Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

[Cobol19]

No I2a1b is I P37 it peaks in southeastern Europe and it former designation is I2a2 Din and before that I1b and I M26 is now known as I2a1a and it peaks in Sardinia and some aerias in Spain . You realy have toubles with designations . I1b(XM26) in this paper means I1b ( Old designation for I2a1) without (X) M26 . This paper prove my point there is high I2a1b Din in SerboCroatian lands and it is lower in neighboring nonSerboCroatian lands - if it is not haplogroup that Serbs and Croats bringed on Balkans it would be very strange . It is also outdated - I2a1b Din cant be on Balkans since Paleolithe since it estimated age is 2.500 years .
You only argument is density of I2a1b Din on Balkans , but highest density of R1b is in west Europe - which doesnt mean it is there since Paleolithe

Bodin, I'll make it very simple for you:

I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b

Look at the link again:

http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf

I1b (Which is I2a2) peaks in countries like Bosnia/Herzegovina, Croatia, Serbia, and Macedonia, the lineage that peaks in Sardinia is I2a1a.

The I* that exists in West Asia is probably mostly I2c and I2a1b, and it's not strange that it came from Southeast Europe since that's where it peaks.

Do you know anything about genetic , archeology and history ? Scythians spocked Iranian , and they were direct descendants of Andronovo culture peoples , and direct ancestors of Slavs - look for DNA researches of Scythian graves

According to ancient Andronovo and Scythian DNA, I2a1b has nothing to do with them, only R1a1a and haplogroup C* to a smaller extent.

 

[sparkey]

Cobol19, saying that the frequency of I2a-Din in the Balkans is evidence that it originated there is poor reasoning. The center of diversity of I2a-Din is apparently not in the Balkans, and the clade TMCRA is very young to begin with, indicating that it expanded on the Balkans rapidly and recently (relatively speaking, the Classical and Medieval periods are very much in play). As I've mentioned, Nordtvedt places the center of diversity of I2a-Din north of the Balkans, as diversity of it appears to increase as we go north. However, it's less clear where the center of diversity is on an east/west scale, mainly because we don't have enough data on I2a-Din in the East.

That isn't to say that I agree with Bodin, especially on his dismissal of the Slavs as being the source of I2a-Din in the Balkans. His main objection to that theory seems to be that the Slavs carried primarily R1a, which is now more rare than I2a-Din in the Balkans. But I think this frequency-based argument runs into similar issues. It's entirely possible that the expanding population had genetic drift toward a minority haplogroup, or that they were such a small segment of the original population that their haplogroup frequencies weren't representative of the whole. Besides, there is significant North Slavic I2a-Din, which we are fairly sure is older than Balkan I2a-Din, so why not assume them as the source, given that our knowledge of Eastern I2a-Din is lacking?

 

[zanipolo]

Cobol19, saying that the frequency of I2a-Din in the Balkans is evidence that it originated there is poor reasoning. The center of diversity of I2a-Din is apparently not in the Balkans, and the clade TMCRA is very young to begin with, indicating that it expanded on the Balkans rapidly and recently (relatively speaking, the Classical and Medieval periods are very much in play). As I've mentioned, Nordtvedt places the center of diversity of I2a-Din north of the Balkans, as diversity of it appears to increase as we go north. However, it's less clear where the center of diversity is on an east/west scale, mainly because we don't have enough data on I2a-Din in the East.

That isn't to say that I agree with Bodin, especially on his dismissal of the Slavs as being the source of I2a-Din in the Balkans. His main objection to that theory seems to be that the Slavs carried primarily R1a, which is now more rare than I2a-Din in the Balkans. But I think this frequency-based argument runs into similar issues. It's entirely possible that the expanding population had genetic drift toward a minority haplogroup, or that they were such a small segment of the original population that their haplogroup frequencies weren't representative of the whole. Besides, there is significant North Slavic I2a-Din, which we are fairly sure is older than Balkan I2a-Din, so why not assume them as the source, given that our knowledge of Eastern I2a-Din is lacking?

