Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

[sparkey]

Well, unless ancient DNA is found, this is all speculation, would you say that I2a-Din was mostly in ancient Dacia perhaps?

Agreed that it is speculation, I could be getting thrown by an apparent higher diversity in I2a-Din-N vs. I2a-Din-S that isn't really there. But provided it holds, my best guess is Milograd culture, or something similar that was outside what the Romans knew. How yes no is fond of the Veneti, which I think may be more likely than the Dacians.

 

[Goga]

Also Kurdish mtDNA is very similar to the folks from the Caucasus!

From "Georgian and Kurd mtDNA sequence analysis shows a lack of correlation between languages and female genetic lineages.":

Mitochondrial DNA sequences from Georgians and Kurds were analyzed in order to test the possible correlation between female lineages and languages in these two neighboring West Eurasian groups. Mitochondrial sequence pools in both populations are very similar despite their different linguistic and prehistoric backgrounds. Both populations present mtDNA lineages that clearly belong to the European gene pool, as shown by 1) similar nucleotide and sequence diversities; 2) a large number of sequences shared with the rest of European samples; 3) nonsignificant genetic distances; and 4) classification of the present lineages into the major European mtDNA haplogroups already described. The outlier position of the populations from the Caucasus according to classical genetic markers is not recognized in the present Georgian mtDNA sequence pool. This result suggests that the differentiation of mtDNA sequences in West Eurasia and the outlier features of Caucasian populations should be attributed to different processes. Moreover, the putative linguistic relationship between Caucasian groups and the Basques, another outlier population within Europe for classical genetic markers, is not detected by the analysis of mtDNA sequences.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10766939

 

[Taranis]

I can't speak for mtDNA since I have not examined the numbers, but in terms of Y-DNA the Ossetians proportion is way too different from other West Iranian groups, they're mostly dominant with G2a (Some Ossetian groups even reaching up to 70% and over), while West Iranian groups like the Kurds, Persians, etc are much more diverse, so in terms of Y-DNA frequency, the closest to the Ossetians are other neighboring Caucasian populations, in terms of mtDNA I don't know since I have not checked, and in terms of autosomal DNA, I once again don't know since there's no sample to compare with.

Well, there is certainly the possibility that the Ossetians are actually basically Scythianized Caucasians, rather than actually descendants from the ancient Scythians. At least this would fit with their DNA makeup.

 

[Goga]

Well, there is certainly the possibility that the Ossetians are actually basically Scythianized Caucasians, rather than actually descendants from the ancient Scythians. At least this would fit with their DNA makeup.

No, they're closer to West Iranians than to neighbouring Caucasians! So these folks ARE Iranic/Aryan, like their language!

from "Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians"

"Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequentand largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North andSouth Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously.
In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a common Iranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well as a genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the North Caucasus that mostly involved male individuals. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrationsas the Ossetians can provide additional insights into the circumstances surrounding such migrations."

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/N....AnHG.2004.pdf

 

[Cobol19]

Don't you believe this study?

I have not read it fully, but if I'm not mistaken, it only talks about deep ancestry (Y-DNA/mtDNA), there's no autosomal study in it, and as far as what it says, it looks like it agrees with what I say in terms of Y-DNA ancestry:

The mtDNA data suggest a common origin for North and South Ossetians, whereas the Y-haplogroup data indicate that North Ossetians are more similar to other North Caucasian groups, and South Ossetians are more similar to other South Caucasian groups, than to each other.

Though if you wanna talk based on mtDNA, the Kurds and Persians don't exactly match very well with one another in that respect:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2265662/table/TB2/

 

[Cobol19]

Well, there is certainly the possibility that the Ossetians are actually basically Scythianized Caucasians, rather than actually descendants from the ancient Scythians. At least this would fit with their DNA makeup.

In terms of Y-DNA, I agree, but that begs the question on what the Scythians were, I think by the time the Greeks started recording their history there was no such thing as Scythian ethnicity, they were probably a bunch of different groups and tribes from different ethnic backgrounds under one umbrella.

 

[Goga]

Though if you wanna talk based on mtDNA, the Kurds and Persians don't exactly match very well with one another in that respect:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2265662/table/TB2/

I don't know what you're up to, but Kurds, West Persians & Ossetians have the same Aryan origin and genetically they are the closest relatives to each other! And the closest folks to them are folks from the Caucasus!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10766939

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf

 

[Cobol19]

I don't know what you're up to, but Kurds, West Persians & Ossetians have the same origin and genetically they are the closest relatives to each other! And the closest folks to them are folks fro the Caucasus!

