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View Poll Results: What will Ötzi's Y-DNA haplogroup be?

Voters
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  • E1b

    1 4.35%
  • F

    0 0%
  • G2a

    12 52.17%
  • I1

    1 4.35%
  • I2a1 (old I2a)

    2 8.70%
  • I2a2 (old I2b)

    1 4.35%
  • I2b-ADR

    0 0%
  • I2c

    0 0%
  • I2*

    0 0%
  • I* or IJ

    2 8.70%
  • J1

    0 0%
  • J2

    0 0%
  • L

    0 0%
  • N1c1

    0 0%
  • Q

    0 0%
  • R1a

    0 0%
  • R1b L11-

    0 0%
  • R1b L11+

    4 17.39%
  • T

    0 0%
  • other

    0 0%
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Thread: Poll: What will Ötzi's Y-DNA haplogroup be?

  1. #51
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Ötzi's case is definitely interesting because the place and time he lived was a major crossroad in European prehistory. Not only are the Alps the geographic limit between two distinct Neolithic routes, the period in which Ötzi lived coincides with various contemporary Neolithic, Chacolithic and early Bronze Age cultures in Europe. It was a time of change, a three-speed Europe. 5300 years ago, the Neolithic movement had barely reached northern Europe, the Chalcolithic was well implanted in the Danubian basin (around modern Romania, northern Bulgaria and Serbia) while the Bronze Age ha just started in the Caucasus (Maykop culture).

    I just found out on the website of the South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology that Ötzi probably belonged to the Remedello culture from Northern Italy. This was one of the first Copper Age culture to reach the Italian peninsula, and indeed Ötzi did carry a copper axe. If such is the case, it would mean that Ötzi was not related to the Neolithic inhabitants of Italy (Printed Cardium Pottery), and therefore his chances of belonging to haplogroup I2a1 is close to nil, while I would lower a bit my previsions for G2a. Ötzi would have been related to the cultures of "Old Europe" (Linear Pottery, Lengyel, Black-and-Grey Pottery, etc.). If anything it makes it even more interesting, although we already have three samples from the LBK culture, and these were two G2a and one individual that could be F or IJ or J1 (probably J1). I still believe that haplogroups E1b1b, T, J2, R1b1c (V88) were all part of the Neolithic and/or Chalcolithic migrants to Europe. In other words, Ötzi could be G2a, J1, E1b1b, T, J2, R1b1c/R1b1b. Add to this I2a2, which I also believe to be native to Southeast Europe rather than a late arrival with the Slavic migrations. That's a lot of possibilities.

    Considering that Ötzi is brachycephalic, I would lower my previsions for haplogroup E1b1b, which usually correlate with dolichocephalic phenotypes. I expect J2 and R1b-ht35 to have spread later than the Chalcolithic, probably more during the Bronze and Iron Ages (perhaps along with E1b1b during the Greco-Roman expansions).

    I would be extremely surprised if Ötzi was I1, I2b, L, N, Q, R1a or R1b1b2a1. I also don't expect him to be I2a1.

    The more likely haplogroups remaining are (in order of likelihood) : G2a, I2a2, R1b1c, J1, and T.

    The less likely, but still possible haplogroups : E1b1b, R1b-ht35, J2.
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  2. #52
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    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
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    The rumor mill is saying G2a4. G2a would be unsurprising as everybody has said, although G2a3 would be more expected than G2a4.

    From a comment on Dienekes' blog:

    Quote Originally Posted by marcantonio
    According to an interview with an austrian scientist Ötzi is G2a4!

    Link?

    The source of this information is an interview with Dr. Eduard Egarter-Vigl, Head of Conservation and Assistant to research projects of the Archaeological Museum in Bozen, given in a documentary on Ötzi broadcast by 3sat on 10th august 2011. See also the following link for more info on this documentary:
    http://www.3sat.de/page/?source=/dok...967/index.html
    But unless you speak German this link will be of no interest!
    I have no idea whether or not this commenter is a reliable source. But there you go.

    Those who voted G2a before this are:


    That would be a lot of people to give +rep to! Oh well. Let's wait and see if the rumor is right before handing out the reputation.

