Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

[Kardu]

Which family? If it's not to private for you. Don't say Bagrationi. A lot Georgians belong to a noble family, maybe Georgia has the highest nobility rating in the whole world!

BTW, a majority of the French kings were G2!

Old nobility but certainly not Bagrationi Anyway old Bagrationi male line ended with the death of Prince Demna in the 12the century AD. Current Bagrationis are descendants of David Soslan, prince of ossetes, the second husband of Queen Tamar. David Soslan could have had Sarmat, Hun, Khazar, Chechen etc. ancestry...

 

[Goga]

Old nobility but certainly not Bagrationi Anyway old Bagrationi male line ended with the death of Prince Demna in the 12the century AD. Current Bagrationis are descendants of David Soslan, prince of ossetes, the second husband of Queen Tamar. David Soslan could have had Sarmat, Hun, Khazar, Chechen etc. ancestry...

Thanks. I think that the old Bagrationi's were G2a folks!

 

[Goga]

Teheran is a multicultural city. MANY Kurds or People with Kurdish origin live there. Surprisingly Teheran and Esfahan are the only cities where some I* was found. Surprisingly Esfahan was just 50 Years ago half Kurdish today still 1/5 of its population is Kurdish. Do you know the Mother of Benazir Buttho? She is Kurdish from Isfahan. She belongs to the Kurdish Isfahani Clan which was settled throughout Central Asia. In fact only Cities were there is a Kurdish presence showed some I*. In all other major Iranian cities I is very absent.

Ok. thanks.

Of course I know Buttho. She was very proud that her mom was Kurdish.

I think the ancient Hurrians and other similar ancient West Asian populations probably played a bigger role in Kurdish DNA than the ancient Iranians, this has been proven by the autosomal DNA which shows mostly West Asian.

My friend, you're free to think what ever you want. But there's a possibility that the ancient proto-Iranic folks were West Asian or had much West Asian DNA! And that proto-IE folks had many West Asian DNA too.

So West Asian DNA in Kurds is not ONLY from the Hurrians but also from Iranic peoples.

 

[Kardu]

Thanks. I think that the old Bagrationi's were G2a folks!

Why would they be? Anything is possible...

 

[Goga]

Why would they be? Anything is possible...

True, but G2a is Caucasian and 31% or maybe more of all Georgians belong to G2a!

 

[Kardu]

True, but G2a is Caucasian and 31% or maybe more of all Georgians belong to G2a!

I'm afraid we are going off-topic here but I'd like to tell you that Bagrationi's themselves believed to be descendants of Biblical King David. Even if they were ethnic Georgians the location where they come from is a hotbed of J1* and Caucasian R1b. I2c would be a good candidate too

 

[Goga]

I'm afraid we are going off-topic here but I'd like to tell you that Bagrationi's themselves believed to be descendants of Biblical King David. Even if they were ethnic Georgians the location where they come from is a hotbed of J1* and Caucasian R1b. I2c would be a good candidate too

Yes, I know that the Bagrationi dynasty was the longest-reigning royal family in the Caucasus (and in Europe). Their name existed already in 4th century, but to claim that you're descendant of Biblical King David is crazy.

But you're right that Bagrationi could be also Caucasian J1, J2 or R1b.

 

[Kardu]

Yes, I know that the Bagrationi dynasty was the longest-reigning royal family in the Caucasus (and in Europe). Their name existed already in 4th century, but to claim that you're descendant of Biblical King David is crazy.

But you're right that Bagrationi could be also Caucasian J1, J2 or R1b.

Considering that we have in Georgia a Jewish community with well-documented history of 26 centuries, Bagrationis' claim might had some ground.
There are graves of pre-tvelfth century kings in Georgia, perhaps one day we'll be allowed to conduct paleo-dna analysis and the truth will be known.

 

[Bodin]

I2c as a Balkans refuge subclade is possible but unlikely IMHO, since its older clusters are very Western and its most closely related subclade, I2b-ADR, is Central. Though, there's been enough bottlenecking that we can't really extrapolate back to the Paleolithic easily.

Nordtvedt guesses a Mediterranean route with a Western or Central MRCA location for I2c and a Northeastern European (somewhere around Belarus) MRCA location for I2a-Din, see here. That is based strictly on SNP hierarchy and STR diversity so it's unbiased-ish.

Thats interesting thanks for sharing.