Bodin, did not say slavs brought I2a-din to the balkans, but he said Sarmatians did, of which Serbians and Croats descented from.
I agree with Bodin to a point. I agree with you that R1a is not "just" a slavic haplotype, but refers to a slavic-germanic-dacian type along with other haplotypes
Thats how I understood it

 

[sparkey]

Bodin, did not say slavs brought I2a-din to the balkans, but he said Sarmatians did, of which Serbians and Croats descented from.
I agree with Bodin to a point. I agree with you that R1a is not "just" a slavic haplotype, but refers to a slavic-germanic-dacian type along with other haplotypes
Thats how I understood it

Yeah, I know he thinks the Sarmatians brought it, I was arguing that he shouldn't be dismissing the Slavs as another possibility... in fact, I find the Slavs more likely a possibility unless we get more data on Eastern I2a-Din that indicates otherwise.

 

[zanipolo]

Yeah, I know he thinks the Sarmatians brought it, I was arguing that he shouldn't be dismissing the Slavs as another possibility... in fact, I find the Slavs more likely a possibility unless we get more data on Eastern I2a-Din that indicates otherwise.

you do realise, that whatever choice we make, it indicates that I2a-din was not present in the western balkans during roman times. With that in mind and following the Uterice culture scholars. It means that the western culture was I1 or whatever was in the bohemian-pannonian areas

 

[sparkey]

you do realise, that whatever choice we make, it indicates that I2a-din was not present in the western balkans during roman times. With that in mind and following the Uterice culture scholars. It means that the western culture was I1 or whatever was in the bohemian-pannonian areas

Yeah, no matter what we do, we end up with the Balkans having a lot of Classical/Medieval input and less Paleolithic/Neolithic/Bronze Age input than we might expect. I suspect that the Y-DNA frequencies across the Balkans were a lot more like what they are in Albania now before this input, that is, less I2 and R1a, and more R1b, J2, J1, and E1b.

(I1? Not really, I1 is also fairly young and would have been largely confined to a smallish area around Denmark/Germany/Sweden/etc. until the Migration Period).

 

[Pyrub]

The fact that E1b1b is as rare in Hercegovina as it is in Austria or other parts of northern Europe. That R1b is largely absent, as is R1a shows that there was very little gene flow from Southern Balkans to Central Balkans and Western Europe to Central Balkans.

I don't know why we're still discussing the same stupid arguments that have no evidence supporting them.

1) There is no evidence that I2a2 was brought by Slavs to the Balkans.
2) Language doesn't prove genetic origin. (Gaelic has lost favor in Ireland and was replaced by English in the last 200 years, it's a dying language).
3) Basic evolutionary genetics suggest that Hercegovina and Dalmatia were one of the more difficult places to colonize due to geographic isolaton.

If any of you have taken any evolutionary genetics courses, which seems unlikely, you will know that a major factor that stops gene flow is geographic isolation. This is caused by geographic barriers to gene flow (mountains, oceans, etc). This is pretty simple to understand.

The region of Croatia with the highest I2a2 is Dalmatia and Hercegovina.

To the West of this region we have the Adriatic sea.
To the East of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.
To the North of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.
To the South of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.

In Slavonia, although similar language, and also the genetic isolation of communism we show much higher frequencies of western european admixture. Slavonia lacks geographic isolation.

In Serbia, which shares the same language, we have higher rates of E1b1b and other non I2a2 haplogroups. Serbia lacks clear geographic boundaries.

There is no evidence that I2a2 came from Goths or Slavs or any other ancient people that supposedly invaded the Balkans. There's no evidence that this part of the Balkans was ever invaded, apart from Roman conquests, which show no genetic footprints and Turkish conquests, which show very little genetic footprints.

It's pretty pathetic to attempt to say that while the Romans and Turks showed no genetic footprints, that some fantasy people invaded and footnotes in thousand year old books prove evidence of this invasion. Until someone shows me any evidence for this hypothesis, i can't take it seriously.

 

[Sile]

The fact that E1b1b is as rare in Hercegovina as it is in Austria or other parts of northern Europe. That R1b is largely absent, as is R1a shows that there was very little gene flow from Southern Balkans to Central Balkans and Western Europe to Central Balkans.

I don't know why we're still discussing the same stupid arguments that have no evidence supporting them.

1) There is no evidence that I2a2 was brought by Slavs to the Balkans.
2) Language doesn't prove genetic origin. (Gaelic has lost favor in Ireland and was replaced by English in the last 200 years, it's a dying language).
3) Basic evolutionary genetics suggest that Hercegovina and Dalmatia were one of the more difficult places to colonize due to geographic isolaton.

