Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

[Goga]

Many Europeans in Central and Northeast Europe claim their ancestry. But those people were Euroasian and not entirely European and they spoke Iranic (Aryan) languages. But people in Europe don't speak Aryan languages.

I know nothing about these peoples, but somehow they got my attention and I got interested in these people, because many folks link them to the ancient West Asian Aryan Medes (Mitanni).
I'm a West ASIAN Kurd and Kurds in general claim their ancestry to the West ASIAN Iranic Medes. In Kurdistan there're many archaeological traces left of these Aryan folks and of their Zoroastrian and other Aryan religions. So I truly believe that Aryan ancestors of the Kurds were West Asian too.

If it is true that Scythians/Sarmatians were related to the Medes, then it's possible that these Scythians/Sarmatians were and admixture of North EUROPEAN and West ASIAN DNA, it is also possble that these folks had mostly West Asian DNA. Because I believe that the proto-Aryans came from West Asian/South Caucasus.

So I think that these Scythians/Sarmatians that live in North Caucasus were:

mostly R1a, I2a, J2a. With some Caucasian G2a, R1b, R2a, J1 & T and East European Q & N elements, but not so much.

What are your thoughts about these folks?

[Taranis]

Many Europeans in Central and Northeast Europe claim their ancestry. But those people were Euroasian and not entirely European and they spoke Iranic (Aryan) languages. But people in Europe don't speak Aryan languages.

It is true that people in Europe don't speak Iranic languages today, with possible exception of the Ossetians in the Caucasus (in fact, Ossetian is the last remaining survivor of the Scythian languages). However, I do not think that the Ossetians, with their very small population, are genetically representative of the ancient Scythians/Sarmatians. You have to consider that for a while (well, actually, many centuries!), large swathes of eastern Europe (basically all of southern Ukraine) was inhabited by Iranic tribes. There were even Iranic tribes in the eastern portions of the Pannonian basin (the Iazyges).

In my opinion, what seems likely is that most of these Sarmatians were absorbed by the Slavic peoples. This is also backed up linguistically as there are Iranic loans into Proto-Slavic. Regarding the genetic aspects, without a doubt they would have been major carriers of Haplogroup R1a. Considering the geographic area, I2a2 is also possible (not I2a1, for obvious reasons), but considering that the Haplogroup is probably native to Eastern Europe (well, at least, likely native since Neolithic times), I don't think it would be originally Scythian.

[Goga]

Yes, but I think Scythians/Sarmatians had very much J2a too. Look at Bulgaria. Many Bulgarians (like Ukrainians) think they are descendants of these Scytho-Sarmartians. And there's 20% of J2a in Bulgaria.

Many Iranic folks in Central Asia, like Tajiks from Tajikistan have very much R1a, R2a and J2a (West ASIAN) but not so much I2a-something.
Although the have much more R1a, maybe even much more than 50%. In some areas like around their capital Dushanbe, J2a and R2a are VERY dominant too.

So I truly believe that R1a (+R2a) and West ASIAN J2a were dominant in proto-Iranic tribes.

So maybe is J2a in Eastern European not from the Neolithic farmers but from Aryan tribes from West Asia.


Thank you for your reply.

[Goga]

[Milovan]

I believe the purest scythian blood is in baltic and east slavic countries (lithuania, russia, belarus etc). Look at autosomal dodecad charts, you'll see why I say this. I believe scythians and sarmatians were mostly R1a with a small amount of R1b. I do not believe they originally had any J, G or I in them at all. Compare y-dna with autosomal and you'll see where I get my ideas from.


The non-slavic scytho-sarmatian theory of bulgarians I believe to be 100% false. This comes from bulgarians who hate turks who do not want to admit the original bulgar tribe was of turkic origin. Either way bulgarians do have some scythian and sarmatian blood that comes from both the slavic and turkic components, as both slavs and turkic peoples all have partial scytho-sarmatian ancestry.

