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Thread: Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

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    Listen, I can be wrong and you can be right. I'm not saying that I'm speaking the true. But saying that there're other possibilities too. Your theory does make sense. But it doesn't answer all questions.

    I'm just saying that Indo-Iranians and their proto-language evolved somewhere around the Caucasus and NOT in Central Asia! Who is saying that Indo-Iranian is from Central Asia? Have you seen evidences?

    Some of these proto-Indo-Iranians from Caucasus migrated into Central Asia, and part of these same proto-Indo-Iranians stayed in West Asia. This group became a West Iranic group!
    While the group of proto-Indo-Iranians that migrated into Central Asia on their way to Andronovo place they mixed with the Europeans and later with the local Central Asian people. They became known as the East Iranic group. Later part of this East Iranic group came to West Asia again (backmigration)!

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    I made a picture for you of what I think!

    Two blue arrows are 2 first migrations out of West Asia. Orange arrow = West Iranians and purple arrow = East Iranians.


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    All we can say is that historical literature has some of the Bastarnae migrating towards Dardania (with the reluctant consent of the Romans) in 29 BCE. Their subsequent fate is unknown. This is backed up by archaeological research which shows that the Bastarnian Poeneshti-Lukashovka culture disappears from the Middle and Lower Dnister in the last decades of the 1rst century BCE, but the two other major Bastarnian concentrations (in Western Polissia and on the Middle Dnipro) remain in place. The P/L Bastarnae were Yastorf culture migrants from the Elbe/Oder interfluvium. The likelihood of their having anything to do with the high percentage of E in contemporary Kosovo seems rather slim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post

    My point is that I believe that Kurds were always the same. And not as light (white) as Europeans. I don't think that Kurds are darker because of the Semites. But it's true what you're saying about the autosomal. Autosomal changes all the time and it depends on who your neighbours are. I think that the deep ancestry is saying more and Y-DNA is a very good tool to trace somebody’s origin!

    Maybe Serbs became lighter / whiter because of native Europeans?
    Color of skin is not realy important , it changes with climate , what realy matters is bone shape . Serbs lived in colder aerias and Kurds in wormer ones . If you would move Kurds in Norge , they would become much lighter in few hundred years .
    European E haplogroup is much more lighter than than East African ( look Austrians and Etiopeans)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I've problems with the connection to this site!

    I've got a question for you. Who lived on the Iranian Plateau before the Iranic tribes arrived there from Central Asia?

    Even Ossetians who are heavily mixed with the Germanic (+Slavic) tribes have only 25% of North European DNA. And they have almost the same percentage of West Asian component as their relatives Kurds and Persians. Of course I do realise that the Ossetians mixed with the native Caucasians too. But Ossetians are a very small ethnic group and they still do speak Iranic.

    If proto-IE folks are from South Caucasus, than Iranic peoples and their language are from West Asia too.

    Kurds have 15% of North European gene, because of the Central Asian East Iranic people and from the same folks who carried I2a into Kurdistan.

    As far as I know is hg. I in Kurds not from Central Asia!
    It seams they just assign North European autosomal to I haplogroup . I have 57% of North European ,and almoust every Serb or Croat I know have NorthEuropean component near to 60%

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    Scientific work that pointing out diferences in archeologies of Serbs and Slavs :
    Djordje Jankovic