 

[Bodin]

What are the sources? Anyone with good designing skills can make a map, but what studies are these maps based on? I ask for the source, not a map.

Your mistake is you have no sources, the sources you're providing don't say I2a2, they say I*, this I* could be I2a2, I2a*, I2b, I2c, so on, in other words you're basing this on speculations, which are NOT facts, but rather guesses, a fact is when you have proper evidence, until you provide the evidence that the majority are I2a2, there's no need to speculate.

The other thing is, EVEN if I2a2 is found in Anatolia, what makes you think it did not enter Anatolia from the Balkans? In fact that's most likely the case, since it's rarity in Central Asia and other Iranian populations such as Pashtuns, Tajiks, Pamiris, Balochis, etc tells me that this lineage is not really one of the components among the Iranian populations, and its presence among the Kurds is the same reason why it's present among the Armenians, Turks, and other Anatolian populations, it's a gene wave from the Balkans.

Map is beter prove than no prove - and that is what is you ofering , give any REASON why should it be I2c or I2b when they both are extremly rare .No it couldnt be on Balkans since LGM because it is to young - it is estimated as 2.500 years old and thats to young . If she would be on Balkans before VI century , than old Balkan population would be 90% of today Balkan population , which is inplausible . Prove I2a1b-Din is from Balkan.

 

[Bodin]

If you're trying to sell me the "Haplogroup I comes from Medes", you fail, it's a gene wave from the Balkans, whether it's 16% or 3%, it does not change where it came from, if you had told me lineages like R1a1a, J2a, R2a, or L3, I would say you have a point, but I2 is super rare in South Central Asia, that's where the Medes AND the Persians come from, and that's also the place where most Iranian people originated (Scythians included according to Herodotus).

Scythians and Persians were R1a . Like I said there is no way I2a1b is from Balkans . PROVE it is from Balkans if you claim so . Are you Turkic ? You just criticize every evidence and no providing any of your on

 

[Cobol19]

Map is beter prove than no prove - and that is what is you ofering , give any REASON why should it be I2c or I2b when they both are extremly rare .No it couldnt be on Balkans since LGM because it is to young - it is estimated as 2.500 years old and thats to young . If she would be on Balkans before VI century , than old Balkan population would be 90% of today Balkan population , which is inplausible . Prove I2a1b-Din is from Balkan.

The map is not a proof when it has no proper sources to back it up, I can make up my own man right now, does that make it evidence too?

Scythians and Persians were R1a . Like I said there is no way I2a1b is from Balkans . PROVE it is from Balkans if you claim so . Are you Turkic ? You just criticize every evidence and no providing any of your on

I provide no evidence? How fitting lol, here you go:

http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf

The current I2a1b is haplogroup I1b-M26, which is the former designation for I2a2, it peaks in frequency and diversity in Southeast Europe.

 

[Bodin]

1. I have already provided you the link to the Balanovsky's paper where you can find these maps and conclusions made on their analysis. It looks like you are not prone to read papers through. Try again: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05...-caucasus.html

2. About Russians and I-P37. Not all Russians have considerable amounts of I-P37 but mainly those who live in historical Russian regions (regions of the first migration waves of Slavs in Russia). The closer to Ukrain and Belarus the more amount of I-P37 you can find but if you move further to the North and to the East from the historical Russian regions you can find much more I-253 than I-P37.

1)No I read it realy god first time , but I believed you will understand you mistake . Well hier is the quote ( just below your maps ) from that tread :"seems that both R1a1a-M198 and I2a-P37 have a major barrier eastward in the Don river. Please note that the former is not strictly a European haplogroup, but it nonetheless experiences a massive drop in frequency, and is negligible everywhere except in Abkhaz-Circassians (NW Caucasus; 10.3-19.7%), with an outlier in Dargins (22%).



