths in which populations are re-creating themselves and establishing linkage to neighboring cultures or community.

    What you are likely seeing is a very dangerous world, in which any population could face being exterminated or enslaved over their campfire that evening, and in which these populations are seeking some alliance and brotherhood probably based upon Phenotype (appearance) similarity when possible.. and they create a history to establish this fraternity between them..

    I think the Lombards and the Goths, the ones who are actually reported of in history- from the movement out of Pannonia- were part of the Getae and they were in that area for a long time.
    As that world became a war zone with asia moving west, they recreated themselves and may have even been speaking a Germanic language from earlier time to begin with, making the process easier to do..
    beyond a couple vague Tactitus tribal mentions in the First century A.D., the Lombards disappear from history entirely until suddenly arising in the east.. AT LEAST IN NAME.

    This is admittedly theory, and I offer it as theory, but it is also based on historical citations and dissection of those citations as above.. the core issue here is,
    be careful in this time period with these tales, because they do not fit together in the light of their timelines, they are the same tale historically, for both the Lombards and Goths of this era, and they are routine both lumped into the Getae over the course of this time frame, who ARE without question quite indigenous a population to the eastern steppes..
    you should discard all things written by Jordanes as he was a goth, he stole his written historical data from another man, cappidorous and in less than a week distorted the truth. The are many scholars who have written about jordanes fantasies
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    you should discard all things written by Jordanes as he was a goth, he stole his written historical data from another man, cappidorous and in less than a week distorted the truth. The are many scholars who have written about jordanes fantasies
    Agreed.

    Furthermore, Corinth's views on the origins of R1b-U152 in Northern Italy are the purest fantasy and I suspect he has some odd agenda.

    R1b-U152 in the Po valley dates mainly from the Urnfields people in and around the Swiss Alps not later Germanic invaders of whatever linguistic type.

    Corinth should try finding masses of Germanic-looking types in modern Northern Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by corinth View Post
    There is a huge problem with the attribution Goth, because from ancient historians until now, there is constant confusion and misrepresentation about calling "Getae" by the term "Goth" and vice versa-

    I will come back to this in a moment, but first this=



    The factuality of a lot of the attributions from these ancient sources, who in many cases are merely passing along tales that they are told and have weak factual basis is shown in that the homeland of the 'Goths' who invade Italy happens to be virtually identical to the homelands of the Getae, who were long purported a Dacian tribe (who are tall, with red and blonde hair) and lived on the steppes of Southern Ukraine for time immemorial -

    Then we consider this=



    The chronology of the Lombards migration tales is either badly misreprented along a time line, or its simply made up.. it does not actually fit in any way shape of form the possible timeline that it reports. Entire portions of the Lombards residence in vastly opposite regions of the European continent are impossible to work, in fact.

    NOW WE COME TO THIS=



    The migration tales that do not fit into the timelines they offer are effectively the same tale being told between both the Gothic and the Lombardic populations. These seem to be a tale created and embraced to create a communal history for warring Germanic tribal populations in this era, as opposed to literal factual occurrences. A tribal population could even be germanified by giving their tribe a name and history that accords with this communal myth.

    NEXT=



    I do not believe that the 'Goths' or 'Lombards' ever touched ancestral foot in Scandinavia.. I think they are the same Blonde/Red haired 'Getae' who had been present in the Southern Ukraine going back into pre-history. I think they adopt the Germanic cultural/tribal foundation myths that are held in common with other tribal germanic populations at this time.

    This is also why=



    There is not guarantee that the tribe in eastern romania later calling itself 'Lombards' is the same tribal population referred to in the First century A.D., and in fact its probable they are not.. Such a case occured with the 'Avars' name being used by asiatic but non-Avar populations,
    resulting in their being exposed to the Byzantines as fakes, and called thereafter "Psuedo-Avars".
    You are encountering creation myths in which populations are re-creating themselves and establishing linkage to neighboring cultures or community.

    What you are likely seeing is a very dangerous world, in which any population could face being exterminated or enslaved over their campfire that evening, and in which these populations are seeking some alliance and brotherhood probably based upon Phenotype (appearance) similarity when possible.. and they create a history to establish this fraternity between them..