As for the Ossettes (Alani as they call themselves) they have absorbed much caucasus blood and traditions over time due to their location. Jaszones of hungary, the original serbs and croats (the tribes they take their names from) were also Alan tribes (Osprey publishing is a good source for this as it has been later quoted by almost all later sources). The polish also claim sarmatian ancestry, just look up "sarmatism".

As for a genetic connection to the medes I don't know. Scythians did cross the caucasus at one point warring with cimmerians, I think medes were a part of that story as well but I can't remember. I look forward to whatever you come up with though, I have a feeling it will be interesting.

[Goga]

I believe the purest scythian blood is in baltic and east slavic countries (lithuania, russia, belarus etc). Look at autosomal dodecad charts, you'll see why I say this. I believe scythians and sarmatians were mostly R1a with a small amount of R1b. I do not believe they originally had any J, G or I in them at all. Compare y-dna with autosomal and you'll see where I get my ideas from.

Ok. Thank you for your input!

But how do you explaine to me that Bulgarians have more J2a than R1a?

I think that Scytho-Sarmatians in Europe mixed with the native (non IE) folks of Europe, while Scytho-Sarmatians in Central Asia mixed with the native Central Asians, while Iranic tribes from West Asia remained in West Asia and mixed with other (non-Iranic) West Asians, mostly folks from the Caucasus (Hurrians).

That's how they grew apart. Every Iranic tribe got their own separate family but they all had the same roots and came from West Asia.

Northeast European and West Asian autosomal components are very close to each other.

But Iranic (ARYAN) tribes of West Asia stayed very close to their roots and the culture of their ancestors. They preserved their Aryan language and their 'Iranic' culture.

[Goga]

According to DODECAD Northeast European autosomal component is closer to the West Asian component than to the Southwest European component. So the North European and West Asian are the closest components to each other.

[Goga]

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/06/...s-on-west.html


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FFgv5Ekbf5...s/s1600/nj.png

[Asturrulumbo]

I know very little about DNA... But although ethnolinguistically, the Ossetes seem to be the best canditate for maintaining the Scythian "heritage", they have, as has been pointed out, been extremely influenced by their Caucasian neighbours over time, and it is thus quite probable that they retain little of what was the (ancient) Scythian DNA. For example, doing an etymological comparative of their mythological figures with the known Scythian deities, there seems to be little or no correspondence: On the contrary, they have correspondence with the mythological figures of the other (especially North) Caucasian peoples.

[Milovan]

Goga I did some digging for you in connection to scythians/sarmatians and the medes.
Osprey men at arms series (miltary history books) is the source, from 2 books- the sarmatians 600 bc- ad 450, it states AD 73 Alans raid parthia, media and defeat armenian king tiridates, AD 135 Alans raid media and armenia, but are repulsed from capadoccia by the roman governor arrian. 2nd book the scythians 700-300 bc- it states- early 7th century bc cimmerian and scythian conquest of urartu, scythian activity in the middle east recorded in assyrian texts, 670's bc scythian king partatua fights assyria, marries daughter of assyrian ruler esarhaddon, mid 7th century bc king madyes leads scythian expedition to borders of egypt, 652-626 bc period of scythian influence in media, 612 bc medes and scythians capture nineveh and destroy assyrian empire, late 7th century bc medes drive scythians north of caucasus into north pontic area, 310-309 bc scythians defeat caucasians at thatis river.
that is all the mentions of scythians and sarmatians in or south of the caucusus until the ossetians went in to the north caucusus.

that oughtta give you plenty to theorize about.


why do bulgarians have a lot of J2? they are in the balkans and absorbed many balkan peoples like thracians and others. neolithic farmers and phoenicians brought a lot of J into the balkans as well as other haplogroups.

you are looking at the wrong dodecad info, look at the admixture charts. they are more specific then what you posted. yes the entire middle east has some caucusus blood, you will see it in those admixture charts I speak of as "west asian" I believe it corresponds to y-dna hap G as it is highest in georgians and the caucusus. i believe hap J is "southwest asian" on dodecad charts, which is highest in saudi's and would be arab/semite bloodline

