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Thread: Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Read Diodorus he say that Scythians during they rule in Asia ( 650-624) taken parts of Medes north of Caucasus , and they are now Sarmathians- Solar Medes , like I already said up .That is egzactly VII century as Wikipedia says.

    Why should I believe in words of some Greek myth-writer? It's not serious. It's obvious that I2a2-Din people had nothing to do with Sarmatians even the idea itself that I2a2-Din people could be Northeastern Iranian speaking nomadic horse riders living in wagons and came from steppes to the East of the Don River looks incredibly weird.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    Why should I believe in words of some Greek myth-writer? It's not serious. It's obvious that I2a2-Din people had nothing to do with Sarmatians even the idea itself that I2a2-Din people could be Northeastern Iranian speaking nomadic horse riders living in wagons and came from steppes to the East of the Don River looks incredibly weird.
    I think that I2a-Din is less mysterious than most make it out to be. It seems clearly to be an example of a haplogroup that expanded recently and quickly within a population that picked it up while it was expanding itself. I'm not sure whether that's the Illyrians or the Slavs or somebody else, but I lean toward the Slavs based on current evidence. A connection with the Sarmatians is tenuous, mainly because there's no evidence that Haplogroup I spread to Asia at all until very recently. A remaining question is the Haplogroup I in Kurds, which we know too little about to contribute usefully to this discussion.

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    As for haplogroup J2 in modern Bulgaria it might be attributed to the Colchian (Caucasian) presence in Balkans according to Pliny the Elder.
    penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny3.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post

    Why should I believe in words of some Greek myth-writer? It's not serious. It's obvious that I2a2-Din people had nothing to do with Sarmatians even the idea itself that I2a2-Din people could be Northeastern Iranian speaking nomadic horse riders living in wagons and came from steppes to the East of the Don River looks incredibly weird.
    OK you obviosly dont know what are you talking about - you just called father of critical history a "Greek myth writer ". Have you even read Diodorus ?
    And what is your idea , who was the I2a2-Din original bearers ?

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    And no I2a2 is not Slavic because Slavs are mainly R1a -Scythian descendants , as I previosly explained all of I2a2 may be conected with Sarmathian movements , and please dont quote Kievan chronicles, because they are counterfited which is proven by science

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    First of all, Diodorus was certainly not a myth writer. Having said that, I don't think at all that the Sarmatians come from the Medes. If linguistic evidence isn't enough, then archaeological evidence should be: It seems reasonably clear to me that their origins lie along with that of the Scythians, and there is no archaeological evidence of a crossing from Persia to the steppe at that time, nor would the Sarmatians' inherently nomadic traditions point that they came from a highly urbanized region such as Persia. Also, one should not rule out that the Sarmatians were merely a mixing of the indigenous Cimmerians with invading Scythian tribes...

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    Medes in VII century , and also the Persians were prety much nomadic , some of Persian tribes are nomadic even during wars with Greeks - Germaniji from Kerman province. There is clear arheological evidence that show diferences betwen Scythians and Sarmathians - Sarmathian armor is same thing that Greeks call Medean suit - armor made of plates , only Medeans caried Persian robes over it.

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    And Cymerrians lived north of Black sea - where the Scythians lived later , and Sarmathians were north of Caucasus .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Medes in VII century , and also the Persians were prety much nomadic , some of Persian tribes are nomadic even during wars with Greeks - Germaniji from Kerman province. There is clear arheological evidence that show diferences betwen Scythians and Sarmathians - Sarmathian armor is same thing that Greeks call Medean suit - armor made of plates , only Medeans caried Persian robes over it.
    Which haplogroups did have the Medes according to you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    But wait! Now I remember a study, an aDNA study of the Bronze Age Andronovo Culture of Central Asia and Southern Siberia (whose bearers were probably, in the early stages of the culture, Proto-Indo-Iranian)... In which "nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R1a1-M17 which is thought to mark the eastward migration of the early Indo-Europeans." It's called "Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people".
    "the eastward migration". Exactly this is what I'm talking about. These Andronovo Culture folks came from somewhere else. Many people thought that they came from Europe (because of the Kurgans and steppes), but in Central Asia (around the Andronovo Horizon) is more West Asian DNA, than the North European DNA.
    Also ANI (Ancestral North Indian) is closer to West Asia than to North Europe.