If any of you have taken any evolutionary genetics courses, which seems unlikely, you will know that a major factor that stops gene flow is geographic isolation. This is caused by geographic barriers to gene flow (mountains, oceans, etc). This is pretty simple to understand.

The region of Croatia with the highest I2a2 is Dalmatia and Hercegovina.

To the West of this region we have the Adriatic sea.
To the East of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.
To the North of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.
To the South of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.

In Slavonia, although similar language, and also the genetic isolation of communism we show much higher frequencies of western european admixture. Slavonia lacks geographic isolation.

In Serbia, which shares the same language, we have higher rates of E1b1b and other non I2a2 haplogroups. Serbia lacks clear geographic boundaries.

There is no evidence that I2a2 came from Goths or Slavs or any other ancient people that supposedly invaded the Balkans. There's no evidence that this part of the Balkans was ever invaded, apart from Roman conquests, which show no genetic footprints and Turkish conquests, which show very little genetic footprints.

It's pretty pathetic to attempt to say that while the Romans and Turks showed no genetic footprints, that some fantasy people invaded and footnotes in thousand year old books prove evidence of this invasion. Until someone shows me any evidence for this hypothesis, i can't take it seriously.

your point 1 - we can agree with this until further evidence arrives.

2 - languages exist based on the government in power, if the government shows genocidial tendencies to NOT allow these other languages to be taught in schools, then the language would die. Since most nations practice this form of Genocide on cultures within their nation. what kind of democracy do we have.?
I am not NOT referring to migrational languages. The only reason that celtic and/or latin did not remain in vogue, was that it was used solely as a commerce language. Slavic was forced by the sword to be used, thats why it dominated .


3- you are joking? . An area which was infested with Illyrian tribes , which gave the macedonians and Romans much trouble to conquer .

You do know that between the adriatic sea and the dinaric mountains is only about 50Kms , actually between 1 to 60Kms
What about the rest of the western balkans?

 

[Bodin]

Bodin, I'll make it very simple for you:

I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b

Look at the link again:

http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf

I1b (Which is I2a2) peaks in countries like Bosnia/Herzegovina, Croatia, Serbia, and Macedonia, the lineage that peaks in Sardinia is I2a1a.

The I* that exists in West Asia is probably mostly I2c and I2a1b, and it's not strange that it came from Southeast Europe since that's where it peaks.

yes I know that I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b , it is my haplogroup , what I tried to corect in your previous post is that I2a1b is not I M26 but I P37 .
So now you acepting possibility that I* in West Asia is I2a1b , why do you argued at all ?
How did I2a1b get from Balkans to Kurdistan without leaving almoust any traill in Anatolia - do you believe they had aeroplains ?

 

[Bodin]

Bodin, I'll make it very simple for you:

I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b

Look at the link again:

http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf

I1b (Which is I2a2) peaks in countries like Bosnia/Herzegovina, Croatia, Serbia, and Macedonia, the lineage that peaks in Sardinia is I2a1a.

The I* that exists in West Asia is probably mostly I2c and I2a1b, and it's not strange that it came from Southeast Europe since that's where it peaks.



According to ancient Andronovo and Scythian DNA, I2a1b has nothing to do with them, only R1a1a and haplogroup C* to a smaller extent.

I was allways saying to you that Scythian ( and Slavic)DNA is R1a1 ( and probably some N and Q ) , I never said that I2a1b is Scythain or Slavic , I said it is SARMATHIAN . Do you read my treads at all ? Or you just love to argue ?

 

[Bodin]

Cobol19, saying that the frequency of I2a-Din in the Balkans is evidence that it originated there is poor reasoning. The center of diversity of I2a-Din is apparently not in the Balkans, and the clade TMCRA is very young to begin with, indicating that it expanded on the Balkans rapidly and recently (relatively speaking, the Classical and Medieval periods are very much in play). As I've mentioned, Nordtvedt places the center of diversity of I2a-Din north of the Balkans, as diversity of it appears to increase as we go north. However, it's less clear where the center of diversity is on an east/west scale, mainly because we don't have enough data on I2a-Din in the East.

That isn't to say that I agree with Bodin, especially on his dismissal of the Slavs as being the source of I2a-Din in the Balkans. His main objection to that theory seems to be that the Slavs carried primarily R1a, which is now more rare than I2a-Din in the Balkans. But I think this frequency-based argument runs into similar issues. It's entirely possible that the expanding population had genetic drift toward a minority haplogroup, or that they were such a small segment of the original population that their haplogroup frequencies weren't representative of the whole. Besides, there is significant North Slavic I2a-Din, which we are fairly sure is older than Balkan I2a-Din, so why not assume them as the source, given that our knowledge of Eastern I2a-Din is lacking?