    (Department of Archaeology, Faculty of Philosophy, Belgrade)
    The Serbs in the Balkans in the light of Archaeological Findings
    Source: The Serbian Questions in the Balkans, Faculty of Geography, Belgrade, 1995
    " In the second half of the 12th century, Wilhelm of Tyr wrote that the Serbs lived in mountains and woods, that they did not know much about agriculture, and that they had many herds of cattle, much milk, cheese, butter, honey, and wax.[16]
    This, still preserved, cattle breeding way of life of the Serbs was best described by Jovan Cvijic.[17] Their seasonal movements, singled out in his works, from the Dinaric region to the mesopotamia between the Sava and Drava rivers, and partly to the Littoral, gave an exact picture of the old Serbian ethnic area. The settlements were located in the mountainous regions, and in winter the pastures were looked for in the plains. The Serbs followed the same pattern in the Middle Ages as well, when they settled the Dinaric mountains, with many plateaus, and the neighbouring sunny valleys and plains suitable for winter homes. The arrangement of settlements and graveyards, the appearance of homesteads, the crafts, and the character of the population had to be in accordance with their way of life."
    "The culture of the South Slavs is well known thanks to the researches carried out in Bulgaria, Romania, and in our country.[22] The settlements were located in river valleys, on gentle slopes, close to the water. Half-buried wooden houses had stone or earthen furnaces in one of the corners. In most cases only the quadrangular buried construction and the furnace remained intact. They burnt their dead, as all other Slavs did, and then buried them in the ground, with or without urns. Such settlements and graveyards on the territory of the former Yugoslavia are known to exist in the Danube and in the Sava Basins.[23]
    The Serbs lived in hilly-mountainous regions. Their settlements with houses above the ground were situated on the slopes, close to wells and ponds. The fireplace was on the floor of the house, close to the wall or in the corner. Not much could be saved of these houses, so they are not easy to locate. The whereabouts of an early Serbian settlement have been established in the Pester field.[24] The only explored settlement is situated in Batkovici near the town of Bijeljina.[25] Shallow foundations of irregular shape - the remains of these houses above the ground - were found here. This settlement was populated throughout the Middle Ages, starting from the early 7th century.
    The Serbs cremated their dead and displayed the remains above the ground. It was a special way of burial in the air. Only under certain conditions the archaeological findings of this custom could be called graves. This procedure with the dead is depicted in the Story of the Past.[26] These "graves" were archaeologically explored in the area of Luzicani.[27] Today, they are small mounds of about 3 m in diameter and 0.5 m by height. The construction of the burial mounds has not been sufficiently explored. Shattered pieces of the dishes which were used in the funeral and memorial feasts are sometimes found along the brim or inside the burial mound.
    The Serbian graveyards from the 7th and 8th centuries were archaeologically explored in Ljutici near the town of Pljevlja, and on Mount Jezerska between the towns of Prizren and Strpce.[28] Since these burial mounds were easy to notice, they were also found on many other sites - on Mount Pester and by the towns of Savnik, Drvar, Grahovo, Srb, etc. A burial mound near the town of Konjic was partly explored.[29] With the abundance of earthenware findings, it is similar to the burial mounds on the Danube river found on Ostrovul Mare in Romania.[30] These graveyards can hardly be preserved on cultivable land with no rocks. In the Pannonian Plain, or on similar grounds, they could only be preserved and noticed by accident. The graveyard on Ostrovul Mare is not destroyed as there were meadows there, not cultivable land.