    Some Iranic folks from Central Asia migrated back into West Asia. The Parthians (and maybe the Medes like some people say) are a very good example of it. But personally I do really think that the Medes just stayed behind in West Asia (Zagros mountains / the Iranian plateau) when their kinsmen migrated into Central Asia and formed the Andronovo and other related cultures.

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    Btw, it has been widely accepted by the scholars that the Scythians, Sarmartians and maybe even the so called Cimmerians belonged to the nearby western neighbouring Iranic culture called the Srubna Culture, successor to the Yamna culture. So these people were not from the Andronovo horizon.

    "The historical Cimmerians have been suggested as descended from this culture.The Srubna culture is succeeded by Scythians and Sarmatians in the 1st millennium BC, and by Khazars and Kipchaks in the first millennium AD."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srubna_culture

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    This Srubna Culture was a successor to the Yamna Culture.

    But in turn this Yamna Culture was heavily influenced by the folks from Caucasus (and West Asia), Maikop culture and other west ASIAN cultures and subcultures. Both cultures were practically the same!


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    The heart Andronovo horizon is pink, Srubna (Yamna) is on the westside.




    Here is the map of 'OLD Europe'


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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Which haplogroups did have the Medes according to you?
    Well if I would have to gues :
    yDNA
    I2a2-Din about 70%
    I2*+I2a* about 3%
    J2 about 8%
    R1a about 10%
    G2a about 3%
    E1b1b about 6%
    mthDNA
    H about 50%
    U about 20%
    K about 10%
    I about 15%
    X2 and W about 5%

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    Yamna culture is proposed as Proto IE - where the R1a lived before parts moved to form Andronovo culture , and Srubna culture . Srubna culture is maybe protoCymmerian , but Scythians definetly come from east - Scythians lived from Black sea to Altay .
    There is clear difference betwen Scythian and Sarmathian artefacts , burrials , customs , ... I dont know how could they be same

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    I dont know scientists that consider Scythians and Sarmathians are descendants of Srubna culture , they just replaced it on that aeria

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    I dont know scientists that consider Scythians and Sarmathians are descendants of Srubna culture , they just replaced it on that aeria
    Yes, Scythians came from the Andronovo area, but my question is where from came the ancestors of these Scythians?
    From the Iranian plateau or from the northern parts of Caucasus? If they were from Northern Caucasus, they would share the same ancestors as Srubna (Yamna) people.

    I do also believe that when Scythians came and tried to replace the original Srubna folks (let call them the Cimmerians from now on), many so called Cimmerians fled to southern Caucasus and Northwest Asia (around Kurdistan) and many stayed in their home place and mixed with the Scythians.

    Is it possible that the ancestors of the Sarmatians were the Scythians AND Cimmerians, the native population of Srubna culture.

    So that makes Sarmatians native to northern parts of the Caucasus, in & around the Srubna area.

    I think I2a-din was part of the Srubna people, and not of the Iranic speaking people that were from the Iranian plateau. So I2a-din in Kurdistan is maybe from North Caucasus, from the Srubna culture people...

