Lombard DNA in Italy

The first wave of Italic speakers (Q Italic speakers) originated in the Vucedol culture. I really doubt that they were R1b U152.
Vucedol_culture_map.png
then when Terramares people invaded northern Italy, The Apennine culture was pushed southward. In fact haplogroups EV13 and J2 in southern and Central Italy can also be attributed to the Apennine culture since it originated in what would become Illyria.

Please explain this link between Q-Italic speakers and the Vucedol Culture.
 
Please explain this link between Q-Italic speakers and the Vucedol Culture.



The Apennine culture is thought to have originated in the Vucedol culture according to French Linguist Bernard Sergent but I don't know much.
Like Celtic languages, Italic languages had a first stage with Q (like Latin for example). The "P" is a later innovation, maybe linked with the Urnfields.
 
You are also backed by physical anthropology as to the mixed nature of the Lombard invaders.

Istvan Kiszely found no less than SIXTEEN different phenotypes in Lombard cemeteries of the 6th and 7th century in central Europe and Italy.

Nordic and partly Nordic types were generally commoner north of the Alps than in Italy in Lombard cemeteries.

"Lombard" was more of a legal term than an ethnic one.

I wanted to comment on this monstrosity above, and forgot to earlier.

I honestly do not know which is more horrifying.. in 2012..

1)CITING a phrenologist as a scientific source who cracked open and contaminated with modern DNA irreplaceable ancient burials so that he could 'play' at handling/measuring the skulls.. a practice in place dating back well into the middle ages at least, completely VALUELESS in any way, shape or form (EVEN THEN) and now utterly meaningless in a time of modern y-dna and mtdna population results..

2)or the fact that so-called "authorities" in Hungary gave this absolute idiot the permission to crack open and contaminate rare ancient burials for his nonsensical skull-measuring (phrenology) that is absolutely and completely valueless, even if it were not made obsolete by modern DNA science..

IMHO, what Kiszely was actually looking for was evidence to eliminate asiatic/mongol ancestry in precursor "Hungarian" populations.. for specific Hungarian national reasons, and to do so he forever contaminated and desecrated rare burials to serve totally unrelated ethnic/racial purposes of the time.. and sadly the Hungarian govt went along and sanctioned this.

To cite this monstrosity with any sort of seriousness or reverence, instead of with disgust and shame, on a DNA-based board is truly beyond any sort of explanation. What Kiszely did is not only of no value to any population genetics or science, it actually was a totally necessary and deliberate act of contamination against ancient DNA that boggles the mind.
 
Obviously you have no answer to that point on phenotype and yes I know that Y-dna does not indicate phenotype.

You have your answer below, I cant believe I forgot to respond to such a incredibly ridiculous and - I will have to say- SHAMEFUL post.
Citing phrenology as a valid population genetics factor in 2012 basically is beyond shocking in its utter preposterousness. I shall not bother to respond to you in the future after such a outrageous reliance on a hungarian phrenologist cracking open ancient grave sites and contaminating them for this totally wasted purpose.

You are not paying attention when Zanipolo and I point out that the Lombard invaders contained not only Germanic types but Bulgars, Romanised natives of Pannonia, semi-mongoloid types contributed by Avars and every concievable type found in central Europe of the 6th century.

You are not paying attention where I cited Lombard sources saying that these elements came for booty, not to settle a homeland in most cases.. A lot of alien populations invade a locality for gain/slaves/loot in this era, and few actually move their families and civilian populations there to live permanently.

It is illogical to think that this genetic melting pot could have been responsible for the high presence of R1b U-152 in northern Italy (actually higher in the mountainous areas of the Val di Non and the Garfagnana than in the actual Po valley).

The Byzantines wiped out MOST of the Ostrogoths so their genetic influence was slight if it even was associated with any branch of R1b.