    The graveyards with burial mounds are usually located near a water spring, which shows that there were settlements in the vicinity. As a rule, even today, modern settlements and sheepfolds are situated close to these graveyards although no traces of the previous settlements have been discovered so far. But, they existed and this is supported by indirect proofs of social life in the vicinity. Namely, in the Story of the Past were depicted pagan "igrista" (playgrounds) between the villages.[31] There, the pagan Slavs gathered, danced, and got married. In Emperor Dushan's Charter (1331-1355) to Chilandarion, in which the boundaries near the monastery of St. Peter Koriski were described, a toponym for one of the peaks of Mount Jezerska was "Igriste".[32] This means that both the Serbian graveyard and a pagan centre of social life were situated on Mount Jezerska, which certainly proves that people lived there in the surrounding villages. Such toponyms still exist. For example, in central Bosnia, east of the town of Kakanj, there is Igrisca peak (1303 m) and on Mount Javor, south of Vlasenica - Igriste (1406 m).
    So, the Serbian settlements as well as their graveyards were situated in the hilly-mountainous region such as the Dinaric region. In these regions people mostly raised cattle. The line that connects the locations of the explored burial mounds denotes the area in which the Serbs lived in the 7th and 8th centuries: from the divide of the Sitnica and Lepenac rivers in the south-east to the basin of the Una river in the west. There are no data about the eastern boundaries so far."
    "The area beyond these boundaries offers archaeological traces of the South Slavs and other peoples. The graveyards common in the South Slav culture, with the remains of the dead cremated and buried in the ground, have been discovered in the Danube basin (Celarevo, Slankamen)[33] and in the Sava basin (Laktasi, Bijeljina).[34] These findings determine the former northern boundaries of the Serbs. Such graves in the Littoral could possibly belong to the Croats (Kasic,[35] Bakar[36]). Within the boundaries of the medieval Croatia, in the Littoral, archaeologists found numerous skeleton graveyards which undoubtedly belonged to the Croats from the time when they adopted Christianity in the 8th and 9th centuries.[37] These graveyards determine the possible south-western boundaries of the Serbs.
    Apart from the Slavs, the population that spoke the Romance languages also lived on this territory. The archaeological findings until the 7th century inclusive give information about the Romanic people or Byzantines living in the hinterland.[38] The Romanic people, known in the written sources, stayed longer in the Littoral - in the towns such as Durazzo, Dubrovnik or Zadar. The town of Svac, about 10 km far from the Coast and Ulcinj, is very significant.[39] The crypts in which the dead were buried in the Christian tradition were discovered in this town. Byzantine jewellery, dishes, and other objects known in the Byzantine regions extending from Crimea, across Sicily, to Istria were found lying by the skeletons. The objects of the Slav origin, such as pots made on a slow wheel and decorated with a comb, were also found. Similar graveyards were also discovered in Durazzo.[40]"
    "These Byzantine graveyards are particularly important for establishing the origin of the Koman-Kruje culture. This culture appeared at the end of the 7th century and disappeared in the 9th. Albanian scientists are trying to use this culture in order to prove the continuity between the old Romanized population and the Albanians of today.[41] However, these skeleton graveyards conceal the remains of special costumes and presents. Unique buckles, shackles known with some nomads, axes as weapons, and imported Byzantine jewellery were found. These findings differentiate this population from the Romanic people of Svac and Durazzo, where there are no such objects. Since the graveyards in the Koman-Kruje culture are situated in the mountains, one should have in mind cattle breeders here. They lived in the area from Mount Rumija to Ohrid Lake. Everything points to the fact that the bearers of the Koman-Kruje culture arrived there at the end of the 7th century.[42] They were probably settled in the region in order to defend the Durazzo-Salonica road, and they were destroyed when the Bulgarians started spreading in the hinterland of Durazzo in the 9th century.
    Archaeological findings of the South Slav, Romanic, and Croatian tribes as well as of the Koman-Kruje culture delineate the ethnic area of the Serbs. It is necessary to point out that all the archaeological data on the Serbs coincide with those of their neighbours."




