Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 11 of 27 FirstFirst ... 91011121321 ... LastLast
Results 251 to 275 of 662

Thread: Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

  1. #251
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Bodin's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-08-11
    Location
    Praia , Cape Verde
    Posts
    504
    Points
    4,934
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,934, Level: 20
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-Din
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2

    Ethnic group
    Srbin
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Cobol19 View Post
    If you're trying to sell me the "Haplogroup I comes from Medes", you fail, it's a gene wave from the Balkans, whether it's 16% or 3%, it does not change where it came from, if you had told me lineages like R1a1a, J2a, R2a, or L3, I would say you have a point, but I2 is super rare in South Central Asia, that's where the Medes AND the Persians come from, and that's also the place where most Iranian people originated (Scythians included according to Herodotus).
    Scythians and Persians were R1a . Like I said there is no way I2a1b is from Balkans . PROVE it is from Balkans if you claim so . Are you Turkic ? You just criticize every evidence and no providing any of your on

  2. #252
    Regular Member Achievements:
    500 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    11-09-11
    Posts
    165


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Map is beter prove than no prove - and that is what is you ofering , give any REASON why should it be I2c or I2b when they both are extremly rare .No it couldnt be on Balkans since LGM because it is to young - it is estimated as 2.500 years old and thats to young . If she would be on Balkans before VI century , than old Balkan population would be 90% of today Balkan population , which is inplausible . Prove I2a1b-Din is from Balkan.
    The map is not a proof when it has no proper sources to back it up, I can make up my own man right now, does that make it evidence too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Scythians and Persians were R1a . Like I said there is no way I2a1b is from Balkans . PROVE it is from Balkans if you claim so . Are you Turkic ? You just criticize every evidence and no providing any of your on
    I provide no evidence? How fitting lol, here you go:

    http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf

    The current I2a1b is haplogroup I1b-M26, which is the former designation for I2a2, it peaks in frequency and diversity in Southeast Europe.

  3. #253
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Bodin's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-08-11
    Location
    Praia , Cape Verde
    Posts
    504
    Points
    4,934
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,934, Level: 20
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-Din
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2

    Ethnic group
    Srbin
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    1. I have already provided you the link to the Balanovsky's paper where you can find these maps and conclusions made on their analysis. It looks like you are not prone to read papers through. Try again: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05...-caucasus.html

    2. About Russians and I-P37. Not all Russians have considerable amounts of I-P37 but mainly those who live in historical Russian regions (regions of the first migration waves of Slavs in Russia). The closer to Ukrain and Belarus the more amount of I-P37 you can find but if you move further to the North and to the East from the historical Russian regions you can find much more I-253 than I-P37.
    1)No I read it realy god first time , but I believed you will understand you mistake . Well hier is the quote ( just below your maps ) from that tread :"seems that both R1a1a-M198 and I2a-P37 have a major barrier eastward in the Don river. Please note that the former is not strictly a European haplogroup, but it nonetheless experiences a massive drop in frequency, and is negligible everywhere except in Abkhaz-Circassians (NW Caucasus; 10.3-19.7%), with an outlier in Dargins (22%).



    This seems to put a limit on the origin of any hypothetical movements across the Eurasian steppe east of the Don river, as haplogroup I2a-P37 is largely absent in Central Asia, and occurs 3 times in 1,525 individuals in this sample. So, while there have been proposals of a Central European origin of some steppe pastoralist groups, these are hard to reconcile with this picture."
    So what he says hier is that there is I2a2 in Caucasus , but in low frequencies , except in Dargins and Abhkaz were it is realy high . I already provided papers that show high i amongs Ossetians , but only in two aerias Digora and Ardon( up to 30% ) , rest of North Ossetians and all south Ossetians have no I ( because of heavy mixing with Caucasian populations - which is shown by lot of G , actualy South Ossetians could be native population that just accepted Iranic languague ) - and that would produce low I2 in overall Ossetian population - same thing with Tatars from our previous dispute .
    Thank you for evidence there is I2 in Central Asia - 3/ 1525 , but that is aeria where old population was mostly exchanged by incoming Turks and then mongols.
    2)Yes on North there is less I2 but there is also less R1a( 30%) and high N- there is a lot of Russicized Fins , But east was setled by Russians from that aerias that you call " historicaly Russian "

  4. #254
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Bodin's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-08-11
    Location
    Praia , Cape Verde
    Posts
    504
    Points
    4,934
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,934, Level: 20
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-Din
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2

    Ethnic group
    Srbin
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Cobol19 View Post
    Read what I said again, the meaning of it is that you're mixing time-periods, a better example of this is like comparing the modern English speakers to an the Anglo-Saxson speakers from 1000 years ago, while modern English does indeed come from Anglo-Saxon, the two languages are NOT the same, this is what Old English sounded like:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVyXDYp60BE

    Do you understand? No.



    Proto-Indo-Iranian is also a different time-period, the Proto-Indo-Iranian is connected with the Andronovo culture, not Mitanni.



    Sanskrit clearly comes from Indo-Aryan, Mitanni (Based on whatever words were found), also shares this Indo-Aryan connection, which I should add, was mostly just the names of Gods that were worshiped by the Vedic Aryans (Sanskrit speakers), so in reality, there's no strong evidence on whether the Mitanni spoke an Indo-Iranian at all, but if they did, it would have been comparable to the Vedic Aryans that migrated to India, not the language of the Medes/Persians.