Well I wouldnt call it Northern Slavic DNA - highets frequency of I2a1b is in Ukraine and Moldova - Sarmathian habitat , while it is much decreased in North Russia - actualy there is much stronger Germanic and Finnic DNA .

 

[Bodin]

Cobol19, saying that the frequency of I2a-Din in the Balkans is evidence that it originated there is poor reasoning. The center of diversity of I2a-Din is apparently not in the Balkans, and the clade TMCRA is very young to begin with, indicating that it expanded on the Balkans rapidly and recently (relatively speaking, the Classical and Medieval periods are very much in play). As I've mentioned, Nordtvedt places the center of diversity of I2a-Din north of the Balkans, as diversity of it appears to increase as we go north. However, it's less clear where the center of diversity is on an east/west scale, mainly because we don't have enough data on I2a-Din in the East.

That isn't to say that I agree with Bodin, especially on his dismissal of the Slavs as being the source of I2a-Din in the Balkans. His main objection to that theory seems to be that the Slavs carried primarily R1a, which is now more rare than I2a-Din in the Balkans. But I think this frequency-based argument runs into similar issues. It's entirely possible that the expanding population had genetic drift toward a minority haplogroup, or that they were such a small segment of the original population that their haplogroup frequencies weren't representative of the whole. Besides, there is significant North Slavic I2a-Din, which we are fairly sure is older than Balkan I2a-Din, so why not assume them as the source, given that our knowledge of Eastern I2a-Din is lacking?

Well hier is reason why I dismis Slavs as carriers of I2a1b -1) there is no archeological evidence of any numerous Slavic settling on Balkans 2) Serbs and Croats are mentioned by Pliny like Sorabi and Heruatas - Sarmathian tribes and 3) and most important - Slavic DNA in Serbia , Bosnia ,and all over Balkans is not more than 5% of total population ( except Croatia and Slovenia - but Croatia incorporated Slavonia - part of Slavic Balaton duchy , and Avars settled Slovenia with Slavs - like the name of both Slavonia and Slovenia says), while in Serbia , Croatia and Bosnia , there is over 40% of I2a1b ( if that would be whole incoming population there would be 89% of I2a1b and 11% of Slavic R1a- ofcourse R1a had comed in other Slavic tribes to like Moravci and Timochani that comed before Serbs ) , and in Slavic populations there is no more than 16% of I2a1b and over 50% of R1a ( if that would be total Slavic population ratio would be 25% I2a1b to 75%R1a ) - only explanation is mixing of diferent populations not same population
4)If I2a1b was in Ukraine since LGM it would have to be lot more mixed with R1a ( Yamna culture is proto IE - R1a carriers ) - so there is no way Serbs would have only 5% of slavic R1a
Thats my main reasons I dont believe I2a1b is Slavic , but reminescence of Sarmathians that lived on North coast of Black sea before Slavs - either tru mixing of Sarmathians whit Slavs during they rule over them , either tru Russian conqueste of population North of Black sea and slavization

 

[Bodin]

The fact that E1b1b is as rare in Hercegovina as it is in Austria or other parts of northern Europe. That R1b is largely absent, as is R1a shows that there was very little gene flow from Southern Balkans to Central Balkans and Western Europe to Central Balkans.

I don't know why we're still discussing the same stupid arguments that have no evidence supporting them.

1) There is no evidence that I2a2 was brought by Slavs to the Balkans.
2) Language doesn't prove genetic origin. (Gaelic has lost favor in Ireland and was replaced by English in the last 200 years, it's a dying language).
3) Basic evolutionary genetics suggest that Hercegovina and Dalmatia were one of the more difficult places to colonize due to geographic isolaton.

If any of you have taken any evolutionary genetics courses, which seems unlikely, you will know that a major factor that stops gene flow is geographic isolation. This is caused by geographic barriers to gene flow (mountains, oceans, etc). This is pretty simple to understand.

The region of Croatia with the highest I2a2 is Dalmatia and Hercegovina.

To the West of this region we have the Adriatic sea.
To the East of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.
To the North of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.
To the South of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.