This seems to put a limit on the origin of any hypothetical movements across the Eurasian steppe east of the Don river, as haplogroup I2a-P37 is largely absent in Central Asia, and occurs 3 times in 1,525 individuals in this sample. So, while there have been proposals of a Central European origin of some steppe pastoralist groups, these are hard to reconcile with this picture."
So what he says hier is that there is I2a2 in Caucasus , but in low frequencies , except in Dargins and Abhkaz were it is realy high . I already provided papers that show high i amongs Ossetians , but only in two aerias Digora and Ardon( up to 30% ) , rest of North Ossetians and all south Ossetians have no I ( because of heavy mixing with Caucasian populations - which is shown by lot of G , actualy South Ossetians could be native population that just accepted Iranic languague ) - and that would produce low I2 in overall Ossetian population - same thing with Tatars from our previous dispute .
Thank you for evidence there is I2 in Central Asia - 3/ 1525 , but that is aeria where old population was mostly exchanged by incoming Turks and then mongols.
2)Yes on North there is less I2 but there is also less R1a( 30%) and high N- there is a lot of Russicized Fins , But east was setled by Russians from that aerias that you call " historicaly Russian "

 

[Bodin]

Read what I said again, the meaning of it is that you're mixing time-periods, a better example of this is like comparing the modern English speakers to an the Anglo-Saxson speakers from 1000 years ago, while modern English does indeed come from Anglo-Saxon, the two languages are NOT the same, this is what Old English sounded like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVyXDYp60BE

Do you understand? No.



Proto-Indo-Iranian is also a different time-period, the Proto-Indo-Iranian is connected with the Andronovo culture, not Mitanni.



Sanskrit clearly comes from Indo-Aryan, Mitanni (Based on whatever words were found), also shares this Indo-Aryan connection, which I should add, was mostly just the names of Gods that were worshiped by the Vedic Aryans (Sanskrit speakers), so in reality, there's no strong evidence on whether the Mitanni spoke an Indo-Iranian at all, but if they did, it would have been comparable to the Vedic Aryans that migrated to India, not the language of the Medes/Persians.



I accept the Kurds as an Iranian West Asian people, meaning the majority of their genes are native to West Asia but they carry some Indo-Iranian genes, if anything, I think the ancient Hurrians and other similar ancient West Asian populations probably played a bigger role in Kurdish DNA than the ancient Iranians, this has been proven by the autosomal DNA which shows mostly West Asian.



I don't try to link the Kurds with anything, but if you were to ask, the Kurds are closer to some of their non-Indo-European neighboring populations such as Turks, Assyrians, Lebanese etc than they are to actual Indo-Europeans such as the Russians or Ukrainians for example, this goes to show you that just because certain groups speak a certain language, it does not mean much in genetics.

O, now proto- IndoIranian is linked with Andronovo culture - west Siberia and not to Persian province Aria( where you say Persians and Medes - speackers of that languague coming from ) ? There is some links of Kurds with neighbors but differences are masive - realy different nations and origins. .

 

[Cobol19]

O, now proto- IndoIranian is linked with Andronovo culture - west Siberia and not to Persian province Aria( where you say Persians and Medes - speackers of that languague coming from ) ? There is some links of Kurds with neighbors but differences are masive - realy different nations and origins. .

That's Proto-Indo-Iranian, not Iranian, do you know anything about language families?

- Proto-Indo-European
-- Indo-European
--- Proto-Indo-Iranian
---- Indo-Iranian
----- Indo-Aryan / Iranian
------ Persian/Mede fall under the Iranian branch.

 

[Bodin]

I already explained very well what or who Medes were. I still dont understand how people insist on this Mede I2a Kurdish theory. In fact we cant be sure and it is only a theory. The I2a among Kurds could indeed be a geneflow from Balkan. I dont have to remind you Guys that beside Alan, Scythian, Cimmerian tripes also other existed. Another of them are the Karduchis from Gordyeme, Gordiane,Gorduene, Gordion in Southeast Anatolia which according to Strabo got its name from the Phrygian disgtrict of Gordyaea . And we all know that Phrygians originated from Balkans. This could also be a explain for I* among Kurds. However it is also possible that I* came with Cimmerians or Scythians of Media who settled in Kurdistan. Everything is possible and all of this theories are speculations for now.

Ofcourse it is theory , we are hier to discus theories. I2a cant be on Balkans such long period - its old only 2.500 years , and wouldnt Phrygians or Cymmerians give it to Turks also ? There is no way I2a2 would live in hart of R1a Urheimat - steppes north of Black sea and not get mixed with it - only 5% of Slavic R1a Serbia .

 

[Bodin]

Read what I said again, the meaning of it is that you're mixing time-periods, a better example of this is like comparing the modern English speakers to an the Anglo-Saxson speakers from 1000 years ago, while modern English does indeed come from Anglo-Saxon, the two languages are NOT the same, this is what Old English sounded like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVyXDYp60BE

Do you understand? No.



