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Thread: Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

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    Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

    Many Europeans in Central and Northeast Europe claim their ancestry. But those people were Euroasian and not entirely European and they spoke Iranic (Aryan) languages. But people in Europe don't speak Aryan languages.

    I know nothing about these peoples, but somehow they got my attention and I got interested in these people, because many folks link them to the ancient West Asian Aryan Medes (Mitanni).
    I'm a West ASIAN Kurd and Kurds in general claim their ancestry to the West ASIAN Iranic Medes. In Kurdistan there're many archaeological traces left of these Aryan folks and of their Zoroastrian and other Aryan religions. So I truly believe that Aryan ancestors of the Kurds were West Asian too.

    If it is true that Scythians/Sarmatians were related to the Medes, then it's possible that these Scythians/Sarmatians were and admixture of North EUROPEAN and West ASIAN DNA, it is also possble that these folks had mostly West Asian DNA. Because I believe that the proto-Aryans came from West Asian/South Caucasus.

    So I think that these Scythians/Sarmatians that live in North Caucasus were:

    mostly R1a, I2a, J2a. With some Caucasian G2a, R1b, R2a, J1 & T and East European Q & N elements, but not so much.

    What are your thoughts about these folks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Many Europeans in Central and Northeast Europe claim their ancestry. But those people were Euroasian and not entirely European and they spoke Iranic (Aryan) languages. But people in Europe don't speak Aryan languages.
    It is true that people in Europe don't speak Iranic languages today, with possible exception of the Ossetians in the Caucasus (in fact, Ossetian is the last remaining survivor of the Scythian languages). However, I do not think that the Ossetians, with their very small population, are genetically representative of the ancient Scythians/Sarmatians. You have to consider that for a while (well, actually, many centuries!), large swathes of eastern Europe (basically all of southern Ukraine) was inhabited by Iranic tribes. There were even Iranic tribes in the eastern portions of the Pannonian basin (the Iazyges).

    In my opinion, what seems likely is that most of these Sarmatians were absorbed by the Slavic peoples. This is also backed up linguistically as there are Iranic loans into Proto-Slavic. Regarding the genetic aspects, without a doubt they would have been major carriers of Haplogroup R1a. Considering the geographic area, I2a2 is also possible (not I2a1, for obvious reasons), but considering that the Haplogroup is probably native to Eastern Europe (well, at least, likely native since Neolithic times), I don't think it would be originally Scythian.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    I believe the purest scythian blood is in baltic and east slavic countries (lithuania, russia, belarus etc). Look at autosomal dodecad charts, you'll see why I say this. I believe scythians and sarmatians were mostly R1a with a small amount of R1b. I do not believe they originally had any J, G or I in them at all. Compare y-dna with autosomal and you'll see where I get my ideas from.


    The non-slavic scytho-sarmatian theory of bulgarians I believe to be 100% false. This comes from bulgarians who hate turks who do not want to admit the original bulgar tribe was of turkic origin. Either way bulgarians do have some scythian and sarmatian blood that comes from both the slavic and turkic components, as both slavs and turkic peoples all have partial scytho-sarmatian ancestry.

    As for the Ossettes (Alani as they call themselves) they have absorbed much caucasus blood and traditions over time due to their location. Jaszones of hungary, the original serbs and croats (the tribes they take their names from) were also Alan tribes (Osprey publishing is a good source for this as it has been later quoted by almost all later sources). The polish also claim sarmatian ancestry, just look up "sarmatism".

    As for a genetic connection to the medes I don't know. Scythians did cross the caucasus at one point warring with cimmerians, I think medes were a part of that story as well but I can't remember. I look forward to whatever you come up with though, I have a feeling it will be interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milovan View Post
    I believe the purest scythian blood is in baltic and east slavic countries (lithuania, russia, belarus etc). Look at autosomal dodecad charts, you'll see why I say this. I believe scythians and sarmatians were mostly R1a with a small amount of R1b. I do not believe they originally had any J, G or I in them at all. Compare y-dna with autosomal and you'll see where I get my ideas from.
    Ok. Thank you for your input!