    I accept the Kurds as an Iranian West Asian people, meaning the majority of their genes are native to West Asia but they carry some Indo-Iranian genes, if anything, I think the ancient Hurrians and other similar ancient West Asian populations probably played a bigger role in Kurdish DNA than the ancient Iranians, this has been proven by the autosomal DNA which shows mostly West Asian.



    I don't try to link the Kurds with anything, but if you were to ask, the Kurds are closer to some of their non-Indo-European neighboring populations such as Turks, Assyrians, Lebanese etc than they are to actual Indo-Europeans such as the Russians or Ukrainians for example, this goes to show you that just because certain groups speak a certain language, it does not mean much in genetics.
    O, now proto- IndoIranian is linked with Andronovo culture - west Siberia and not to Persian province Aria( where you say Persians and Medes - speackers of that languague coming from ) ? There is some links of Kurds with neighbors but differences are masive - realy different nations and origins. .

  5. #255
    Regular Member Achievements:
    500 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    11-09-11
    Posts
    165


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    O, now proto- IndoIranian is linked with Andronovo culture - west Siberia and not to Persian province Aria( where you say Persians and Medes - speackers of that languague coming from ) ? There is some links of Kurds with neighbors but differences are masive - realy different nations and origins. .
    That's Proto-Indo-Iranian, not Iranian, do you know anything about language families?

    - Proto-Indo-European
    -- Indo-European
    --- Proto-Indo-Iranian
    ---- Indo-Iranian
    ----- Indo-Aryan / Iranian
    ------ Persian/Mede fall under the Iranian branch.

  6. #256
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Bodin's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-08-11
    Location
    Praia , Cape Verde
    Posts
    504
    Points
    4,934
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,934, Level: 20
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-Din
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2

    Ethnic group
    Srbin
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I already explained very well what or who Medes were. I still dont understand how people insist on this Mede I2a Kurdish theory. In fact we cant be sure and it is only a theory. The I2a among Kurds could indeed be a geneflow from Balkan. I dont have to remind you Guys that beside Alan, Scythian, Cimmerian tripes also other existed. Another of them are the Karduchis from Gordyeme, Gordiane,Gorduene, Gordion in Southeast Anatolia which according to Strabo got its name from the Phrygian disgtrict of Gordyaea . And we all know that Phrygians originated from Balkans. This could also be a explain for I* among Kurds. However it is also possible that I* came with Cimmerians or Scythians of Media who settled in Kurdistan. Everything is possible and all of this theories are speculations for now.
    Ofcourse it is theory , we are hier to discus theories. I2a cant be on Balkans such long period - its old only 2.500 years , and wouldnt Phrygians or Cymmerians give it to Turks also ? There is no way I2a2 would live in hart of R1a Urheimat - steppes north of Black sea and not get mixed with it - only 5% of Slavic R1a Serbia .

  7. #257
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Bodin's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-08-11
    Location
    Praia , Cape Verde
    Posts
    504
    Points
    4,934
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,934, Level: 20
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-Din
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2

    Ethnic group
    Srbin
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Cobol19 View Post
    Read what I said again, the meaning of it is that you're mixing time-periods, a better example of this is like comparing the modern English speakers to an the Anglo-Saxson speakers from 1000 years ago, while modern English does indeed come from Anglo-Saxon, the two languages are NOT the same, this is what Old English sounded like:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVyXDYp60BE

    Do you understand? No.



    Proto-Indo-Iranian is also a different time-period, the Proto-Indo-Iranian is connected with the Andronovo culture, not Mitanni.



    Sanskrit clearly comes from Indo-Aryan, Mitanni (Based on whatever words were found), also shares this Indo-Aryan connection, which I should add, was mostly just the names of Gods that were worshiped by the Vedic Aryans (Sanskrit speakers), so in reality, there's no strong evidence on whether the Mitanni spoke an Indo-Iranian at all, but if they did, it would have been comparable to the Vedic Aryans that migrated to India, not the language of the Medes/Persians.



    I accept the Kurds as an Iranian West Asian people, meaning the majority of their genes are native to West Asia but they carry some Indo-Iranian genes, if anything, I think the ancient Hurrians and other similar ancient West Asian populations probably played a bigger role in Kurdish DNA than the ancient Iranians, this has been proven by the autosomal DNA which shows mostly West Asian.



    I don't try to link the Kurds with anything, but if you were to ask, the Kurds are closer to some of their non-Indo-European neighboring populations such as Turks, Assyrians, Lebanese etc than they are to actual Indo-Europeans such as the Russians or Ukrainians for example, this goes to show you that just because certain groups speak a certain language, it does not mean much in genetics.
    So , now proto Indo European is from Andronovo - west Siberia and Medes and Persians are from Persian satrapy Ariana - and again it is realy comon name amongs IE speackers
    Kurds are geneticaly trealy different than they neighbours , why comparing them with Russians , nobody said Kurds are Slavic?