    I think the Lombards and the Goths, the ones who are actually reported of in history- from the movement out of Pannonia- were part of the Getae and they were in that area for a long time.
    As that world became a war zone with asia moving west, they recreated themselves and may have even been speaking a Germanic language from earlier time to begin with, making the process easier to do..
    beyond a couple vague Tactitus tribal mentions in the First century A.D., the Lombards disappear from history entirely until suddenly arising in the east.. AT LEAST IN NAME.

    This is admittedly theory, and I offer it as theory, but it is also based on historical citations and dissection of those citations as above.. the core issue here is,
    be careful in this time period with these tales, because they do not fit together in the light of their timelines, they are the same tale historically, for both the Lombards and Goths of this era, and they are routine both lumped into the Getae over the course of this time frame, who ARE without question quite indigenous a population to the eastern steppes..
    you fail to comprehend, that migrating people pick up other haplo types on there travels, take the goths - from east-germany to sweden to gotland to vistula delta to the balck sea, around the balkans and then italy.
    they assimilated the following that I know, swedes, gotlanders, venedi, aestii, heruli, peucini, bastanae, sarmatians, dacian, getae and I still have not entered the balkans.
    How many different haplo types are there in this "gothic" contingent?

    The lombards are similar

    Carrying one huge percentage of haplo tpye with 1 tribe is pure fantasy

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    you fail to comprehend, that migrating people pick up other haplo types on there travels, take the goths - from east-germany to sweden to gotland to vistula delta to the balck sea, around the balkans and then italy.
    they assimilated the following that I know, swedes, gotlanders, venedi, aestii, heruli, peucini, bastanae, sarmatians, dacian, getae and I still have not entered the balkans.
    How many different haplo types are there in this "gothic" contingent?

    The lombards are similar

    Carrying one huge percentage of haplo tpye with 1 tribe is pure fantasy
    You are also backed by physical anthropology as to the mixed nature of the Lombard invaders.

    Istvan Kiszely found no less than SIXTEEN different phenotypes in Lombard cemeteries of the 6th and 7th century in central Europe and Italy.

    Nordic and partly Nordic types were generally commoner north of the Alps than in Italy in Lombard cemeteries.

    "Lombard" was more of a legal term than an ethnic one.

    SOURCE: Anthropology of the Lombards by I.Kiszely (1979).

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    Quote Originally Posted by corinth View Post
    There is really no problem there, at all..

    I dont think you would see any significant U-152 / s28 in modern english populations if not for a little thing called the Norman Invasion.
    The total U-152 presence in Britain is what.. 3-4% (if even that) of the modern English Y-dna? The Normans included a composite of almost every French regional population but in particular the Flemings, Northern French, and in all these regions of France you have a giant army of Goths who led the attack against the Hunnic army.

    As time wore on, these Goths and their related migrating populations became part of the Frankish nation, and thus part of its tributaries including modern French, Belgian and Fleming/Dutch populations - The bowmen of the low countries in particular was critical to the Normans and all these ethnicities received a share of the Gothic and eastern germanic forces genetics in their ancestries.

    Thus, a small portion of modern 'norman'-descended english are going to have Frankish ancestry from these Gothic/eastern germanic components that merged into the Frankish nation, and share the same migrations and originate from the same regions in the east as the Lombardy U-152 settlers.
    You're wrong regarding the percentage of U152 in Britain. I would say that it is closer to 5% on average in Britain, and it exceeds 10% in eastern England and the Scottish lowlands.

    In any case, your idea to tie U152 with the Norman invasion does not make sense in the slightest. First, there is no evidence that the Norman invasion was tied in any shape with a large-scale population replacement, and second your assumption that such large tracts of the Frankish population were purportedly Gothic-descended lacks any basis in history. The most sensible explanation for British U152 really is the iron age invasion/immigration. You could also assume that there might be some U152 from the Roman period, but it's doubtful that it arrived later.

    No offense, but the claim that 10% of the male population of the Scottish lowlands are descended from Gothic-descended Normans seems quite absurd.

    The Lombardic germanics passed what were in effect racial laws, that did not offer the same protection to Italians within the Po Valley, and in particular punished any italian male who married or consorted with a germanic female. Thus, its not likely that a majority genetic component of this races Y-dna would account for the vast majority of the male Y-lines in the Po Valley, unless it was from a larger Italic population that reinforced itself from the Byzantine/Roman-held lands over time..
    Huh, what? Can you cite any source for such an outlandish statement?

    the problem with that scenario is, these outlying populations do not show that high a pct for U-152, and as with the Swiss lands at 15-20% U-152 actually look like they are Recieving U-152 from the Po Valley male rulers, as opposed to being the well-spring of this Y-dna into the germanic held regions.
    That's a fallacy. We necessarily cannot assume that the areas where Y-Haplogroups are most frequent today are those where the Haplogroup originated.
    Last edited by Taranis; 04-02-12 at 15:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Agreed.

