Poll: What will Ötzi's Y-DNA haplogroup be?

[Taranis]

I don't think that Ötzi could be I1 or I2a2 (old I2b). These haplogroups are too northern in origin to be found at the Italo-Swiss border in the Chalcolithic.

As for F, I believe that the Neolithic LBK sample was a fake F, more likely to have been a J1. The study didn't test for M267. I was also misled to think that F still existed in the Caucasus, but it turned out that all the F was actually J1. In other words, if F* is almost inexistent today, I doubt that it ever was a major Neolithic haplogroup. It is just too old.

Hmm. I did not know that! It would explain quite a bit, though.

[sparkey]

Dienekes steals my thunder. His readers are putting G in third place behind I and R.

[Maciamo]

Dienekes steals my thunder. His readers are putting G in third place behind I and R.

Yes, and Dienekes himself voted for R1b ! Well, the guy still think that R1b colonised Europe during the Neolithic, even after ancient DNA from the Neolithic and early Bronze Age found no R1b at all in Germany or France.

[Taranis]

Yes, and Dienekes himself voted for R1b ! Well, the guy still think that R1b colonised Europe during the Neolithic, even after ancient DNA from the Neolithic and early Bronze Age found no R1b at all in Germany or France.

Yeah, Neolithic R1b, at this point is very, very unlikely. I think it's more likely that Ötzi turns up E1b than R1b (any variety of R1b, at that). And honestly, one trend I have noticed thus far, especially in regard for R1b more than anything else, is that Haplogroups turned out to be a lot younger than we expected. At this point, I must admit, I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that R1b didn't arrive in Western Europe not by the Chalcolithic, but really only by the Bronze Age.

[Knovas]

I still think my option is the correct one. However, don't understimate Dienekes'...perhaps he's right.

[Taranis]

I still think my option is the correct one. However, don't understimate Dienekes'...perhaps he's right.

Perhaps not.

G2a today has some of the highest concentrations in Europe in more mountainous areas. If R1b is Chalcolithic in age and indeed derived from the Beaker-Bell Culture, then it's main dispersal was via the sea via the main water ways and we would see exactly in the mountanous a better survival of the Neolithic population.

If R1b started out in dispersing from the Alps, I would expect some of the lowest ratios of G2a today there, and not one of the highest.

If R1b really only arrived in the Bronze Age, well, either scenarios are wrong anyways.

[Mzungu mchagga]

Does anyone think Dienekes has seen this thread here?

Anyways, mind me introducing a popular Austrian joke?
Q: What nationality was Ötzi?

A:
-They found brain in the mummy's head - Couldn't be an Austrian!
-They found tools he was carrying around - Couldn't be an Italian!
-The glacier was faster than him - Mmh, could have been Swizz, but...
-...he was wearing sandals in the high mountains - Easy, was German! LMAO

[Maciamo]

I still think my option is the correct one. However, don't understimate Dienekes'...perhaps he's right.

Dienekes also claimed for years that Neanderthals never interbred with Homo Sapiens. We now know that he was completely wrong. For the anecdote, I first seriously thought about the possibility of Europeans being a hybrid Neanderthal-Homo Sapiens race when I went to live in Japan 10 years ago. There I noticed that East Asian people had a very different skull shape from Europeans. Being quite dolichocephalic myself, with a prominent occipital bun, it started me how East Asian skulls fell so straight, at a 90° angle, from the top of their head to in the continuation of their neck, while many European (though not all) have a much more elongated and rounded skull at the back. It immediately reminded me of the shape of Neanderthal skulls. When looking at all the physical characteristics of Neanderthals, it suddenly dawned on me that East Asians didn't have any of these characteristics, while I had almost all of them (except the low skull and short stocky stature). I inspected and compared assiduously physical traits of people from all over the world for many years and became earnestly convinced that Europeans, and especially northern Europeans, inherited a sizeable part of their genome from Neanderthals. It came as a surprise to me that East Asians inherited almost as much Neanderthal DNA as Europeans. Perhaps did they select for different genes, less phenotypical ones. It's already obvious from the HLA that East Asians and Papuans inherited a bigger percentage of their immune system from Neanderthals and Denisovans than from Homo Sapiens.