    But how do you explaine to me that Bulgarians have more J2a than R1a?

    I think that Scytho-Sarmatians in Europe mixed with the native (non IE) folks of Europe, while Scytho-Sarmatians in Central Asia mixed with the native Central Asians, while Iranic tribes from West Asia remained in West Asia and mixed with other (non-Iranic) West Asians, mostly folks from the Caucasus (Hurrians).

    That's how they grew apart. Every Iranic tribe got their own separate family but they all had the same roots and came from West Asia.

    Northeast European and West Asian autosomal components are very close to each other.

    But Iranic (ARYAN) tribes of West Asia stayed very close to their roots and the culture of their ancestors. They preserved their Aryan language and their 'Iranic' culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milovan View Post
    I believe the purest scythian blood is in baltic and east slavic countries (lithuania, russia, belarus etc). Look at autosomal dodecad charts, you'll see why I say this. I believe scythians and sarmatians were mostly R1a with a small amount of R1b. I do not believe they originally had any J, G or I in them at all. Compare y-dna with autosomal and you'll see where I get my ideas from.
    Lithuania is historically very unlikely, primarily because Scythian tribes never moved this far north. Baltic tribes such as the Galindians and Sudovians inhabited the Baltic area since at least the 2nd century AD. I think that based on the historic distribution, the Scythians would have left their biggest marks in Ukraine and southern Russia.

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    Yes, but I think Scythians/Sarmatians had very much J2a too. Look at Bulgaria. Many Bulgarians (like Ukrainians) think they are descendants of these Scytho-Sarmartians. And there's 20% of J2a in Bulgaria.

    Many Iranic folks in Central Asia, like Tajiks from Tajikistan have very much R1a, R2a and J2a (West ASIAN) but not so much I2a-something.
    Although the have much more R1a, maybe even much more than 50%. In some areas like around their capital Dushanbe, J2a and R2a are VERY dominant too.

    So I truly believe that R1a (+R2a) and West ASIAN J2a were dominant in proto-Iranic tribes.

    So maybe is J2a in Eastern European not from the Neolithic farmers but from Aryan tribes from West Asia.


    Thank you for your reply.

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    According to DODECAD Northeast European autosomal component is closer to the West Asian component than to the Southwest European component. So the North European and West Asian are the closest components to each other.

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    This autosomal dodecad graph is very recent and up to date. It's from June 4 2011!

    http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/06/...s-on-west.html

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    I know very little about DNA... But although ethnolinguistically, the Ossetes seem to be the best canditate for maintaining the Scythian "heritage", they have, as has been pointed out, been extremely influenced by their Caucasian neighbours over time, and it is thus quite probable that they retain little of what was the (ancient) Scythian DNA. For example, doing an etymological comparative of their mythological figures with the known Scythian deities, there seems to be little or no correspondence: On the contrary, they have correspondence with the mythological figures of the other (especially North) Caucasian peoples.

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    Goga I did some digging for you in connection to scythians/sarmatians and the medes.
    Osprey men at arms series (miltary history books) is the source, from 2 books- the sarmatians 600 bc- ad 450, it states AD 73 Alans raid parthia, media and defeat armenian king tiridates, AD 135 Alans raid media and armenia, but are repulsed from capadoccia by the roman governor arrian. 2nd book the scythians 700-300 bc- it states- early 7th century bc cimmerian and scythian conquest of urartu, scythian activity in the middle east recorded in assyrian texts, 670's bc scythian king partatua fights assyria, marries daughter of assyrian ruler esarhaddon, mid 7th century bc king madyes leads scythian expedition to borders of egypt, 652-626 bc period of scythian influence in media, 612 bc medes and scythians capture nineveh and destroy assyrian empire, late 7th century bc medes drive scythians north of caucasus into north pontic area, 310-309 bc scythians defeat caucasians at thatis river.
    that is all the mentions of scythians and sarmatians in or south of the caucusus until the ossetians went in to the north caucusus.

    that oughtta give you plenty to theorize about.


