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Thread: Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

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    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Scythians were in my opinion R1b and closely related to Celts....
    myth of origin of Scotish people written down in Declaration of Arbroath says they come from Greater Scythia

    It journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage peoples, but nowhere could it be subdued by any people, however barbarous. Thence it came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to its home in the west where it still lives today.
    http://webarchive.nrscotland.gov.uk/...onArbroath.pdf

    Greater Scythia is parts of Balkan.. there in Albania we find tribe name Chelidones (Greek Χελιδόνες) see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...English%29.svg,
    in Spain we find tribal name Caladuni (next to Seurbi and Helleni see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Peninsula.png) and in Scotland we find tribal name Caledones or Caledonii; Greek: Καληδώνες, Kalēdōnes) and alternative name for Scotish people is Scottish Gaelic: Albannaich while Scotland is Alba.

    thus we have claims of Declaration of Arborath supported by tribal names Chelidones-Caladuni- Caledonii and Albania -Albannaich link
    Scotish people that are proud to origin from Greater Scythia (extension of Scythia) are R1b so Scythians are probably also R1b

    Scythians attacked Cimmerians in 8th century BC causing them to move from area north of Black sea to west becomming spread in whole east Europe.. Cimmerians were in my opinion I2a Din..they merged with R1a Thracians giving Thraco-Cimmerians with archeological findoings of their culture being spead all the way to Denmark and north Italy..this spread far away from Thrace means that name Thracian in wider sense included Pannonians and Veneti..

    Sarmatians subjugated Scythians... Sarmatians were in my opinion G2a...reason to claim this is that Osetians are thought to be direct offspring of Alani the main Sarmatian tribe and they are speaking iranic language and are G2a.. Being iranian some Sarmatian tribes might have been R1a but not European clades like M458 and M558..

    Slavic people and language come mainly from Veneti as Jordanes clearly stated it saying that Antes and Slavi are two biggest tribes left over from numerous race of Veneti... only part of Slavic people used Slavi as self name..like today only Slovaks and Slovenians do...they were Veneti..their halpogroups are R1a and they have I2a din admixture of Cimmerians...
    Thracians (and related Dacians) were in my opinion very similar to Veneti in both genetics, language and culture.. so they were easily assimilated by Slavic people in 6th century ...

    some Veneti/Pannonian tribes lived on Balkan north of Illyrians long time before Slavic arrival in 6th century.. Pannonians were in my opinion also among numerous Veneti race.. and in wider sense so were Dacians and Thracians..
    Russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs and among them Serbs, white Croats and Carantanians (Slovene) living around Danube (In nowadays Bulgaria, Serbia and Hungary) prior to Vlachs (roman empire) invasion...after which they moved to Vistula river in Poland ...so south Slavs in 6th century move back to their previous settlement place....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Many Europeans in Central and Northeast Europe claim their ancestry. But those people were Euroasian and not entirely European and they spoke Iranic (Aryan) languages. But people in Europe don't speak Aryan languages.
    I know nothing about these peoples, but somehow they got my attention and I got interested in these people, because many folks link them to the ancient West Asian Aryan Medes (Mitanni).
    I'm a West ASIAN Kurd and Kurds in general claim their ancestry to the West ASIAN Iranic Medes. In Kurdistan there're many archaeological traces left of these Aryan folks and of their Zoroastrian and other Aryan religions. So I truly believe that Aryan ancestors of the Kurds were West Asian too.
    If it is true that Scythians/Sarmatians were related to the Medes, then it's possible that these Scythians/Sarmatians were and admixture of North EUROPEAN and West ASIAN DNA, it is also possble that these folks had mostly West Asian DNA. Because I believe that the proto-Aryans came from West Asian/South Caucasus.
    So I think that these Scythians/Sarmatians that live in North Caucasus were:
    mostly R1a, I2a, J2a. With some Caucasian G2a, R1b, R2a, J1 & T and East European Q & N elements, but not so much.
    What are your thoughts about these folks?
    brothers scythians from turkic land of central asia. we can clearly see they life style come from common ancestor also genetic(r1a have most on the altai turks on the world, and i think they come from scythians.) i think they are tribe of the central asian turkic/hunnic/mongol/east and west iranian peoples. and i dont think they speak one common language. this area make always tribal federation empire like hunnic. so why today some peoples say clearly they are iranic or europeans say we are scythians and turks not so absurd. finally i think they are come from mostly r1a and ancestor of turks sogdian and east iranian.
    scythians are ancestor of west iranian and turkic common peoples. and i think they dont have a common one language.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I believe that the Scythian/Indo Iranic peoples did contribute to certain Slavic populations. Some Slavic words, like Bog(God) are said to be loanwords from Iranian languages. There is also high levels of similarity between Slavic/Baltic languages and Sanskrit, which is an Indo European tongue.

