Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

Btw, it has been widely accepted by the scholars that the Scythians, Sarmartians and maybe even the so called Cimmerians belonged to the nearby western neighbouring Iranic culture called the Srubna Culture, successor to the Yamna culture. So these people were not from the Andronovo horizon.

"The historical Cimmerians have been suggested as descended from this culture.The Srubna culture is succeeded by Scythians and Sarmatians in the 1st millennium BC, and by Khazars and Kipchaks in the first millennium AD."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srubna_culture
 
This Srubna Culture was a successor to the Yamna Culture.

But in turn this Yamna Culture was heavily influenced by the folks from Caucasus (and West Asia), Maikop culture and other west ASIAN cultures and subcultures. Both cultures were practically the same!

yamna.jpg
 
The heart Andronovo horizon is pink, Srubna (Yamna) is on the westside.

andronovoculture.jpg



Here is the map of 'OLD Europe'

oldeurope.jpg
 
Which haplogroups did have the Medes according to you?
Well if I would have to gues :
yDNA
I2a2-Din about 70%
I2*+I2a* about 3%
J2 about 8%
R1a about 10%
G2a about 3%
E1b1b about 6%
mthDNA
H about 50%
U about 20%
K about 10%
I about 15%
X2 and W about 5%
 
Yamna culture is proposed as Proto IE - where the R1a lived before parts moved to form Andronovo culture , and Srubna culture . Srubna culture is maybe protoCymmerian , but Scythians definetly come from east - Scythians lived from Black sea to Altay .
There is clear difference betwen Scythian and Sarmathian artefacts , burrials , customs , ... I dont know how could they be same
 
I dont know scientists that consider Scythians and Sarmathians are descendants of Srubna culture , they just replaced it on that aeria
 
I dont know scientists that consider Scythians and Sarmathians are descendants of Srubna culture , they just replaced it on that aeria
Yes, Scythians came from the Andronovo area, but my question is where from came the ancestors of these Scythians?
From the Iranian plateau or from the northern parts of Caucasus? If they were from Northern Caucasus, they would share the same ancestors as Srubna (Yamna) people.

I do also believe that when Scythians came and tried to replace the original Srubna folks (let call them the Cimmerians from now on), many so called Cimmerians fled to southern Caucasus and Northwest Asia (around Kurdistan) and many stayed in their home place and mixed with the Scythians.

Is it possible that the ancestors of the Sarmatians were the Scythians AND Cimmerians, the native population of Srubna culture.

So that makes Sarmatians native to northern parts of the Caucasus, in & around the Srubna area.

I think I2a-din was part of the Srubna people, and not of the Iranic speaking people that were from the Iranian plateau. So I2a-din in Kurdistan is maybe from North Caucasus, from the Srubna culture people...
 
I dont think so because of simple fact that Saramathian culture was very diferent from Scythian and Cymmerian , to be they descendant . And only reasonable explanation of Saramathian origins in Historic litereature is that they are descendants of Medians . Cymmerians and Scythians are both mainly R1a because they lived in place where R1a is since forming - Yamna - Srubno -Andronovo . Sarmathians show some simmilarities with Masagetae - they to have female rullers ( quen Tomirida -Tamara ; ida is Greek sufix) , on same place where Masagets lived has formed Alan confederation ( Alanliao in Chinese sources ) , so there could be also refuge of I2a2-Din .
 
I dont think so because of simple fact that Saramathian culture was very diferent from Scythian and Cymmerian , to be they descendant . And only reasonable explanation of Saramathian origins in Historic litereature is that they are descendants of Medians . Cymmerians and Scythians are both mainly R1a because they lived in place where R1a is since forming - Yamna - Srubno -Andronovo . Sarmathians show some simmilarities with Masagetae - they to have female rullers ( quen Tomirida -Tamara ; ida is Greek sufix) , on same place where Masagets lived has formed Alan confederation ( Alanliao in Chinese sources ) , so there could be also refuge of I2a2-Din .
Do you have pictures of their artefacts and other relics???

How do you know that the Sarmatians, Scythians and Cimmerians were so different to each other? All these folks were Iranic speakers, so I do really think their cultures had some similarities.
But it is also possible that the Cimmerians were not Iranic at all, but Europeans (I2a-din) who just spoke an Iranic language because they were influenced by other Iranic speakers from South Caucasus or Andronovo people.