I'm not up to nothing, it's a discussion and there are facts from sources going around, if you want to sit there and discuss with respect based on evidence, be my guest, but if you wanna start pointing fingers again and getting paranoid, don't bother talking to me.

Listen, the data is right there, I was not the one who collected it nor was I the one who published it, if you have a problem with the facts, I don't know what to tell you, but in the end of the day, facts are facts, whether we like them or not, it does not change anything, there's the mtDNA chart in front of you, compare the Kurds and Persians then ask yourself this question, do they match? If it bothers you that much, stop discussing this subject and leave genetic topics alone.

 

[Goga]

Have you read the academic studies I posted? All these studies say that Aryan speaking Kurds, Ossetians & West Persians are very closely related to each other first and than to the folks in the Caucasus!

This are all FACTS!

mtDNA distribution in Iranian Kurdistan!

I - 5%
W - 10%
HV* - 10%
HV1 - 5%
HV2 - 5%
H - 10%
U5 - 5%
U7 - 20%
U8b - 10%
K - 10%
J1 - 10%

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/AJHG2004.pdf

Well according to the study called "Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians" Ossetians are very close to other West Iranic people.

Ossetians have almost the same DNA as other Aryans in West Asia like Kurds and West Persians!

"Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequentand largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North andSouth Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously.
In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a common Iranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well as a genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the North Caucasus that mostly involved male individuals. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrationsas the Ossetians can provide additional insights into the circumstances surrounding such migrations."

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf

Also Kurdish mtDNA is very similar to the folks from the Caucasus!

From "Georgian and Kurd mtDNA sequence analysis shows a lack of correlation between languages and female genetic lineages.":

Mitochondrial DNA sequences from Georgians and Kurds were analyzed in order to test the possible correlation between female lineages and languages in these two neighboring West Eurasian groups. Mitochondrial sequence pools in both populations are very similar despite their different linguistic and prehistoric backgrounds. Both populations present mtDNA lineages that clearly belong to the European gene pool, as shown by 1) similar nucleotide and sequence diversities; 2) a large number of sequences shared with the rest of European samples; 3) nonsignificant genetic distances; and 4) classification of the present lineages into the major European mtDNA haplogroups already described. The outlier position of the populations from the Caucasus according to classical genetic markers is not recognized in the present Georgian mtDNA sequence pool. This result suggests that the differentiation of mtDNA sequences in West Eurasia and the outlier features of Caucasian populations should be attributed to different processes. Moreover, the putative linguistic relationship between Caucasian groups and the Basques, another outlier population within Europe for classical genetic markers, is not detected by the analysis of mtDNA sequences.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10766939

 

[Cobol19]

Goga, technically speaking, European mtDNA is actually "West Asian" and this has nothing to do with Aryans, you do realize that these are lineages that existed way long before there was such thing as Proto-Indo-Europeans right? Let alone Aryans?

My mtDNA for example is T1, this same lineage is common among Germanic groups (Dutch specially) and apperantly, it's connected to the Vikings, does that make me a Viking too? No, the reality is this same lineage is connected to the people who migrated from Anatolia to Europe during the Neolithic times and spread agriculture, my main point is you have to expand your mind, not stick everything with Aryans.

I showed you the chart based on a recent study from 2007 and asked you a simple question, does the frequency of Kurdish mtDNA match the Persian sample or not? Mind you, deep ancestry frequencies are not that reliable to connect populations like this, autosomal DNA is the answer for such connections and based on that, Kurds and Persians are indeed closest to one another while the Ossetians are still up in the air due to insufficient data.

 

[Goga]

I showed you the chart based on a recent study from 2007 and asked you a simple question, does the frequency of Kurdish mtDNA match the Persian sample or not? Mind you, deep ancestry frequencies are not that reliable to connect populations like this, autosomal DNA is the answer for such connections and based on that, Kurds and Persians are indeed closest to one another while the Ossetians are still up in the air due to insufficient data.

First of all Aryans = speakers of Aryan language. Not all IE langauges are Aryan. Kurds, Ossetians etc. speak an Aryan language, so they're Aryans!

They also do share the same origin and have almost the same DNA. And are also closely connected to the Caucasus.

So what? Kurdish Y-DNA doesn't match very well with Persians and Ossetians either. Kurds have very much 'European' hg. I.
Kurds have even higher hg. I* percentage (MORE) than the most native folks in Europe do, more than folks in Belgium, France, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Russia, Latvia, Poland, Slovakia, Switzerland, Wales, Portugal etc. etc.

Y-DNA & mtDNA frequencies say nothing.

