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Thread: Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    You are right Goga. However, note there is a problem because K=12 also says West Asian is closer to Southwest Asian than the Mediterranean is. The tree you are using belongs to K=10, where it's TRUE that Southern European was closer to Southwest Asian, but with the new interpretation of Southern Europe (Mediterranean), this has changed.

    What you say it makes sense. Just wanted to point there's some discrepancy between both runs. West asian here is 0.054 from Southwest Asian, while the Mediterranean is 0.057...a bit far in comparison.
    Yes. Maybe it's true. I do believe this is due big parts of the Southwest Asia component are from West Asia.
    Southwest Asian components are J1, E and maybe T. J1 is from IJ . And the Archaic haplogorup IJ is from West Asia. From IJ came I1, I2, J1 and J2. Hg. J1 connects Southwest Asia and West Asia.

    However the closest component to West Asia is West Europe. The distance between Soutwest Asian and West Asia is 0.054, while the distance between West Asian and West European is only 0.048. West Europeans are the closest folks to West Asia.

    According to this the closest components to Mediterranean are East European and West Asian, both 0.056! West Asian is closer to Mediterranean than West European is (0.058).

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    Yes, that's a good point. I think Dienekes' always tries to diferentiate the components as much as possible, and checking the distances it's always clear wich components refer to Europe, the near east, Asia, etc. But the names can cause confusion, for this reason I don't like the Mediterranean one. If the component must keep united, I think Paleolithic European was a better name to make the interpretation easier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Yes, that's a good point. I think Dienekes' always tries to diferentiate the componennts as much as possible, and checking the distances it's always clear wich componenets refer to Europe, the near east, Asia, etc. But the names can cause confusion, for this reason I don't like the Mediterranean one. If the component must keep united, I think Paleolithic European was a better name to make the interpretation easier.
    I do agree with you. It's just a name. But Southwest Asian and Mediterranean components share hg. E together. Most Arabs (Semites) or Arabic speakers are dominant : Semitic J1 and E ! Hg. E is both a Mediterranean and Soutwest Asian haplogroup, but it's origin is somewhere in Africa!

    Origin of IJ is in West Asia
    Origin of R is in Central Asian or maybe even West Asia too
    Origin of E is in Afria

    Btw. I think that hg. E has nothing to do with the Scythians / ancient Aryans (Iranic folks). But maybe I'm wrong.

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    First of all, it is out of question that Sarmartians-Scythians were from baltic area or belonged mainly to North European component. Their original homeland was between the Caspian and Aral See(Andronovo). This Region is high in West Asian and strong North European too. North East European peaks up in the baltic and has expanded later more south. It is delusional to believe that Baltic People or the "baltic Gene" has in anyway contact to the Scythians or Sarmatians. We only know about Scythians that they had much R1a* but don´t know this about Sarmatians. Even if Sarmatians are partly descend of Scythians still they were other People. Maybe the Sarmatians were more G than R1a*. Who knows?
    The domination of what is today Ukraine was based on some Warriors which moved from East and controlled the former Cimmerian Regions. We can assume that todays Ukrainians and some South Russians have absorbed Scythian and Sarmatians but at the same time we know that during the Soviet time, many Slavs from further North were settled in Ukraine. Connecting Slavs to Scythians just because of much R1a* among them is as logical as saying the Italic tribes are up to 50% descend of Germanic tribes because of the high R1b* found among them. Both Iranic as well Slavic people belong to the Satem group of Indo Europeans and it is understandable that they share more similarities as to other Indo Europeans. However similarities don´t mean they were the same.

    About the Scythian, Sarmatian-Alan presence in West Asia, well the first mentioning of Scythians in history was indeed from West Asia by Assyrians who called them "Ishkuza" They were present in Urartu, Mannea even before any mentioning of them in North. Interestingly a Greek historian wrote (I don´t know his name anymore) The Scythians moved over the Aras See into the Steppes further North.
    Last edited by Alan; 06-09-11 at 05:07.

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    Georgians and Armenians have 4.5 - 6% of E, and Kurds 7-11%. Iran has also 4.5%.

    The numbers are quite low, lower than Italy for example (11%). Spain is in the Middle with 7%, and Portugal on the top with 14%.