[spongetaro]

Perhaps not.

G2a today has some of the highest concentrations in Europe in more mountainous areas. If R1b is Chalcolithic in age and indeed derived from the Beaker-Bell Culture, then it's main dispersal was via the sea via the main water ways and we would see exactly in the mountanous a better survival of the Neolithic population.

Not all G2a are neolithic. Some subclades are only found in Europe. G2a3b1a2 L497 makes 40 % of G2a in Europe and is found mainly around the Alpes

[Knovas]

Very interesting Maciamo. Of course, if Dienekes' thought what you say, he was completely wrong.

According to Interpretome I have 13 Neanderthal alleles. I'm a bit over the average European, but very far from the highest scores reported on Northern Europeans (26-27).

I specially have VERY fair skin and blue eyes, the rest probably nothing. But I recently saw a girl (she was on hollidays in Barcelona, surely Northern European) with almost all traits descrived. It was very curious, she looked incredibly rare (specially eye cavity), I've never seen something like this in my life.

[Wilhelm]

I inspected and compared assiduously physical traits of people from all over the world for many years and became earnestly convinced that Europeans, and especially northern Europeans, inherited a sizeable part of their genome from Neanderthals. It came as a surprise to me that East Asians inherited almost as much Neanderthal DNA as Europeans. Perhaps did they select for different genes, less phenotypical ones.

The difference in skull is evolutive, not necessarily intrebreeding. I've seen in some eastern-europeans these trait also, the back of the head is straight 90 degrees.

[Taranis]

Dienekes also claimed for years that Neanderthals never interbred with Homo Sapiens. We now know that he was completely wrong. For the anecdote, I first seriously thought about the possibility of Europeans being a hybrid Neanderthal-Homo Sapiens race when I went to live in Japan 10 years ago. There I noticed that East Asian people had a very different skull shape from Europeans. Being quite dolichocephalic myself, with a prominent occipital bun, it started me how East Asian skulls fell so straight, at a 90° angle, from the top of their head to in the continuation of their neck, while many European (though not all) have a much more elongated and rounded skull at the back. It immediately reminded me of the shape of Neanderthal skulls. When looking at all the physical characteristics of Neanderthals, it suddenly dawned on me that East Asians didn't have any of these characteristics, while I had almost all of them (except the low skull and short stocky stature). I inspected and compared assiduously physical traits of people from all over the world for many years and became earnestly convinced that Europeans, and especially northern Europeans, inherited a sizeable part of their genome from Neanderthals. It came as a surprise to me that East Asians inherited almost as much Neanderthal DNA as Europeans. Perhaps did they select for different genes, less phenotypical ones. It's already obvious from the HLA that East Asians and Papuans inherited a bigger percentage of their immune system from Neanderthals and Denisovans than from Homo Sapiens.

I think the bigger surprise was something else: many people (including myself) thought that if there was interbreeding between Neanderthals and Homo sapiens, it would have happened between the Neanderthals and the first "modern" humans that arrived into Europe in the Paleolithic. However, instead it turns out that the interbreeding already occured during humanity's initial "breakout" of Africa, and that basically the entire non-subsaharan-African population carries some Neanderthal DNA with them.

[Asturrulumbo]

Very interesting Maciamo. Of course, if Dienekes' thought what you say, he was completely wrong.

According to Interpretome I have 13 Neanderthal alleles. I'm a bit over the average European, but very far from the highest scores reported on Northern Europeans (26-27).

I specially have VERY fair skin and blue eyes, the rest probably nothing. But I recently saw a girl (she was on hollidays in Barcelona, surely Northern European) with almost all traits descrived. It was very curious, she looked incredibly rare (specially eye cavity), I've never seen something like this in my life.