  3. #53
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Very interesting. I know the region and the new Ötzi reconstruction reminds me of some Vinschger (Val Venosta = upper Etsch valley) people. Today local history: The Vinschgau Valley was inhabited mainly by Rhaeto-Romanic speaking people until some centuries ago. After the Aleman (from North and Switzerland) church and nobility dominance was to long, the prevalent language changed to german. The people (especially of the upper valley near lake Reschen) compared to nearby populations is still featured with more dark hair (see pics 1, 2, 3, 4, 5). But remind that by isotopic composition of his tooth enamel Ötzi probably could have lived his early live mainly in the Isarcus valley (Eisack, Isarco) near Brixen. Eisack-Valley was flooded with germanic people (Bavaria, much more light hair nowadays). The Raetics in their pre-roman-time could have been connected with the Etruscan culture.

    I think the Y-DNA of Ötzi will maybe be overweighted after the finding out.

    According to an interview with an austrian scientist Ötzi is G2a4! The source of this information is an interview with Dr. Eduard Egarter-Vigl, Head of Conservation and Assistant to research projects of the Archaeological Museum in Bozen, given in a documentary on Ötzi broadcast by 3sat on 10th august 2011.
    If you understand german you can view this documentary today on BR-alpha (a southern german tv receivable on Astra-SAT). See here for more info on the docu beginning at 9 PM: Ötzi, ein Archäologie-Krimi von Christiane Sprachmann.

    Dr. Egarter-Vigl was the local forensic crime investigation leader of South Tyrol and involved for years with the Ötzi case. I think he is more into traditional forensic then DNA, but as head of the investigation, has many insights. Is there a link to the research team or project of Ötzi-DNA?

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarTyro View Post
    Very interesting. I know the region and the new Ötzi reconstruction reminds me of some Vinschger (Val Venosta = upper Etsch valley) people. Today local history: The Vinschgau Valley was inhabited mainly by Rhaeto-Romanic speaking people until some centuries ago. After the Aleman (from North and Switzerland) church and nobility dominance was to long, the prevalent language changed to german. The people (especially of the upper valley near lake Reschen) compared to nearby populations is still featured with more dark hair (see pics 1, 2, 3, 4, 5). But remind that by isotopic composition of his tooth enamel Ötzi probably could have lived his early live mainly in the Isarcus valley (Eisack, Isarco) near Brixen. Eisack-Valley was flooded with germanic people (Bavaria, much more light hair nowadays). The Raetics in their pre-roman-time could have been connected with the Etruscan culture.

    I think the Y-DNA of Ötzi will maybe be overweighted after the finding out.

    If you understand german you can view this documentary today on BR-alpha (a southern german tv receivable on Astra-SAT). See here for more info on the docu beginning at 9 PM: Ötzi, ein Archäologie-Krimi von Christiane Sprachmann.

    Dr. Egarter-Vigl was the local forensic crime investigation leader of South Tyrol and involved for years with the Ötzi case. I think he is more into traditional forensic then DNA, but as head of the investigation, has many insights. Is there a link to the research team or project of Ötzi-DNA?
    There where no etruscans in Italy at the time of Otzi.
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

  5. #55
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    There where no etruscans in Italy at the time of Otzi.
    I know, I said "pre-roman-time" to describe that nowadays people in the Vinschgau Valley (and the whole Tyrol region) could be a mix of Raetics (maybe in parts descendants from Ötzi's culture), Celts, Etruscans, Venetians, Romans and Germanic tribes (Bavarians, Alemans, Langobards). I hope the scientists make some comparison to past studies like "Genetic Structure in Contemporary South Tyrolean Isolated Populations Revealed by Analysis of Y-Chromosome, mtDNA, and Alu Polymorphisms". Because people in some Alps Valleys could have very small influence by the last millennias migration waves, there can be a link to Ötzi or other ancient DNA.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    The rumor mill is saying G2a4. G2a would be unsurprising as everybody has said, although G2a3 would be more expected than G2a4.

    From a comment on Dienekes' blog:



    I have no idea whether or not this commenter is a reliable source. But there you go.

    Those who voted G2a before this are:


    That would be a lot of people to give +rep to! Oh well. Let's wait and see if the rumor is right before handing out the reputation.
    You can ad me to this list. I chose this too on Dienekes board.

    Here is the Interview.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRXiwWpmSbs
    Last edited by Alan; 15-09-11 at 06:13.