Proto-Indo-Iranian is also a different time-period, the Proto-Indo-Iranian is connected with the Andronovo culture, not Mitanni.



Sanskrit clearly comes from Indo-Aryan, Mitanni (Based on whatever words were found), also shares this Indo-Aryan connection, which I should add, was mostly just the names of Gods that were worshiped by the Vedic Aryans (Sanskrit speakers), so in reality, there's no strong evidence on whether the Mitanni spoke an Indo-Iranian at all, but if they did, it would have been comparable to the Vedic Aryans that migrated to India, not the language of the Medes/Persians.



I accept the Kurds as an Iranian West Asian people, meaning the majority of their genes are native to West Asia but they carry some Indo-Iranian genes, if anything, I think the ancient Hurrians and other similar ancient West Asian populations probably played a bigger role in Kurdish DNA than the ancient Iranians, this has been proven by the autosomal DNA which shows mostly West Asian.



I don't try to link the Kurds with anything, but if you were to ask, the Kurds are closer to some of their non-Indo-European neighboring populations such as Turks, Assyrians, Lebanese etc than they are to actual Indo-Europeans such as the Russians or Ukrainians for example, this goes to show you that just because certain groups speak a certain language, it does not mean much in genetics.

So , now proto Indo European is from Andronovo - west Siberia and Medes and Persians are from Persian satrapy Ariana - and again it is realy comon name amongs IE speackers
Kurds are geneticaly trealy different than they neighbours , why comparing them with Russians , nobody said Kurds are Slavic?

 

[Bodin]

The map is not a proof when it has no proper sources to back it up, I can make up my own man right now, does that make it evidence too?



I provide no evidence? How fitting lol, here you go:

http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf

The current I2a1b is haplogroup I1b-M26, which is the former designation for I2a2, it peaks in frequency and diversity in Southeast Europe.

No I2a1b is I P37 it peaks in southeastern Europe and it former designation is I2a2 Din and before that I1b and I M26 is now known as I2a1a and it peaks in Sardinia and some aerias in Spain . You realy have toubles with designations . I1b(XM26) in this paper means I1b ( Old designation for I2a1) without (X) M26 . This paper prove my point there is high I2a1b Din in SerboCroatian lands and it is lower in neighboring nonSerboCroatian lands - if it is not haplogroup that Serbs and Croats bringed on Balkans it would be very strange . It is also outdated - I2a1b Din cant be on Balkans since Paleolithe since it estimated age is 2.500 years .
You only argument is density of I2a1b Din on Balkans , but highest density of R1b is in west Europe - which doesnt mean it is there since Paleolithe

 

[Bodin]

That's Proto-Indo-Iranian, not Iranian, do you know anything about language families?

- Proto-Indo-European
-- Indo-European
--- Proto-Indo-Iranian
---- Indo-Iranian
----- Indo-Aryan / Iranian
------ Persian/Mede fall under the Iranian branch.

Do you know anything about genetic , archeology and history ? Scythians spocked Iranian , and they were direct descendants of Andronovo culture peoples , and direct ancestors of Slavs - look for DNA researches of Scythian graves

 

[Cobol19]

No I2a1b is I P37 it peaks in southeastern Europe and it former designation is I2a2 Din and before that I1b and I M26 is now known as I2a1a and it peaks in Sardinia and some aerias in Spain . You realy have toubles with designations . I1b(XM26) in this paper means I1b ( Old designation for I2a1) without (X) M26 . This paper prove my point there is high I2a1b Din in SerboCroatian lands and it is lower in neighboring nonSerboCroatian lands - if it is not haplogroup that Serbs and Croats bringed on Balkans it would be very strange . It is also outdated - I2a1b Din cant be on Balkans since Paleolithe since it estimated age is 2.500 years .
You only argument is density of I2a1b Din on Balkans , but highest density of R1b is in west Europe - which doesnt mean it is there since Paleolithe

Bodin, I'll make it very simple for you:

I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b

Look at the link again:

http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf

I1b (Which is I2a2) peaks in countries like Bosnia/Herzegovina, Croatia, Serbia, and Macedonia, the lineage that peaks in Sardinia is I2a1a.

The I* that exists in West Asia is probably mostly I2c and I2a1b, and it's not strange that it came from Southeast Europe since that's where it peaks.