    Dr Djordje Jankovic
    Assistant Professor in the Department of Archaeology, Faculty of Philosophy, University of Belgrade. He teaches Medieval Archaeology from the 4th to the 17th centuries. He has published about twenty scientific papers in medieval archaeology, in particular within the area of Slav Archaeology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Color of skin is not realy important , it changes with climate , what realy matters is bone shape . Serbs lived in colder aerias and Kurds in wormer ones . If you would move Kurds in Norge , they would become much lighter in few hundred years .
    European E haplogroup is much more lighter than than East African ( look Austrians and Etiopeans)
    I can confirm you. I have the same observation. But from my observation it has less to do with the heat rather than solar latitude and clear sky. In Regions were the Sun is hide behind clouds and there is more fog, the People are usually lighter. Also living conditions and food play a role in physical appearance.

    The Skin color varies from Pink-Pale to light olive.



    In Regions were the sky is more clear and the people have more direct contact with the sun on their skin, they have usually a tan and look darker.


    The Genes a person carries is the Hardware. These Hardwares usually have their own latitude of phenotypes and skin color (Caucasians have a huge latitude of skin color, Sub Saharan Africans less) depending on which software you install (Living conditions, Solar latitude and food).
    Last edited by Alan; 01-10-11 at 15:39.

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    just a thought,

    has anybody thought that word sarmatians may come from word Samartians,

    area of Samara north east of Caucas,

    the people of Samara = samartians, for easy spell become Sarmatians,

    Not a theory, just a thought,

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    just a thought,

    has anybody thought that word sarmatians may come from word Samartians,

    area of Samara north east of Caucas,

    the people of Samara = samartians, for easy spell become Sarmatians,

    Not a theory, just a thought,
    Thats where they where once, they pushed the germanic Bastanae and goths eastward in the 3rd century
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    I was impressed by the strongest and most valid argument based on the nomination of the currency Dinar. By the way, how Roman Denarius fits into the frame? This political theory is quite old and starts more than a century ago with the need of Croats to differ from their neighbors. Before of that other theories were launched to make difference between Slav speakers on Balkans. Each and every of them was not waterproof at all and all of them ended miserably. JAT people do have the same problem, how to differ from Hindi and Pakistani people.

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    I am back !
    First : when you looking for words with common origins just remove vowels so Samara ( SMR ) and Saramathian ( SRMTH) do not have same origins .
    Second : name of Roman currency Denarius is taken from Persian currency - Tadaaaah : Iranian origin . Also mountain Dinara and Dinaric chain of mountains is place originaly inhabited by Serbs and Croats ( Belgrad is inhabitet by Serbs only since XIV century )and it also have Iranic name.

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    Dinar started with Sassanid Dynasty (224 – 651 AD) in Persia. It is far later than Roman Denarius coin was in circulation. Manipulation with similar toponymes has been many times the way to false conclusions so let us drop Dinara, Beograd… I would like, better I would love to be a descendent of great Sarmatia but one is troubling me: Nordtvedt has confirmed I2a1b1 is not older than 2500/ 2,800 years. Meaning that the first carrier was born around 7th century BC. This guy had to be hyperactive and he had to have at least 100 concubines to create an army capable to control 1/3 of Europe just in few centuries after his birth.

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    Even worse for Bodin. Nordtvedt has refined his computations. Dinaric (N) has a MRCA who was born around 300 BCE and Dinaric (S) has a MRCA born around 30 BCE.

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    Well Sarmathian as all of Iranic were known to have many wifes .
    But the common ancestor of I2a1b N and S was slowly replaced by Din S and Din N. And what about diferences in archeology betwen Serbs and Croats and Slavs . If I2a1b is brought by Slavs, than Serbs would also have lot more of Slavic R1a ( 3.500 years old ) - not only 5% , and most of that was brought by Goths - so Slavic influence is realy small .
    Only conection is languague and desire of ortodox church to Serbs and Russians be close as plausible because they are both ortodox and that is god way to keep catholicism away

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    By the way nice COA of Černojević dinasty , with very nice Sarmathian dragon on helmet - hail societatis draconistratum

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Well Sarmathian as all of Iranic were known to have many wifes .
    But the common ancestor of I2a1b N and S was slowly replaced by Din S and Din N. And what about diferences in archeology betwen Serbs and Croats and Slavs . If I2a1b is brought by Slavs, than Serbs would also have lot more of Slavic R1a ( 3.500 years old ) - not only 5% , and most of that was brought by Goths - so Slavic influence is realy small .
    Only conection is languague and desire of ortodox church to Serbs and Russians be close as plausible because they are both ortodox and that is god way to keep catholicism away
    The genetic markers of Slavs were manifold, with I2a1b1 and R1a-M458 predominating. During the Slavic expansion more I2a pushed south and more R1a pushed west and north. BTW I2a1b1 (N)= Din N, and I2a1b1 (S)= Din S. These are not different markers!
    Why would Sarmatians have massively switched to the language of a small minority which acc. to you wasn't even dominant? This makes no sense at all I'm afraid.
    Last edited by razor; 24-10-11 at 02:15. Reason: spelling