  7. #57
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    I have closed the poll now that we have the confirmation that Ötzi was G2a. Congrats to the 50% of you who guessed correctly like me. Only 18% of the visitors on Dienekes' blog chose haplogroup G (out of 502 people !). Not many people guessed right on DNA-forums.org either.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarTyro View Post
    I know, I said "pre-roman-time" to describe that nowadays people in the Vinschgau Valley (and the whole Tyrol region) could be a mix of Raetics (maybe in parts descendants from Ötzi's culture), Celts, Etruscans, Venetians, Romans and Germanic tribes (Bavarians, Alemans, Langobards). I hope the scientists make some comparison to past studies like "Genetic Structure in Contemporary South Tyrolean Isolated Populations Revealed by Analysis of Y-Chromosome, mtDNA, and Alu Polymorphisms". Because people in some Alps Valleys could have very small influence by the last millennias migration waves, there can be a link to Ötzi or other ancient DNA.

    This is what I wrote on the 22 July 2011

    otzi is mtdna of K10 and his dna is as you said G2a. This is because he was found in the middle of the Raeti/Rhaeti tribes of Venostes and Vennonete who resided in the modern region of Veneto in the alps.
    The raeti are , when I read infomation once, 64% G2a

    hmmm word association - Venotes & Vennonetes = Veneti ( Venetic) , in the Veneto.

    Are the veneti really raeti or


    To finalise, Otzi would not have been a celt or etruscan or venetic or roman or german or bavarian or anything else........he was purely a Raeti person speaking a raetic language and living in raeti lands. We do not have any better than this simplified version.

    I really detest these modern theories using modern national borders for propaganda purposes which distort history.

  9. #59
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    G2a was a very likely option, although I voted for another one. It's time to see if comes out more detailed information about him.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    To finalise, Otzi would not have been a celt or etruscan or venetic or roman or german or bavarian or anything else........he was purely a Raeti person speaking a raetic language and living in raeti lands. We do not have any better than this simplified version.
    Sorry, no. We have been there before. The "Raeti" probably were not a homogenous group (the term "Raeti" is very likely to be an exonym!), and the "Raeti" language found in the so-called "Raetic" inscriptions was a language related with Etruscan. The Etruscans were not native to Europe. Whatever language Ötzi spoke, it was unrelated to any of the languages spoken there later.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Sorry, no. We have been there before. The "Raeti" probably were not a homogenous group (the term "Raeti" is very likely to be an exonym!), and the "Raeti" language found in the so-called "Raetic" inscriptions was a language related with Etruscan. The Etruscans were not native to Europe. Whatever language Ötzi spoke, it was unrelated to any of the languages spoken there later.
    As I stated before, the etruscans arrived around 800-900 BC , the raeti ( or whatever they where called then ) where already there in the alps, they spoke a language, it was not etruscan and I do not know what it was, ......I call it raeti because it was raeti lands in the bronze age.
    If you can advise me on what was the true language at the time of Otzi, then we can move on. But he did not speak any kind of etruscan , and I am not saying that you said this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    As I stated before, the etruscans arrived around 800-900 BC , the raeti ( or whatever they where called then ) where already there in the alps, they spoke a language, it was not etruscan and I do not know what it was, ......I call it raeti because it was raeti lands in the bronze age.
    If you can advise me on what was the true language at the time of Otzi, then we can move on. But he did not speak any kind of etruscan , and I am not saying that you said this.
    What I'm trying to say is that the "Raeti" are an artificial, heterogenous grouping:

    - The Lepontii were a Celtic people.
    - The Vindelici were inconsistely also listed as Raetians (by some authors) and they too were Celtic.
    - Some of the tribes (Breuni, Genaunes) are considered Illyrians.

    If you look at this, you can quickly get the question of who the "real" Raetians were. In any case I think that any of the languages spoken in the area in the 1st century BC were unrelated to whatever language Ötzi spoke 3000 years earlier.

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    Ötzi's Y-DNA and other ancient DNA results this year are all confirming several of my theories. I wrote 2 years ago that G2a came to Europe in several waves :

    - a first one with Neolithic goat and cattle herders from the Caucasus and Anatolia
    - a second one with the diffusion of metallurgy.
    - a third one (G2a3b1a) came alongside R1b1b2a1 with the Indo-European migrations during the Bronze Age

    I wrote in February 2010 that G2a was linked to the diffusion of goat and sheep herding in the Neolithic via the Cardium Pottery culture. This was confirmed in May 2011 by Lacan et al. (Neolithic G2a in Treilles, France).