  8. #258
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Bodin's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-08-11
    Location
    Praia , Cape Verde
    Posts
    504
    Points
    4,934
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,934, Level: 20
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-Din
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2

    Ethnic group
    Srbin
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Cobol19 View Post
    The map is not a proof when it has no proper sources to back it up, I can make up my own man right now, does that make it evidence too?



    I provide no evidence? How fitting lol, here you go:

    http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf

    The current I2a1b is haplogroup I1b-M26, which is the former designation for I2a2, it peaks in frequency and diversity in Southeast Europe.

    No I2a1b is I P37 it peaks in southeastern Europe and it former designation is I2a2 Din and before that I1b and I M26 is now known as I2a1a and it peaks in Sardinia and some aerias in Spain . You realy have toubles with designations . I1b(XM26) in this paper means I1b ( Old designation for I2a1) without (X) M26 . This paper prove my point there is high I2a1b Din in SerboCroatian lands and it is lower in neighboring nonSerboCroatian lands - if it is not haplogroup that Serbs and Croats bringed on Balkans it would be very strange . It is also outdated - I2a1b Din cant be on Balkans since Paleolithe since it estimated age is 2.500 years .
    You only argument is density of I2a1b Din on Balkans , but highest density of R1b is in west Europe - which doesnt mean it is there since Paleolithe

  9. #259
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Bodin's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-08-11
    Location
    Praia , Cape Verde
    Posts
    504
    Points
    4,934
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,934, Level: 20
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-Din
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2

    Ethnic group
    Srbin
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Cobol19 View Post
    That's Proto-Indo-Iranian, not Iranian, do you know anything about language families?

    - Proto-Indo-European
    -- Indo-European
    --- Proto-Indo-Iranian
    ---- Indo-Iranian
    ----- Indo-Aryan / Iranian
    ------ Persian/Mede fall under the Iranian branch.
    Do you know anything about genetic , archeology and history ? Scythians spocked Iranian , and they were direct descendants of Andronovo culture peoples , and direct ancestors of Slavs - look for DNA researches of Scythian graves

  10. #260
    Regular Member Achievements:
    500 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    11-09-11
    Posts
    165


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    No I2a1b is I P37 it peaks in southeastern Europe and it former designation is I2a2 Din and before that I1b and I M26 is now known as I2a1a and it peaks in Sardinia and some aerias in Spain . You realy have toubles with designations . I1b(XM26) in this paper means I1b ( Old designation for I2a1) without (X) M26 . This paper prove my point there is high I2a1b Din in SerboCroatian lands and it is lower in neighboring nonSerboCroatian lands - if it is not haplogroup that Serbs and Croats bringed on Balkans it would be very strange . It is also outdated - I2a1b Din cant be on Balkans since Paleolithe since it estimated age is 2.500 years .
    You only argument is density of I2a1b Din on Balkans , but highest density of R1b is in west Europe - which doesnt mean it is there since Paleolithe
    Bodin, I'll make it very simple for you:

    I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b

    Look at the link again:

    http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf

    I1b (Which is I2a2) peaks in countries like Bosnia/Herzegovina, Croatia, Serbia, and Macedonia, the lineage that peaks in Sardinia is I2a1a.

    The I* that exists in West Asia is probably mostly I2c and I2a1b, and it's not strange that it came from Southeast Europe since that's where it peaks.

  11. #261
    Regular Member Achievements:
    500 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    11-09-11
    Posts
    165


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    No I2a1b is I P37 it peaks in southeastern Europe and it former designation is I2a2 Din and before that I1b and I M26 is now known as I2a1a and it peaks in Sardinia and some aerias in Spain . You realy have toubles with designations . I1b(XM26) in this paper means I1b ( Old designation for I2a1) without (X) M26 . This paper prove my point there is high I2a1b Din in SerboCroatian lands and it is lower in neighboring nonSerboCroatian lands - if it is not haplogroup that Serbs and Croats bringed on Balkans it would be very strange . It is also outdated - I2a1b Din cant be on Balkans since Paleolithe since it estimated age is 2.500 years .
    You only argument is density of I2a1b Din on Balkans , but highest density of R1b is in west Europe - which doesnt mean it is there since Paleolithe
    Bodin, I'll make it very simple for you:

    I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b

    Look at the link again:

    http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf

    I1b (Which is I2a2) peaks in countries like Bosnia/Herzegovina, Croatia, Serbia, and Macedonia, the lineage that peaks in Sardinia is I2a1a.

    The I* that exists in West Asia is probably mostly I2c and I2a1b, and it's not strange that it came from Southeast Europe since that's where it peaks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Do you know anything about genetic , archeology and history ? Scythians spocked Iranian , and they were direct descendants of Andronovo culture peoples , and direct ancestors of Slavs - look for DNA researches of Scythian graves
    According to ancient Andronovo and Scythian DNA, I2a1b has nothing to do with them, only R1a1a and haplogroup C* to a smaller extent.

  12. #262
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,270
    Points
    68,877
    Level
    81
    Points: 68,877, Level: 81
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 873
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Cobol19, saying that the frequency of I2a-Din in the Balkans is evidence that it originated there is poor reasoning. The center of diversity of I2a-Din is apparently not in the Balkans, and the clade TMCRA is very young to begin with, indicating that it expanded on the Balkans rapidly and recently (relatively speaking, the Classical and Medieval periods are very much in play). As I've mentioned, Nordtvedt places the center of diversity of I2a-Din north of the Balkans, as diversity of it appears to increase as we go north. However, it's less clear where the center of diversity is on an east/west scale, mainly because we don't have enough data on I2a-Din in the East.