[citation please]

What IS your twisted agenda (sad Nordicist?) and where is your PROOF of anything you have claimed in this whole thread?

what is your twisted agenda in manically replying to me?
If I am fully wrong and you are completely right, why bother to constantly respond to me on a issue that you are merely a dispassionate observer? Why is it so compelling to you to need to countermand my opinion to the degree you cite wackjob phrenologists with skull measurements that would get laughed out of any genetics conference?

what agenda do you have?
 
first you did not look at my map on post#70 which clearly shows the lombards ( also note there are no bavarians at this time).
- The getae are not the goths , they are seperated by over 300 years , and the getae are a dacian-thracian mix who served the odyssian empire in thrace. They also fought for Alexander the great.

I think they are/were the same and the identical migrations history myths of the Goths and Lombards are a manufactured history of a people creating a mythology that links them, instead on long-standing prey and subjected populations of the Huns, to a new founding myth. This is why there is no history of these populations until they suddenly spring anew in the east in the homeland of the Getae around the 5th century.

- The vandals as noted by some scholars are also a mix of remaining goths, lombards, burgundians, heruli and anyone else that formed this vindili confederation

Irrelevant to any of my argument..but Ok whatever.

- visigoths are bascially pure goths that came from east-germany and scandonavia while the ostgoths are baltic, finnic, sami, lettish and anyone else that formed the gothic confederation after arriving in the black sea area. The split of the goths was created there.

Complete personal speculation not based on any sort of genetics evidence. while you are entitled to your personal opinion, its also completely irrelevant to this thread.

- The lombards never went that far east from east germany before heading to italy. They where merged into the indigenous ligurian people as well as celts.
I clearly do not see why you ignore the fact that the lombards are germanics

I am effectively repeating the same things to even respond to this re-tread of the same arguments, which I will not fall into.
The U-152 Y-dna is at its highest point in the Lombardic conquest lands. We have accounts I have posted here already of these Ligurian populations in particular fleeing out of there land to the Byzantines at the approach of the Lombardic host..

Thus, unless they eventually moved back to become voluntary agricultural slaves, this U-152 majority population cant be Ligurian or ancient Italo-Celtic based, because the Lombards remark on the depopulation of the lands that they simply walk in and take, with the exception of a few fortified cities..
 
You have your answer below, I cant believe I forgot to respond to such a incredibly ridiculous and - I will have to say- SHAMEFUL post.
Citing phrenology as a valid population genetics factor in 2012 basically is beyond shocking in its utter preposterousness. I shall not bother to respond to you in the future after such a outrageous reliance on a hungarian phrenologist cracking open ancient grave sites and contaminating them for this totally wasted purpose.



You are not paying attention where I cited Lombard sources saying that these elements came for booty, not to settle a homeland in most cases.. A lot of alien populations invade a locality for gain/slaves/loot in this era, and few actually move their families and civilian populations there to live permanently.



[citation please]



what is your twisted agenda in manically replying to me?
If I am fully wrong and you are completely right, why bother to constantly respond to me on a issue that you are merely a dispassionate observer? Why is it so compelling to you to need to countermand my opinion to the degree you cite wackjob phrenologists with skull measurements that would get laughed out of any genetics conference?

what agenda do you have?

I have never read a more deluded and incompetent series of posts as yours but then you are a pathetic Nordicist if you believe modern Northern Italians are mainly descended from Longobards and Ostrogoths.

You go from one insane remark to another because all your "evidence" has been shown to be ludicrous.

You cannot even distinguish between phrenology and craniology while your linguistic, historical and genetic viewpoints on the Lombards are the biggest pile of nonsense I have ever seen on the web.

Stick to American history if you know so little about European history.

I have a copy of Paul Deacon's "History of the Lombards" and you seem to know nothing about that period at all. Paul was a great stylist and storyteller but not a reliable historian for the origins of the Lombards or the invasion of Italy period.

So there is no reliable historical proof that any part of Northern Italy was so empty that the Longobards/Lombards or Germanic groups generally were a majority and no recent genetic study suggests such nonsense.
 
Plus the fact that I suspect Corinth has never visited Northern Italy and never seen how Southern European (confirmed by all recent genetic studies) most of the population is.

Maybe he believes they got their usually dark hair and medium to dark complexions from the followers of Alboin and his Lombard hordes filling up empty land.

Ludicrous, shameful and trollish.
 