    Polish nobility always claimed descent from the Sarmatians. Recent studies have shown that Polish coats of arms were different than western heraldry, and bears imagery and cult symbols found among Scythian/Alanic peoples.

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    That’s very interesting. My only very close match is a prominent member of the Lubomirski noble family from Poland. We’re J2b2 L283, specifically PH1602. I’m wondering if that could have come from Sarmatia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PabijanBrzeski View Post
    Recent studies have shown that Polish coats of arms were different than western heraldry, and bears imagery and cult symbols found among Scythian/Alanic peoples.
    That is very intersting. Could you pls. give us some links.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PabijanBrzeski View Post
    I believe that the Scythian/Indo Iranic peoples did contribute to certain Slavic populations. Some Slavic words, like Bog(God) are said to be loanwords from Iranian languages. There is also high levels of similarity between Slavic/Baltic languages and Sanskrit, which is an Indo European tongue.

    Polish nobility always claimed descent from the Sarmatians. Recent studies have shown that Polish coats of arms were different than western heraldry, and bears imagery and cult symbols found among Scythian/Alanic peoples.
    For now we do not have migration of R1a peoples from Iran, India or that direction to Europe except Scythian R1a-Z93 but they come later.

    The history of the Slavic languages stretches over 3,000 years, from the point at which the ancestral Proto-Balto-Slavic language broke up (c. 1500 BC) into the modern-day Slavic languages which are today natively spoken in Eastern, Central and Southeastern Europe as well as parts of North Asia and Central Asia.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...avic_languages


    Vedic Sanskrit and tracing its linguistic ancestry back to Proto-Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-European.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit

    Migration of R1a peoples.

    https://cache.eupedia.com/images/con...ration_map.jpg

    This for now means that Indo-European language could only come from the Russian steppes to India, Iran and that area. This is if we look at Slavic language and its similarity to Sanskrit.

    For nearly 2,000 years, Sanskrit was the language of a cultural order that exerted influence across South Asia, Inner Asia, Southeast Asia,
    As far as I can see, migration of R1b people from that direction exist but they come to Europe before Sanskrit being mentioned and Slavs were probably speaking Slavic at that time. So it's my opinion that Sanskrit comes from the Russian steppes to India and that area.
    Which would mean that Slavic language is older than Sanskrit and that same language is mix between old Slavic language and languages in that area.

    https://cache.eupedia.com/images/con...ration-map.jpg


    Indo-European migration is also seen here, everything goes from Yamnaya culture

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:I...migrations.gif

    The Yamna people or Yamnaya culture(traditionally known as the Pit Grave culture or Ochre Grave culture) was a late Copper Age to early Bronze Ageculture of the region between the Southern Bug, Dniester and Ural rivers (the Pontic steppe), dating to 3300–2600 BC.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture

    3300–2600 BC and Yamnaya culture is time before Sanskrit is mentioned and probably in that area of Yamnaya culture they speaks some old archaic Slavic language. In migration map of haplogroup R1a it can be seen that Indo-Aryans come to India and that area 1700 BC with mutation L657 and probably that tribe brings Slavic words to Sanskirt.


    As far as the influence of Scythians is concerned, I think that they brought some old Slavic word to Europe which some Slavs had previously brought to India, Iran and Sanskirt.