[Milovan]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l9oDPeNZPo...%2BKurd_12.png

autosomal test for Kurds

now autosomal charts that deal with many nations
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IHlgWAewnr...urasian_12.png

what says "east european" is obviously R1a
"west european" is R1b
I already explained "west asian" as G caucasus and "southwest asian" as semitic J
"mediteranean" equates to hap I

who said that this equates to that etc? me, it's my theory
I could be wrong but my research or rather me studying the research of others brings me to this conclusion



Asturrulumbo, as far as ossetian folklore I have noticed the same, it is nart sagas like the rest of the caucusus. scholars claim it does have ancient iranian influence but that the bulk of it is indigenous to the caucusus. as for their looks they look exactly like other caucasians and are low in R1a, I wait for autosomal info on them as I expect them to be just like most of the caucasus but with more of an east euro component then their neighbors.

[Milovan]

Goga you were talking about genetic distance I forgot to throw this in their for you
its from dodecad v3 and corresponds to bopth charts I posted previously

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Pw7x-HD7ON.../s1600/fst.png

what you were referring to as "north european" is old info, it has now been split into east and west european

[Taranis]

I believe the purest scythian blood is in baltic and east slavic countries (lithuania, russia, belarus etc). Look at autosomal dodecad charts, you'll see why I say this. I believe scythians and sarmatians were mostly R1a with a small amount of R1b. I do not believe they originally had any J, G or I in them at all. Compare y-dna with autosomal and you'll see where I get my ideas from.

Lithuania is historically very unlikely, primarily because Scythian tribes never moved this far north. Baltic tribes such as the Galindians and Sudovians inhabited the Baltic area since at least the 2nd century AD. I think that based on the historic distribution, the Scythians would have left their biggest marks in Ukraine and southern Russia.

[Sile]

Scythians where always said to be Hunnic peoples , some say modern hungarians. I think taransis is correct
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galindians

besides the area is heavily infestated with N1c1

[Goga]

Goga I did some digging for you in connection to scythians/sarmatians and the medes.
Osprey men at arms series (miltary history books) is the source, from 2 books- the sarmatians 600 bc- ad 450, it states AD 73 Alans raid parthia, media and defeat armenian king tiridates, AD 135 Alans raid media and armenia, but are repulsed from capadoccia by the roman governor arrian. 2nd book the scythians 700-300 bc- it states- early 7th century bc cimmerian and scythian conquest of urartu, scythian activity in the middle east recorded in assyrian texts, 670's bc scythian king partatua fights assyria, marries daughter of assyrian ruler esarhaddon, mid 7th century bc king madyes leads scythian expedition to borders of egypt, 652-626 bc period of scythian influence in media, 612 bc medes and scythians capture nineveh and destroy assyrian empire, late 7th century bc medes drive scythians north of caucasus into north pontic area, 310-309 bc scythians defeat caucasians at thatis river.
that is all the mentions of scythians and sarmatians in or south of the caucusus until the ossetians went in to the north caucusus.

that oughtta give you plenty to theorize about.


why do bulgarians have a lot of J2? they are in the balkans and absorbed many balkan peoples like thracians and others. neolithic farmers and phoenicians brought a lot of J into the balkans as well as other haplogroups.

you are looking at the wrong dodecad info, look at the admixture charts. they are more specific then what you posted. yes the entire middle east has some caucusus blood, you will see it in those admixture charts I speak of as "west asian" I believe it corresponds to y-dna hap G as it is highest in georgians and the caucusus. i believe hap J is "southwest asian" on dodecad charts, which is highest in saudi's and would be arab/semite bloodline

Thank you for you researchers about the Medes. And you might be right about the Bulgarians being Balkan folks.

But their biggest haplogroups are J2 and I2a, both 20%!