 

[Cobol19]

First of all Aryans = speakers of Aryan language. Not all IE langauges are Aryan. Kurds, Ossetians etc. speak an Aryan language, so they're Aryans!
They also do share same the same origin

So what Kurdish Y-DNA doesn't match very well with Persians and Ossetians either. Kurds have very much European hg. I. Even more than the most native folks in Europe, moren than in Belgium, France, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Russia, Latvia, Poland, Slovakia etc. etc.

Y-DNA & mtDNA frequencies say nothing.

Yes, Y-DNA/mtDNA does not connect populations, it only shows you the deep ancestry, by deep ancestry I'm talking about tracing the route out of our ancestral land in Africa, autosomal DNA is the only way to connect populations.

I also agree that the Europeans are not Aryans (Despite how many of them wrongly use the term), the term was coined by Indo-European speakers from Asia, so yes, Kurds, Persians, Pashtuns, North Indians, etc are Aryans, while Germans, Dutch, French, Greeks, etc are not.

 

[Goga]

Yes, Y-DNA/mtDNA does not connect populations, it only shows you the deep ancestry, by deep ancestry I'm talking about tracing the route out of our ancestral land in Africa, autosomal DNA is the only way to connect populations.

I also agree that the Europeans are not Aryans (Despite how many of them wrongly use the term), the term was coined by Indo-European speakers from Asia, so yes, Kurds, Persians, Pashtuns, North Indians, etc are Aryans, while Germans, Dutch, French, Greeks, etc are not.

The thing is that West Aryans (Kurds, West Persians & Ossetians) are genetically not the same as East Aryans, although East Aryans have very much West Asian DNA in them!

West Aryans are much closer to folks in the Caucasus than to the East Aryans! Kurds & Ossetians are MUCH closer to Georgians than to Aryan speakers in Central Asia.

And again, only the Aryan language connects West and East Aryans.

 

[Cobol19]

The thing is that West Aryans (Kurds, West Persians & Ossetians) are genetically not the same as East Aryans, although East Aryans have very much West Asian DNA in them!

West Aryans are much closer to folks in the Caucasus than to the East Aryans! Kurds & Ossetians are MUCH closer to Georgians than to Aryan speakers in Central Asia.

And again, only the Aryan language connects West and East Aryans.

Once again I will not speak about the Ossetians because I don't have an Ossetian sample to compare with, but here are the few Indo-Iranian groups that have been studied by Dienekes:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...owN3M3UWRyNnc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

The Kurds and Iranians (Persians for most part) are most closely related to one another, and both populations resemble other West Asian populations for most part, by west Asian, I mean Armenians, Anatolian Turks, and Assyrians rather than Caucasian populations.

Where the Kurds and Iranians differ from other West Asian populations is by their South Asian value, this value is also extremely high among Indo-Iranian populations living in South-Central Asia such as the Pathans, Baloch, and Kalash, this means there must have been some genetic wave from South-Central Asia to West Asia which likely brought the Iranian languages, and while the Kurds and Persians for most part are indeed natives to the lands they live on today, they must have been mixed with these Iranian tribes that left their language and some genetic imprint among the modern West Iranian groups.

 

[Goga]

Once again I will not speak about the Ossetians because I don't have an Ossetian sample to compare with, but here are the few Indo-Iranian groups that have been studied by Dienekes:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...owN3M3UWRyNnc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

The Kurds and Iranians (Persians for most part) are most closely related to one another, and both populations resemble other West Asian populations for most part, by west Asian, I mean Armenians, Anatolian Turks, and Assyrians rather than Caucasian populations.

What Dienekes is doing is not really science.

I'm talking here about the true ACADEMIC science. And the true ACADEMIC science says that Kurds, Ossetians and West Persians are closest folks to each other first and than to WEST ASIAN folks in the Caucasus, even to Caucasian West Asian Adygei in South Russia (which is technically in Europe)!

I don't know about Assyrians, but ironically Armenians and Turks are practically the same. Ironically because Turks killed many Armenians, lol!

But Kurds are closer to Aryan speaking West Persians, Ossetians and Caucasian speaking folks in the Caucasus, like Georgians, Adygei etc..

mtDNA distribution in Iranian Kurdistan!

I - 5%
W - 10%
HV* - 10%
HV1 - 5%
HV2 - 5%
H - 10%
U5 - 5%
U7 - 20%
U8b - 10%
K - 10%
J1 - 10%

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/AJHG2004.pdf

Well according to the study called "Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians" Ossetians are very close to other West Iranic people.

Ossetians have almost the same DNA as other Aryans in West Asia like Kurds and West Persians!

"Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequentand largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North andSouth Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously.
In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a common Iranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well as a genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the North Caucasus that mostly involved male individuals. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrationsas the Ossetians can provide additional insights into the circumstances surrounding such migrations."