    Furthermore, Corinth's views on the origins of R1b-U152 in Northern Italy are the purest fantasy and I suspect he has some odd agenda.
    R1b-U152 in the Po valley dates mainly from the Urnfields people in and around the Swiss Alps not later Germanic invaders of whatever linguistic type.
    Corinth should try finding masses of Germanic-looking types in modern Northern Italy.
    My one "view" that I present as fact is that U-152 has one lone concentration in Europe, and excepting Bashkortastan, no other locality on earth has the concentration of U-152 that the Po Valley contains.

    Thus, it is senseless prejudice to suggest that the last major settlement of that region is not one of the most probably causes for its concentration. As I said previously, if you have hard genetic evidence to counter that, then present it. If you dont, then admit so, and simply adopt what a eariler poster conceded, in that he merely "believes" and his assertions are faith-based "Belief" in nature..

    Arguing over 'germanic-looking' types and whatnot is really not even a valuable remark worthy of any response, frankly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    you fail to comprehend, that migrating people pick up other haplo types on there travels, take the goths - How many different haplo types are there in this "gothic" contingent? The lombards are similar
    Carrying one huge percentage of haplo tpye with 1 tribe is pure fantasy
    I think you are missing the forest for the trees..

    I 'fail to comprehend' nothing of the sort, you fail to read or digest what I posted in the very posts you responded to.. Maybe I fail to fully explain what I am suggesting for that matter..

    If you read back to my posts from yesterday, I am the one citing ancient sources mentioning the various tribes and broken portions of tribes that composed the "Lombard" invasion force into the Po Valley. Earlier, I was told by posters that the Lombards genetically could not contain gothic (or what I would assert was actually 'getae-getic' elements) in their genetics because the Goths are a spent, broken and unrelated force.

    I showed you where, inspite the naming/tribal conventions, these are effectively tribal bodies of similar eastern genetics, and their own histories are impossible to be true..
    In my estimation, they made no migrations from scandinavia, they are likely all elements of the Europid-getae / Massagetae who are Europid in appearance going back to their earliest descriptions, a millenia before any of these events in Pannonia and the Po Valley.
    The appearances of these populations being like european tribes- a 'white' population phenotype- they created and adopted the same myths in these tribes they encounter as they move west to explain their brotherhood to continental europid populations-

    Since even in 400 a.d. the "north" was equated with white/europid populations, they placed their origin from the farthest north.
    This is no different that the Roman/Italian founding myth of Romulus and remus suckled by a she wolf and being noble immigrants who managed to escape the slaughter inside the walls of Troy.

    As I ALSO noted and QUOTED in my previous post, many of those non-eastern populations who participated in this migration/invasion of the Po Valley were not of these eastern genetics, and like the Bavarians and Saxons were only interested in the sack, rapine, and loot.. they left enmasse from Italy soon after they were prevented from further looting or rapine.

    Thus, while you did have diverse populations that participate, most of them are not there for the goal of finding a nice homestead and running a farm and raising kids. They are there for the opportunity of the conquest, and they are not intent to stay or make this their place of residence.

    A Gepid, Vandal, Thuringian, Heruli, Lombard, Goth..etc.. (most of these are effectively genetically Getic/getae factions, imo) also have another huge incentive to materially alter their "history" and create a heroic and false one in its stead..

    This reason is, in post Chalons' Europe, these are populations that were enslaved and often lackies of the Hunnic Asiatics who had been at last defeated by the Visigothic coalition. For this reason, the tale of the Lombards heroically overthrowing their Hunnic conquerors is not so neccesarily heroic in the reality that they overthrew a defeated and retreating Hun, that they had previously been slaves to.

    So, the impossible myth that is presented of a migration with a fake timeline from Scandinavia for both the Lombards and Goths populations serves to obscure the fact that they are actually Getae who lived in the east all along, (U-152 is found as far east in residual populations as Bashkortostan), they had been subject to the Hunnic forces,
    and they adopted titles in some cases (transliterated 'lombard') that are heroic tribal names of renown in this time, claiming this history as best they can imagine it, in a way that people today wear a sports jersey of a famous and skilled athlete or professional sports team, to identify and coalesce their identity with this success.