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    Once again: I would love that you are right. On the other hand I can’t accept something that does not seem based on reality/ facts that are easily proven. As far as I can see Dinaric people are from the border of Germany and Poland. Rotkovic has written a very good book about Montenegrin ancestors and their homeland – Eastern Germany now days. He places Serbs and Croats as their neighbors. This was done 10 years before Nordvet studies – he puts there the first bearer of DIN around Vistula. Rotkovic has found more than 800 rivers, lakes, cities, villages existing today in Montenegro and their matches in old German church books. Moreover, they located in the same way/ sequence in MNE as they were located in Eastern Germany/ Western Poland. These facts with other provided do make us now able to locate the homeland of Montenegrins, Bosnians, Serbs and Croats. They were Slav Speakers but fully independent and respected by Saxons and ancient Polish tribes.
    One more that bothers me about “your” theory is BAD COMPANY. The promoters of the idea are persons that do not have real scientific background. Just check the “language” called Gan-Veyãn and legends related to the story/ crucial proofs of Iranian ancestry. According to the legends told by Gan- Veyan spekers 6 ships coming from Persia have have conquered the Adriatic coast and islands. Every ship would have to carry 10.000 persons on board to invade and populate densly populated region. The climax of the story is that Croat sailors have saild to both Americas before Vikings and before Columbus. Also they have saild to the Far East and there one could find millions of decendens with Dinaric genes just because of the fact that Croats are superb lovers/ undisputed champions of girls worlwide. All the time they were singing „Marjane, Marjane“ song while discovering Americas and Far East, also during sessions with Far East girls.
    At the present is hard to find people speaking Gan-Veyan due to the fact that comunist partisans were deliberatlly killing them to wipe out any of their presence at the end of the II World War. The goal was to extint any proof of Iranic population existance on Balcans. Of course they did those kind of attrocities – they were devotid to the goal to kill all Gan- Vayan speakers. Germans, Italians and others were secondary target.
    I have made it funny on purpose because these individuals promoting the idea are quite funny (The Dragon of Tanais /Ivo Biondic; Mitjel Yoshamya/ Iranian name for Mihovil Lovrić).
    Something fishy about the construction coming from them and arguments they are using.
    No offence meant and I hope none taken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    And what about diferences in archeology betwen Serbs and Croats and Slavs .
    I'm wondering about your archaeological quote from Dr. Jankovic. Are you sure he's talking about Serbs and not about Vlachs? Vlachs and some Albanians were transhumant pastoralists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razor View Post
    The genetic markers of Slavs were manifold, with I2a1b1 and R1a-M458 predominating. During the Slavic expansion more I2a pushed south and more R1a pushed west and north. BTW I2a1b1 (N)= Din N, and I2a1b1 (S)= Din S. These are not different markers!
    Why would Sarmatians have massively switched to the language of a small minority which acc. to you wasn't even dominant? This makes no sense at all I'm afraid.
    And why would all R1a go north and I2a1b south , they didnt have genetic in that times so they could separate that way ?
    Yes it makes sence , there is few posibilities : maybe slavic was lingua franca in Hunic empire , maybe Sarmathians married Slavic womens and than went to war ( both Sarmathian men and woman use to go to war ) and Slavs womans stayed with childs and childs learned slavic languague - childrens always learn languague of mothers - same thing happened in Basque