    That isn't to say that I agree with Bodin, especially on his dismissal of the Slavs as being the source of I2a-Din in the Balkans. His main objection to that theory seems to be that the Slavs carried primarily R1a, which is now more rare than I2a-Din in the Balkans. But I think this frequency-based argument runs into similar issues. It's entirely possible that the expanding population had genetic drift toward a minority haplogroup, or that they were such a small segment of the original population that their haplogroup frequencies weren't representative of the whole. Besides, there is significant North Slavic I2a-Din, which we are fairly sure is older than Balkan I2a-Din, so why not assume them as the source, given that our knowledge of Eastern I2a-Din is lacking?

  13. #263
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,073
    Points
    22,792
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,792, Level: 46
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 758
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Cobol19, saying that the frequency of I2a-Din in the Balkans is evidence that it originated there is poor reasoning. The center of diversity of I2a-Din is apparently not in the Balkans, and the clade TMCRA is very young to begin with, indicating that it expanded on the Balkans rapidly and recently (relatively speaking, the Classical and Medieval periods are very much in play). As I've mentioned, Nordtvedt places the center of diversity of I2a-Din north of the Balkans, as diversity of it appears to increase as we go north. However, it's less clear where the center of diversity is on an east/west scale, mainly because we don't have enough data on I2a-Din in the East.

    That isn't to say that I agree with Bodin, especially on his dismissal of the Slavs as being the source of I2a-Din in the Balkans. His main objection to that theory seems to be that the Slavs carried primarily R1a, which is now more rare than I2a-Din in the Balkans. But I think this frequency-based argument runs into similar issues. It's entirely possible that the expanding population had genetic drift toward a minority haplogroup, or that they were such a small segment of the original population that their haplogroup frequencies weren't representative of the whole. Besides, there is significant North Slavic I2a-Din, which we are fairly sure is older than Balkan I2a-Din, so why not assume them as the source, given that our knowledge of Eastern I2a-Din is lacking?
    Bodin, did not say slavs brought I2a-din to the balkans, but he said Sarmatians did, of which Serbians and Croats descented from.
    I agree with Bodin to a point. I agree with you that R1a is not "just" a slavic haplotype, but refers to a slavic-germanic-dacian type along with other haplotypes
    Thats how I understood it
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

  14. #264
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,270
    Points
    68,877
    Level
    81
    Points: 68,877, Level: 81
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 873
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Bodin, did not say slavs brought I2a-din to the balkans, but he said Sarmatians did, of which Serbians and Croats descented from.
    I agree with Bodin to a point. I agree with you that R1a is not "just" a slavic haplotype, but refers to a slavic-germanic-dacian type along with other haplotypes
    Thats how I understood it
    Yeah, I know he thinks the Sarmatians brought it, I was arguing that he shouldn't be dismissing the Slavs as another possibility... in fact, I find the Slavs more likely a possibility unless we get more data on Eastern I2a-Din that indicates otherwise.

  15. #265
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,073
    Points
    22,792
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,792, Level: 46
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 758
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Yeah, I know he thinks the Sarmatians brought it, I was arguing that he shouldn't be dismissing the Slavs as another possibility... in fact, I find the Slavs more likely a possibility unless we get more data on Eastern I2a-Din that indicates otherwise.
    you do realise, that whatever choice we make, it indicates that I2a-din was not present in the western balkans during roman times. With that in mind and following the Uterice culture scholars. It means that the western culture was I1 or whatever was in the bohemian-pannonian areas

  16. #266
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,270
    Points
    68,877
    Level
    81
    Points: 68,877, Level: 81
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 873
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    you do realise, that whatever choice we make, it indicates that I2a-din was not present in the western balkans during roman times. With that in mind and following the Uterice culture scholars. It means that the western culture was I1 or whatever was in the bohemian-pannonian areas
    Yeah, no matter what we do, we end up with the Balkans having a lot of Classical/Medieval input and less Paleolithic/Neolithic/Bronze Age input than we might expect. I suspect that the Y-DNA frequencies across the Balkans were a lot more like what they are in Albania now before this input, that is, less I2 and R1a, and more R1b, J2, J1, and E1b.

    (I1? Not really, I1 is also fairly young and would have been largely confined to a smallish area around Denmark/Germany/Sweden/etc. until the Migration Period).

  17. #267
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    16-09-11
    Posts
    15


    Country: USA - New York



    The fact that E1b1b is as rare in Hercegovina as it is in Austria or other parts of northern Europe. That R1b is largely absent, as is R1a shows that there was very little gene flow from Southern Balkans to Central Balkans and Western Europe to Central Balkans.

    I don't know why we're still discussing the same stupid arguments that have no evidence supporting them.

    1) There is no evidence that I2a2 was brought by Slavs to the Balkans.
    2) Language doesn't prove genetic origin. (Gaelic has lost favor in Ireland and was replaced by English in the last 200 years, it's a dying language).
    3) Basic evolutionary genetics suggest that Hercegovina and Dalmatia were one of the more difficult places to colonize due to geographic isolaton.