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    I dont think so because of simple fact that Saramathian culture was very diferent from Scythian and Cymmerian , to be they descendant . And only reasonable explanation of Saramathian origins in Historic litereature is that they are descendants of Medians . Cymmerians and Scythians are both mainly R1a because they lived in place where R1a is since forming - Yamna - Srubno -Andronovo . Sarmathians show some simmilarities with Masagetae - they to have female rullers ( quen Tomirida -Tamara ; ida is Greek sufix) , on same place where Masagets lived has formed Alan confederation ( Alanliao in Chinese sources ) , so there could be also refuge of I2a2-Din .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    I dont think so because of simple fact that Saramathian culture was very diferent from Scythian and Cymmerian , to be they descendant . And only reasonable explanation of Saramathian origins in Historic litereature is that they are descendants of Medians . Cymmerians and Scythians are both mainly R1a because they lived in place where R1a is since forming - Yamna - Srubno -Andronovo . Sarmathians show some simmilarities with Masagetae - they to have female rullers ( quen Tomirida -Tamara ; ida is Greek sufix) , on same place where Masagets lived has formed Alan confederation ( Alanliao in Chinese sources ) , so there could be also refuge of I2a2-Din .
    Do you have pictures of their artefacts and other relics???

    How do you know that the Sarmatians, Scythians and Cimmerians were so different to each other? All these folks were Iranic speakers, so I do really think their cultures had some similarities.
    But it is also possible that the Cimmerians were not Iranic at all, but Europeans (I2a-din) who just spoke an Iranic language because they were influenced by other Iranic speakers from South Caucasus or Andronovo people.

    And according to me it is not very likely that Medes were I2a-din folks. They didn't come from Europe. No way they came from Europe. They were native to the Iranian plateau and according to me they were mainly R1a, R2a, J and maybe even R1b folks with some T (was called K2)! There's very much R1b in Eastern (Iranian occupied) Kurdistan.

    Plus there is for about 8% of R2a among Kurmanji Kurds (Northern Kurds) and also the same percentage in Tajikistan! This is very MUCH! Tajiks are linguistically and culturally related (very close) to the Kurds. Tajiks have very much of West Asian hg. J in them too. They found some R2a in the Trialeti culture sites, from about 3000 BCE. So R2a must be pre-Parthian in the Caucasus. But it's also possible that some R2a came to Kurdistan from Central Asia together with the Parthians.

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    Here are the Scythian artefacts. Even Hungarians think they're Scythians, everybody on this planet is Scythian lol...


    http://www.hunmagyar.org/tor/scyth.htm

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    "A cataphract-style parade armour of a Saka royal from the Issyk kurgan, Kazakhstan"
    http://www.ask.com/wiki/Scythians


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    Hungarians could be partualy Scythians , that later took Turkic culture.
    Hier are some Sarmathian artefactsAttachment 5123 Attachment 5124 Attachment 5125

    Attachment 5126
    Medes comed from north with Persians around end of II millenium BC . It is posible that they were rulling cast over native population , but there is posibility they all come from North . Name Mada is Persian and mean " one in the midle " , Herodotus say they real name is Aryan - and Ossetians call themselves Iron ( Ossetians are partualy descendants of Sarmathians).
    I2a2-Din come from Europe during LGM ( that was 20 thousand years ago ), long before formation of Medes so they are very much native.I2a2 definetly didnt spend LGM on Balkans - it is to young for that . Even I1 couldnt spend LGM in Scandinavia - in that time glaciers covered half Europe - tp Chezch and Slovakia - so I1 also had to spend LGM somwhere else and later move there .

    R2a aroused somewhere in Northern Pakistan -where is found most of R2* . R2a is most comon in India( both Darvidians and Rajputi) and Sri Lanka (10-15%) and Pakistan and Tajikistan 8% . It is probably there very long time . In Alanic kingdom there was dark skined nation who lived in valeys in cities , they were there before Alans -probably R2a , some writers conect them with Indians.
    Kurmanji Kurds in Grusia had 44% of R2a , and Kurmanji in Turkey 8% - that shows R2a was in Caucasus long before Kurds. It is also present in all south Caucasian populations.
    It is realy hard to believe Cymerians were I2a2-Din - because Cymeria is R1a shelter during LGM , so they would have to be R1a