    The only population that was really intent on making a homeland out of the Po Valley were the Lombardics and their subject eastern germanics (heruli, gepids etc..) and these as probable divisions of the eastern Getae gene pool would be very consistent genetically across all of their populations, as all were retreating toward a phenotypically Europid populated region, which was no longer the case in their now hostile steppes. They only account for roughly 1/2 the Po Valley Y-lines which leaves plently of other non-U152 Y-lines in modern populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    You're wrong regarding the percentage of U152 in Britain. I would say that it is closer to 5% on average in Britain, and it exceeds 10% in eastern England and the Scottish lowlands.
    The OVERALL presence in England of U-152 by my offhand guess was 3-4%
    YOUR offhand estimate (maybe more researched than mine, quite possibly) was 4-5%

    Do you really feel that the extra 1% of U-152 in the overall population is really a significant advantage to your argument, because that is all you are gaining!

    Suggesting that in one or a couple particular english counties that the pct goes up to 10% U-152 is effectively the same argument I am making and that you are opposing as pertains to a mild genetic bottleneck in localities adjoining the Po Valley settlements that could not likely explain the SOURCE of U-152 that exists in the Po Valley, but could explain a mild founder effect for Y-lines coming out of the large pool in the Po Valley.

    In either case, I showed you what you asked, which was a route that is known, documented, and historical in which Visigothic and eastern germanic elements that 'win' portions of Gaul and the modern low countries come to be part of the later Lotharingians and Norman invasion forces, as well as norman traders, settlers, workers, imported after the invasion.

    The fact that you dont want to acknowledge this route is your decision but does not negate that it exists, and that the pool of U-152 that we need to account for in the modern English population is a tiny part of the English gene pool..

    Huh, what? Can you cite any source for such an outlandish statement?
    respectfully, read back to my posts from yesterday, and you will find citation of several Lombardic laws in effect that enforce a racial apartheid as it pertained to lombardic/germanic females and italic males-
    If you do not choose to read and respond to the actual citations that I already posted only yesterday, then please do not ask me to repost them the next day.

    That's a fallacy. We necessarily cannot assume that the areas where Y-Haplogroups are most frequent today are those where the Haplogroup originated.
    Absolutely agree on this,..
    and my point exactly is, we can not be in the business of automatically refusing such a possibility EITHER. With English U-106 not yet identified as germanic some years ago,

    many genetic 'experts' and pundits were writing books proclaiming that very little germanic or continental anglo-saxon was ever passed to the English who were a overwhelmingly Brythonic celtic population.

    WITH U-106 identified and typed to northern germanic populations into modern times, we recognize that very likely as opposed to the 20% of english R1a/I1/Q accounting for the anglo-saxons, these are probably mostly scandinavians, while another 25% of U-106 are likely the angle/jute/saxon component..
    This brings the total non-brythonic celtic ancestry in modern english to around 45% of the total male ancestry, hardly showing "little introgression" as the pundits had written. We are not even yet dealing with non-germanic/non-scandinavian isles-introgression at this 45% figure..btw.

    Without the modern frisian, jutish, danish, germanic populations continued residence over more that a millenia in their areas of frequency to this day, no one could ever connect U-106 to anglo-saxon migrations. This is the ENTIRE BASIS for this attribution.

    So, suggesting that in all cases one cannot make a genetic assumption based on which Hg is prominent in a area to this day is quite true,
    but one also cannot discount or eliminate such a case unless it is based on clear either genetic evidence or ancient Y-dna results- what is being used to derail U-152 in its anomalous homeland within the Po Valley is simple opinion, in spite of the balance of current evidence.

    This is a moot point because eventually their will be as I said before Y-dna from tooth-pulp taken from some Lombardic-cultural remains,
    and once this is amplified it will be established who is right and who is wrong, and whose belief or opinions are in conflict with genetic evidence.

    The only thing I am saying is not to write a history based on what you think, instead of what you know.