    If any of you have taken any evolutionary genetics courses, which seems unlikely, you will know that a major factor that stops gene flow is geographic isolation. This is caused by geographic barriers to gene flow (mountains, oceans, etc). This is pretty simple to understand.

    The region of Croatia with the highest I2a2 is Dalmatia and Hercegovina.

    To the West of this region we have the Adriatic sea.
    To the East of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.
    To the North of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.
    To the South of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.

    In Slavonia, although similar language, and also the genetic isolation of communism we show much higher frequencies of western european admixture. Slavonia lacks geographic isolation.

    In Serbia, which shares the same language, we have higher rates of E1b1b and other non I2a2 haplogroups. Serbia lacks clear geographic boundaries.

    There is no evidence that I2a2 came from Goths or Slavs or any other ancient people that supposedly invaded the Balkans. There's no evidence that this part of the Balkans was ever invaded, apart from Roman conquests, which show no genetic footprints and Turkish conquests, which show very little genetic footprints.

    It's pretty pathetic to attempt to say that while the Romans and Turks showed no genetic footprints, that some fantasy people invaded and footnotes in thousand year old books prove evidence of this invasion. Until someone shows me any evidence for this hypothesis, i can't take it seriously.

  18. #268
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,119
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    The fact that E1b1b is as rare in Hercegovina as it is in Austria or other parts of northern Europe. That R1b is largely absent, as is R1a shows that there was very little gene flow from Southern Balkans to Central Balkans and Western Europe to Central Balkans.

    I don't know why we're still discussing the same stupid arguments that have no evidence supporting them.

    1) There is no evidence that I2a2 was brought by Slavs to the Balkans.
    2) Language doesn't prove genetic origin. (Gaelic has lost favor in Ireland and was replaced by English in the last 200 years, it's a dying language).
    3) Basic evolutionary genetics suggest that Hercegovina and Dalmatia were one of the more difficult places to colonize due to geographic isolaton.

    If any of you have taken any evolutionary genetics courses, which seems unlikely, you will know that a major factor that stops gene flow is geographic isolation. This is caused by geographic barriers to gene flow (mountains, oceans, etc). This is pretty simple to understand.

    The region of Croatia with the highest I2a2 is Dalmatia and Hercegovina.

    To the West of this region we have the Adriatic sea.
    To the East of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.
    To the North of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.
    To the South of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.

    In Slavonia, although similar language, and also the genetic isolation of communism we show much higher frequencies of western european admixture. Slavonia lacks geographic isolation.

    In Serbia, which shares the same language, we have higher rates of E1b1b and other non I2a2 haplogroups. Serbia lacks clear geographic boundaries.

    There is no evidence that I2a2 came from Goths or Slavs or any other ancient people that supposedly invaded the Balkans. There's no evidence that this part of the Balkans was ever invaded, apart from Roman conquests, which show no genetic footprints and Turkish conquests, which show very little genetic footprints.

    It's pretty pathetic to attempt to say that while the Romans and Turks showed no genetic footprints, that some fantasy people invaded and footnotes in thousand year old books prove evidence of this invasion. Until someone shows me any evidence for this hypothesis, i can't take it seriously.
    your point 1 - we can agree with this until further evidence arrives.

    2 - languages exist based on the government in power, if the government shows genocidial tendencies to NOT allow these other languages to be taught in schools, then the language would die. Since most nations practice this form of Genocide on cultures within their nation. what kind of democracy do we have.?
    I am not NOT referring to migrational languages. The only reason that celtic and/or latin did not remain in vogue, was that it was used solely as a commerce language. Slavic was forced by the sword to be used, thats why it dominated .


    3- you are joking? . An area which was infested with Illyrian tribes , which gave the macedonians and Romans much trouble to conquer .

    You do know that between the adriatic sea and the dinaric mountains is only about 50Kms , actually between 1 to 60Kms
    What about the rest of the western balkans?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  19. #269
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Bodin's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-08-11
    Location
    Praia , Cape Verde
    Posts
    504
    Points
    4,934
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,934, Level: 20
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-Din
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2

    Ethnic group
    Srbin
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Cobol19 View Post
    Bodin, I'll make it very simple for you:

    I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b

    Look at the link again:

    http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf

    I1b (Which is I2a2) peaks in countries like Bosnia/Herzegovina, Croatia, Serbia, and Macedonia, the lineage that peaks in Sardinia is I2a1a.

    The I* that exists in West Asia is probably mostly I2c and I2a1b, and it's not strange that it came from Southeast Europe since that's where it peaks.
    yes I know that I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b , it is my haplogroup , what I tried to corect in your previous post is that I2a1b is not I M26 but I P37 .
    So now you acepting possibility that I* in West Asia is I2a1b , why do you argued at all ?
    How did I2a1b get from Balkans to Kurdistan without leaving almoust any traill in Anatolia - do you believe they had aeroplains ?