In Slavonia, although similar language, and also the genetic isolation of communism we show much higher frequencies of western european admixture. Slavonia lacks geographic isolation.

In Serbia, which shares the same language, we have higher rates of E1b1b and other non I2a2 haplogroups. Serbia lacks clear geographic boundaries.

There is no evidence that I2a2 came from Goths or Slavs or any other ancient people that supposedly invaded the Balkans. There's no evidence that this part of the Balkans was ever invaded, apart from Roman conquests, which show no genetic footprints and Turkish conquests, which show very little genetic footprints.

It's pretty pathetic to attempt to say that while the Romans and Turks showed no genetic footprints, that some fantasy people invaded and footnotes in thousand year old books prove evidence of this invasion. Until someone shows me any evidence for this hypothesis, i can't take it seriously.

Well Herzegovina and Dalmatia were not realy isolated - the richest cityes were on Dalmathian coast - lots of Roman emperors were from Dalmatia and Balkans , Dalmathia was center of ostrogothic conquest , Dalmatia sufer most of Avar atacks( Avar took Dalmatian prisoners in Panonia give them freedom and make a whole new tribe out of them ), than comed Croatians and after them Serbs . You forgot to mention Albania that is realy isolated and had highest E1b1b in Balkans , and they are also Illyrian . Sarmathians is not imaginary nation , it is nation that use to hold whole European Russia and Poland from Caucasus to Baltic sea ( Oceanus Saramathicus in ancient sources ) . Sources write about 500.000 of archers just in Alan army. Do you believe that great number of peoples just disapeared? And again Pliny write about Sorabi and Harauati , Sarmathian tribes
Also Mesapi in South Italy are Illyrian tribe that crossed Adriatic sea , and they dont have I2a1b . Romans use to use Balkanic populations like soldiers in West Europe - and there is no noticable I2a1b , which would be if it is Illyrian . Wales shows high E1b1b , which is explained by Mesian soldiers , and Messi were part Illyrians part Tracians , and there is still no I2a1b in Wales.

 

[Pyrub]

Well Herzegovina and Dalmatia were not realy isolated - the richest cityes were on Dalmathian coast - lots of Roman emperors were from Dalmatia and Balkans , Dalmathia was center of ostrogothic conquest , Dalmatia sufer most of Avar atacks( Avar took Dalmatian prisoners in Panonia give them freedom and make a whole new tribe out of them ), than comed Croatians and after them Serbs . You forgot to mention Albania that is realy isolated and had highest E1b1b in Balkans , and they are also Illyrian . Sarmathians is not imaginary nation , it is nation that use to hold whole European Russia and Poland from Caucasus to Baltic sea ( Oceanus Saramathicus in ancient sources ) . Sources write about 500.000 of archers just in Alan army. Do you believe that great number of peoples just disapeared? And again Pliny write about Sorabi and Harauati , Sarmathian tribes
Also Mesapi in South Italy are Illyrian tribe that crossed Adriatic sea , and they dont have I2a1b . Romans use to use Balkanic populations like soldiers in West Europe - and there is no noticable I2a1b , which would be if it is Illyrian . Wales shows high E1b1b , which is explained by Mesian soldiers , and Messi were part Illyrians part Tracians , and there is still no I2a1b in Wales.

Listen my Srb friend.

Go look at any map and tell me that Dalmatia and Hercegovina are not geographically isolated. This is pure nonsense. A country that isn't geographically isolate is Serbia. I'm really not sure whether or not to take that statement seriously. Do you know what geographic isolation is?

What it isn't is flat land. Which is most of Serbia. Kosovo seems like recent e1b1b arrival and if you think those dirty animals are Illyrian you're more brainwashed than anything. Look up where the capital of Illyria was. I don't care about Illyria but the absurdity of the argument that some people in Kosovo are Illyrian is laughable. Sources seem to point to Stolac, Hercegovina as the capital of Illyria. Which is off of the Neretva and easy access to the sea.

I have a theory that haplogroup I2 people are sea people. The haplogroup distribution seems to indicate that we are sea people. We were sea people in the days of the Roman empire and beyond. The coastal regions of Ukraine, Moldova are all sea areas. The Sardinian population could only be explained by haplogroup I2 being sea people. There must have been an i2 tribe that forked and voyaged to sardina and started a foundry effect population.