    Haplogroup E is quite widespread, it has something to do in lots of populations. Just see the Eupedia spreadsheet. Actually the highest European frequencies can be found all around the Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Georgians and Armenians have 4.5 - 6% of E, and Kurds 7-11%. Iran has also 4.5%.

    The numbers are quite low, lower than Italy for example (11%). Spain is in the Middle with 7%, and Portugal on the top with 14%.

    Haplogroup E is quite widespread, it has something to do in lots of populations. Just see the Eupedia spreadsheet. Actually the highest European frequencies can be found all around the Balkans.
    Georgians are not the same as Armenians.

    There's some portion of E in West Asian because of the Greeks. Part of West Asia belonged to the (East) Roman Empire. Even before that, Alexander the Great was in West Asia. Also Mitanni were allies of the the ancient Egypt for some time. Greeks loved Egyptians and imported the 'African' to Europe, while Mitanni & Kassites imported 'African' E to West Asia. Also the Jews attributed to this process very much too.

    But E is still from Africa and it is an African lineage. Who am I to rob and deny the African influence in the Mediterranean, and and to the lesser extent Europe and Asia.

    Every time when I hear hg. 'E' I will always accredit and merit that to the Africans. Doesn't matter for me how much it is in other parts of the world. I'm not a hypocrite...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    About the Scythian, Sarmatian-Alan presence in West Asia, well the first mentioning of Scythians in history was indeed from West Asia by Assyrians who called them "Ishkuza" They were present in Urartu, Mannea even before any mentioning of them in North. Interestingly a Greek historian wrote (I don´t know his name anymore) The Scythians moved over the Aral See into the Steppes further North.
    True, the Assyrians (Akkadians) were annihilated by the Medes and Scythians. That was 612 BCE. Everybody is talking about a coalition between the Medes and Chaldeans, but I believe that Scythians helped their kinsmen very much.

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    And who say Scythians and Sarmatians were same nation ? Herodotus say Saramatians are descendants of Scyths and Amazones. But do you believe Amazones egzisted ? Even Herodotus clearly separate Sarmatians and Scythians - by teritory , languague( he say it is spoiled Scythian wich only mean they both speacked IE -Iranian languague- in that times there wa not such big diference betwen IE languagues) , customs,...
    I would repeat it again because clearly nobody hiered me first dozen times Herodotus story do not hold water( I would not say nonsence out of respect toward Herodotus, but again there was not Amazones) , while Diodorus ofers reasonable story : during they rule in Asia ( 650-626 )Scythians moved part of Medians north of Caucasus and they are known as Sarmathians -Solar Medes.
    All of historians clearly separate Scythians and Sarmathians , aldo Sarmathians were some kind of vasals to Scythians . Later Sarmathians were the ones who conquered and destroyed "they cousins" Scythian state .
    Scythians were clearly R1a ( greater percent ) with significant N1c ( Yakuti who call themselves Sake had 80% of N1c ) , and some Q and maybe some other haplogroups .
    And I do believe most of Slavs are descendants of Scythians - it is hard to believe one enormous population of R1a simply disapeared , and then in same place apeares another enormous population of R1a , and they dont have nothing in comon .
    As I previosly explained I believe Sarmathians were I2a2 -Din , and they descendants are Serbs and Croats , and other tribes that blended in Slavic populations . So the Medes were I2a2-Din , which is clearly represented in Kurds .
    Also it is quite posible that some of J2 in Balkans came with Thracians ( came from Asia Minor), Turks( Ottoman-Osmanli) , Neolithic farmers and Phoenicians and some with Sarmathian nations of Serbs , Croats and Bulgars .
    If somebody won to see why I think they are Sarmathian go to tread Sarmathians , Serbs , Croats and I2a2 and read my posts .There you will also find how most of I2a2 get were is it now.

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    And yes some of Scythian tribes get to Baltic - Neuri ( mentioned by Herodotus like Scythian nation) , there is some evidence that sugest that Neuri are ancestors of today Balts ( river Nevra , few cities with simillar names , ... ). They could also be same with Venedi .