  20. #270
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Bodin's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-08-11
    Location
    Praia , Cape Verde
    Posts
    504
    Points
    4,934
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,934, Level: 20
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-Din
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2

    Ethnic group
    Srbin
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Cobol19 View Post
    Bodin, I'll make it very simple for you:

    I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b

    Look at the link again:

    http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf

    I1b (Which is I2a2) peaks in countries like Bosnia/Herzegovina, Croatia, Serbia, and Macedonia, the lineage that peaks in Sardinia is I2a1a.

    The I* that exists in West Asia is probably mostly I2c and I2a1b, and it's not strange that it came from Southeast Europe since that's where it peaks.



    According to ancient Andronovo and Scythian DNA, I2a1b has nothing to do with them, only R1a1a and haplogroup C* to a smaller extent.
    I was allways saying to you that Scythian ( and Slavic)DNA is R1a1 ( and probably some N and Q ) , I never said that I2a1b is Scythain or Slavic , I said it is SARMATHIAN . Do you read my treads at all ? Or you just love to argue ?

  21. #271
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Bodin's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-08-11
    Location
    Praia , Cape Verde
    Posts
    504
    Points
    4,934
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,934, Level: 20
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-Din
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2

    Ethnic group
    Srbin
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Cobol19, saying that the frequency of I2a-Din in the Balkans is evidence that it originated there is poor reasoning. The center of diversity of I2a-Din is apparently not in the Balkans, and the clade TMCRA is very young to begin with, indicating that it expanded on the Balkans rapidly and recently (relatively speaking, the Classical and Medieval periods are very much in play). As I've mentioned, Nordtvedt places the center of diversity of I2a-Din north of the Balkans, as diversity of it appears to increase as we go north. However, it's less clear where the center of diversity is on an east/west scale, mainly because we don't have enough data on I2a-Din in the East.

    That isn't to say that I agree with Bodin, especially on his dismissal of the Slavs as being the source of I2a-Din in the Balkans. His main objection to that theory seems to be that the Slavs carried primarily R1a, which is now more rare than I2a-Din in the Balkans. But I think this frequency-based argument runs into similar issues. It's entirely possible that the expanding population had genetic drift toward a minority haplogroup, or that they were such a small segment of the original population that their haplogroup frequencies weren't representative of the whole. Besides, there is significant North Slavic I2a-Din, which we are fairly sure is older than Balkan I2a-Din, so why not assume them as the source, given that our knowledge of Eastern I2a-Din is lacking?
    Well I wouldnt call it Northern Slavic DNA - highets frequency of I2a1b is in Ukraine and Moldova - Sarmathian habitat , while it is much decreased in North Russia - actualy there is much stronger Germanic and Finnic DNA .

  22. #272
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Bodin's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-08-11
    Location
    Praia , Cape Verde
    Posts
    504
    Points
    4,934
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,934, Level: 20
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-Din
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2

    Ethnic group
    Srbin
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Cobol19, saying that the frequency of I2a-Din in the Balkans is evidence that it originated there is poor reasoning. The center of diversity of I2a-Din is apparently not in the Balkans, and the clade TMCRA is very young to begin with, indicating that it expanded on the Balkans rapidly and recently (relatively speaking, the Classical and Medieval periods are very much in play). As I've mentioned, Nordtvedt places the center of diversity of I2a-Din north of the Balkans, as diversity of it appears to increase as we go north. However, it's less clear where the center of diversity is on an east/west scale, mainly because we don't have enough data on I2a-Din in the East.

    That isn't to say that I agree with Bodin, especially on his dismissal of the Slavs as being the source of I2a-Din in the Balkans. His main objection to that theory seems to be that the Slavs carried primarily R1a, which is now more rare than I2a-Din in the Balkans. But I think this frequency-based argument runs into similar issues. It's entirely possible that the expanding population had genetic drift toward a minority haplogroup, or that they were such a small segment of the original population that their haplogroup frequencies weren't representative of the whole. Besides, there is significant North Slavic I2a-Din, which we are fairly sure is older than Balkan I2a-Din, so why not assume them as the source, given that our knowledge of Eastern I2a-Din is lacking?
    Well hier is reason why I dismis Slavs as carriers of I2a1b -1) there is no archeological evidence of any numerous Slavic settling on Balkans 2) Serbs and Croats are mentioned by Pliny like Sorabi and Heruatas - Sarmathian tribes and 3) and most important - Slavic DNA in Serbia , Bosnia ,and all over Balkans is not more than 5% of total population ( except Croatia and Slovenia - but Croatia incorporated Slavonia - part of Slavic Balaton duchy , and Avars settled Slovenia with Slavs - like the name of both Slavonia and Slovenia says), while in Serbia , Croatia and Bosnia , there is over 40% of I2a1b ( if that would be whole incoming population there would be 89% of I2a1b and 11% of Slavic R1a- ofcourse R1a had comed in other Slavic tribes to like Moravci and Timochani that comed before Serbs ) , and in Slavic populations there is no more than 16% of I2a1b and over 50% of R1a ( if that would be total Slavic population ratio would be 25% I2a1b to 75%R1a ) - only explanation is mixing of diferent populations not same population
    4)If I2a1b was in Ukraine since LGM it would have to be lot more mixed with R1a ( Yamna culture is proto IE - R1a carriers ) - so there is no way Serbs would have only 5% of slavic R1a
    Thats my main reasons I dont believe I2a1b is Slavic , but reminescence of Sarmathians that lived on North coast of Black sea before Slavs - either tru mixing of Sarmathians whit Slavs during they rule over them , either tru Russian conqueste of population North of Black sea and slavization

  23. #273
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Bodin's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-08-11
    Location
    Praia , Cape Verde
    Posts
    504
    Points
    4,934
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,934, Level: 20
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-Din
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2

    Ethnic group
    Srbin
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    The fact that E1b1b is as rare in Hercegovina as it is in Austria or other parts of northern Europe. That R1b is largely absent, as is R1a shows that there was very little gene flow from Southern Balkans to Central Balkans and Western Europe to Central Balkans.