If you think 500,000 archers crossed the dinaric alps and conquered all of Bosna and coastal Croatia I think your imagination is very vivid. Archers are hardly effective in mountains and prone to attacks. It sounds and smells like a lie. The Turkish and roman footprints are almost none in the Balkans aside from Muslim bosnians. And that was hundreds of years of control.

 

[Bodin]

Listen my Srb friend.

Go look at any map and tell me that Dalmatia and Hercegovina are not geographically isolated. This is pure nonsense. A country that isn't geographically isolate is Serbia. I'm really not sure whether or not to take that statement seriously. Do you know what geographic isolation is?

What it isn't is flat land. Which is most of Serbia. Kosovo seems like recent e1b1b arrival and if you think those dirty animals are Illyrian you're more brainwashed than anything. Look up where the capital of Illyria was. I don't care about Illyria but the absurdity of the argument that some people in Kosovo are Illyrian is laughable. Sources seem to point to Stolac, Hercegovina as the capital of Illyria. Which is off of the Neretva and easy access to the sea.

I have a theory that haplogroup I2 people are sea people. The haplogroup distribution seems to indicate that we are sea people. We were sea people in the days of the Roman empire and beyond. The coastal regions of Ukraine, Moldova are all sea areas. The Sardinian population could only be explained by haplogroup I2 being sea people. There must have been an i2 tribe that forked and voyaged to sardina and started a foundry effect population.

If you think 500,000 archers crossed the dinaric alps and conquered all of Bosna and coastal Croatia I think your imagination is very vivid. Archers are hardly effective in mountains and prone to attacks. It sounds and smells like a lie. The Turkish and roman footprints are almost none in the Balkans aside from Muslim bosnians. And that was hundreds of years of control.

Yes friend they are isolated but less than Albania , or you do not agreed with that , Albania is isolated even todayand it had lot of E1b - most in Europe . What I tried to say is that they were realy rich provinces and they were main target for Avar attacks . Avar killed lot of Dalmatian population and then Croats and Serbs killed Avars and more old population.
Illyrians lived from Dalmatia to Albania , Dardani nation that lived on Kosovo and North Macedonia were Illyro- Thracians . Albanians speack branch of IE languague similar to no other - so it is most probably realy long on Balkans , they languague even shows similarities with Pelazg languague . Where did you think Albanians come from( you said they not Illyrians , so they had to come from somewhere ) - remember it had to be aeria with realy high E1b and IE languague similar to Albanian .
Albanian suits are realy similar to Illyrian and customs like tatooing .Albanians get they name by Albanoi - Illyrian tribe in south Albania and they town Albanopolis
Balkan i2a1b and Sardinian I2a1a separated from each other 12.000 years ago and that is realy long time to claim same culture .
There is strong I2a1b in Bohemia , in Northwest Ukraine (Lviv district and Ivano-Frankovsk and that are not sea aerias ) and they are not even near any sea . Only ones rely god at sea during Midle ages were Neretlians , others were bether on land.
Not only one time multitude of mounted archers crossed dinaric and burned Roman lands- Dalmatia( Bosnia and coastal Croatia ) - remember Huns ? Avars ? Do you believe they were also imagination , do they also smell like a lie .
Emperor Hercleus called Serbs and Croats to settle on Balkans as shield against Avar attacks ( after 626 attack on Constantinopolis ) , and they do and Avars never again attacked that city , so it was not conquering they were given lands by emperor if they clean them of Avars .Read De administratio imperio
Emperor Constantine( IV century) settled 500.000 Yazigi in Balkans provinces - so there was some Sarmathian DNA on Balkans before coming of Serbs and Croats .
Who says there is no Roman influence on Balkans - on what data you base that statement? Turks didnt settled on Balkans , they just conquered it and use native nobility converted to islam ( or not ) , to control lands - Bosniacs do not have lot biger Turkic influence than Serbs or Greeks , and it is realy small in all Balkanic nations .

 

[Bodin]

Question : if I2a1b is carried by Slavs , why there is no I2a1b in Scythian graves , but almoust exclusivly R1a?