    why do bulgarians have a lot of J2? they are in the balkans and absorbed many balkan peoples like thracians and others. neolithic farmers and phoenicians brought a lot of J into the balkans as well as other haplogroups.

    you are looking at the wrong dodecad info, look at the admixture charts. they are more specific then what you posted. yes the entire middle east has some caucusus blood, you will see it in those admixture charts I speak of as "west asian" I believe it corresponds to y-dna hap G as it is highest in georgians and the caucusus. i believe hap J is "southwest asian" on dodecad charts, which is highest in saudi's and would be arab/semite bloodline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milovan View Post
    Goga I did some digging for you in connection to scythians/sarmatians and the medes.
    Osprey men at arms series (miltary history books) is the source, from 2 books- the sarmatians 600 bc- ad 450, it states AD 73 Alans raid parthia, media and defeat armenian king tiridates, AD 135 Alans raid media and armenia, but are repulsed from capadoccia by the roman governor arrian. 2nd book the scythians 700-300 bc- it states- early 7th century bc cimmerian and scythian conquest of urartu, scythian activity in the middle east recorded in assyrian texts, 670's bc scythian king partatua fights assyria, marries daughter of assyrian ruler esarhaddon, mid 7th century bc king madyes leads scythian expedition to borders of egypt, 652-626 bc period of scythian influence in media, 612 bc medes and scythians capture nineveh and destroy assyrian empire, late 7th century bc medes drive scythians north of caucasus into north pontic area, 310-309 bc scythians defeat caucasians at thatis river.
    that is all the mentions of scythians and sarmatians in or south of the caucusus until the ossetians went in to the north caucusus.

    that oughtta give you plenty to theorize about.


    why do bulgarians have a lot of J2? they are in the balkans and absorbed many balkan peoples like thracians and others. neolithic farmers and phoenicians brought a lot of J into the balkans as well as other haplogroups.

    you are looking at the wrong dodecad info, look at the admixture charts. they are more specific then what you posted. yes the entire middle east has some caucusus blood, you will see it in those admixture charts I speak of as "west asian" I believe it corresponds to y-dna hap G as it is highest in georgians and the caucusus. i believe hap J is "southwest asian" on dodecad charts, which is highest in saudi's and would be arab/semite bloodline
    Thank you for you researchers about the Medes. And you might be right about the Bulgarians being Balkan folks.

    But their biggest haplogroups are J2 and I2a, both 20%!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    I know very little about DNA... But although ethnolinguistically, the Ossetes seem to be the best canditate for maintaining the Scythian "heritage", they have, as has been pointed out, been extremely influenced by their Caucasian neighbours over time, and it is thus quite probable that they retain little of what was the (ancient) Scythian DNA. For example, doing an etymological comparative of their mythological figures with the known Scythian deities, there seems to be little or no correspondence: On the contrary, they have correspondence with the mythological figures especially the other (especially North) Caucasian peoples.
    Thank you very much for your input. But maybe the Scythians were North Caucasian folks too? And that their relatives - the Medes - lived in South Caucasus (- North Mesopotamia - Kurdistan).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Thank you very much for your input. But maybe the Scythians were North Caucasian folks too? And that their relatives - the Medes - lived in South Caucasus (- North Mesopotamia - Kurdistan).
    I don't think the Scythians were "North Caucasians". They were very much culturally (and obviously also linguistically) Iranian. Besides, the Scythians occupied in Antiquity an infinitely larger space than the North Caucasus (unlike the Ossetes today):

    Scythians are in orange

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    I don't think the Scythians were "North Caucasians". They were very much culturally (and obviously also linguistically) Iranian. Besides, the Scythians occupied in Antiquity an infinitely larger space than the North Caucasus (unlike the Ossetes today):

    Scythians are in orange
    Yes, I know this map. But I'm talking about the OLDER Scythians!

    this map is from 100 BCE, while the Scythians I'm talking about were already in the Middle East 700 BCE!!! Or 600 years before this map. Maybe even before that.