Now that theme springs up, just a small question: When (if ever) did it become biologically impossible/unlikely for Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals to interbreed?

[Knovas]

Since Cromagnons entered Europe it was impossible not to interbreed with Neanderthals, because the last ones were surely the first inhabitants of Europe. However, Neanderthals should appear less in number at some point, and they were completely absorbed.

I think that's the simple summary.

[Bodin]

e1b

i guess this is my one and only chance to get some rep.

I would give you some reputation

[Bodin]

No I dont think E1b1b has yet reached Europe by that time , but I would give you rep for try

[Asturrulumbo]

I'll be adventurous and say that he probably wasn't G or E, because what would a person carrying a gene associated with sedentary agriculturalists be doing around the Alps, much more suited for pastoralism? I say it's I, R1b or maybe even R1a (if the Indo-Europeans had reached that region by then)
Edit: Now then, if the theory that G2a was brought to Europe by pastoralists is correct, then G2a would be quite possible... However, wouldn't the fact that G2a has been found in LBK (a quite sedentary culture) individuals actually deter the G2a pastoralist hypothesis?

[Maciamo]

I'll be adventurous and say that he probably wasn't G or E, because what would a person carrying a gene associated with sedentary agriculturalists be doing around the Alps, much more suited for pastoralism? I say it's I, R1b or maybe even R1a (if the Indo-Europeans had reached that region by then)
Edit: Now then, if the theory that G2a was brought to Europe by pastoralists is correct, then G2a would be quite possible... However, wouldn't the fact that G2a has been found in LBK (a quite sedentary culture) individuals actually deter the G2a pastoralist hypothesis?

Good point. However, it is a common misconception that early farmers were sedentary folks. Neolithic agriculture was very basic and served as a additional means of subsistence beside other more traditional ways of feeding oneself, like hunting and gathering. Then, the Neolithic really started with domestication, not agriculture, and the first domesticates came from the Caucasus and northern Mesopotamia, where haplogroup G2a and J1 are the most common. In other words, Neolithic farmers were probably more goat and cattle herders, who still hunted regularly and grew some crops on the side to complement their diet. I now think that the LBK folks came from that region in eastern Anatolia/south Caucasus where animal domestication originated and were a blend of G2a and J1 people, perhaps including J2 people too. E1b1b and T would have come directly from the Levant through a Mediterranean route passing by Greece and Italy. The problem with Ötzi is that he lived at the limit of two distinct Neolithic routes : the Danubian (LBK) and Mediterranean (Terramare) ones.

As for R1a, I think that an R1a person would have carried bronze weapons or tools, rather than copper ones at that time.

[Maciamo]

The difference in skull is evolutive, not necessarily intrebreeding. I've seen in some eastern-europeans these trait also, the back of the head is straight 90 degrees.

Indeed, I noticed that among quite a few Polish people too. But Eastern Europeans may have inherited some genes from Siberians or Central Asians in this regard.

[Maciamo]

I think the bigger surprise was something else: many people (including myself) thought that if there was interbreeding between Neanderthals and Homo sapiens, it would have happened between the Neanderthals and the first "modern" humans that arrived into Europe in the Paleolithic. However, instead it turns out that the interbreeding already occured during humanity's initial "breakout" of Africa, and that basically the entire non-subsaharan-African population carries some Neanderthal DNA with them.

I always said that Neanderthals probably interbred with Homo Sapiens in the Middle East and Central Asia at least as much as they did in Europe (blond and red hair, for instance, probably came to Europe with the R1a and R1b people, who originated from Central Asia). I think that fair skin could very well have come from Neanderthal, which is why it is found in all Eurasia (except South India). Note that the only dark-skinned people outside Africa (Dravidians, Aboriginal Australians) are those that presumably descend from the first wave out of Africa 60-70,000 years ago (probably haplogroup C and D), following the coast of South Asia as far Australia. East Asian hg C and D would have been autosomally influenced by the Denisovans or later Homo Sapiens incomers, which explains why they also have white skin and are nearly undistinguishable from hg N, O or Q people physically.