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    accidental duplicate post after eupedia logged me out after time limit. sorry.
    Last edited by corinth; 05-02-12 at 02:44. Reason: accidental duplicate post

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    Quote Originally Posted by corinth View Post
    If you read back to my posts from yesterday, I am the one citing ancient sources mentioning the various tribes and broken portions of tribes that composed the "Lombard" invasion force into the Po Valley. Earlier, I was told by posters that the Lombards genetically could not contain gothic (or what I would assert was actually 'getae-getic' elements) in their genetics because the Goths are a spent, broken and unrelated force.

    I showed you where, inspite the naming/tribal conventions, these are effectively tribal bodies of similar eastern genetics, and their own histories are impossible to be true..
    In my estimation, they made no migrations from scandinavia, they are likely all elements of the Europid-getae / Massagetae who are Europid in appearance going back to their earliest descriptions, a millenia before any of these events in Pannonia and the Po Valley.
    The appearances of these populations being like european tribes- a 'white' population phenotype- they created and adopted the same myths in these tribes they encounter as they move west to explain their brotherhood to continental europid populations-

    Since even in 400 a.d. the "north" was equated with white/europid populations, they placed their origin from the farthest north.
    This is no different that the Roman/Italian founding myth of Romulus and remus suckled by a she wolf and being noble immigrants who managed to escape the slaughter inside the walls of Troy.

    As I ALSO noted and QUOTED in my previous post, many of those non-eastern populations who participated in this migration/invasion of the Po Valley were not of these eastern genetics, and like the Bavarians and Saxons were only interested in the sack, rapine, and loot.. they left enmasse from Italy soon after they were prevented from further looting or rapine.

    Thus, while you did have diverse populations that participate, most of them are not there for the goal of finding a nice homestead and running a farm and raising kids. They are there for the opportunity of the conquest, and they are not intent to stay or make this their place of residence.

    A Gepid, Vandal, Thuringian, Heruli, Lombard, Goth..etc.. (most of these are effectively genetically Getic/getae factions, imo) also have another huge incentive to materially alter their "history" and create a heroic and false one in its stead..

    This reason is, in post Chalons' Europe, these are populations that were enslaved and often lackies of the Hunnic Asiatics who had been at last defeated by the Visigothic coalition. For this reason, the tale of the Lombards heroically overthrowing their Hunnic conquerors is not so neccesarily heroic in the reality that they overthrew a defeated and retreating Hun, that they had previously been slaves to.

    So, the impossible myth that is presented of a migration with a fake timeline from Scandinavia for both the Lombards and Goths populations serves to obscure the fact that they are actually Getae who lived in the east all along, (U-152 is found as far east in residual populations as Bashkortostan), they had been subject to the Hunnic forces,
    and they adopted titles in some cases (transliterated 'lombard') that are heroic tribal names of renown in this time, claiming this history as best they can imagine it, in a way that people today wear a sports jersey of a famous and skilled athlete or professional sports team, to identify and coalesce their identity with this success.

    The only population that was really intent on making a homeland out of the Po Valley were the Lombardics and their subject eastern germanics (heruli, gepids etc..) and these as probable divisions of the eastern Getae gene pool would be very consistent genetically across all of their populations, as all were retreating toward a phenotypically Europid populated region, which was no longer the case in their now hostile steppes. They only account for roughly 1/2 the Po Valley Y-lines which leaves plently of other non-U152 Y-lines in modern populations.
    first you did not look at my map on post#70 which clearly shows the lombards ( also note there are no bavarians at this time).

    - The getae are not the goths , they are seperated by over 300 years , and the getae are a dacian-thracian mix who served the odyssian empire in thrace. They also fought for Alexander the great.

    - The vandals as noted by some scholars are also a mix of remaining goths, lombards, burgundians, heruli and anyone else that formed this vindili confederation

    - visigoths are bascially pure goths that came from east-germany and scandonavia while the ostgoths are baltic, finnic, sami, lettish and anyone else that formed the gothic confederation after arriving in the black sea area. The split of the goths was created there.

    - The lombards never went that far east from east germany before heading to italy. They where merged into the indigenous ligurian people as well as celts.

    I clearly do not see why you ignore the fact that the lombards are germanics

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    Quote Originally Posted by corinth View Post
    My one "view" that I present as fact is that U-152 has one lone concentration in Europe, and excepting Bashkortastan, no other locality on earth has the concentration of U-152 that the Po Valley contains.

    Thus, it is senseless prejudice to suggest that the last major settlement of that region is not one of the most probably causes for its concentration. As I said previously, if you have hard genetic evidence to counter that, then present it. If you dont, then admit so, and simply adopt what a eariler poster conceded, in that he merely "believes" and his assertions are faith-based "Belief" in nature..