    Scythians I'm talking about lived together with the Medes. Parthians came much later and were Central Asian Iranic folks (maybe backmigration).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    ...the Scythians I'm talking about were already in the Middle East 700 BCE!!! Or 600 years before this map. Maybe even before that.

    Scythians I'm talking about lived together with the Medes. Parthians came much later and were Central Asian Iranic folks (maybe backmigration).
    Well, while the question of the origin and ethnogenesis of the Scythians is very much unsettled, the most widely accepted theory that their "urheimat" is around the land between the Caspian Sea and the Amu Darya. The East Iranian (ie Avestan, Scithian Pamir) homeland is probably also around there, possibly identifiable with the Yaz culture of the early Iron Age (1500-1100 BC):
    "...With respect to location, date and a settlement type which
    may represent early Iron Age farmer-chieftains, the Yaz culture
    has been regarded as a likely archaeological reflection of east
    Iranian society as depicted in the Avesta."
    -EIEC
    (I attached a picture of the location of the Yaz CUlture)
    So, going back to your initial comment, it seems doubtful that the Scythians were North Caucasian folk, not in 100 BC, not in 700 BC, not in 1300 BC... I find it more probable that the Ossetes were "scythianized" North Caucasians
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l9oDPeNZPo...%2BKurd_12.png

    autosomal test for Kurds

    now autosomal charts that deal with many nations
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IHlgWAewnr...urasian_12.png

    what says "east european" is obviously R1a
    "west european" is R1b
    I already explained "west asian" as G caucasus and "southwest asian" as semitic J
    "mediteranean" equates to hap I

    who said that this equates to that etc? me, it's my theory
    I could be wrong but my research or rather me studying the research of others brings me to this conclusion



    Asturrulumbo, as far as ossetian folklore I have noticed the same, it is nart sagas like the rest of the caucusus. scholars claim it does have ancient iranian influence but that the bulk of it is indigenous to the caucusus. as for their looks they look exactly like other caucasians and are low in R1a, I wait for autosomal info on them as I expect them to be just like most of the caucasus but with more of an east euro component then their neighbors.

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    Goga you were talking about genetic distance I forgot to throw this in their for you
    its from dodecad v3 and corresponds to bopth charts I posted previously

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Pw7x-HD7ON.../s1600/fst.png

    what you were referring to as "north european" is old info, it has now been split into east and west european

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milovan View Post
    Goga you were talking about genetic distance I forgot to throw this in their for you
    its from dodecad v3 and corresponds to bopth charts I posted previously

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Pw7x-HD7ON.../s1600/fst.png

    what you were referring to as "north european" is old info, it has now been split into east and west european
    Like I said many people believe that Scythians were mainly R1a people. But it is just impossible that they were exclusively R1a. Nobody is 'pure' and nobody was ever pure!

    J2 and J1 in Kurds is partly from the Caucasian people and partly from the Iranic people.

    Some J1 and E are from the Semitic speaking peoples, like the Assyrians. And some of it is from the Greeks.

    As you can see the distance between East and West Europe = only 0.044.

    The distance between East Europe and Mediterranean = 0.056
    The distance between East Europe and West Asia = 0.055

    The distance between West Europe and Mediterranean = 0.058
    The distance between West Europe and West Asia = 0.048

    The closest people to West Asia are West Europeans. Distance between them = only 0.048, much less than between West European and Mediterranean which = 0.058.

    North European is CLOSER to West Asia than to Mediterranean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Like I said many people believe that Scythians were mainly R1a people. But it is just impossible that they were exclusively R1a. Nobody is 'pure' and nobody was ever pure!

    J2 and J1 in Kurds is partly from the Caucasian people and partly from the Iranic people.

    Some J1 and E are from the Semitic speaking peoples, like the Assyrians. And some of it is from the Greeks.

    As you can see the distance between East and West Europe = only 0.044.

    The distance between East Europe and Mediterranean = 0.056
    The distance between East Europe and West Asia = 0.055

    The distance between West Europe and Mediterranean = 0.058
    The distance between West Europe and West Asia = 0.048

    The closest people to West Asia are West Europeans. Distance between them = only 0.048, much less than between West European and Mediterranean which = 0.058.