Thus, unless they eventually moved back to become voluntary agricultural slaves, this U-152 majority population cant be Ligurian or ancient Italo-Celtic based, because the Lombards remark on the depopulation of the lands that they simply walk in and take, with the exception of a few fortified cities..

Why are you trying to find unbelivebal stories about U152 in Northern Italy originating with the Lombards while the U152 highest variance is just on the other side of the Alpes in South East France.
I'd like to have your explanation for R1b U152 frequency in Corsica. Is it Lombardic really?
 
Why are you trying to find unbelivebal stories about U152 in Northern Italy originating with the Lombards while the U152 highest variance is just on the other side of theh Alpes in South East France.
I'd like to have your explanation for R1b U152 frequency in Corsica. Is it Lombardic really?


I'm with you.

Apparently Corinth thinks this way.

I suspect he is of North Italian extraction. Many such posters have an unfortunate fixation with Nordic/Germanic ancestry which simply DOES NOT CORRESPOND with the truth either in phenotype or in genotype.

(Apologies to any North Italians who are not so inclined)
 
You have your answer below, I cant believe I forgot to respond to such a incredibly ridiculous and - I will have to say- SHAMEFUL post.
Citing phrenology as a valid population genetics factor in 2012 basically is beyond shocking in its utter preposterousness. I shall not bother to respond to you in the future after such a outrageous reliance on a hungarian phrenologist cracking open ancient grave sites and contaminating them for this totally wasted purpose.

You are not paying attention where I cited Lombard sources saying that these elements came for booty, not to settle a homeland in most cases.. A lot of alien populations invade a locality for gain/slaves/loot in this era, and few actually move their families and civilian populations there to live permanently.

[citation please]

what is your twisted agenda in manically replying to me?
If I am fully wrong and you are completely right, why bother to constantly respond to me on a issue that you are merely a dispassionate observer? Why is it so compelling to you to need to countermand my opinion to the degree you cite wackjob phrenologists with skull measurements that would get laughed out of any genetics conference?

what agenda do you have?

I wanted to comment on this monstrosity above, and forgot to earlier.

I honestly do not know which is more horrifying.. in 2012..

1)CITING a phrenologist as a scientific source who cracked open and contaminated with modern DNA irreplaceable ancient burials so that he could 'play' at handling/measuring the skulls.. a practice in place dating back well into the middle ages at least, completely VALUELESS in any way, shape or form (EVEN THEN) and now utterly meaningless in a time of modern y-dna and mtdna population results..

2)or the fact that so-called "authorities" in Hungary gave this absolute idiot the permission to crack open and contaminate rare ancient burials for his nonsensical skull-measuring (phrenology) that is absolutely and completely valueless, even if it were not made obsolete by modern DNA science..

IMHO, what Kiszely was actually looking for was evidence to eliminate asiatic/mongol ancestry in precursor "Hungarian" populations.. for specific Hungarian national reasons, and to do so he forever contaminated and desecrated rare burials to serve totally unrelated ethnic/racial purposes of the time.. and sadly the Hungarian govt went along and sanctioned this.

To cite this monstrosity with any sort of seriousness or reverence, instead of with disgust and shame, on a DNA-based board is truly beyond any sort of explanation. What Kiszely did is not only of no value to any population genetics or science, it actually was a totally necessary and deliberate act of contamination against ancient DNA that boggles the mind.

I have never read a more deluded and incompetent series of posts as yours but then you are a pathetic Nordicist if you believe modern Northern Italians are mainly descended from Longobards and Ostrogoths.

You go from one insane remark to another because all your "evidence" has been shown to be ludicrous.

You cannot even distinguish between phrenology and craniology while your linguistic, historical and genetic viewpoints on the Lombards are the biggest pile of nonsense I have ever seen on the web.

Stick to American history if you know so little about European history.

I have a copy of Paul Deacon's "History of the Lombards" and you seem to know nothing about that period at all. Paul was a great stylist and storyteller but not a reliable historian for the origins of the Lombards or the invasion of Italy period.

So there is no reliable historical proof that any part of Northern Italy was so empty that the Longobards/Lombards or Germanic groups generally were a majority and no recent genetic study suggests such nonsense.