[Wilhelm]

The genes responsible for white skin in europeans is different than that of east-asians, meaning that in the latter the process of lightening skintone has followed a different path

[Bodin]

Skin have to lighten in colder aerias - due to lack of sun , arose deficiency of vitamin D , and that lead to serious twisting of bouns , and to crepling of body . Whiter skin is more eficient gatherer of vitamin D than dark one .
But for light eyes and hair I would say are inhereted from Neanderthals . Mongolic peoples have quite diferent adaptations to cold conditions - more fat under eye covers , broad face and splatered nose are bether for frost , small eyes help against sun reflection from snow - so eyes are not damaged , smaller body due to faster metebolism ,... This is the way Homo Sapiens would adapt to cold , and European adaptations are diferent , but never the less eficient

[Asturrulumbo]

Good point. However, it is a common misconception that early farmers were sedentary folks. Neolithic agriculture was very basic and served as a additional means of subsistence beside other more traditional ways of feeding oneself, like hunting and gathering. Then, the Neolithic really started with domestication, not agriculture, and the first domesticates came from the Caucasus and northern Mesopotamia, where haplogroup G2a and J1 are the most common. In other words, Neolithic farmers were probably more goat and cattle herders, who still hunted regularly and grew some crops on the side to complement their diet. I now think that the LBK folks came from that region in eastern Anatolia/south Caucasus where animal domestication originated and were a blend of G2a and J1 people, perhaps including J2 people too.

This applies to many Neolithic cultures, but LBK was much more agriculture-oriented, at least according to what I have read in Wikipedia:
"The LBK people settled on fluvial terraces and in the proximities of rivers. They were quick to identify regions of fertile loess. On it they raised a distinctive assemblage of crops and associated weeds in small plots, an economy that Gimbutas called a "garden type of civilization." The difference between a crop and a weed in LBK contexts is the frequency. (...) The LBK people were stock-raisers as well, with cattle favoured, though goats and swine are also recorded. Like farmers today, they may have used the better grain for themselves and the lower grades for the animals. The ubiquitous dogs are present here too, but scantly. Substantial wild faunal remains are found. The LBK supplemented their diets by hunting deer and wild boar in the open forests of Europe as it was then."
So it seems to me that while they did hunt, it was not as important as to other Neolithic cultures; and though they did have domestic animals, cattle (as opposed to sheep or goats, more suited for mountainous places and especially nomadic pastoralism) was the most widespread. And while I do not debate the Anatollian/Caucasian theory for the origin of G2a, it seems to me that at least in Western/Central Europe they developed much more agricultural traditions (possibly influenced by the "Old European" cultures of the Balkans?). But of course, if such is the case, why then do the greatest G2a frequencies appear in mountainous areas? A possible answer to this, in my opinion, could be that many of them retreated to the highlands during the Indo-European expansions, where they developed a more pastoral culture and economy.

The problem with Ötzi is that he lived at the limit of two distinct Neolithic routes : the Danubian (LBK) and Mediterranean (Terramare) ones.

But wasn't Terramare a Bronze Age culture?

As for R1a, I think that an R1a person would have carried bronze weapons or tools, rather than copper ones at that time.

That's why I considered it the most improbable (among many other things).

[Maciamo]

This applies to many Neolithic cultures, but LBK was much more agriculture-oriented, at least according to what I have read in Wikipedia:

I don't know if LBK was more agriculture oriented, but I was referring to all Neolithic cultures in Europe.

But wasn't Terramare a Bronze Age culture?

Sorry, I wrote too fast. I meant Printed Cardium Pottery of course.

[geiserich]

I think ötzi is G2a the prominent haplogroup of Neolithic farmers.

If it would be R1b, it would be very interesting because we could date the specific subclade more precisely.