And according to me it is not very likely that Medes were I2a-din folks. They didn't come from Europe. No way they came from Europe. They were native to the Iranian plateau and according to me they were mainly R1a, R2a, J and maybe even R1b folks with some T (was called K2)! There's very much R1b in Eastern (Iranian occupied) Kurdistan.

Plus there is for about 8% of R2a among Kurmanji Kurds (Northern Kurds) and also the same percentage in Tajikistan! This is very MUCH! Tajiks are linguistically and culturally related (very close) to the Kurds. Tajiks have very much of West Asian hg. J in them too. They found some R2a in the Trialeti culture sites, from about 3000 BCE. So R2a must be pre-Parthian in the Caucasus. But it's also possible that some R2a came to Kurdistan from Central Asia together with the Parthians.
 
Hungarians could be partualy Scythians , that later took Turkic culture.
Hier are some Sarmathian artefactsView attachment 5123 View attachment 5124 View attachment 5125

View attachment 5126
Medes comed from north with Persians around end of II millenium BC . It is posible that they were rulling cast over native population , but there is posibility they all come from North . Name Mada is Persian and mean " one in the midle " , Herodotus say they real name is Aryan - and Ossetians call themselves Iron ( Ossetians are partualy descendants of Sarmathians).
I2a2-Din come from Europe during LGM ( that was 20 thousand years ago ), long before formation of Medes so they are very much native.I2a2 definetly didnt spend LGM on Balkans - it is to young for that . Even I1 couldnt spend LGM in Scandinavia - in that time glaciers covered half Europe - tp Chezch and Slovakia - so I1 also had to spend LGM somwhere else and later move there .

R2a aroused somewhere in Northern Pakistan -where is found most of R2* . R2a is most comon in India( both Darvidians and Rajputi) and Sri Lanka (10-15%) and Pakistan and Tajikistan 8% . It is probably there very long time . In Alanic kingdom there was dark skined nation who lived in valeys in cities , they were there before Alans -probably R2a , some writers conect them with Indians.
Kurmanji Kurds in Grusia had 44% of R2a , and Kurmanji in Turkey 8% - that shows R2a was in Caucasus long before Kurds. It is also present in all south Caucasian populations.
It is realy hard to believe Cymerians were I2a2-Din - because Cymeria is R1a shelter during LGM , so they would have to be R1a
 
So Cymmeria is place of R1a refuge , and R1a is one that is spreading due to horsebriding, ironwork , not the one that gets its lands invaded by I2a2-Din, she is the one that carry IE languagues west and east .
Also Cymerians never lived North of Caucasus like Sarmathians , but North of Black sea ,so it would be more logical that Sarmathians are mixed Scythians and Caucasian population , which is ofcourse not the case.
imagesCAE36WFF.jpg imagesCAIJDAXK.jpg imagesCAVATVGX.jpg mač i nož.jpg mindj2.jpg
 
There is very important difference betwen Scythians and Sarmathians - Scythian womens were never wariors , and Sarmathians are , also Sarmathae had woman rulers .
ogrlica II vpne.jpg oružje.jpg
 
Hungarians could be partualy Scythians , that later took Turkic culture.
Hier are some Sarmathian artefactsView attachment 5123 View attachment 5124 View attachment 5125

View attachment 5126
Medes comed from north with Persians around end of II millenium BC . It is posible that they were rulling cast over native population , but there is posibility they all come from North . Name Mada is Persian and mean " one in the midle " , Herodotus say they real name is Aryan - and Ossetians call themselves Iron ( Ossetians are partualy descendants of Sarmathians).
I2a2-Din come from Europe during LGM ( that was 20 thousand years ago ), long before formation of Medes so they are very much native.I2a2 definetly didnt spend LGM on Balkans - it is to young for that . Even I1 couldnt spend LGM in Scandinavia - in that time glaciers covered half Europe - tp Chezch and Slovakia - so I1 also had to spend LGM somwhere else and later move there .

R2a aroused somewhere in Northern Pakistan -where is found most of R2* . R2a is most comon in India( both Darvidians and Rajputi) and Sri Lanka (10-15%) and Pakistan and Tajikistan 8% . It is probably there very long time . In Alanic kingdom there was dark skined nation who lived in valeys in cities , they were there before Alans -probably R2a , some writers conect them with Indians.
Kurmanji Kurds in Grusia had 44% of R2a , and Kurmanji in Turkey 8% - that shows R2a was in Caucasus long before Kurds. It is also present in all south Caucasian populations.
It is realy hard to believe Cymerians were I2a2-Din - because Cymeria is R1a shelter during LGM , so they would have to be R1a
? What do you mean by 20 thousand years ago?