    Arguing over 'germanic-looking' types and whatnot is really not even a valuable remark worthy of any response, frankly.

    Obviously you have no answer to that point on phenotype and yes I know that Y-dna does not indicate phenotype.

    You are not paying attention when Zanipolo and I point out that the Lombard invaders contained not only Germanic types but Bulgars, Romanised natives of Pannonia, semi-mongoloid types contributed by Avars and every concievable type found in central Europe of the 6th century.

    It is illogical to think that this genetic melting pot could have been responsible for the high presence of R1b U-152 in northern Italy (actually higher in the mountainous areas of the Val di Non and the Garfagnana than in the actual Po valley).

    The Byzantines wiped out MOST of the Ostrogoths so their genetic influence was slight if it even was associated with any branch of R1b.

    What IS your twisted agenda (sad Nordicist?) and where is your PROOF of anything you have claimed in this whole thread?

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    R1b U152 highest variance is not even in Central Europe were Italics and Celtic people originated but in South East France.
    To me U152 in northern Italy is clearly of Ligurian origin who themselves originated with the Southern French Bell Beakers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    R1b U152 highest variance is not even in Central Europe were Italics and Celtic people originated but in South East France.
    To me U152 in northern Italy is clearly of Ligurian origin who themselves originated with the Southern French Bell Beakers.
    A Ligurian or Ligurian/Rhaetian origin for R1b-U152 is very likely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    R1b U152 highest variance is not even in Central Europe were Italics and Celtic people originated but in South East France.
    To me U152 in northern Italy is clearly of Ligurian origin who themselves originated with the Southern French Bell Beakers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    A Ligurian or Ligurian/Rhaetian origin for R1b-U152 is very likely.
    The problem is that we cannot be sure about the actual ethnolinguistic identity of the Ligurians and the Raetians.

    About the former, very little is known about their language, and as a result they have been variously grouped as non-Indo-European, Indo-European (but non-Celtic) and Celtic. What is clear is that by the time the Ligurians are mentioned in ancient sources, they are seemingly already heavily Celticized.

    With the latter, they did seemingly not constitute a homogenous group. The language of the so-called "Raetian" inscriptions is similar to the Etruscan language, but it is unclear (and indeed unlikely) if it was spoken by the people that the Romans called "Raeti". Many of the "Raetic" tribes are apparently Celtic or otherwise Indo-European. There are also the Cammuni, who spoke a language which may have been completely unrelated with either Etruscan or IE.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The problem is that we cannot be sure about the actual ethnolinguistic identity of the Ligurians and the Raetians.

    About the former, very little is known about their language, and as a result they have been variously grouped as non-Indo-European, Indo-European (but non-Celtic) and Celtic. What is clear is that by the time the Ligurians are mentioned in ancient sources, they are seemingly already heavily Celticized.

    With the latter, they did seemingly not constitute a homogenous group. The language of the so-called "Raetian" inscriptions is similar to the Etruscan language, but it is unclear (and indeed unlikely) if it was spoken by the people that the Romans called "Raeti". Many of the "Raetic" tribes are apparently Celtic or otherwise Indo-European. There are also the Cammuni, who spoke a language which may have been completely unrelated with either Etruscan or IE.
    I think more correct model should as follows:
    1. R1b-U152 initially settled in the South France move from there farther inland in North Italy and Switzerland. Those people were called Ligurian/Rhaetian or whatever else and they were not Indo-European speaking.
    2. R1a Urnfield people from Central Europe invade in South France/Switzerland and impose themselves on R1b-152 people.
    3. Part of these R1b-152 people was Indo-Europeanized and culturally assimilated turning into Proto Celtic-Italic people: R1a Urnfield elite and predominantly R1b-U152 core.
    4. Part of these already Indo-European people move to Italy and bring IE Italic languages in Italy, others migrate farther inland: some invade Spain, some invade North France and from their to Britain and impose Celtic languages on local population R1-L21.