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    Also I wasnt able to provide valid data about I2a2-Din in aeria around Caucasus where Sarmathians originaly dweled previous to they move to west( I allready posted data for Ossetians - north 32% of I2a2-Din and south 13% ). And now there it is :
    Tatars from Kazahstan ( where Alans lived ) : R1b 6% , R1a29%, I2a2 16% ,N1c 25%, E1b1b 2% , J 8% , G 7% , other 6%
    Chuvash ( on Caucasus ) : R1b 12% , R1a 18% , I2a2 24% ,N1c 18% , E1b1b 6% , J 6% , G 18%
    Baskhirs R1b 47% , R1a 26% , I2a2 4% ,N1c 17% , others 10%

    other : C , F* , N* , Q , R2
    All of this nations are Turkic ( Altai ) speacking . And they could be conected with Sarmathians that stayed in Hunic empire - Roxolans (bright Alans ) . One part of Roxolans acording to some Roman sources took Hunic languague and way of life , and they were called Saraguri

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Thank you very much for your input. But maybe the Scythians were North Caucasian folks too? And that their relatives - the Medes - lived in South Caucasus (- North Mesopotamia - Kurdistan).
    I don't think the Scythians were "North Caucasians". They were very much culturally (and obviously also linguistically) Iranian. Besides, the Scythians occupied in Antiquity an infinitely larger space than the North Caucasus (unlike the Ossetes today):

    Scythians are in orange

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    I don't think the Scythians were "North Caucasians". They were very much culturally (and obviously also linguistically) Iranian. Besides, the Scythians occupied in Antiquity an infinitely larger space than the North Caucasus (unlike the Ossetes today):

    Scythians are in orange
    Yes, I know this map. But I'm talking about the OLDER Scythians!

    this map is from 100 BCE, while the Scythians I'm talking about were already in the Middle East 700 BCE!!! Or 600 years before this map. Maybe even before that.

    Scythians I'm talking about lived together with the Medes. Parthians came much later and were Central Asian Iranic folks (maybe backmigration).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    I would repeat it again because clearly nobody hiered me first dozen times Herodotus story do not hold water( I would not say nonsence out of respect toward Herodotus, but again there was not Amazones) , while Diodorus ofers reasonable story : during they rule in Asia ( 650-626 )Scythians moved part of Medians north of Caucasus and they are known as Sarmathians -Solar Medes.
    All of historians clearly separate Scythians and Sarmathians , aldo Sarmathians were some kind of vasals to Scythians . Later Sarmathians were the ones who conquered and destroyed "they cousins" Scythian state .
    Scythians were clearly R1a ( greater percent ) with significant N1c ( Yakuti who call themselves Sake had 80% of N1c ) , and some Q and maybe some other haplogroups .
    And I do believe most of Slavs are descendants of Scythians - it is hard to believe one enormous population of R1a simply disapeared , and then in same place apeares another enormous population of R1a , and they dont have nothing in comon .
    As I previosly explained I believe Sarmathians were I2a2 -Din , and they descendants are Serbs and Croats , and other tribes that blended in Slavic populations . So the Medes were I2a2-Din , which is clearly represented in Kurds .
    Maybe 'Amazones' were just wild/barbaric people without any respect for rules.

    Also, I read nowhere that the Medes came from north (Eastern Europe) and entered West Asia. Most historians do agree on that the Medes were native to West Asia or they came from Central Asia. But I do believe they were West Asian and just a continuation of Mitanni/Kassites. I've my own reasons for that.

    Some people link Kassites to Scythians.

    I do also believe that the very first original Medes were J2, R1a & R2a people. But later they mixed with I2a-something people who lived already in Kurdistan folks like Guti or came later like the Hittites or even the hypothetical so called 'Cimmerians'.

    Also Scythians came NOT from the Baltics! Maybe they were there, but the Baltics was not their native homeland.

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    Were Kassites that live in the Mesopotamia 1700 - 1000? BCE related to or even the same as Scythians / Saka ? Notice that after them came Scythians. And people in the Mesopotamia started to write about Saka/'Ishkuza' and not Kassites. The name of the Kassites (Karanduniash) vanished from this region, while the name of the Scythians entered not much later after that.
    The neo-Babylonian Empire of these Kassites was also called Karanduniash. '-niash' means land. So, land of the Karandu.

    http://www.emmetsweeney.net/article-...scythians.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    As I previosly explained I believe Sarmathians were I2a2 -Din , and they descendants are Serbs and Croats , and other tribes that blended in Slavic populations . So the Medes were I2a2-Din , which is clearly represented in Kurds .
    Sarmatians came from South Ural and they were Iranic-speaking people. Does it look like some I2a2-Din people from Balkans? Surely not. It's obvious that Sarmatians were predominantly R1a people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    ...the Scythians I'm talking about were already in the Middle East 700 BCE!!! Or 600 years before this map. Maybe even before that.