Gentlemen, please, mind your language. That rudeness of yours was totally uncalled for.
 
I wanted to comment on this monstrosity above, and forgot to earlier. I honestly do not know which is more horrifying.. in 2012.. 1)CITING a phrenologist as a scientific source who cracked open and contaminated with modern DNA irreplaceable ancient burials so that he could 'play' at handling/measuring the skulls.. a practice in place dating back well into the middle ages at least, completely VALUELESS in any way, shape or form (EVEN THEN) and now utterly meaningless in a time of modern y-dna and mtdna population results.. 2)or the fact that so-called "authorities" in Hungary gave this absolute idiot the permission to crack open and contaminate rare ancient burials for his nonsensical skull-measuring (phrenology) that is absolutely and completely valueless, even if it were not made obsolete by modern DNA science.. IMHO, what Kiszely was actually looking for was evidence to eliminate asiatic/mongol ancestry in precursor "Hungarian" populations.. for specific Hungarian national reasons, and to do so he forever contaminated and desecrated rare burials to serve totally unrelated ethnic/racial purposes of the time.. and sadly the Hungarian govt went along and sanctioned this. To cite this monstrosity with any sort of seriousness or reverence, instead of with disgust and shame, on a DNA-based board is truly beyond any sort of explanation. What Kiszely did is not only of no value to any population genetics or science, it actually was a totally necessary and deliberate act of contamination against ancient DNA that boggles the mind.
BEFORE ANWER YOU ON A POINT A CONFESS AN HUGE ERROR: when I spoke about my huge surprise concerning North Bashkirs (Myre's surveys): NO R-U106? North baskirland: Nb 70 / R81b: 53: 1 before M269, total M269: 52 2 L23 and 50 U152 it seams a "foreign import" among this only Baskir group - for CORINTH: what is naive is deny any kind of worth to metrics (and other phenotypical means) studies: they have to be done very carefully and to be put in relation with chronology, climate and nurture : way of life - but they can bring some interesting facts about populations and can be linked closer to autosomal DNA than can do the only Y & mt DNA ligneages - in history-anthropology EVERY WAY OF APPROACH ARE VALUABLE - what they need is to be run one together - and don't forget that DNA is changing with time, slightly or abruptly according to the concerned genes and their roles - and a gene don't speak to explain where it is coming from, so phenotypes (caused in a big part by genes) tell us something about history of Man in a fork of 5000-10000 years - its repartition changes by itself but not as quickly as some autosomal genes and it escapes partially a male elite selection better than does Y-DNA $- my belief: the bulk of these Lombards was of a North European "facture" but they surely brought with them some other types found in other populations - in PRESENT DAY North Italy (not the suburbs of big towns) the impact of different northern types are stronger than in central & South Italy "genuine" populations - but THEY ARE NOT STRONGER THERE than in more Eastern North Italy (but there too some of germanic origin people (BUT not Lombardic, seamingly) were send after during more recent historic times: Bavarians according to someones) - AS A WHOLE these types are an important but not dominant part in the present Lombardia and not all of them came there with germanic diverse people - a few ones could have come there with Celts (among whom these phenotypes were present but in a very lighter proportion than among Germanics, and maybe with other Y-DNA repartitions) - I prefer link the most of this phenotypes to bearers of Y-R-U106 and Y-I1 (plus some Y-R1a different from the ones of South Italy (
 
Why are you trying to find unbelivebal stories about U152 in Northern Italy originating with the Lombards while the U152 highest variance is just on the other side of the Alpes in South East France.
I'd like to have your explanation for R1b U152 frequency in Corsica. Is it Lombardic really?

Yes.


The island became disputed between the Ostrogoths, Roman foederati who were settled in the lands along the Riviera, and the Vandals.
Saracen raiders began to prey on Corsica, leadingLiutprand the Lombard to invade circa 725 CE to preempt Saracen designs.[3]
Corsica remained with the Lombard kingdom even AFTER the Frankish conquest, by which time Lombard landholders and churches had established a significant presence on the island.