Yes there's about 44% of R2a among Kurmanji Kurds in Georgia, but there live only 30,000 Kurds or maybe even less. These Kurds marry only with each other, because most of them are Yezidi. It's forbidden for the Yezidi Kurds to marry other religions. So 44% is due to the bottleneck effect. Kurmanji Kurds in Georgia are the same as Kurmanji Kurds in Turkey. Most Kurmanji in Georgia are originally from Turkish Kurdistan. But Kurmanji Kurds in Turkey converted into Islam, while some Yezidi Kurds remained Yezidi. So that's why I'm counting all Kurmanjis as 1 Kurdish tribe. And about 8% of all Kurmanjis is R2a.
Bartangis of Tajikistan have a high frequency of R2a at about 17%.

R2a is a sister clade of R1a, it is from the same ancestor R*. R2a and R1a are almost the same. And it's at least as old as R1a. R2a is also very high among some other non-IE populations in Caucasus.
R2a in the Caucasus is at least 5000 years old! Upper castes of india that are very rich of R1a have very much R2a and J2 too.

"Haplogroup R2a has a more significant presence in middle and upper castes."
http://mulnivasiorganiser.bamcef.org/?p=165

Very dark skinned folks in West Asia have the Elamites and the aboriginal Paleo-Caucasian-Hurrian Mesopotamian roots! It has nothing to do with R2a! But with hg. T, I think! There's a correlation between R1a, R2a and J in Iranic peoples.

I think that the Medes were R (R1a, R2a & R1b) and J (Caucasian J1 and J2) folks.
 
Scientists about Scythian warrior women:

"A team of archeologists investigating 2,400-year-old burial mounds built by the Scythian people on the upper River Don has found that five of 21 graves contained the bodies of young women with their weapons."

scyth03.jpg

http://www.fscclub.com/history/scyths-e.shtml
 
LGM 26.500 to 19. 000 years ago .
R2a aroused before 25.000 years and probably setled India separatly from R1a - folowing valeys of Ind and Gang . R1a become 18.500 years ago , it is present among North Indians and R2a in both North Indians and Dravidians - that mean it come before and separatly from R1a . There is no R2a with R1a in Europe >>>>Those haplogroups are not conected .
I was speacking about darker skined population of Central Asia not Elamites and Hurrians.
Dont Tajikistans speack Altaic languague ? What are similarities betwen they and Kurdic languague ? When I was in Tajikistan I also noticed some similarities in they and Serbian customs - eagle dance is realy similar to Herzegovinian and Montenegro dances , way they greating each other puting hand in friends hand and kising each others hand , they hats are very similar to Montenegro and Herzegovinian hats , they make kaymak like we ( but it is probably Turkic recepy , on Mongolian Kaymak mean " on the top" , but Sarmathians could also took it from them ) , way they boil they milk puting stone that was in fire in it - same like Serbians , on Pamir there is suprising amount of fair hair and light eyes, ... I believe I read some researches that show some I2a2-Din on Pamir . They could be conected with Pashtuns- Sorban tribes in Pakistan and Afganistan.
And if Medes were R and J how did I2a2-Din reached Kurdistan ?
 
Well if I would have to gues :
yDNA
I2a2-Din about 70%
I2*+I2a* about 3%
J2 about 8%
R1a about 10%
G2a about 3%
E1b1b about 6%
mthDNA
H about 50%
U about 20%
K about 10%
I about 15%
X2 and W about 5%

I2a2-Din about 70%? Why so small?
 
First two links in previous tag speack about 1 ) equality womans and mens in Avestan deities - Persia not Scythia 2) speack about Kurdic woman wariors not Scythians
Links in this tread - they founded woman warior graves on river Don from 2.400 years - in that time Don is border betwen Scythians and Sarmathians - so they are Sarmathian , because such graves are find eats of Don in that time , and west of Don when Sarmathians moved there . Is there any female wariors tombs west of Don before 200 year BC ?They called them Scythian because the whole aeria from China to Hungary is under Scythians , that probably confused you.Lots of scientist call Scythian all east of Panonian basin to Altai mountin , and that is somewhat corect because it all use to be part of Scythian state , but not all nations in Scythia were Scythians.
Herodotus clearly say that only Sarmathian womans are wariors ( he explain that by they Amazon ancestry ) , and Scythian are not , he say that Sarmathian women need to bring head of killed enemy to king if she won to get married , and he dont saying that for Scythian womens.
 

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