    In the same thread in February 2010, I wrote that G2a3b1a (the most common subclade of G in Europe) came to Europe with R1b1b2a during the Bronze Age. So far, no R1b1b2a or G2a3b1a has been found in any Neolithic or Copper Age site, which also confirms this theory.

    Ötzi confirms that G2a was indeed linked to early metallurgy, as I thought, but that the Copper Age cultures of Old Europe were not related to the latter wave of G2a3b1a and R1b1b2a.

    Ötzi's G2a4 is very rare in Europe nowadays, and his mtDNA K1ö is all but extinct. Other Neolithic mtDNA samples revealed a much higher prevalence of haplogroup N1a and X2 (Neolithic Germany and France) than in the modern population. Both of these haplogroups are now found especially around the Caucasus, where Y-haplogroup G2a is also the most prevalent. This confirms a strong genetic discontinuity between Neolithic/Chalcolithic Europeans and modern Europeans. So much is necessary to explain that R1b1b2a arrived quite late (Bronze Age) in Europe and replaced most of the older population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    This is what I wrote on the 22 July 2011

    [B]otzi is mtdna of K10 and his dna is as you said G2a. This is because he was found in the middle of the Raeti/Rhaeti tribes of Venostes and Vennonete who resided in the modern region of Veneto in the alps.
    The raeti are , when I read infomation once, 64% G2a
    I wouldn't try to link Ötzi to any modern population. Even if there still parts of the Alps with a high percentage of G2a, there is no evidence that most or even any of it is G2a4. If it is G2a3b1, then it has absolutely nothing to do with Ötzi. Being from a Danubian Copper Age culture, I expect Ötzi's descendants, if any, to be found in isolated mountainous areas close to the Danube (meaning in the northern part of the Alps or in the Carpathians).

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    Thanks Sparkey, Maciamo and others, it was fun to investigate, guess and see there results coming. I wish we had more Otzis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have closed the poll now that we have the confirmation that Ötzi was G2a. Congrats to the 50% of you who guessed correctly like me. Only 18% of the visitors on Dienekes' blog chose haplogroup G (out of 502 people !). Not many people guessed right on DNA-forums.org either.
    I guessed G in all three places.

    Is there any way to automate reputation points for the "winners" by the way, Maciamo? Otherwise I'm just going to give the winners +rep on some of my favorite posts of theirs once G2a4 is reconfirmed in an official release.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have closed the poll now that we have the confirmation that Ötzi was G2a. Congrats to the 50% of you who guessed correctly like me. Only 18% of the visitors on Dienekes' blog chose haplogroup G (out of 502 people !). Not many people guessed right on DNA-forums.org either.
    So to scientifically prove which genetic anthropology community has the biggest brains and greatest psychic powers, I tallied the number of correct and incorrect answers from DNA Forums and Forum Biodiversity as well. I was generous and gave it to all the people who said "I2 or G2" or similar. The results:

    DNA Forums
    Correct: 6 out of 20, or 30%
    Incorrect answers:
    E1b: 1
    G1: 1
    I1: 1
    I2b-ADR: 1
    J2: 1
    L: 1
    R1a: 1
    R1b: 6
    R2: 1

    Forum Biodiversity:
    Correct: 4 out of 13, or 31%
    Incorrect answers:
    G1: 1
    G2a3: 1
    I: 1
    I1: 1
    I2c: 1
    R1b: 3
    T: 1

    The final rankings:
    1. Eupedia, 52%
    2. Forum Biodiversity, 31%
    3. DNA Forums, 30%
    4. Dienekes Blog, 18%

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I guessed G in all three places.