    I think its rather accurate scenario and surely according to this scenario there can be no U152 East Germanic people besides some small admixture accounted for migration of some Celtic people in Central Europe and slaves trade with East and North Germanic people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    I think more correct model should as follows:
    1. R1b-U152 initially settled in the South France move from there farther inland in North Italy and Switzerland. Those people were called Ligurian/Rhaetian or whatever else and they were not Indo-European speaking.
    2. R1a Urnfield people from Central Europe invade in South France/Switzerland and impose themselves on R1b-152 people.
    3. Part of these R1b-152 people was Indo-Europeanized and culturally assimilated turning into Proto Celtic-Italic people: R1a Urnfield elite and predominantly R1b-U152 core.
    4. Part of these already Indo-European people move to Italy and bring IE Italic languages in Italy, others migrate farther inland: some invade Spain, some invade North France and from their to Britain and impose Celtic languages on local population R1-L21.

    I think its rather accurate scenario and surely according to this scenario there can be no U152 East Germanic people besides some small admixture accounted for migration of some Celtic people in Central Europe and slaves trade with East and North Germanic people.
    This is a very plausible theory.

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    Gloomy Gonzalez I'm not sure for the (non?)indo-european cultural nature of the previous R-U152 - I believe as you do they were pre-indo-european people but they became indoeuropeanized (maybe at the Bell-beaker period, not being the Bell-Beakers fisrt promoters themselves (I DON'T PUT ANY MONEY ON THIS BET)- like you I see them as a numerically dominant population cristallizing in the Alps (but I'm not so precise as you, I don't tell the precise valley) among a cultural "magma" that after a previous B-B's impulse, diffentiated progressively in Celtic, Ligurian an Italic - and Venetic?- cultures not without knowing a Urnfields cultural period where more northern influences could have taken place but not changed the genetic dominance (and yet I'm sure of nothing: the Lusacian Urnfield Culture in South-Western Poland seams to gave S/S-W geographical source and not directly a W one - Lombards did a demic colonization but as others on this thread I can't imagine them becoming demographically dominant in North italy, even in the Pô plain - they modified the population partially, it's evident, but they can not have imported the majority of the R-U152 percentage - it's against common sense - surely they are responsible (with others germanic tribes) of the intensification of the R-U106 and Y-I1but the heavy presence of Y-R-U152 in East-Central Italy is for me the proof of an early italic connexion (Villanova) influenced or more surely being part of an Urnfield cultural movement - concerning BASHKIRS I'm confused by all these R-U106 people in ONLY ONE of the Bashkirland region (Myres) - It sounds curious to my ears (and brain) - I wait knowing more on that exception -

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    The first wave of Italic speakers (Q Italic speakers) originated in the Vucedol culture. I really doubt that they were R1b U152.then when Terramares people invaded northern Italy, The Apennine culture was pushed southward. In fact haplogroups EV13 and J2 in southern and Central Italy can also be attributed to the Apennine culture since it originated in what would become Illyria.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    The first wave of Italic speakers (Q Italic speakers) originated in the Vucedol culture. I really doubt that they were R1b U152.then when Terramares people invaded northern Italy, The Apennine culture was pushed southward. In fact haplogroups EV13 and J2 in southern and Central Italy can also be attributed to the Apennine culture since it originated in what would become Illyria.
    Please explain this link between Q-Italic speakers and the Vucedol Culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Please explain this link between Q-Italic speakers and the Vucedol Culture.


    The Apennine culture is thought to have originated in the Vucedol culture according to French Linguist Bernard Sergent but I don't know much.
    Like Celtic languages, Italic languages had a first stage with Q (like Latin for example). The "P" is a later innovation, maybe linked with the Urnfields.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    You are also backed by physical anthropology as to the mixed nature of the Lombard invaders.

    Istvan Kiszely found no less than SIXTEEN different phenotypes in Lombard cemeteries of the 6th and 7th century in central Europe and Italy.

    Nordic and partly Nordic types were generally commoner north of the Alps than in Italy in Lombard cemeteries.

    "Lombard" was more of a legal term than an ethnic one.
    I wanted to comment on this monstrosity above, and forgot to earlier.

    I honestly do not know which is more horrifying.. in 2012..

    1)CITING a phrenologist as a scientific source who cracked open and contaminated with modern DNA irreplaceable ancient burials so that he could 'play' at handling/measuring the skulls.. a practice in place dating back well into the middle ages at least, completely VALUELESS in any way, shape or form (EVEN THEN) and now utterly meaningless in a time of modern y-dna and mtdna population results..