    Scythians I'm talking about lived together with the Medes. Parthians came much later and were Central Asian Iranic folks (maybe backmigration).
    Well, while the question of the origin and ethnogenesis of the Scythians is very much unsettled, the most widely accepted theory that their "urheimat" is around the land between the Caspian Sea and the Amu Darya. The East Iranian (ie Avestan, Scithian Pamir) homeland is probably also around there, possibly identifiable with the Yaz culture of the early Iron Age (1500-1100 BC):
    "...With respect to location, date and a settlement type which
    may represent early Iron Age farmer-chieftains, the Yaz culture
    has been regarded as a likely archaeological reflection of east
    Iranian society as depicted in the Avesta."
    -EIEC
    (I attached a picture of the location of the Yaz CUlture)
    So, going back to your initial comment, it seems doubtful that the Scythians were North Caucasian folk, not in 100 BC, not in 700 BC, not in 1300 BC... I find it more probable that the Ossetes were "scythianized" North Caucasians
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    Well, while the question of the origin and ethnogenesis of the Scythians is very much unsettled, the most widely accepted theory that their "urheimat" is around the land between the Caspian Sea and the Amu Darya. The East Iranian (ie Avestan, Scithian Pamir) homeland is probably also around there, possibly identifiable with the Yaz culture of the early Iron Age (1500-1100 BC):
    "...With respect to location, date and a settlement type which
    may represent early Iron Age farmer-chieftains, the Yaz culture
    has been regarded as a likely archaeological reflection of east
    Iranian society as depicted in the Avesta."
    -EIEC
    (I attached a picture of the location of the Yaz CUlture)
    So, going back to your initial comment, it seems doubtful that the Scythians were North Caucasian folk, not in 100 BC, not in 700 BC, not in 1300 BC... I find it more probable that the Ossetes were "scythianized" North Caucasians
    Listen, thank you for your opinion and you have got a very interesting view of point.

    But the thing is that these Iranic people must be from somewhere. I don't think proto-Iranic or even proto-IE speakers were from Central Asia. And there is VERY MUCH West Asian DNA in Central Asia! Like hg. J2 of Y-DNA...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Listen, thank you for your opinion and you have got a very interesting view of point.

    But the thing is that these Iranic people must be from somewhere. I don't think proto-Iranic or even proto-IE speakers were from Central Asia. And there is VERY MUCH West Asian DNA in Central Asia! Like hg. J2 of Y-DNA...
    As I have said, my knowledge of DNA is very limited (at least in most cases), so in this occasion I can only contribute the discussion on the cultural sphere (which usually overlaps with the genealogical sphere...but only to a certain extent). And thus I think my humble contribution to this thread is complete... Unless you want my opinion on the ethno-cultural relations between the Medians and the Scithians/Sarmatians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    Unless you want my opinion on the ethno-cultural relations between the Medians and the Scithians/Sarmatians
    Please. I'm very much interested in your knowledge!

    What I do is just brainstorming and question everything. I do know nothing. I'm just a pilgrim lost in history who is in search for the true and what happened in the past. Every contribution and view of point from all over the world is a profit for the human race.
    If you want to know the world better you must include opinions of folks from all over the world. The better way to find the true is to approach it from as many perceptions as possible!

    So be kind and write everything what you know about the Scythians, Medes, East Europeans and other people…

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    But wait! Now I remember a study, an aDNA study of the Bronze Age Andronovo Culture of Central Asia and Southern Siberia (whose bearers were probably, in the early stages of the culture, Proto-Indo-Iranian)... In which "nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R1a1-M17 which is thought to mark the eastward migration of the early Indo-Europeans." It's called "Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people".