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergius View Post
    Once again: I would love that you are right. On the other hand I can’t accept something that does not seem based on reality/ facts that are easily proven. As far as I can see Dinaric people are from the border of Germany and Poland. Rotkovic has written a very good book about Montenegrin ancestors and their homeland – Eastern Germany now days. He places Serbs and Croats as their neighbors. This was done 10 years before Nordvet studies – he puts there the first bearer of DIN around Vistula. Rotkovic has found more than 800 rivers, lakes, cities, villages existing today in Montenegro and their matches in old German church books. Moreover, they located in the same way/ sequence in MNE as they were located in Eastern Germany/ Western Poland. These facts with other provided do make us now able to locate the homeland of Montenegrins, Bosnians, Serbs and Croats. They were Slav Speakers but fully independent and respected by Saxons and ancient Polish tribes.
    One more that bothers me about “your” theory is BAD COMPANY. The promoters of the idea are persons that do not have real scientific background. Just check the “language” called Gan-Veyãn and legends related to the story/ crucial proofs of Iranian ancestry. According to the legends told by Gan- Veyan spekers 6 ships coming from Persia have have conquered the Adriatic coast and islands. Every ship would have to carry 10.000 persons on board to invade and populate densly populated region. The climax of the story is that Croat sailors have saild to both Americas before Vikings and before Columbus. Also they have saild to the Far East and there one could find millions of decendens with Dinaric genes just because of the fact that Croats are superb lovers/ undisputed champions of girls worlwide. All the time they were singing „Marjane, Marjane“ song while discovering Americas and Far East, also during sessions with Far East girls.
    At the present is hard to find people speaking Gan-Veyan due to the fact that comunist partisans were deliberatlly killing them to wipe out any of their presence at the end of the II World War. The goal was to extint any proof of Iranic population existance on Balcans. Of course they did those kind of attrocities – they were devotid to the goal to kill all Gan- Vayan speakers. Germans, Italians and others were secondary target.
    I have made it funny on purpose because these individuals promoting the idea are quite funny (The Dragon of Tanais /Ivo Biondic; Mitjel Yoshamya/ Iranian name for Mihovil Lovrić).
    Something fishy about the construction coming from them and arguments they are using.
    No offence meant and I hope none taken.
    None taken offcourse we are hier to debate .
    The same stories were spocken about Slavic ancestry of Balkanic nations - they even claimed Goths , Bastarnae , Swede , Sarmathae , Heruli ,... to be Slavic , they claimed Slavs conquered Egypt , ... Slavs are from Atlantis ,... There is always peoples ready to make fairy tales . So dont look every one that walks with me , when you judge me.
    And yes Serbs used to live in Bohemia ( Czech republik ) , Lužica ( Deutschland ) and parts of Bavaria and west Poland before moving to Balkans and Croats in Czech and Moravia , so river names simmilar to ours there are not suprise . You probably missunderstud me I havent said Sarmathians comed to Balkans directly from steppes - they are moving to west since 2 century AD.
    And in that times there was no separate Montengro nation it was born in XVII century and created of Serbs ( in Sandžak = Brda part of Rascia not Dioclitia) , Serbs and Red Croats in East Hercegovina ( Nikšić ) , Red Croats and Albanians in Dioclitia . I am not trying to say Montenegros are not separate nation today

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    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by razor View Post
    I'm wondering about your archaeological quote from Dr. Jankovic. Are you sure he's talking about Serbs and not about Vlachs? Vlachs and some Albanians were transhumant pastoralists.
    No he is speacking about Serbs and Croats - they were pastoralists - look at Hercegovina anybody who live of agriculture would never survive there - and that is main place of Serbo-Croatian settling . Serbs and Croats settled mountains , not plains , and in any scientific book you would find that they were mainly pastoralists and use agriculture only as bonus income . They also never made villages next to river banks like Slavs , they villages are alway on hils few miles from river

  22. #597
    Junior Member Sergius's Avatar
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    Country: Montenegro



    I am not talking about similarities in names of rivers, villages, mountains. I am talking about Montenegrin ancestors moving complete “geography” in new homeland. Meaning that all of them are identically named and placed in the same order as they were in old homeland. Reason? To keep the memory, to keep the magic order….
    This facts coupled with new dating of Dinaric haplotype are in perfect correspondence. The first bearer near Vistula, ancestors of Montenegrins, ancestors of Serbs and ancestors Croats located there near Vistula several centuries later in the same region. Moved together as neighbors to Balkans with A LOT of other Slavs, Goths…. Everything has sense and it is in logical order.
    About Iranian influence on Balkan nations – you are right of course. As great nation and great civilization they did influence whole of Europe. The problem is that our history is a way to Eurocentric. Egypt, Persia, India, China… They did not exist and everything starts with ancient Greeks just because they lived in Europe. Taking that fact into account one must be aware that influence of Persia was always on the margin of European history. This influence has changed a lot Europeans and Slavs among them. The influence does not have to be necessarily by genes. Take as example Khazars and Jewish influence that has shaped their kingdom without influence of major number of Jewish newcomers. Culture, symbols, terms, religion, music can move around just due to the fact that is superior.
    P.S. Just take into consideration what kind of European Cuisine we would have without Persian influence. BLJAK!

  23. #598
    Junior Member Sergius's Avatar
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    Country: Montenegro



    You are right about Montenegrins – at the time being they did not form a nation and my term is Montenegrin ancestors. The same goes for Serbs and Croats.
    About forming all of modern Balkan nations I can tell you something that slowly starts to be accepted in EX of Yugoslavia. Mostly they are a product of religious efforts and they are basically formed around one of 3 major religions. Therefore theories like Iranian one are needed to strengthen to myth.

    Check the language in Croatia and you must see many dialects of different Slav origin. Some are so far apart that they communicate easily only using the official language. The same goes for Serbs.
    The cohesive force was the Catholic Church in Croatia. Please be kind to find IVAN MUŽIĆ and his HRVATSKA POVIJEST DEVETOGA STOLJEĆA. He places first Croats settlers in Lika and Krbava. Around them he places other Slavs, Latin people, Dalmatians….
    Therefore, I would not go so far to place Red Croats on modern soil of Montenegro so easily. The fact that they have made wars latter conquering each other territories, intermarriages of nobles and inheritance of the thrones are not proving Croat, Serb or Bosnian ethnical movements towards Montenegro

  24. #599
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Old thread, but I haven't contributed yet. So here are my thoughts.

    The Scythians and Sarmatians were Iranian-speakers. Like all Indo-Iranian people, they descended from the Sintashta-Petrovka culture (2100-1750 BCE), itself descended from the Abashevo culture (2500-1900 BCE) in the forest-steppe zone of central European Russia. As such, the Scythians and Sarmatians were essentially an R1a people.

    However, the Proto-Iranians conquered other Indo-European tribes from the Pontic Steppe and Central Asia, notably in Chorasmia, Margiana and Bactria. These people must have included a substantial number of R1b (M269 and M73) lineages, as well as minorities of G1, G2a3b1 and J2. Around modern Ukraine it is reasonable to think that I2a1b (M423) people were assimilated by the Scythians and Sarmatians, although I doubt that I2a1b lineages were part of the original Iranian speakers.

    Judging from the haplogroups found among the Pashtuns of Afghanistan, speakers of an East Iranian language descended from Scythian, and the Ossetians, who claim to descend from the Alans/Sarmatians and speak a language descended from Sarmatian, it is very likely that the Scytho-Sarmatians were an admixture of R1a, R1b, G2a and J2a. It is odd, however, to see the huge discrepency between the haplogroups of the Ossetians (mostly G2a, with some R1b and J2a, but hardly any R1a) and the Pashtuns (55% of R1a, with some G2a and J2a). That may be because the Alans were an ethnically different people from the mainstream Sarmatians. The Alans were probably not even an ethnic group in themselves, but rather a coalition of different people, as the 4th-century Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus explained.

    Overall, I believe that over 50% (perhaps as much as 80%) of Scythians and Sarmatians paternal lineages must have been R1a, and mostly the eastern R1a-Z93 (+ subclades). The biggest minority haplogroup would have been R1b (10-20% of the total). Then minor percentages of G2a, J2 and maybe traces of T.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 23-12-13 at 16:16.
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  25. #600
    Regular Member
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    Country: Russian Federation



    Map of work "Early Scythians and the ancient East. On the history of the formation of the Scythian culture "Pogrebova M.N, Raevskii D.S, 1992, showing the boundary of the formation of the early Scythian culture complex.
    http://f-lite.ru/lfp/s52.radikal.ru/...3e6362.jpg/htm


    "Borders" of early Scythian culture(West Caucasus, and North-West Iran) and haplogroup G
    http://f-lite.ru/lfp/s017.radikal.ru...e4bb03.jpg/htm
    http://alterling2.narod.ru/Il/ScythMeison1R.jpg

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