Do you contest this, or was this a rhetorical question?
 
Yes.




Do you contest this, or was this a rhetorical question?

Many of us contest this.

The Lombards were a tiny elite in Corsica and a small minority all over Italy.

That is why Corsicans and North Italians are usually dark-haired and owe little to the Longobards either in genotype or phenotype.
 
BEFORE ANWER YOU ON A POINT A CONFESS AN HUGE ERROR: when I spoke about my huge surprise concerning North Bashkirs (Myre's surveys): NO R-U106? North baskirland: Nb 70 / R81b: 53: 1 before M269, total M269: 52 2 L23 and 50 U152 it seams a "foreign import" among this only Baskir group -

There is no way to tell, honestly, if the eastern U-152 is-

1)a remnant Scythian/Getae native europid presence who are in traditional lands that are in fact within historical Scythian/Getic lands-

2)a relocated foreign import europid population(if so it seems to predate the rise of Islam and would likely denote western europeans captured and relocated by Hunnic or Mongol captors)

While one cannot discount the known fact that a lot of enslaved europeans were moved east by Hunnic captors, its just as possible and fits within my theory concerning the Getic/Getae/Scythian populations that this is a remnant population that managed to hang-on after asiatic conquest, probably because they were not any longer Europid in appearance due to maternal asiatic/hunnic ancestry,
and thus did not stand out until modern Y-dna testing from any other local Hunnic-turkic genetics populations.

While either above scenario could be the case, its likely that some small, localized (racially-maternally intermixed) reservoir population of europid Y-line natives would still exist even if the majority of the host population were destroyed or migrated west, and this Bashkortostan population would be that concealed remnant.

for CORINTH: what is naive is deny any kind of worth to metrics (and other phenotypical means) studies: they have to be done very carefully and to be put in relation with chronology, climate and nurture : way of life - but they can bring some interesting facts about populations and can be linked closer to autosomal DNA than can do the only Y & mt DNA ligneages - in history-anthropology EVERY WAY OF APPROACH ARE VALUABLE -

Trying to resurrect Phrenology or give it credit as a valid (beyond racial conclusions = mongoloid, europid, negroid) pursuit that is remotely worthy of desecrating and polluting rare ancient burials so that a clown can take measurements of the skulls, NO it is not in remote way a positive, valuable or rational usage or exploitation of these ancient artifacts or remains.

It is a schlock-quackery that is rooted (and should be left to) in the 19th century, and is fully nonsensical. Any phenotype promoter, or person asserting that they can divine anything beyond the assignment to the three basic racial groups or some bone-related diseases (leprosy ) from examining skulls is a complete and total fraud, who is perpetuating something akin to palm-reading or fortune-telling.

There are many black americans for instance (33%) who are in a non-african paternal Hg.. Almost all of these persons have a negroid phenotype, and appear from and Phrenology to be Negroid.
There are many of these black americans in Hg I1 and Hg R1b in particular, which did not come from a african male ancestor, even though the phenotype of the person possessing the Hg is black-skinned and of a Negroid bone/facial/skull structure. This is because- over hundreds of years of slavery, the african females were giving birth to children often fathered by the white slave owner, who was R1b or I1 paternal Hg.

To look at this candidate the way that some in this thread irrationally do, we would need to assert that the I1 in these black americans most likely comes from a negroid male paternal ancestor who brought the Hg with him from a African population, since the primary phenotype in these persons is Negroid.
The reality is, the Hg will remain perpetually, while a fair complexion or other recessive traits will be lost after only one generation of intermixture..

For the reason, judging a population simply and primarily by its phenotype and asserting the prevailing phenotype is indicative of the paternal ancestry does not work- especially for Europids with recessive traits.