    Is there any way to automate reputation points for the "winners" by the way, Maciamo? Otherwise I'm just going to give the winners +rep on some of my favorite posts of theirs once G2a4 is reconfirmed in an official release.
    There is no automatic way to give rep points for choosing the right answer at a poll. You will have to give rep points to each member one by one. I will do it too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I wouldn't try to link Ötzi to any modern population. Even if there still parts of the Alps with a high percentage of G2a, there is no evidence that most or even any of it is G2a4. If it is G2a3b1, then it has absolutely nothing to do with Ötzi. Being from a Danubian Copper Age culture, I expect Ötzi's descendants, if any, to be found in isolated mountainous areas close to the Danube (meaning in the northern part of the Alps or in the Carpathians).
    Well, according to the video announcing the y dna result, it seems they spent a good amount of time looking in the SudTirol, so perhaps they did find something, although given the rarity of G2a4 (at least so far) it is probably a long shot. In the current results, there seem to be a few British men, a family group in Baden-Wurttemberg, a few in Italy, and a few from Morocco, who may be Sephardis. None in eastern Europe or the Balkans, although I will grant that they are not highly tested areas. However, there does seem to be a Mediterranean look to it. The researcher specifically, for example, mentioned Sardinia.

    Given that one of the first copper mines in Europe was in Liguria (an area high in G), Otzi's culture is connected to the Remedello culture, and the ore for his ax came from Tuscany, I hope they also tested in those areas.

    As far as autosomal dna is concerned, I hope that they looked in the Passeiertal Valley in the Sud-Tirol. This man is, I think, a dead ringer for Otzi, except for the red hair. (That might come from the Bavarian populations that later moved into that valley.)
    http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/82...Hulton-Archive

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...e-mummy-oetzi/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, according to the video announcing the y dna result, it seems they spent a good amount of time looking in the SudTirol, so perhaps they did find something, although given the rarity of G2a4 (at least so far) it is probably a long shot. In the current results, there seem to be a few British men, a family group in Baden-Wurttemberg, a few in Italy, and a few from Morocco, who may be Sephardis. None in eastern Europe or the Balkans, although I will grant that they are not highly tested areas. However, there does seem to be a Mediterranean look to it. The researcher specifically, for example, mentioned Sardinia.

    Given that one of the first copper mines in Europe was in Liguria (an area high in G), Otzi's culture is connected to the Remedello culture, and the ore for his ax came from Tuscany, I hope they also tested in those areas.

    As far as autosomal dna is concerned, I hope that they looked in the Passeiertal Valley in the Sud-Tirol. This man is, I think, a dead ringer for Otzi, except for the red hair. (That might come from the Bavarian populations that later moved into that valley.)
    http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/82...Hulton-Archive

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...e-mummy-oetzi/
    well, they could have done a dna on the Ladini people in the alps of Veneto ( which is very close to where otzi was found ) and found these Ladini have 75% of g2a

    Sometimes, it makes you think what government involvements are there that prevents certain things being revealed!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As far as autosomal dna is concerned, I hope that they looked in the Passeiertal Valley in the Sud-Tirol. This man is, I think, a dead ringer for Otzi, except for the red hair. (That might come from the Bavarian populations that later moved into that valley.)
    http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/82...Hulton-Archive
    Thats indeed a good one! Maybe the Dutch artists had the same pic?!?

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    otzi on haplogroup G2a branch L91
    Last edited by Elaishousse; 28-11-18 at 00:31.

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    I am Spanish, and my haplogroup is G, it is not very common here, I read that this was the same haplogroup as Otzi. I recently created a post about my DNA testing, you are all invited :)

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    1 members found this post helpful.

    I was searching on another topic and found this information. Ötzi tattoos. I have been struck by parallel horizontal lines because because I started drawing with a pen in my own hand when I was a teenager, specifically, I usually paint two lines in parallel and sometimes I had also painted them on some slate. And one of my matches, a U.S.A. woman by mitochondrial DNA; we have in the friends section but we have never had, curious, the fact is that once on his facebook cover he had two parallel vertical stripes.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post

    I was searching on another topic and found this information. Ötzi tattoos. I have been struck by parallel horizontal lines because because I started drawing with a pen in my own hand when I was a teenager, specifically, I usually paint two lines in parallel and sometimes I had also painted them on some slate. And one of my matches, a U.S.A. woman by mitochondrial DNA; we have in the friends section but we have never had, curious, the fact is that once on his facebook cover he had two parallel vertical stripes.
    Ötzi’s Tattoos were meant to be therapeutic, not decorative. I Doubt that he made them Himself.
    He must have gone to the Witch-Doctor

    Many of his tattoos are located where there are signs of arthritis, old injuries, and holistic acupuncture points.

    I saw it on TV, lol :)
    a similar link:
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...man-180954035/

    Q-Matching with Ötzi the Iceman:


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