[Goga]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l9oDPeNZPo...%2BKurd_12.png

autosomal test for Kurds

now autosomal charts that deal with many nations
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IHlgWAewnr...urasian_12.png

what says "east european" is obviously R1a
"west european" is R1b
I already explained "west asian" as G caucasus and "southwest asian" as semitic J
"mediteranean" equates to hap I

who said that this equates to that etc? me, it's my theory
I could be wrong but my research or rather me studying the research of others brings me to this conclusion



Asturrulumbo, as far as ossetian folklore I have noticed the same, it is nart sagas like the rest of the caucusus. scholars claim it does have ancient iranian influence but that the bulk of it is indigenous to the caucusus. as for their looks they look exactly like other caucasians and are low in R1a, I wait for autosomal info on them as I expect them to be just like most of the caucasus but with more of an east euro component then their neighbors.

Long time I thought that J2 was somehow connected to the Semites too. But I think that I was wrong. And I think that you are wrong too. Georgians are 0.5% Southwest Asian, while they have 24.5% J2, 12% J1 and 4.5 E. They're 72.3 % West Asian.

So J2 and the oldest sub clades of J1 are only and MUST be West Asian.

Southwest Asian in Kurds is mainly because of Semitic sub clades of J1 and E, mainly from the Assyrians (and their kinsmen), but also from the Greeks and Arabs.

E and some sub clades of J1 are Semitic!

[Goga]

Goga you were talking about genetic distance I forgot to throw this in their for you
its from dodecad v3 and corresponds to bopth charts I posted previously

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Pw7x-HD7ON.../s1600/fst.png

what you were referring to as "north european" is old info, it has now been split into east and west european

Like I said many people believe that Scythians were mainly R1a people. But it is just impossible that they were exclusively R1a. Nobody is 'pure' and nobody was ever pure!

J2 and J1 in Kurds is partly from the Caucasian people and partly from the Iranic people.

Some J1 and E are from the Semitic speaking peoples, like the Assyrians. And some of it is from the Greeks.

As you can see the distance between East and West Europe = only 0.044.

The distance between East Europe and Mediterranean = 0.056
The distance between East Europe and West Asia = 0.055

The distance between West Europe and Mediterranean = 0.058
The distance between West Europe and West Asia = 0.048

The closest people to West Asia are West Europeans. Distance between them = only 0.048, much less than between West European and Mediterranean which = 0.058.

North European is CLOSER to West Asia than to Mediterranean.

[Goga]

The modern Iranic folks share mainly 3 haplogroups with each other: R1a, R2a and J2a (with some J1 and R1b) ! This is a fact. Scythians were Iranic speakers too. And it's just impossible that they were only R1a. So I incline to think that they were J2 and R2a too!

Scythians were EurASIAN. They were semi-nomands and lived both in Europe AND Asia. Like the Medes, who were semi-nomands too. When they left Kurdistan it was free, but when they tried to enter it again, it was already populated/occupied by the Assryians. That's why they destroyed the Assyrians together with the Scythians.

I think they fought always together with the Scythians because they shared the same roots. They (Scythians and Medes) fought never against each other!

They fought together against the Assyrians, Greeks etc. The Medes and Scythians were always together (like the USA & the UK)....

[Goga]

I know very little about DNA... But although ethnolinguistically, the Ossetes seem to be the best canditate for maintaining the Scythian "heritage", they have, as has been pointed out, been extremely influenced by their Caucasian neighbours over time, and it is thus quite probable that they retain little of what was the (ancient) Scythian DNA. For example, doing an etymological comparative of their mythological figures with the known Scythian deities, there seems to be little or no correspondence: On the contrary, they have correspondence with the mythological figures especially the other (especially North) Caucasian peoples.

Thank you very much for your input. But maybe the Scythians were North Caucasian folks too? And that their relatives - the Medes - lived in South Caucasus (- North Mesopotamia - Kurdistan).

[Goga]

And about the Bulgarians, I don't think 20% of J2 in them is from the Turks. First of all J2a was never Turkic, it is from West Asia. Ancient Turks were from Central Asian. If Bulagrians mixed with the 'modern' Ottoman Turks, they would never get so much J2 from them.