AS A WHOLE these types are an important but not dominant part in the present Lombardia and not all of them came there with germanic diverse people - a few ones could have come there with Celts (among whom these phenotypes were present but in a very lighter proportion than among Germanics, and maybe with other Y-DNA repartitions) - I prefer link the most of this phenotypes to bearers of Y-R-U106 and Y-I1 (plus some Y-R1a different from the ones of South Italy (

One would expect to see significant U-152 in Romanian populations if it were a founding element in Italic populations. In fact, Romanians do not possess more than 1% of U-152, which is a immigrant-intermixure degree of introgression.
We have historical documentation of the Lombards taking possession of a region that was depleted in population by the Gothic wars, which consumed all the food resources and led to starvation in the area along with the war dead,

it was then hit with at least two severe plagues that were concentrated within Italy and do not cross into the German lands,

most of the (surviving) population fled their homes as the Lombards approached and ran to the byzantine south, or to ravenna.

This was a good call on their part, because most of the catholic church leadership and many civilians were mass-murdered by the arian-christian Lombardic host.

Next, the Lombards are able over hundreds of years to repell repeated attempts by the Byzantines to sack and defeat them, which was assisted by local Italic populations.. this means the breeding population of 'Lombards' was great enough to meet the superpower of its time and completely defeat them on multiple occasions.

Lombard males would be continually introgressing into the Italic gene pool as they have free access to Italic females, and would over hundreds of years be producing offspring either intentionally or unintentionally with them, while Italic males are restricted by law from marrying or consorting with 'Lombardic' females-
This is a 'prerfect storm' for the Y-line genetics of the Lombardic population to come to a majority of the resident population, while the Italic Y-line genetics are deliberately suppressed.
 
Lombards brought R1b-U106 not U-152 to northern Italy.

U-152 developed in and around the French and Swiss Alps and dates from pre-Roman times.

We have no RELIABLE written evidence that northern Italy was depopulated and certainly Paul the Deacon's charming History of the Lombards was unreliable about the origins and early history of his tribe and much else.

Most ancient writers relied on rhetorical effects (exaggeration usually) and their chronicles have no scientific value outsde the sphere of war and politics. Most lived in a closeted world well away from the poor peasant or artisan.

I repeat cranial anthropology is not phrenology!

Do not misrepresent the scholars of earlier generations who devoted their life to anthropology.

Even the latest genome-wide studies refute the fact that Northern Italy has a large Germanic element.
 
There is no way to tell, honestly, if the eastern U-152 is-

1)a remnant Scythian/Getae native europid presence who are in traditional lands that are in fact within historical Scythian/Getic lands-
2)a relocated foreign import europid population(if so it seems to predate the rise of Islam and would likely denote western europeans captured and relocated by Hunnic or Mongol captors)

There's no need to make up so complicated theories to explain presence of U152 in some very small group of Perm Bashkirs(only 20k men). Those people were resettled by Ivan Terrible from Kazan in 16th century. Kazan was a trade-hub on the Volga trade route from North Europe to West Asia so no wonder that some trader from Europe with R1B-U152 settled in this city. By the way Kazan is the only place in Russia where a guy with Scandinavian R1a-Z284 was found.

If you really want to know the truth about gene pool of Italians in relation to other European nations I recommend you to read the paper discussing genetic and geography of European people.

I can't post links so run in google "Genes mirror geography within Europe".
 
There's no need to make up so complicated theories to explain presence of U152 in some very small group of Perm Bashkirs(only 20k men). Those people were resettled by Ivan Terrible from Kazan in 16th century. Kazan was a trade-hub on the Volga trade route from North Europe to West Asia so no wonder that some trader from Europe with R1B-U152 settled in this city. By the way Kazan is the only place in Russia where a guy with Scandinavian R1a-Z284 was found.

When posting a theory,.. do the decency of what I did.. concede it is merely your theory.

My theory of a remnant of the once intact europid known historic populations that inhabited that area before its mongolization, turkiczation, and then slavization is "complicated",
and you imagined western euro captives who prospered after being dropped to subsist within a Islamic tribal state by Ivan, the Terrible makes sense?

If these are settlers gently relocated from the fall of Kazan, then there should be plentiful U-152 SNP R1b in modern Tatarstan.. right?

Oh, thats right, there isnt any R1b- U-152 SNP or otherwise- there .. Was a nice theory for the three seconds it lasted.

If you really want to know the truth about gene pool of Italians in relation to other European nations I recommend you to read the paper discussing genetic and geography of European people.