    I don't know why we're still discussing the same stupid arguments that have no evidence supporting them.

    1) There is no evidence that I2a2 was brought by Slavs to the Balkans.
    2) Language doesn't prove genetic origin. (Gaelic has lost favor in Ireland and was replaced by English in the last 200 years, it's a dying language).
    3) Basic evolutionary genetics suggest that Hercegovina and Dalmatia were one of the more difficult places to colonize due to geographic isolaton.

    If any of you have taken any evolutionary genetics courses, which seems unlikely, you will know that a major factor that stops gene flow is geographic isolation. This is caused by geographic barriers to gene flow (mountains, oceans, etc). This is pretty simple to understand.

    The region of Croatia with the highest I2a2 is Dalmatia and Hercegovina.

    To the West of this region we have the Adriatic sea.
    To the East of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.
    To the North of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.
    To the South of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.

    In Slavonia, although similar language, and also the genetic isolation of communism we show much higher frequencies of western european admixture. Slavonia lacks geographic isolation.

    In Serbia, which shares the same language, we have higher rates of E1b1b and other non I2a2 haplogroups. Serbia lacks clear geographic boundaries.

    There is no evidence that I2a2 came from Goths or Slavs or any other ancient people that supposedly invaded the Balkans. There's no evidence that this part of the Balkans was ever invaded, apart from Roman conquests, which show no genetic footprints and Turkish conquests, which show very little genetic footprints.

    It's pretty pathetic to attempt to say that while the Romans and Turks showed no genetic footprints, that some fantasy people invaded and footnotes in thousand year old books prove evidence of this invasion. Until someone shows me any evidence for this hypothesis, i can't take it seriously.
    Well Herzegovina and Dalmatia were not realy isolated - the richest cityes were on Dalmathian coast - lots of Roman emperors were from Dalmatia and Balkans , Dalmathia was center of ostrogothic conquest , Dalmatia sufer most of Avar atacks( Avar took Dalmatian prisoners in Panonia give them freedom and make a whole new tribe out of them ), than comed Croatians and after them Serbs . You forgot to mention Albania that is realy isolated and had highest E1b1b in Balkans , and they are also Illyrian . Sarmathians is not imaginary nation , it is nation that use to hold whole European Russia and Poland from Caucasus to Baltic sea ( Oceanus Saramathicus in ancient sources ) . Sources write about 500.000 of archers just in Alan army. Do you believe that great number of peoples just disapeared? And again Pliny write about Sorabi and Harauati , Sarmathian tribes
    Also Mesapi in South Italy are Illyrian tribe that crossed Adriatic sea , and they dont have I2a1b . Romans use to use Balkanic populations like soldiers in West Europe - and there is no noticable I2a1b , which would be if it is Illyrian . Wales shows high E1b1b , which is explained by Mesian soldiers , and Messi were part Illyrians part Tracians , and there is still no I2a1b in Wales.

  24. #274
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    16-09-11
    Posts
    15


    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Well Herzegovina and Dalmatia were not realy isolated - the richest cityes were on Dalmathian coast - lots of Roman emperors were from Dalmatia and Balkans , Dalmathia was center of ostrogothic conquest , Dalmatia sufer most of Avar atacks( Avar took Dalmatian prisoners in Panonia give them freedom and make a whole new tribe out of them ), than comed Croatians and after them Serbs . You forgot to mention Albania that is realy isolated and had highest E1b1b in Balkans , and they are also Illyrian . Sarmathians is not imaginary nation , it is nation that use to hold whole European Russia and Poland from Caucasus to Baltic sea ( Oceanus Saramathicus in ancient sources ) . Sources write about 500.000 of archers just in Alan army. Do you believe that great number of peoples just disapeared? And again Pliny write about Sorabi and Harauati , Sarmathian tribes
    Also Mesapi in South Italy are Illyrian tribe that crossed Adriatic sea , and they dont have I2a1b . Romans use to use Balkanic populations like soldiers in West Europe - and there is no noticable I2a1b , which would be if it is Illyrian . Wales shows high E1b1b , which is explained by Mesian soldiers , and Messi were part Illyrians part Tracians , and there is still no I2a1b in Wales.
    Listen my Srb friend.

    Go look at any map and tell me that Dalmatia and Hercegovina are not geographically isolated. This is pure nonsense. A country that isn't geographically isolate is Serbia. I'm really not sure whether or not to take that statement seriously. Do you know what geographic isolation is?