 

[zanipolo]

Yes friend they are isolated but less than Albania , or you do not agreed with that , Albania is isolated even todayand it had lot of E1b - most in Europe . What I tried to say is that they were realy rich provinces and they were main target for Avar attacks . Avar killed lot of Dalmatian population and then Croats and Serbs killed Avars and more old population.
Illyrians lived from Dalmatia to Albania , Dardani nation that lived on Kosovo and North Macedonia were Illyro- Thracians . Albanians speack branch of IE languague similar to no other - so it is most probably realy long on Balkans , they languague even shows similarities with Pelazg languague . Where did you think Albanians come from( you said they not Illyrians , so they had to come from somewhere ) - remember it had to be aeria with realy high E1b and IE languague similar to Albanian .
Albanian suits are realy similar to Illyrian and customs like tatooing .Albanians get they name by Albanoi - Illyrian tribe in south Albania and they town Albanopolis
Balkan i2a1b and Sardinian I2a1a separated from each other 12.000 years ago and that is realy long time to claim same culture .
There is strong I2a1b in Bohemia , in Northwest Ukraine (Lviv district and Ivano-Frankovsk and that are not sea aerias ) and they are not even near any sea . Only ones rely god at sea during Midle ages were Neretlians , others were bether on land.
Not only one time multitude of mounted archers crossed dinaric and burned Roman lands- Dalmatia( Bosnia and coastal Croatia ) - remember Huns ? Avars ? Do you believe they were also imagination , do they also smell like a lie .
Emperor Hercleus called Serbs and Croats to settle on Balkans as shield against Avar attacks ( after 626 attack on Constantinopolis ) , and they do and Avars never again attacked that city , so it was not conquering they were given lands by emperor if they clean them of Avars .Read De administratio imperio
Emperor Constantine( IV century) settled 500.000 Yazigi in Balkans provinces - so there was some Sarmathian DNA on Balkans before coming of Serbs and Croats .
Who says there is no Roman influence on Balkans - on what data you base that statement? Turks didnt settled on Balkans , they just conquered it and use native nobility converted to islam ( or not ) , to control lands - Bosniacs do not have lot biger Turkic influence than Serbs or Greeks , and it is realy small in all Balkanic nations .

If E1b is Illyrian and this is albanian, then why is there less than 5% E1b in northern illyria and less than 10% in central illyrian lands?

E1b IMO was the ancient dardanians that migrated from anatolia. Albanians are from dacia/moesian ( paeonians) people that where pushed southwest by slavic/sarmatian migration

 

[rms2]

Question : if I2a1b is carried by Slavs , why there is no I2a1b in Scythian graves , but almoust exclusivly R1a?

The Scythians are believed to have been an Iranian-speaking people. So, I2a1b could be Slavic without turning up among the non-Slavic, Iranian-speaking Scythians.

 

[Bodin]

If E1b is Illyrian and this is albanian, then why is there less than 5% E1b in northern illyria and less than 10% in central illyrian lands?

E1b IMO was the ancient dardanians that migrated from anatolia. Albanians are from dacia/moesian ( paeonians) people that where pushed southwest by slavic/sarmatian migration

What do you consider North Illyrian - I believe North Illyrians were in Noricum ( later they were Celtisized ) and Panonia , and there is 10% of E1b in Austria and Hungary , in some aerias even stronger .
If you consider Dalmatia and Herzegovina North and central Illyrian lands : they were heavily depopulated and almoust all population is replaced - hier is another proof fro that - there is almoust no R1b in Bosnia and Herzegovina , but if old population would still be there R1b would have to be significant - Celts were present in that aeria - lot of Celtic place names , but almoust no Celtic haplogroups . Also Romans had to left some R1b , but it seems they are all killed or resetled
Dardanians were of mixed Illyrian and Thracians origins , Panonians are Illyrian tribe . Also I already spocked about forming of new tribes by Romans after rebellion of Panonian and Illyrian rebelion 6.-9. AD - Thracian , Illyrian and Celtic tribes were mixed - so since than they would have almoust same haplogroups - there is no significant genetic diference betwen Thracians ( including Dacians ) , and Illyrians ( including Panonians)

 

[Bodin]

The Scythians are believed to have been an Iranian-speaking people. So, I2a1b could be Slavic without turning up among the non-Slavic, Iranian-speaking Scythians.

But wait a moment , Scythians ruled over proto Slavs so they would mixed with them , also it is real posibility that Slavs are descendants of Scyth ploughers and older population of descendants from Yamna culture - Cymmerians and they were both R1a - and R1a is prevalent Slavic haplogroup - if I2a1b is Slavic why dont Slavs have more of it than R1a ?
Ukrainians have 12% of I2a1b ( amongs strongest percents in Slavs , except " South Slavs")and 11,8% of J2 , why dont you claim J2 is also Slavic