I can't post links so run in google "Genes mirror geography within Europe".

As I said before, we have a Roman-ized male Y-line source population for comparative purposes.. Its called the Romanians. NO U-152 to speak of, and only 16% of the Y-lines are in R1b of any sort.

While the Romanians clearly encorporate Ilyrian (I2) male ancestry, and Slavic introgression (R1a) the proximity to Italy and the known settlement of entire legions within Romania is pretty clear indication that-
with 1% U-152 in Romanians,
Ancient Italics/Romans do not show any evidence of carrying this as any significant or inherent part of their Y-line gene pool, as they were unable to pass it on to a neighbor state that they are known to have intensely colonized.
We find U-152 at elevated levels in places that Lombardic power held sway for many hundreds of years- we do not find it in Italic stand-in populations like Romanians at any meaningful pct, indicating a arrival from a non-italic source.
 
Your history is very poor.

When the Goths invaded Roman Dacia in the 3rd century, most of the Romanised population fled south of the Danube to safety.

Most "Roman" settlers in Dacia came from all over the Roman Empire and few were from Italy itself. Even surviving Dacians were absorbed so your Italy-Romania link is invalid.
 
When posting a theory,.. do the decency of what I did.. concede it is merely your theory.

My theory of a remnant of the once intact europid known historic populations that inhabited that area before its mongolization, turkiczation, and then slavization is "complicated",
and you imagined western euro captives who prospered after being dropped to subsist within a Islamic tribal state by Ivan, the Terrible makes sense?

If these are settlers gently relocated from the fall of Kazan, then there should be plentiful U-152 SNP R1b in modern Tatarstan.. right?

Oh, thats right, there isnt any R1b- U-152 SNP or otherwise- there .. Was a nice theory for the three seconds it lasted.



As I said before, we have a Roman-ized male Y-line source population for comparative purposes.. Its called the Romanians. NO U-152 to speak of, and only 16% of the Y-lines are in R1b of any sort.

While the Romanians clearly encorporate Ilyrian (I2) male ancestry, and Slavic introgression (R1a) the proximity to Italy and the known settlement of entire legions within Romania is pretty clear indication that-
with 1% U-152 in Romanians,
Ancient Italics/Romans do not show any evidence of carrying this as any significant or inherent part of their Y-line gene pool, as they were unable to pass it on to a neighbor state that they are known to have intensely colonized.
We find U-152 at elevated levels in places that Lombardic power held sway for many hundreds of years- we do not find it in Italic stand-in populations like Romanians at any meaningful pct, indicating a arrival from a non-italic source.

i know where you got your theory on this lombardic issues, from Wiki as well as cavalli book, but as stated other germanic people entered norhern italy after the goths and lombards, like the swabians, ottonians etc etc, but the lombardic was too few to tilt the dna, .....besides they had bavarians to condend with in the alps

[h=1]The history and geography of human genes[/h] By Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi, Alberto Piazza
 
While the Romanians clearly encorporate Ilyrian (I2) male ancestry, and Slavic introgression (R1a) the proximity to Italy and the known settlement of entire legions within Romania is pretty clear indication that-
with 1% U-152 in Romanians,
Ancient Italics/Romans do not show any evidence of carrying this as any significant or inherent part of their Y-line gene pool, as they were unable to pass it on to a neighbor state that they are known to have intensely colonized.
We find U-152 at elevated levels in places that Lombardic power held sway for many hundreds of years- we do not find it in Italic stand-in populations like Romanians at any meaningful pct, indicating a arrival from a non-italic source.

firstly, romanians are not illyrian, being a romanian who is romaniazed means knowing latin and roman customs, you do not get DNA by learning latin. romanians are ancient dacians.

if the goths and lombardic brought u-152, then why is there little u-152 in dlamatia as the goths stayed there a long time?

history of lombardy is roughly this
late bronze age it was ligurian
around 800BC it became etruscan
around 550BC celts of the boii tribe took it
later romans owned it
then barbarian invaders ( goths, vandals etc )
then Lombards
then swabians and ottonians ( actually ottonians where mainly NE italy)
bavarians and some franks
 

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