    2)or the fact that so-called "authorities" in Hungary gave this absolute idiot the permission to crack open and contaminate rare ancient burials for his nonsensical skull-measuring (phrenology) that is absolutely and completely valueless, even if it were not made obsolete by modern DNA science..

    IMHO, what Kiszely was actually looking for was evidence to eliminate asiatic/mongol ancestry in precursor "Hungarian" populations.. for specific Hungarian national reasons, and to do so he forever contaminated and desecrated rare burials to serve totally unrelated ethnic/racial purposes of the time.. and sadly the Hungarian govt went along and sanctioned this.

    To cite this monstrosity with any sort of seriousness or reverence, instead of with disgust and shame, on a DNA-based board is truly beyond any sort of explanation. What Kiszely did is not only of no value to any population genetics or science, it actually was a totally necessary and deliberate act of contamination against ancient DNA that boggles the mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Obviously you have no answer to that point on phenotype and yes I know that Y-dna does not indicate phenotype.
    You have your answer below, I cant believe I forgot to respond to such a incredibly ridiculous and - I will have to say- SHAMEFUL post.
    Citing phrenology as a valid population genetics factor in 2012 basically is beyond shocking in its utter preposterousness. I shall not bother to respond to you in the future after such a outrageous reliance on a hungarian phrenologist cracking open ancient grave sites and contaminating them for this totally wasted purpose.

    You are not paying attention when Zanipolo and I point out that the Lombard invaders contained not only Germanic types but Bulgars, Romanised natives of Pannonia, semi-mongoloid types contributed by Avars and every concievable type found in central Europe of the 6th century.
    You are not paying attention where I cited Lombard sources saying that these elements came for booty, not to settle a homeland in most cases.. A lot of alien populations invade a locality for gain/slaves/loot in this era, and few actually move their families and civilian populations there to live permanently.

    It is illogical to think that this genetic melting pot could have been responsible for the high presence of R1b U-152 in northern Italy (actually higher in the mountainous areas of the Val di Non and the Garfagnana than in the actual Po valley).

    The Byzantines wiped out MOST of the Ostrogoths so their genetic influence was slight if it even was associated with any branch of R1b.
    [citation please]

    What IS your twisted agenda (sad Nordicist?) and where is your PROOF of anything you have claimed in this whole thread?
    what is your twisted agenda in manically replying to me?
    If I am fully wrong and you are completely right, why bother to constantly respond to me on a issue that you are merely a dispassionate observer? Why is it so compelling to you to need to countermand my opinion to the degree you cite wackjob phrenologists with skull measurements that would get laughed out of any genetics conference?

    what agenda do you have?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    first you did not look at my map on post#70 which clearly shows the lombards ( also note there are no bavarians at this time).
    - The getae are not the goths , they are seperated by over 300 years , and the getae are a dacian-thracian mix who served the odyssian empire in thrace. They also fought for Alexander the great.
    I think they are/were the same and the identical migrations history myths of the Goths and Lombards are a manufactured history of a people creating a mythology that links them, instead on long-standing prey and subjected populations of the Huns, to a new founding myth. This is why there is no history of these populations until they suddenly spring anew in the east in the homeland of the Getae around the 5th century.

    - The vandals as noted by some scholars are also a mix of remaining goths, lombards, burgundians, heruli and anyone else that formed this vindili confederation
    Irrelevant to any of my argument..but Ok whatever.

    - visigoths are bascially pure goths that came from east-germany and scandonavia while the ostgoths are baltic, finnic, sami, lettish and anyone else that formed the gothic confederation after arriving in the black sea area. The split of the goths was created there.
    Complete personal speculation not based on any sort of genetics evidence. while you are entitled to your personal opinion, its also completely irrelevant to this thread.

    - The lombards never went that far east from east germany before heading to italy. They where merged into the indigenous ligurian people as well as celts.
    I clearly do not see why you ignore the fact that the lombards are germanics
    I am effectively repeating the same things to even respond to this re-tread of the same arguments, which I will not fall into.
    The U-152 Y-dna is at its highest point in the Lombardic conquest lands. We have accounts I have posted here already of these Ligurian populations in particular fleeing out of there land to the Byzantines at the approach of the Lombardic host..

    Thus, unless they eventually moved back to become voluntary agricultural slaves, this U-152 majority population cant be Ligurian or ancient Italo-Celtic based, because the Lombards remark on the depopulation of the lands that they simply walk in and take, with the exception of a few fortified cities..

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