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf

Also Kurdish mtDNA is very similar to the folks from the Caucasus!

From "Georgian and Kurd mtDNA sequence analysis shows a lack of correlation between languages and female genetic lineages.":

Mitochondrial DNA sequences from Georgians and Kurds were analyzed in order to test the possible correlation between female lineages and languages in these two neighboring West Eurasian groups. Mitochondrial sequence pools in both populations are very similar despite their different linguistic and prehistoric backgrounds. Both populations present mtDNA lineages that clearly belong to the European gene pool, as shown by 1) similar nucleotide and sequence diversities; 2) a large number of sequences shared with the rest of European samples; 3) nonsignificant genetic distances; and 4) classification of the present lineages into the major European mtDNA haplogroups already described. The outlier position of the populations from the Caucasus according to classical genetic markers is not recognized in the present Georgian mtDNA sequence pool. This result suggests that the differentiation of mtDNA sequences in West Eurasia and the outlier features of Caucasian populations should be attributed to different processes. Moreover, the putative linguistic relationship between Caucasian groups and the Basques, another outlier population within Europe for classical genetic markers, is not detected by the analysis of mtDNA sequences.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10766939

 

[razor]

I also agree that the Europeans are not Aryans (Despite how many of them wrongly use the term), the term was coined by Indo-European speakers from Asia, so yes, Kurds, Persians, Pashtuns, North Indians, etc are Aryans, while Germans, Dutch, French, Greeks, etc are not.

My apologies if you already know this, but I just can't resist =)) The last European Aryan probably died with the last self-conscious Alan. This is because in the Iranic language of the Alans -l- regularly substituted -ri-/-ry- So "Alan" was simply the Alanic pronunciation of "Aryan".

 

[Cobol19]

What Dienekes is doing is not really science.

I'm talking here about the true ACADEMIC science. And the true ACADEMIC science says that Kurds, Ossetians and West Persians are closest folks to each other first and than to WEST ASIAN folks in the Caucasus, even to Caucasian West Asian Adygei in South Russia (which is technically in Europe)!

I don't know about Assyrians, but ironically Armenians and Turks are practically the same. Ironically because Turks killed many Armenians, lol!

But Kurds are closer to Aryan speaking West Persians, Ossetians and Caucasian speaking folks in the Caucasus, like Georgians, Adygei etc..

If what Dienekes was doing is not scientific, it would not be praised by actual professional geneticists:

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101215/full/468880a.html

I think the issue here is that you're not familiar with genetics that much, read up on deep ancestry and autosomal DNA to know the difference, don't judge things without proper knowledge of them.

 

[Bodin]

Can you link me to some. I would really like to see it.

Hier is one of them:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15598217
I would recomend Cobolt to read it ot - it say north Ossetian mthDNA is closer to west Iranian than to Caucasus mthDNA

 

[Bodin]

Bodin, you seem to lack the knowledge in the subject of genetics, it's not called rape, it's called genetic drift, when people within the tribe intermarry one another, one lineage or two will likely be dominant, this is seen in other tribal people too, not just in the Caucasus.

As for the Amazons, I'm not talking about the Greek myths, I'm talking about the actual Scythian women warriors that existed, the term Amazon comes from the Iranian language which meant warriors.

What intrermarry in tribe ? South Ossetians are geneticaly more similar to South Caucasian group , and North Ossetians to North Caucasian groups , so they werent intermary in tribe but with neighboring nations - sims you are not realy versed in genetics
What Iranian languague - one that you just invented ? Greek : A - no , without + mazos - brest - by the legends they use to cut off one of they brests so they could easily use bow

 

[Bodin]

Bodin, I thought a little bit about this and I came to the conclusion that I2 in Serbs is not Slavic at all. If it was Slavic, Slavs would carry also a lot of hg. N into the Balkans, since hg. N in Russia is much older than hg. I2!

The only possibility that I2 is not Sarmatian but South Slavic is if Russians are not Slavic.

So I think that it is true that Sarmatians are not a fiction and that Serbs are Sarmatians! I think that Serbs together with the Croats are actually the real (purest) Sarmantians, and othern East European nations are partly Sarmatians, partly Slavic, partly Greek etc.. Like Bulgarians, Macedonians, Slovenians, Romanians, Belarussians and even Hungarians.

I think that Sarmatians and Cimmerians were almost the same people and shared the same origin! Because they came in the historical accounts almost at the same time.

That is what I trying to prove . Aldo Serbs and Croats also has nonSarmathian lineages - Serbs more Balkanic ( E1b1b and J ) , and Croats more Slavic ( R1a )