[spongetaro]

The modern Iranic folks share mainly 3 haplogroups with each other: R1a, R2a and J2a (with some J1 and R1b) ! This is a fact. Scythians were Iranic speakers too. And it's just impossible that they were only R1a. So I incline to think that they were J2 and R2a too!

There were people in Iran before the Irano-Aryan migrations. J2a can predates the IE speakers.

[spongetaro]

And about the Bulgarians, I don't think 20% of J2 in them is from the Turks. First of all J2a was never Turkic, it is from West Asia. Ancient Turks were from Central Asian. If Bulagrians mixed with the 'modern' Ottoman Turks, they would never get so much J2 from them.

J2 may have been brought from Anatolia to Bulgaria during the Varna culture. The shape of Varna skulls are typically "Mediterranean" according to archeologists.

[Goga]

There were people in Iran before the Irano-Aryan migrations. J2a can predates the IE speakers.

Yes, I do also believe that J2a predates. Iranic and Caucasian peoples.

J2a is West Asian, and that's why I think that West Asian Iranic folks like Kurds and Ossetians have 2 kind of J2a in them. 1 kind from Caucasian people and 1 from kind Iranic people.
This starting point justifies my thoughts that proto-Iranic (Aryan) people were from West Asia.

But I do also believe that J2a was an integral part of the ancient Iranic people too. There is J2a in Iranic speaking people in Central Asia, like Tajikistan. And there is even very much J2a among Brahmin cast in India!

I believe it's a modern myth to think that Scythians (and ancient Iranic people) were only R1a people. They found some R1a remnants of these tribes, true. But this doesn't mean they couldn't be also something else. It doesn't make any sense that a nation has only 1 haplogroup.
This would mean that Central Asians like Tajiks are more Iranic than Kurds are. Like some Iranic folks in Central Asia think. This is absolutely nonsense!

So I looked further and discovered that all Iranic speaking people share 3 haplogroups with each other: R1a, R2a and J2a.This is how I did come to the conclusion that the Scythians might be R1a, J2a and R2a folks too.

J2 may have been brought from Anatolia to Bulgaria during the Varna culture. The shape of Varna skulls are typically "Mediterranean" according to archeologists.

Thank you very much for this info. It's very interesting. But maybe those skulls were E or even I2a. Because Irano-Nordoid (Nordic-Iranian) and Caucasian skulls are 'bigger'/longer.

[Goga]

This autosomal dodecad graph is very recent and up to date. It's from June 4 2011!

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/06/...s-on-west.html

[Knovas]

Like I said many people believe that Scythians were mainly R1a people. But it is just impossible that they were exclusively R1a. Nobody is 'pure' and nobody was ever pure!

J2 and J1 in Kurds is partly from the Caucasian people and partly from the Iranic people.

Some J1 and E are from the Semitic speaking peoples, like the Assyrians. And some of it is from the Greeks.

As you can see the distance between East and West Europe = only 0.044.

The distance between East Europe and Mediterranean = 0.056
The distance between East Europe and West Asia = 0.055

The distance between West Europe and Mediterranean = 0.058
The distance between West Europe and West Asia = 0.048

The closest people to West Asia are West Europeans. Distance between them = only 0.048, much less than between West European and Mediterranean which = 0.058.

North European is CLOSER to West Asia than to Mediterranean.

You are right Goga. However, note there is a problem because K=12 also says West Asian is closer to Southwest Asian than the Mediterranean is. The tree you are using belongs to K=10, where it's TRUE that Southern European was closer to Southwest Asian, but with the new interpretation of Southern Europe (Mediterranean), this has changed.

What you say it makes sense. Just wanted to point there's some discrepancy between both runs. West asian here is 0.054 from Southwest Asian, while the Mediterranean is 0.057...a bit far in comparison.

I personally think Dienekes' should named Mediterranean in a different way (as for example Paleolithic European) to avoid this problem...very obvious while checking the distances. Or just separating Southern Europe in two diferentiated regions, the same as Northern Europe (Southwest and Southeast Europe).