    The Scythians first appeared in the historical record in the 8th century BC.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians

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    Quote Originally Posted by howyesno View Post
    Scythians were in my opinion R1b and closely related to Celts....
    myth of origin of Scotish people written down in Declaration of Arbroath says they come from Greater Scythia


    http://webarchive.nrscotland.gov.uk/...onArbroath.pdf

    Greater Scythia is parts of Balkan.. there in Albania we find tribe name Chelidones (Greek Χελιδόνες) see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...English%29.svg,
    in Spain we find tribal name Caladuni (next to Seurbi and Helleni see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Peninsula.png) and in Scotland we find tribal name Caledones or Caledonii; Greek: Καληδώνες, Kalēdōnes) and alternative name for Scotish people is Scottish Gaelic: Albannaich while Scotland is Alba.

    thus we have claims of Declaration of Arborath supported by tribal names Chelidones-Caladuni- Caledonii and Albania -Albannaich link
    Scotish people that are proud to origin from Greater Scythia (extension of Scythia) are R1b so Scythians are probably also R1b

    Scythians attacked Cimmerians in 8th century BC causing them to move from area north of Black sea to west becomming spread in whole east Europe.. Cimmerians were in my opinion I2a Din..they merged with R1a Thracians giving Thraco-Cimmerians with archeological findoings of their culture being spead all the way to Denmark and north Italy..this spread far away from Thrace means that name Thracian in wider sense included Pannonians and Veneti..

    Sarmatians subjugated Scythians... Sarmatians were in my opinion G2a...reason to claim this is that Osetians are thought to be direct offspring of Alani the main Sarmatian tribe and they are speaking iranic language and are G2a.. Being iranian some Sarmatian tribes might have been R1a but not European clades like M458 and M558..

    Slavic people and language come mainly from Veneti as Jordanes clearly stated it saying that Antes and Slavi are two biggest tribes left over from numerous race of Veneti... only part of Slavic people used Slavi as self name..like today only Slovaks and Slovenians do...they were Veneti..their halpogroups are R1a and they have I2a din admixture of Cimmerians...
    Thracians (and related Dacians) were in my opinion very similar to Veneti in both genetics, language and culture.. so they were easily assimilated by Slavic people in 6th century ...

    some Veneti/Pannonian tribes lived on Balkan north of Illyrians long time before Slavic arrival in 6th century.. Pannonians were in my opinion also among numerous Veneti race.. and in wider sense so were Dacians and Thracians..
    Russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs and among them Serbs, white Croats and Carantanians (Slovene) living around Danube (In nowadays Bulgaria, Serbia and Hungary) prior to Vlachs (roman empire) invasion...after which they moved to Vistula river in Poland ...so south Slavs in 6th century move back to their previous settlement place....
    (Postquam vero Theodosius amator pacis generisque Gothorum rebus excessit humanis coeperuntque eius filii utramque rem publicam luxuriose viventes adnihilare auxiliariisque suis, id est Gothis, consueta dona subtrahere, mox Gothis fastidium eorum increvit, verentesque, ne longa pace eorum resolveretur fortitudo, ordinato super se rege Halarico, cui erat post Amalos secunda nobilitas Balthorumque ex genere origo mirifica, qui dudum ob audacia virtutis Baltha, id est audax, nomen inter suos acceperat. Mox ergo antefatus Halaricus creatus est rex, cum suis deliberans suasit eos suo labore quaerere regna quam alienis per otium subiacere, et sumpto exercitu per Pannonias Stilicone et Aureliano consulibus et per Sirmium dextroque latere quasi viris vacuam intravit Italiam nulloque penitus obsistente ad pontem applicavit Candidiani, qui tertio miliario ab urbe aberat regia Ravennate. Quae urbs inter paludes et pelago interque Padi fluenta unius tantum patet accessu, cuius dudum possessores, ut tradunt maiores, ainetoi,* id est laudabiles, dicebantur.)


    Thus, Ravenna is described in Getica as founded by a people called Ainetoi – the name of those people, it is said, meant the “brave ones”. Of course, Ravenna is also very close to Venezia .