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    Please. I'm very much interested in your knowledge!
    Alright then..
    Among linguists, Iranian languages are split into two main branches: the Western branch (Kurdish, Median, Parthian, Persian, etc.) and the Eastern branch (Bactrian, Scythio-Sarmatian, Pamiris, Pashto, etc.). Now then, Iranian Langs. as a whole are usually thought to have their origin in the Eurasian Steppe. I personally would point especially to the Fedorovo culture, a culture around Southern Siberia (c. 1500-1300 BCE). This culture lies within the broader Andronovo Horizon (c. 2300-800 BCE), from which also the Indo-Aryans probably were, albeit at a much earlier date. The Andronovo Horizon slowly spread to the south and west (see map).
    Now then, from there, the East Iranians (such as Scythians) can probably be associated with the later phases of the Andronovo culture, as well as its western neighbour the Srubna Culture (c. 1700-1100 BCE) (see map).
    The West Iranians (such as the Medes) can probably be associated with the West Iranian Buff Ware (which appeared around 1100 BCE in the southwest Caspian coast, and then expanded towards the Zagros regions).
    So this is what I think, from what I have read.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Asturrulumbo; 07-09-11 at 22:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    Sarmatians came from South Ural and they were Iranic-speaking people. Does it look like some I2a2-Din people from Balkans? Surely not. It's obvious that Sarmatians were predominantly R1a people.
    Where did you find Sarmathians come from south Ural ? They came from Media as I explained and that is reason they speacked Iranian - like Medians, Scythians and Persians . If they camed from south Ural they would speack Uralic languague and have N1c predominant haplogroup . Where is your prove that Sarmathians were R1a , Scythians were R1a but not Sarmathians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Maybe 'Amazones' were just wild/barbaric people without any respect for rules.

    Also, I read nowhere that the Medes came from north (Eastern Europe) and entered West Asia. Most historians do agree on that the Medes were native to West Asia or they came from Central Asia. But I do believe they were West Asian and just a continuation of Mitanni/Kassites. I've my own reasons for that.

    Some people link Kassites to Scythians.

    I do also believe that the very first original Medes were J2, R1a & R2a people. But later they mixed with I2a-something people who lived already in Kurdistan folks like Guti or came later like the Hittites or even the hypothetical so called 'Cimmerians'.

    Also Scythians came NOT from the Baltics! Maybe they were there, but the Baltics was not their native homeland.
    I also believe Medes are native to west Asia or somwhere betwen it and Central Asia , but I believe they were carryers of I2a2-Din that took refuge there during LGM . R1a was bringed by IE speackers together with languague - like Scythians and Persians . J2 is comed in Asia Minor and Caucasus during Neolithe from fertile crescent .
    You didnt understand me I didnt said Scythians comed FROM Baltic , I said they settled there later . So the Sarmathians are, in antiquity ( Tacitus ,... ) Baltic sea was called oceanus Saramathicus - Sarmathian Ocean .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Where did you find Sarmathians come from south Ural ? They came from Media as I explained and that is reason they speacked Iranian - like Medians, Scythians and Persians .
    Wikipedia
    The Sarmatians emerged in the 7th century BC in a region of the steppe to the east of the Don River and south of the Ural Mountains.

    Prokhorovka kurgans associated with early Sarmatians are located in the Urals area in Russia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    If they camed from south Ural they would speack Uralic language and have N1c predominant haplogroup . Where is your prove that Sarmathians were R1a , Scythians were R1a but not Sarmathians.
    Maybe it would be a great opening for you but Sintashta-Petrovka-Arkaim culture is located in South Ural and nevertheless associated with R1a Arian people.

    By the way where did you get this weird idea that Sarmatians came from Media? The Sarmatian language is classified as Northeastern Iranian while the Median is Northwestern Iranian.

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    Read Diodorus he say that Scythians during they rule in Asia ( 650-624) taken parts of Medes north of Caucasus , and they are now Sarmathians- Solar Medes , like I already said up .That is egzactly VII century as Wikipedia says.
    Prokhorovka culture graves are from IV - II century BC , and that is after Sarmathians setled from Asia .
    Yes Andronovo or Petrovka culture was R1a but it was mostly west Siberia , and partualy south Ural , but it was 2.500-1000 years BC , and it was probably were Scythians come from .

    About languagues : Sarmathian was under influence of Scythian , and there is to litlle of it preserved to say was it closer to Scythian or Median .
    About West Balkans archeological findings show Slavic presence only from VI to VII century , while findings since VII century ( arriving Serbs and Croats ) are much more simillar to Sarmathian findings in Moldova ( Ants ) and Banat ( Yazigi) .And I2a2- Din is to young to be on Balkans since Paleolithe ( even Neolithe) , same as R1b is to young to be in West Europe since Neolithe.

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