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    So Cymmeria is place of R1a refuge , and R1a is one that is spreading due to horsebriding, ironwork , not the one that gets its lands invaded by I2a2-Din, she is the one that carry IE languagues west and east .
    Also Cymerians never lived North of Caucasus like Sarmathians , but North of Black sea ,so it would be more logical that Sarmathians are mixed Scythians and Caucasian population , which is ofcourse not the case.
    imagesCAE36WFF.jpg imagesCAIJDAXK.jpg imagesCAVATVGX.jpg mač i nož.jpg mindj2.jpg

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    There is very important difference betwen Scythians and Sarmathians - Scythian womens were never wariors , and Sarmathians are , also Sarmathae had woman rulers .
    ogrlica II vpne.jpg oružje.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Hungarians could be partualy Scythians , that later took Turkic culture.
    Hier are some Sarmathian artefactsAttachment 5123 Attachment 5124 Attachment 5125

    Attachment 5126
    Medes comed from north with Persians around end of II millenium BC . It is posible that they were rulling cast over native population , but there is posibility they all come from North . Name Mada is Persian and mean " one in the midle " , Herodotus say they real name is Aryan - and Ossetians call themselves Iron ( Ossetians are partualy descendants of Sarmathians).
    I2a2-Din come from Europe during LGM ( that was 20 thousand years ago ), long before formation of Medes so they are very much native.I2a2 definetly didnt spend LGM on Balkans - it is to young for that . Even I1 couldnt spend LGM in Scandinavia - in that time glaciers covered half Europe - tp Chezch and Slovakia - so I1 also had to spend LGM somwhere else and later move there .

    R2a aroused somewhere in Northern Pakistan -where is found most of R2* . R2a is most comon in India( both Darvidians and Rajputi) and Sri Lanka (10-15%) and Pakistan and Tajikistan 8% . It is probably there very long time . In Alanic kingdom there was dark skined nation who lived in valeys in cities , they were there before Alans -probably R2a , some writers conect them with Indians.
    Kurmanji Kurds in Grusia had 44% of R2a , and Kurmanji in Turkey 8% - that shows R2a was in Caucasus long before Kurds. It is also present in all south Caucasian populations.
    It is realy hard to believe Cymerians were I2a2-Din - because Cymeria is R1a shelter during LGM , so they would have to be R1a
    ? What do you mean by 20 thousand years ago?

    Yes there's about 44% of R2a among Kurmanji Kurds in Georgia, but there live only 30,000 Kurds or maybe even less. These Kurds marry only with each other, because most of them are Yezidi. It's forbidden for the Yezidi Kurds to marry other religions. So 44% is due to the bottleneck effect. Kurmanji Kurds in Georgia are the same as Kurmanji Kurds in Turkey. Most Kurmanji in Georgia are originally from Turkish Kurdistan. But Kurmanji Kurds in Turkey converted into Islam, while some Yezidi Kurds remained Yezidi. So that's why I'm counting all Kurmanjis as 1 Kurdish tribe. And about 8% of all Kurmanjis is R2a.
    Bartangis of Tajikistan have a high frequency of R2a at about 17%.

    R2a is a sister clade of R1a, it is from the same ancestor R*. R2a and R1a are almost the same. And it's at least as old as R1a. R2a is also very high among some other non-IE populations in Caucasus.
    R2a in the Caucasus is at least 5000 years old! Upper castes of india that are very rich of R1a have very much R2a and J2 too.

    "Haplogroup R2a has a more significant presence in middle and upper castes."
    http://mulnivasiorganiser.bamcef.org/?p=165

    Very dark skinned folks in West Asia have the Elamites and the aboriginal Paleo-Caucasian-Hurrian Mesopotamian roots! It has nothing to do with R2a! But with hg. T, I think! There's a correlation between R1a, R2a and J in Iranic peoples.

    I think that the Medes were R (R1a, R2a & R1b) and J (Caucasian J1 and J2) folks.

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