    So, in the simplest of terms it would seem that the Goths’ rampage resulted in the conquest of the Veneti on the Baltic and, possibly drove, at least some of them, the newly anointed “Antes” and “Slavs” south. This seems to be confirmed by the fact that, in subsequent passages about the Goths and in the works of Procopius, the Veneti are no longer discussed (except perhaps indirectly via the name of Vinitharius). Instead, the focus is on the Byzantine borders (not northern Scythia) and, consequently, on the Antes and the Slavs – not the Veneti.

    But what about the Sporoi? That name seems to suggest a “multitude” or “largeness” as per modern Slavic language. It should not take a Mensa member to note that Jordanes observes on more than one occasion (on two in fact!) that the Veneti were a “populous race” (Getica 5) that was “strong in numbers” (Getica 23). This would seem to connect the Sporoi with the Veneti.[3] Further, something that has not been noted is the similarity of the name s-Poroi to the word Poruse or, Prussians. The “s” or “z” in most Slavic languages means “from”. The Prussians were known to the Roman cartographers (see Ptolemy) as either being part of or living next to the Veneti.


    The Baltic Veneti/Venedi became the Warmians of Old Prussia eventually to be eliminated in the 13th century by the teutons..............they have nothing to do with Pannonians
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by howyesno View Post
    Scythians were in my opinion R1b and closely related to Celts....
    myth of origin of Scotish people written down in Declaration of Arbroath says they come from Greater Scythia


    http://webarchive.nrscotland.gov.uk/...onArbroath.pdf

    Greater Scythia is parts of Balkan.. there in Albania we find tribe name Chelidones (Greek Χελιδόνες) see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...English%29.svg,
    in Spain we find tribal name Caladuni (next to Seurbi and Helleni see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Peninsula.png) and in Scotland we find tribal name Caledones or Caledonii; Greek: Καληδώνες, Kalēdōnes) and alternative name for Scotish people is Scottish Gaelic: Albannaich while Scotland is Alba.

    thus we have claims of Declaration of Arborath supported by tribal names Chelidones-Caladuni- Caledonii and Albania -Albannaich link
    Scotish people that are proud to origin from Greater Scythia (extension of Scythia) are R1b so Scythians are probably also R1b

    Scythians attacked Cimmerians in 8th century BC causing them to move from area north of Black sea to west becomming spread in whole east Europe.. Cimmerians were in my opinion I2a Din..they merged with R1a Thracians giving Thraco-Cimmerians with archeological findoings of their culture being spead all the way to Denmark and north Italy..this spread far away from Thrace means that name Thracian in wider sense included Pannonians and Veneti..

    Sarmatians subjugated Scythians... Sarmatians were in my opinion G2a...reason to claim this is that Osetians are thought to be direct offspring of Alani the main Sarmatian tribe and they are speaking iranic language and are G2a.. Being iranian some Sarmatian tribes might have been R1a but not European clades like M458 and M558..

    Slavic people and language come mainly from Veneti as Jordanes clearly stated it saying that Antes and Slavi are two biggest tribes left over from numerous race of Veneti... only part of Slavic people used Slavi as self name..like today only Slovaks and Slovenians do...they were Veneti..their halpogroups are R1a and they have I2a din admixture of Cimmerians...
    Thracians (and related Dacians) were in my opinion very similar to Veneti in both genetics, language and culture.. so they were easily assimilated by Slavic people in 6th century ...

    some Veneti/Pannonian tribes lived on Balkan north of Illyrians long time before Slavic arrival in 6th century.. Pannonians were in my opinion also among numerous Veneti race.. and in wider sense so were Dacians and Thracians..
    Russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs and among them Serbs, white Croats and Carantanians (Slovene) living around Danube (In nowadays Bulgaria, Serbia and Hungary) prior to Vlachs (roman empire) invasion...after which they moved to Vistula river in Poland ...so south Slavs in 6th century move back to their previous settlement place....
    Opinions don’t matter in the face of facts. Scythian remains this far have been R1a-Z93, J1, G, N.