    What it isn't is flat land. Which is most of Serbia. Kosovo seems like recent e1b1b arrival and if you think those dirty animals are Illyrian you're more brainwashed than anything. Look up where the capital of Illyria was. I don't care about Illyria but the absurdity of the argument that some people in Kosovo are Illyrian is laughable. Sources seem to point to Stolac, Hercegovina as the capital of Illyria. Which is off of the Neretva and easy access to the sea.

    I have a theory that haplogroup I2 people are sea people. The haplogroup distribution seems to indicate that we are sea people. We were sea people in the days of the Roman empire and beyond. The coastal regions of Ukraine, Moldova are all sea areas. The Sardinian population could only be explained by haplogroup I2 being sea people. There must have been an i2 tribe that forked and voyaged to sardina and started a foundry effect population.

    If you think 500,000 archers crossed the dinaric alps and conquered all of Bosna and coastal Croatia I think your imagination is very vivid. Archers are hardly effective in mountains and prone to attacks. It sounds and smells like a lie. The Turkish and roman footprints are almost none in the Balkans aside from Muslim bosnians. And that was hundreds of years of control.

  25. #275
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Bodin's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-08-11
    Location
    Praia , Cape Verde
    Posts
    504
    Points
    4,934
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,934, Level: 20
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-Din
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2

    Ethnic group
    Srbin
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    Listen my Srb friend.

    Go look at any map and tell me that Dalmatia and Hercegovina are not geographically isolated. This is pure nonsense. A country that isn't geographically isolate is Serbia. I'm really not sure whether or not to take that statement seriously. Do you know what geographic isolation is?

    What it isn't is flat land. Which is most of Serbia. Kosovo seems like recent e1b1b arrival and if you think those dirty animals are Illyrian you're more brainwashed than anything. Look up where the capital of Illyria was. I don't care about Illyria but the absurdity of the argument that some people in Kosovo are Illyrian is laughable. Sources seem to point to Stolac, Hercegovina as the capital of Illyria. Which is off of the Neretva and easy access to the sea.

    I have a theory that haplogroup I2 people are sea people. The haplogroup distribution seems to indicate that we are sea people. We were sea people in the days of the Roman empire and beyond. The coastal regions of Ukraine, Moldova are all sea areas. The Sardinian population could only be explained by haplogroup I2 being sea people. There must have been an i2 tribe that forked and voyaged to sardina and started a foundry effect population.

    If you think 500,000 archers crossed the dinaric alps and conquered all of Bosna and coastal Croatia I think your imagination is very vivid. Archers are hardly effective in mountains and prone to attacks. It sounds and smells like a lie. The Turkish and roman footprints are almost none in the Balkans aside from Muslim bosnians. And that was hundreds of years of control.
    Yes friend they are isolated but less than Albania , or you do not agreed with that , Albania is isolated even todayand it had lot of E1b - most in Europe . What I tried to say is that they were realy rich provinces and they were main target for Avar attacks . Avar killed lot of Dalmatian population and then Croats and Serbs killed Avars and more old population.
    Illyrians lived from Dalmatia to Albania , Dardani nation that lived on Kosovo and North Macedonia were Illyro- Thracians . Albanians speack branch of IE languague similar to no other - so it is most probably realy long on Balkans , they languague even shows similarities with Pelazg languague . Where did you think Albanians come from( you said they not Illyrians , so they had to come from somewhere ) - remember it had to be aeria with realy high E1b and IE languague similar to Albanian .
    Albanian suits are realy similar to Illyrian and customs like tatooing .Albanians get they name by Albanoi - Illyrian tribe in south Albania and they town Albanopolis
    Balkan i2a1b and Sardinian I2a1a separated from each other 12.000 years ago and that is realy long time to claim same culture .
    There is strong I2a1b in Bohemia , in Northwest Ukraine (Lviv district and Ivano-Frankovsk and that are not sea aerias ) and they are not even near any sea . Only ones rely god at sea during Midle ages were Neretlians , others were bether on land.
    Not only one time multitude of mounted archers crossed dinaric and burned Roman lands- Dalmatia( Bosnia and coastal Croatia ) - remember Huns ? Avars ? Do you believe they were also imagination , do they also smell like a lie .
    Emperor Hercleus called Serbs and Croats to settle on Balkans as shield against Avar attacks ( after 626 attack on Constantinopolis ) , and they do and Avars never again attacked that city , so it was not conquering they were given lands by emperor if they clean them of Avars .Read De administratio imperio
    Emperor Constantine( IV century) settled 500.000 Yazigi in Balkans provinces - so there was some Sarmathian DNA on Balkans before coming of Serbs and Croats .
    Who says there is no Roman influence on Balkans - on what data you base that statement? Turks didnt settled on Balkans , they just conquered it and use native nobility converted to islam ( or not ) , to control lands - Bosniacs do not have lot biger Turkic influence than Serbs or Greeks , and it is realy small in all Balkanic nations .

Page 11 of 27 FirstFirst ... 91011121321 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 71
    Last Post: 08-04-15, 03:05
  2. Your Thoughts on Public Nudity
    By strongvoicesforward in forum Psychology
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 07-01-12, 05:34
  3. What are your thoughts on Green Design Houses?
    By Revenant in forum Nature & Environment
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 23-05-06, 15:59

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •