Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

[Bodin]

Bodin, I don't think you understand what tribal culture is like nor do you know what people intermarrying within a tribe means, I'm not gonna baby-step you through it, when people within the same tribe intermarry, one lineage usually comes off too high, in the case of Ossetian groups, G2a seems like that lineage, it's due to a genetic drift, if you don't understand that, it's not my problem.




Nobody cares about Serbians and Croatians in this subject, they're irrelevant, as far as I know, they speak a Slavic language and they carry Southeast European genes for most part, unless they find "Ancient DNA" for Scythians/Sarmatians carrying haplogroup I2a, you have no argument here, so stop wasting your breath on this useless argument.

Soon we'll find out, don't worry.

The C was carried among the Andronovo culture (Kurgan culture / Proto-Indo-Iranians):

View attachment 5180



I don't even understand this, the English is very bad.



What does I2a1b have to do with Medes crushing the Assyrians? This is stupid and has nothing to do with anything, well, Medes and Chaldeans crushed the Assyrians, the Persians crushed the Medes and Chaldeans, the Macedonians/Greeks crushed the Persians, etc, we can go on and on, but unless you have evidence that I2a1b existed among ancient Iranians, your arguments are useless and you have no point, and when I say evidence, I mean "Ancient DNA" studies, is there any ancient DNA of I2a1b found among ancient Iranians? If not, please stop repeating yourself.

Well you seem to understand and know realy little.South and North Ossetians are diferent - south are closser to South Caucasian nations and North Ossetian to North Caucasian nations - THAT COULD ONLY MEAN THEY MIXED HEAVILY WITH NEIGHBOURS AND THATS HOW THEY GET THEY G DNA.That has nothing to do with intermarrying
Ofcourse Serbs and Croats are realy relevant when we speack about I2a1b haplogroup -they have most of it in whole world . I dont know what do you think we should talk about regarding I2a1b
Yes there was some C in Andronovo , but you mentioned it in conection with Scythians , and that is why I neaded to corect you
about bad English part : You said Europeans are not Aryans , and this is not truth . Aryans is term used by every IE speacker , egzamples : Vandalic tribe Hazdingi used to be called Haria ; one of Frankish tribes is RipuArians ; Roman personal name Arian ; Ossetians call themselves Iron and they languague Iraetae
Your arguing is also pointless because you dont have any ancient findings of I2a1b on Balkans , ofcourse Serbs and Croats would havea lot of southeast european autosomal DNA - that is where they live
Have you been in some diplomacy or secret service school ? You seam very skillfool in twisting the facts , and avoiding to answer the questions , I am well aware of all techniques of Black and White propaganda so it dont going to pass . What is reason you believe I2a1b is Balkanic?

 

[Bodin]

For the part I am concerned, and that is your subsequent use of the word rape, I have not seen any hint about it there, nor the evidence about wars between male population that are connected with G haplogroup being so high among Ossetians.

That is just your explanation of how this happened, where you have tried to copy the behavior of Balkan nations on the Caucasus. And it is not so applicable as one might think. Yes there were some atrocities, but just on the borderline, and those were of a newer date, when Stalins deportations, new borders, alongside with destroying the code of honor which was previosly respected for ages, led to wars. And those atrocities did not change population genetics. Most of the time people of the Caucasus lived alongside each other respecting each others living space, surely, once the first skirmishes have passed. Mountain code of honor and laws were much more strict than todays laws and values they are trying to protect.

Actually I dont believe at all that there were so much wars and let alone that these alleged wars lasted so long that they completely changed the genetics in favor of one particular group. I just went along your theory and tried to explain that what you saw on Balkan is not a copy paste situation.

Here you just needed something for your theory to work, so you thought of wars, rapes, killing, atrocities. But, it would be like if wars on Balkans led to some radical change in population genetics. This did not happen.

Actually the populations became more ethnically clean because of deportations, and genetics was not changed so much at all, but the core was rather strengtened. This might sound strange but the real changes happen in time of peace, and this you can copy paste everywhere. In 50 years of peace population of Yugoslavia became much more intermingled, and that subsequently and unfortunately led to wars and atrocties, and those, as much as it might sound surprising to you, did not change the core of population in the way you tried to explain.

What I was saying was that you do not need rape and wars to explain your theory. There is genetic drift that by itself is enough to explain the high G.

Caucasus is realy one of most turbulent places in world - so there was a lot of wars . There was almoust permanent war betwen Georgians and Ossetians during they settling on Caucasus XIII - XV century . About mixing in Yugoslavia in peace - yes it was strongest then , but Yugoslavia in that time was not tribal society , in tribal societies it is forbiden for girl to willingly marry man from other nation . There use to be custom to stone such a girls ( present even today in some parts of Kurdistan , Iran and Turkey)
Book about settling of Ossetians:
http://www.nplg.gov.ge/dlibrary/coll/0001/000355/
Ofcourse all of G ( and others) didnt come from rape but some of it is

 

[Cobol19]

Well you seem to understand and know realy little.South and North Ossetians are diferent - south are closser to South Caucasian nations and North Ossetian to North Caucasian nations - THAT COULD ONLY MEAN THEY MIXED HEAVILY WITH NEIGHBOURS AND THATS HOW THEY GET THEY G DNA.That has nothing to do with intermarrying

Of course they're gonna mix with other Caucasian groups, they live in the same region and some admixture will happen, but I'm telling you, their high number of haplogroup G2a is a genetic drift, that's usually the case when you have a very small population that has an extremely high number for one lineage.

Ofcourse Serbs and Croats are realy relevant when we speack about I2a1b haplogroup -they have most of it in whole world . I dont know what do you think we should talk about regarding I2a1b

Yes, but the topic is not about I2a1b, it's about Scyhian/Sarmatian DNA, so far there's no such thing as I2a1b in ancient Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, why are you even bringing it up? If you're talking about R1a1a, I would understand, but why the need to bring I2a1b? There's no logic in this.

Yes there was some C in Andronovo , but you mentioned it in conection with Scythians , and that is why I neaded to corect you

The Andronovo culture was Proto-Indo-Iranian, they were partial ancestors of other Indo-Iranian populations (Which the Scythians are part of), and like the Scythians, they were steppe Kurgan nomads.

about bad English part : You said Europeans are not Aryans , and this is not truth . Aryans is term used by every IE speacker , egzamples : Vandalic tribe Hazdingi used to be called Haria ; one of Frankish tribes is RipuArians ; Roman personal name Arian ; Ossetians call themselves Iron and they languague Iraetae

The Ossetians are Aryans because they inherited an Aryan culture and language, the Europeans are not Aryans because they don't have that culture or language, as for the names of the tribes you brought up, you're just turning things as you please, Ripuarian Franks does not mean Aryans, this is what it means:

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Ripuarian_Franks

And the Haddingjar were Germanic, I don't know where you come up with that word but Haria is not Arya, and I can't find anything online that connects Haddingjar with Aryans, so if you will, provide your sources please.

Your arguing is also pointless because you dont have any ancient findings of I2a1b on Balkans , ofcourse Serbs and Croats would havea lot of southeast european autosomal DNA - that is where they live
Have you been in some diplomacy or secret service school ? You seam very skillfool in twisting the facts , and avoiding to answer the questions , I am well aware of all techniques of Black and White propaganda so it dont going to pass . What is reason you believe I2a1b is Balkanic?

You're right, there's no I2a1b in ancient DNA so let's stop talking about it because it's a haplogroup that is not relevant to the subject.

Btw, I said I2a1b is Southeast European, I did not say it was Balkanic, though I did say that it entered Anatolia from the Balkans (A genetic wave from the Balkans), that does not mean it originated there.

 

[Bodin]

You do realize that mtDNA and Y-DNA don't tell the whole story nor do they make populations closer to one another right? If I was to say certain groups are closer to one another because they carry a certain haplogroup, the majority of the British population that carry R1b are closer to African people from Cameroon than they are to Russians, Ukrainians, Serbians, etc, would you agree with that?

ofcourse it dont tell the whole story , but it say some of it . No prove is god enough for you . You should look combination of YDNA haplogroups not only one of them , combination of mthDNA haplogroups, estimeted ages of haplogroups , and autosomal DNA ( its changes fastest - so its not so reliable ).You cant just take particle without whole picture and use it as prove - so British R1b is closser to Cameroon R1b than to Russian R1a , but there are other things that make British closer to Russians than to Cameroonians

 

[Cobol19]

ofcourse it dont tell the whole story , but it say some of it . No prove is god enough for you . You should look combination of YDNA haplogroups not only one of them , combination of mthDNA haplogroups, estimeted ages of haplogroups , and autosomal DNA ( its changes fastest - so its not so reliable ).You cant just take particle without whole picture and use it as prove - so British R1b is closser to Cameroon R1b than to Russian R1a , but there are other things that make British closer to Russians than to Cameroonians

Yes, it's called Autosomal DNA, thank you for proving my point.

 

[Bodin]

Not for linguistic science it isn't. They're not interested in popular etymologies. There's a lot of those around. Yours reminds me of a more famous one: Ihumen Sylvester's interpretation of "Poljani" in the Kyivan Primary Chronicle as "inhabitants of the steppes". It's actually the alanized version of the original Scythian ethnonym "Poli" (as recorded in Diodorus).

Yes it is .Alanliao is Chinese word and mean Land of steppes - and thats how Alans get they name , that is only explanation I have heird of , now i would like to hier your version of origins of name Alani .They called themselves Yasi , Asi ,Aorsi...
And please I would like to know what Poli means on Scythian , my assumption is that is Scythian word , accepted by Slavs and it means field .
In steppes North of Black sea division of nations on " ones that lives in forest " and " ones that lives in steppes " was common : Goths : Tervingi and Greutungi ; Slavs Drevljani and Poljani ; Scythians : forest and steppes Scythians in Herodothus

 

[Bodin]

When you mean deep ancestry in general, that includes both of the Y-DNA and mtDNA, I should keep reminding you and others that comparing Y-DNA/mtDNA between populations is not a sure thing, the only way to compare populations and determine their closeness is by their autosomal DNA (That's how Dienekes compares people in his project), the reason for that is because your Y-DNA/mtDNA are only 2 lines out of thousands and thousands of ancestors, let's take a simple example:

You = 1
Your parents = 2
Grandparents = 4
Great Grandparents = 8
Great Great Grandparents = 16
Great Great Great Grandparents = 32
Great Great Great Great Grandparents = 64
So on.

Your Y-DNA/mtDNA only represents 2 lines, this is not enough to determine what you are, for instance you could be a pure Mongolian looking person living in the steppes of Mongolia, but your Y-DNA could be R1b, does that makes you Mongolian or Western European? Mongolian of course, because the majority of your ancestors are Mongolians despite your non-Mongolian paternal lineage.

Autosomal DNA changes realy fast , so in few generations most of settlers will resemble old population , so autosomal DNA is least secure way to find out someone ancestry .
Yes Ydna and mth DNA showing only two lines of your ancestors , but when you compare population you will get many lines - and that is most certain way of investigating ancestry

 

[Bodin]

You are twisting things up a little bit. Dienekes samples are mainly limited to Iraqi Kurds and some 23andme samples which again are mainly from Iraq and Iran. Your statement ist wrong. Kurds and Iranians are not the same, they only share a similar genetic structure based on their Iranic heritage but there is still a considerable difference. I will take Dienekes Iraqi Kurdish samples as example. The similarities are between both Iraqi Kurds and Iranians higher South(central) Asian ANI as well West/East European in compare to Assyrians. However the difference between Iraqi Kurds and Iranians is more Mediterranean in I. Kurds, a bit less West Asian but at the same time a bit more East/West European than Iranians. This are indeed as much differences as there are similarities.

He twisting things all the time

 

[Cobol19]

Autosomal DNA changes realy fast , so in few generations most of settlers will resemble old population , so autosomal DNA is least secure way to find out someone ancestry .
Yes Ydna and mth DNA showing only two lines of your ancestors , but when you compare population you will get many lines - and that is most certain way of investigating ancestry

Y-DNA/mtDNA is only useful if the area has a high diversity, if you have a population that are high with a specific lineage and the diversity is low, the answer is very obvious.

He twisting things all the time

Thanks for the useless contribution.

 

[Ivan]

Caucasus is realy one of most turbulent places in world - so there was a lot of wars . There was almoust permanent war betwen Georgians and Ossetians during they settling on Caucasus XIII - XV century .

I know it is a turbulent place, and still is, with lot of wars. I never meant there were no real wars, I meant there were no wars as you describe them like wars between haplogroup I carriers and haplogroup G carriers who raped each other until one raping society prevailed.

I said there were also times of peace and small tribes usually did not fought great wars all the time especially among each other.That were more skirmishes than wars. They fought real wars with big powers like Georgians, Russians, Khazars....

And also war raping as an act of sadism over the victim never produced much offspring. That is what I was saying.

Yes tribal laws forbid taking women out of Circassian tribe for example they were exlusivelly intermarriying in tribe. Again, here I meant that I and G were already incorporated in those tribes as an integral part as well as all the women dna and they then intermarried resulting a genetic drift with even more G over I.

When I mentioned Yugoslav intermarrying in times of peace that was just as an example that times of peace can lead to change of genetics in a more dramatic fashion than any war could. I never meant to compare this to tribal way of life.

If I and G were two separate groups who waged wars then today there would still be a secluded group of I that was never incorporated in the same society as G.

BTW, Thanks for the book.

 

[Bodin]

Goga, that study does not show any Autosomal DNA testing, I've been trying to tell you that there's no Ossetian sample to compare with in terms of Autosomal DNA, the study provided only shows the Y-DNA/mtDNA which is a tiny part of your DNA, I still think you're confused about this.

The study says this:

This is only mtDNA, which has nothing to do with Autosomal DNA (96% of your human DNA), watch the videos I posted, they'll help you understand what I'm trying to tell you:

Autosomal DNA
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/auto_dna.html

Y-DNA
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/y_chromo.html

mtDNA
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/mito_dna.html

X-Chromosome
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/x_chromo.html

Autosomal DNA determines which population is closest to each other, and since there's no Ossetian Autosomal DNA sample available, we can't determine how close they are to other Iranian populations, remember, they live in the Caucasus and do carry Caucasian paternal lineages too, so if I was a betting man I'd say they would be closest to other Caucasian groups in terms of Autosomal DNA since they live in the same area and probably have mixed for a while, but once again we have no evidence for that, so until some are tested, we don't know for sure.



I fail to see how one would make a connection between ancient groups and modern groups without ancient DNA study, as far as I know, there's no ancient DNA found among the Sarmatians/Alans, and whatever ancient DNA that is found in the steppe area, none of it was haplogroup G.

If there is no proves about autosomal similarity betwen Ossetians and Iranians , but there is conection in mthDNA , why are you trying to chalenge Iranian - Ossetian conection ( based on what )?
I also dont believe Alanians were mostly G , but some of nations that made union could be mostly G . And you persistently repeating which haplogroups are found in steppes - is it resonable to expect lot of Sarmathian DNA in steppes - I dont think so , because they mainly moved west , replaced by Huns and other Turkic tribes since IV century up to XVI century when last Turkic tribe ( Uzbeks ) moved in , and in XIII century Alania was totaly depopulated and destroyed by Mongolians , so why do you expect Sarmathian DNA to be significant in steppes ?You need to read more history books

 

[Bodin]

Of course they're gonna mix with other Caucasian groups, they live in the same region and some admixture will happen, but I'm telling you, their high number of haplogroup G2a is a genetic drift, that's usually the case when you have a very small population that has an extremely high number for one lineage.

Yes, but the topic is not about I2a1b, it's about Scyhian/Sarmatian DNA, so far there's no such thing as I2a1b in ancient Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, why are you even bringing it up? If you're talking about R1a1a, I would understand, but why the need to bring I2a1b? There's no logic in this.

The Andronovo culture was Proto-Indo-Iranian, they were partial ancestors of other Indo-Iranian populations (Which the Scythians are part of), and like the Scythians, they were steppe Kurgan nomads.

The Ossetians are Aryans because they inherited an Aryan culture and language, the Europeans are not Aryans because they don't have that culture or language, as for the names of the tribes you brought up, you're just turning things as you please, Ripuarian Franks does not mean Aryans, this is what it means:

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Ripuarian_Franks

And the Haddingjar were Germanic, I don't know where you come up with that word but Haria is not Arya, and I can't find anything online that connects Haddingjar with Aryans, so if you will, provide your sources please.

You're right, there's no I2a1b in ancient DNA so let's stop talking about it because it's a haplogroup that is not relevant to the subject.

Btw, I said I2a1b is Southeast European, I did not say it was Balkanic, though I did say that it entered Anatolia from the Balkans (A genetic wave from the Balkans), that does not mean it originated there.

No Sarmathian ancient DNA was found yet , so why would you exclude I2a1b from discusion , it was realy probable Sarmathian DNA by data WE DO HAVE .
Yes parts of Adronovo peoples were ancestor of Scyths , but not all of them , and there is no found C in Scythian graves
What do you consider Aryan , which culture and languague is it ?
Where by your oppinion did I2a1b originate , and when did it comed to Balkans , I already asked this , but you havent answered , this way it is realy dificult to understand what are you claiming .
I to believe I2a1b entered Anatolia from Balkans after XIV century , but not the Kurdistan

 

[Bodin]

I know it is a turbulent place, and still is, with lot of wars. I never meant there were no real wars, I meant there were no wars as you describe them like wars between haplogroup I carriers and haplogroup G carriers who raped each other until one raping society prevailed.

I said there were also times of peace and small tribes usually did not fought great wars all the time especially among each other.That were more skirmishes than wars. They fought real wars with big powers like Georgians, Russians, Khazars....

And also war raping as an act of sadism over the victim never produced much offspring. That is what I was saying.

Yes tribal laws forbid taking women out of Circassian tribe for example they were exlusivelly intermarriying in tribe. Again, here I meant that I and G were already incorporated in those tribes as an integral part as well as all the women dna and they then intermarried resulting a genetic drift with even more G over I.

When I mentioned Yugoslav intermarrying in times of peace that was just as an example that times of peace can lead to change of genetics in a more dramatic fashion than any war could. I never meant to compare this to tribal way of life.

If I and G were two separate groups who waged wars then today there would still be a secluded group of I that was never incorporated in the same society as G.

BTW, Thanks for the book.

You are welcomed
We havent understood each other , I didnt claim I and G make war against eachother , but incoming Alans in XIII century with most of I2a1b ( and maybe R1a and Q from mix with Huns) and Caucasians natives with most of G haplogroup . Again I never said G haplogroup is rapist haplogroup . sorry if I ( unwillingly) offended you . Thanks for answer.

 

[Bodin]

Y-DNA/mtDNA is only useful if the area has a high diversity, if you have a population that are high with a specific lineage and the diversity is low, the answer is very obvious.



Thanks for the useless contribution.

You are welcomed to
Autosomal DNA is less certain way to find somebody ancestry than Y and mth DNA and that is the fact

 

[Bodin]

Yes, it's called Autosomal DNA, thank you for proving my point.

Not only Autosomal DNA but also mthDNA ( mor important ) and other Ydna haplogroups , you have to look all of this factors , not only one

 

[Bodin]

R1a-related lineages occur less frequently here among eastern Slavs, a main reason for the disconnect between the Eastern European plain and the Caucasus. There does, however, appear to be good diversity here, with the presence of R1a*, R1a1-M198*, Note again how the Iranic Ossetians (both North and South) have almost no R1a1 compared to both their NW Caucasian and S Caucasian neighbors, again, suggesting that this may not have been an important Alan or steppe Iranian lineage, at least during the late antique time horizon. The occurrence of R1a1f-M458 may represent Slavic influence in the NW Caucasus.

 

[razor]

Yes it is .Alanliao is Chinese word and mean Land of steppes - and thats how Alans get they name , that is only explanation I have heird of , now i would like to hier your version of origins of name Alani .

Here's a prime source for you: the Hou Hanshu Cf. the footnote to their "Alan" text: http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/hhshu/notes19.html

It's the previous political formation, Yancai or Yentsai (sometimes confused with the "Antes") which bore the name of "great steppe". I have already stated the meaning of "Alani". It's not "my version", it's standard linguistics. "Alan" is simply the lambdacized pronunciation of "Aryan". Join a good IE linguistic discussion group like cybalist@yahoogroups/com. They have many fine linguists there.

 

[Cobol19]

No Sarmathian ancient DNA was found yet , so why would you exclude I2a1b from discusion , it was realy probable Sarmathian DNA by data WE DO HAVE .

We don't have any I2a1b data on ancient Scythians/Sarmatians, enough with this.

Yes parts of Adronovo peoples were ancestor of Scyths , but not all of them , and there is no found C in Scythian graves

It does not matter much really, it was only one sample that carried haplogroup C anyways, but it's funny how you're trying to downplay a lineage that was actually found in ancient Kurgan remains, yet you make a big deal with I2a1b when it hasn't even been found.

The message is very clear, I2a1b is your Y-DNA so you're pushing for it.

What do you consider Aryan , which culture and languague is it ?

I believe Aryan culture started in South-Central Asia, that's where the earliest Indo-Iranian religions and traditions come to life, think of the earliest Vedic Aryans and the early Zoroastrianism traditions.

Where by your oppinion did I2a1b originate , and when did it comed to Balkans , I already asked this , but you havent answered , this way it is realy dificult to understand what are you claiming .
I to believe I2a1b entered Anatolia from Balkans after XIV century , but not the Kurdistan

I already said it a million times, I believe it originated in Southeast Europe, and it entered the Middle East from the Balkans, is that what happened for sure? I don't know, but it's my opinion and it makes perfect sense to me.

Frankly, I2a1b is not the only I* lineage in the Middle East, I2c and I1 also exist.

Ohh and one more thing, haplogroup I2a1 was actually found in a Neolithic site in France that dates back to 5000 years ago:

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/05/24/1100723108.short

Here's the data:

http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2011/05/25/1100723108.DCSupplemental/pnas.201100723SI.pdf

 

[razor]

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/05/24/1100723108.short[/url]

Here's the data:

http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2011/05/25/1100723108.DCSupplemental/pnas.201100723SI.pdf

Too bad they couldn't be more specific. According to the genetic mathematician Ken Nortvedt, I2a1 is pretty old and his suggested spread map indicates some of it followed the "close to the mediterranean" pathway surmised for Neolithic colonization towards the West. Reps could have wound up in that France site. On the other hand, he has computerized, on the basis of very precise analysis of the elements of I2a1b1 (the older I2a2a) that this subclade, which currently dominates I2 in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, arose not sooner than 2,800 years ago somewhere north of the Danube. He thinks it spread southward with the Slavic explosion of the 1rst millennium AD. But he admits the possibility of other scenarios. As to the Sarmatians, I think Bodin is fascinated by the evidence of Constantine Porphyrogenitus associated to snippets from Pliny, which has nothing to do with DNA of course, and which must be treated with much caution in any case.

 

[Cobol19]

Too bad they couldn't be more specific. According to the genetic mathematician Ken Nortvedt, I2a1 is pretty old and his suggested spread map indicates some of it followed the "close to the mediterranean" pathway surmised for Neolithic colonization towards the West. Reps could have wound up in that France site. On the other hand, he has computerized, on the basis of very precise analysis of the elements of I2a1b1 (the older I2a2a) that this subclade, which currently dominates I2 in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, arose not sooner than 2,800 years ago somewhere north of the Danube. He thinks it spread southward with the Slavic explosion of the 1rst millennium AD. But he admits the possibility of other scenarios. As to the Sarmatians, I think Bodin is fascinated by the evidence of Constantine Porphyrogenitus associated to snippets from Pliny, which has nothing to do with DNA of course, and which must be treated with much caution in any case.

I'm just showing that the father of I2a1b has been found further west in a European Neolithic site, and if I2a1b is only 2800 years old (Not sure how that date comes up), I don't see how anyone can connect it to the Medes when they're clearly older than that.

If he was to say the Iranians that mixed with the local I2a1b Southeast Europeans became the Sarmatian folks all together, it would be a more plausible scenario than making up wild theories about Medes carrying such a young lineage or trying to connect it with tribes living in South-Central Asia.