    I2a1b-Din in south Slavs is extremely young and remains discovered were in a medieval Slav. Nothing to do wit Cimmerians which were probably connected to I2 found in Kavkaz that is different from I2a1b Din.

    Sarmatians were the result of mixing between scythians and other peoples. Whilst G2a is almost a definite, we can’t be sure what other lines they possessed.

    The only ancient Thracian remains discovered so far are R-a-Z93 and I2a2a(Balkanic) which was found in Pomaks and Greeks. The Thracian R1a has not been discovered in living peoples. They did not have I2a1b-Din found in south Slavs.

    I am not privy to any ancient remains discovered if Dacians but it’s not impossible to assume they may have had I2a1b being shifted further north among other lines like Z280 they would have surely existed in their northern kin the Getae.

    Illyrian remains were already discovered in Bronze Age Dalmatia and they were J2b2 L283. Found predominantly in Albanians but also in some Southern Slavs as well. Including Vlachs. Older lineages like V13 and R1b were also discovered and likely participated in the ethnogenesis of both Illyrians and Dardanians.

    Additionally M458 is yet to have any ancient DNA discovered from 500AD or earlier. We can’t say for certain who it moved with based on modern distribution alone. However, M458 is rather uncommon outside of Germans, Poles. In the Balkans it’s mainly common in Bulgarians and Romanians. Even Greeks have more of it compared to other South Slavs.

    Given that M458 reaches upwards of 22 percent in Turkic tribes like Nogays and Kipchaks and Kavkaz in the north and south such as Circassians, it’s possible it moved with Pannonian Avars and Volga Bulgars.

    They have more M458 than the entire Balkans combined. Only in Bulgaria does it reach 10 percent. Given the geographical sphere of Pannonian Avars and Volgar Bulgars in Poland and Bulgaria, it makes sense that some clades of M458 were carried by them.

    They already had adopted Slavic as a lingua Franca before entering the Balkans, so it’s not out of reason that at the collapse of their power structure they largely absorbed into Slavic ethnos. Z280/I2a1b-Din are the strongest and most characteristic of the Slavic migration.

    They may well be connected to Getae or in small part to late Iron Age Dacians given over lap of modern Slavic and Baltic territories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    That’s very interesting. My only very close match is a prominent member of the Lubomirski noble family from Poland. We’re J2b2 L283, specifically PH1602. I’m wondering if that could have come from Sarmatia.
    While your clade is not common in Albanians J2b2 L283 is. Perhaps an assimilated Illyrian that went with the Roman auxiliary to Central Europe. Don’t see how it’s Sarmatian. Even though we don’t have their remains they were similar to Scythian and those remains were mostly R1a-Z93, J1, G and N for east Scythian

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Opinions don’t matter in the face of facts. Scythian remains this far have been R1a-Z93, J1, G, N.
    I2a1b-Din in south Slavs is extremely young and remains discovered were in a medieval Slav. Nothing to do wit Cimmerians which were probably connected to I2 found in Kavkaz that is different from I2a1b Din.
    Sarmatians were the result of mixing between scythians and other peoples. Whilst G2a is almost a definite, we can’t be sure what other lines they possessed.
    The only ancient Thracian remains discovered so far are R-a-Z93 and I2a2a(Balkanic) which was found in Pomaks and Greeks. The Thracian R1a has not been discovered in living peoples. They did not have I2a1b-Din found in south Slavs.
    I am not privy to any ancient remains discovered if Dacians but it’s not impossible to assume they may have had I2a1b being shifted further north among other lines like Z280 they would have surely existed in their northern kin the Getae.
    Illyrian remains were already discovered in Bronze Age Dalmatia and they were J2b2 L283. Found predominantly in Albanians but also in some Southern Slavs as well. Including Vlachs. Older lineages like V13 and R1b were also discovered and likely participated in the ethnogenesis of both Illyrians and Dardanians.
    Additionally M458 is yet to have any ancient DNA discovered from 500AD or earlier. We can’t say for certain who it moved with based on modern distribution alone. However, M458 is rather uncommon outside of Germans, Poles. In the Balkans it’s mainly common in Bulgarians and Romanians. Even Greeks have more of it compared to other South Slavs.
    Given that M458 reaches upwards of 22 percent in Turkic tribes like Nogays and Kipchaks and Kavkaz in the north and south such as Circassians, it’s possible it moved with Pannonian Avars and Volga Bulgars.
    They have more M458 than the entire Balkans combined. Only in Bulgaria does it reach 10 percent. Given the geographical sphere of Pannonian Avars and Volgar Bulgars in Poland and Bulgaria, it makes sense that some clades of M458 were carried by them.
    They already had adopted Slavic as a lingua Franca before entering the Balkans, so it’s not out of reason that at the collapse of their power structure they largely absorbed into Slavic ethnos. Z280/I2a1b-Din are the strongest and most characteristic of the Slavic migration.
    They may well be connected to Getae or in small part to late Iron Age Dacians given over lap of modern Slavic and Baltic territories.
    thracian samples
    Sample P192-1 was found at the site of a pit sanctuary near Svilengrad, Bulgaria, excavated between 2004 and 2006. The pits are associated with the Thracian culture and date to the Early Iron Age (800–500 BC) based on pottery found in the pits. A total of 67 ritual pits, including 16 pits containing human skeletons or parts of skeletons, were explored during the excavations. An upper wisdom tooth from an adult male was used for DNA analysis......belonged to haplogroup E1b1b1a1b-Z1919........mtdna U3b

    Sample T2G2 was found in a Thracian tumulus (burial mound) near the village of Stambolovo, Bulgaria. Two small tumuli dating to the Early Iron Age (850–700 BC) were excavated in 2008. A canine tooth from an inhumation burial of a child (c.12 years old) inside a dolium was used for DNA analysis......belonged to R1b-Z2103.
    Sample V2 was found in a flat cemetery dating to the Late Bronze Age (1500–1100 BC) near the village of Vratitsa, Bulgaria. Nine inhumation burials were excavated between 2003 and 2004. A molar from a juvenile male (age 16–17) was used for DNA analysis.
    Sample K8 was found in the Yakimova Mogila Tumulus, which dates to the Iron Age (450–400 BC), near Krushare, Bulgaria. An aristocratic inhumation burial containing rich grave goods was excavated in 2008. A molar from one individual, probably male, was used for DNA analysis......belonged to J2-Z7402

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    I haven't post in a few years. I was under impression, due to suggestions from other members of this forum, that my YDNA was Sarmatian, because it is R-Z93, since then I've tested Big Y at FTDNA and I am R-Z93>YP5585>YP5578>BY30053>Y28816>YP5905>YP27595.

    Let's disregard all after YP5578, as I know from research and YFULL when and even who was the original "bearer of that SNP.

    I want to concentrate on YP5585 and YP5578.

    YP5578 is unique. It virtually stands alone as to origin and time of appearance, being in the north of England (Northumbria at the time) and about the time of the returning crusaders. It also appears at the time when English castles were being rebuilt from mud, wattle and timber affairs on motte and baileys to stone castles and English steel was upgraded from the crude steel the crusaders used to the high quality of Damascus steel. And the area in which the DNA was originally centered is also a rich iron ore bearing area called Cleveland (Clifflands) in Yorkshire.

    So far there are 20 men, most who have the same surname or a variation, who have tested YP5578, all have an ancestral origin in the north of England (Dane and Angle Northumbria, modern Yorkshire).

    Now the kicker. There is also an Indian (subcontinent) whose DNA is YP5585. We know that the Scythians swept into the Indus Valley, the so called Aryan Invasion, and left their DNA in what is now the Brahim class, and of course converts to Islam especially in Pakistan, but I do not have an inkling as to their subclades, and subclades are important. R-Z93 is too broad, covers too much territory, too many peoples.

    I have arrived at a tentative conclusion that my first English ancestor was actually a Christian Dhimmi, perhaps an expert in forging Damascus steel (the late 13th, 14th and 15th century spelling of the name was Ferror, a ferror is a maker of iron, as opposed to a smith who works iron.

    He was a descendant of an Indian, who was taken captive during the Arab conquest of the Indus Valley in the 8th Century, he survived the trek over the mountains named for them, Hindu Slaughter or Hindu Kush, and was sold in a slave market, perhaps in Damascus.

    As a kufr, unbeliever or infidel, and not a Peoples of the Book (Christian or Jew) he would have been given a choice to say the Shahada or die, however he was also a valuable commodity and one does not waste their property or investment, so Hindu slaves, during the reign of the Umayyad caliphate which considered Islam to be an Arab only religion, allowed or persuaded their Hindu and pagan slaves to Christianity. Conversion to Judaism required instruction and cooperation of Rabbi's, not forthcoming. Christianity required only baptism by a priest.

    Life as a Christian under Islam meant living as a second class citizen and paying a poll tax (jizzyah).

    Thus when the Crusaders appeared and marveled at the technology and techniques of the old Greco Persian empire as inherited by the Arabs, they were like kids in a candy shop. Enamored of their masons and forgers of steel, they wasted little time in convincing these dhimmi's to return with them to England, and the skilled dhimmi's, saw relief from paying jizzyah and living as second class citizen and eagerly boarded crusader ships for transport to Europe and England.

    The transformation of Europe and England and it's climb out of the dark ages actually started with the Crusades, when the encountered the philosophy, science, technology and techniques of the old Greco Roman Persian empire as brought together and synthesized by the Arabs.

    The Arabs who themselves were amazed and enthralled by the philosophy, technology, skill, medicine of the Greeks, Romans and Persians who they conquered and very much like the Christians later, were like kids in a candy shop, absorbing everything new that they found, and taking it one step further by amalgamating all, improving and enhancing such as the mathematics of al Jabr which bears his name today in albebra.

    Too bad it has gone backwards in the modern era, but the same retrograde, conservative tendency is apparent in Christianity and Judaism as so called fundamentalism or fear or discomfort with modernity and progress is on the uptick. But I wander afield as I always do.

    Point is that a "son" of R-Z93 apparently landed in England between 1000 and 800 ybp, by the circuitous route of India and Damascus. At least that is the idea for now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    thracian samples
    Sample P192-1 was found at the site of a pit sanctuary near Svilengrad, Bulgaria, excavated between 2004 and 2006. The pits are associated with the Thracian culture and date to the Early Iron Age (800–500 BC) based on pottery found in the pits. A total of 67 ritual pits, including 16 pits containing human skeletons or parts of skeletons, were explored during the excavations. An upper wisdom tooth from an adult male was used for DNA analysis......belonged to haplogroup E1b1b1a1b-Z1919........mtdna U3b

    Sample T2G2 was found in a Thracian tumulus (burial mound) near the village of Stambolovo, Bulgaria. Two small tumuli dating to the Early Iron Age (850–700 BC) were excavated in 2008. A canine tooth from an inhumation burial of a child (c.12 years old) inside a dolium was used for DNA analysis......belonged to R1b-Z2103.
    Sample V2 was found in a flat cemetery dating to the Late Bronze Age (1500–1100 BC) near the village of Vratitsa, Bulgaria. Nine inhumation burials were excavated between 2003 and 2004. A molar from a juvenile male (age 16–17) was used for DNA analysis.
    Sample K8 was found in the Yakimova Mogila Tumulus, which dates to the Iron Age (450–400 BC), near Krushare, Bulgaria. An aristocratic inhumation burial containing rich grave goods was excavated in 2008. A molar from one individual, probably male, was used for DNA analysis......belonged to J2-Z7402
    And your point being? This doesn't negate what I said. There was also a R1a-Z93 sample discovered in a Thracian from Bulgaria. Additionally, the 2 Cimmmerians tested in a recent paper were Q and R1b-Z2103(if I am not mistaken). Which furthers my point that Cimmerians were not I2a1b-Din.

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