    North European is CLOSER to West Asia than to Mediterranean.
    You are right Goga. However, note there is a problem because K=12 also says West Asian is closer to Southwest Asian than the Mediterranean is. The tree you are using belongs to K=10, where it's TRUE that Southern European was closer to Southwest Asian, but with the new interpretation of Southern Europe (Mediterranean), this has changed.

    What you say it makes sense. Just wanted to point there's some discrepancy between both runs. West asian here is 0.054 from Southwest Asian, while the Mediterranean is 0.057...a bit far in comparison.

    I personally think Dienekes' should named Mediterranean in a different way (as for example Paleolithic European) to avoid this problem...very obvious while checking the distances. Or just separating Southern Europe in two diferentiated regions, the same as Northern Europe (Southwest and Southeast Europe).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    You are right Goga. However, note there is a problem because K=12 also says West Asian is closer to Southwest Asian than the Mediterranean is. The tree you are using belongs to K=10, where it's TRUE that Southern European was closer to Southwest Asian, but with the new interpretation of Southern Europe (Mediterranean), this has changed.

    What you say it makes sense. Just wanted to point there's some discrepancy between both runs. West asian here is 0.054 from Southwest Asian, while the Mediterranean is 0.057...a bit far in comparison.
    Yes. Maybe it's true. I do believe this is due big parts of the Southwest Asia component are from West Asia.
    Southwest Asian components are J1, E and maybe T. J1 is from IJ . And the Archaic haplogorup IJ is from West Asia. From IJ came I1, I2, J1 and J2. Hg. J1 connects Southwest Asia and West Asia.

    However the closest component to West Asia is West Europe. The distance between Soutwest Asian and West Asia is 0.054, while the distance between West Asian and West European is only 0.048. West Europeans are the closest folks to West Asia.

    According to this the closest components to Mediterranean are East European and West Asian, both 0.056! West Asian is closer to Mediterranean than West European is (0.058).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I believe that the Scythian/Indo Iranic peoples did contribute to certain Slavic populations. Some Slavic words, like Bog(God) are said to be loanwords from Iranian languages. There is also high levels of similarity between Slavic/Baltic languages and Sanskrit, which is an Indo European tongue.

    Polish nobility always claimed descent from the Sarmatians. Recent studies have shown that Polish coats of arms were different than western heraldry, and bears imagery and cult symbols found among Scythian/Alanic peoples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milovan View Post
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l9oDPeNZPo...%2BKurd_12.png

    autosomal test for Kurds

    now autosomal charts that deal with many nations
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IHlgWAewnr...urasian_12.png

    what says "east european" is obviously R1a
    "west european" is R1b
    I already explained "west asian" as G caucasus and "southwest asian" as semitic J
    "mediteranean" equates to hap I

    who said that this equates to that etc? me, it's my theory
    I could be wrong but my research or rather me studying the research of others brings me to this conclusion



    Asturrulumbo, as far as ossetian folklore I have noticed the same, it is nart sagas like the rest of the caucusus. scholars claim it does have ancient iranian influence but that the bulk of it is indigenous to the caucusus. as for their looks they look exactly like other caucasians and are low in R1a, I wait for autosomal info on them as I expect them to be just like most of the caucasus but with more of an east euro component then their neighbors.
    Long time I thought that J2 was somehow connected to the Semites too. But I think that I was wrong. And I think that you are wrong too. Georgians are 0.5% Southwest Asian, while they have 24.5% J2, 12% J1 and 4.5 E. They're 72.3 % West Asian.

    So J2 and the oldest sub clades of J1 are only and MUST be West Asian.

    Southwest Asian in Kurds is mainly because of Semitic sub clades of J1 and E, mainly from the Assyrians (and their kinsmen), but also from the Greeks and Arabs.

    E and some sub clades of J1 are Semitic!

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    Scythians where always said to be Hunnic peoples , some say modern hungarians. I think taransis is correct
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galindians

    besides the area is heavily infestated with N1c1

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