Poll: What will Ötzi's Y-DNA haplogroup be?

What will Ötzi's Y-DNA haplogroup be?

  • F

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I2b-ADR

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I2c

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I2*

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • J1

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • J2

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • L

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • N1c1

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Q

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • R1a

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • R1b L11-

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • T

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    23
I voted G2a. But here is my ranking of likelihood :

1) G2a
2) I2a1 (old I2a)
3) E1b1b
4) T
5) J2
6) I2c
7) J1
8) R1a
9) R1b1* or R1b1c
10) I2*
11) I* or IJ
12) F
13) L

I think it is impossible that Ötzi was R1b1b2. R1b is possible though, but only older subclades like R1b1 (P25) or R1b1c (V88), or conceivably even R1b1b*. I cannot imagine how he could be N1c1 or Q either.
 
Last edited:
I voted G2a. But here is my ranking of likelihood :

1) G2a
2) I2a1 (old I2a)
3) E1b1b
4) T
5) J2
6) I2c
7) J1
8) R1a
9) R1b1* or R1b1c
10) I2*
11) I* or IJ
12) F
13) L

I think it is impossible that Ötzi was R1b1b2. R1b is possible though, but only older subclades like R1b1 (P25) or R1b1c (V88), or conceivably even R1b1b*. I cannot imagine how he could be N1c1 or Q either.

I'll give a ranking a shot. I think that you importantly missed I2a2 and I2b and give too little credit to F:

1) G2a -- an obviously dominant Neolithic haplogroup
2) I2a1 (old I2a) -- another obviously dominant Neolithic haplogroup, especially in the West
3) I2c -- didn't apparently spread as fast as I2a1, but spread earlier than most Haplogroup I, and has a center of diversity close to Ötzi
4) F -- already seen in a Neolithic sample, could be a sign of things to come
5) I2a2 (old I2b) -- a later spread than I2a1 and probably a bit farther from Ötzi than I2c, but both are still within range
6) E1b -- still a big question mark, but Ötzi could possibly be our E1b breakthrough
7) J2 -- could be Neolithic, also raises questions
8) T -- ditto E1b, J2
9) J1 -- ditto E1b, J2, T
10) I2b-ADR -- probably too rare and poorly assimilated with farmers, but has a center of diversity not too far Southeast of Ötzi
11) R1b L11- -- could have feasibly spread into Europe before R1b L11+
12) R1a -- we're stretching R1a's range here, but I think it could have spread outside of Corded Ware early
13) R1b L11+ -- this would pretty much mean that Taranis, Maciamo, and I are wrong about R1b L11+, which, sure, is possible
14) I2* -- we'd have to theorize him to be an extinct branch of I2 for him to be I2*, which is now an empty set, although if he is an extinct branch of something, this may be most likely
15) I1 -- I1 clearly expanded far North of Ötzi after he lived, so he would pretty much have to be an extinct branch of it
16) I* or IJ -- another extinct branch possibility, probably too early for Ötzi
17) L -- we're very far outside of L's range, but it could represent early movement of it
18) Q -- ditto L
19) N1c1 -- ditto Q
 
Very well said, Sparkey. I must say, it would be fascinating if Ötzi would end up being our E1b breakthrough.
 
I don't think that Ötzi could be I1 or I2a2 (old I2b). These haplogroups are too northern in origin to be found at the Italo-Swiss border in the Chalcolithic.

As for F, I believe that the Neolithic LBK sample was a fake F, more likely to have been a J1. The study didn't test for M267. I was also misled to think that F still existed in the Caucasus, but it turned out that all the F was actually J1. In other words, if F* is almost inexistent today, I doubt that it ever was a major Neolithic haplogroup. It is just too old.
 
I don't think that Ötzi could be I1 or I2a2 (old I2b). These haplogroups are too northern in origin to be found at the Italo-Swiss border in the Chalcolithic.

As for F, I believe that the Neolithic LBK sample was a fake F, more likely to have been a J1. The study didn't test for M267. I was also misled to think that F still existed in the Caucasus, but it turned out that all the F was actually J1. In other words, if F* is almost inexistent today, I doubt that it ever was a major Neolithic haplogroup. It is just too old.

Hmm. I did not know that! It would explain quite a bit, though.
 
Dienekes steals my thunder. His readers are putting G in third place behind I and R.

Yes, and Dienekes himself voted for R1b ! Well, the guy still think that R1b colonised Europe during the Neolithic, even after ancient DNA from the Neolithic and early Bronze Age found no R1b at all in Germany or France.
 
Yes, and Dienekes himself voted for R1b ! Well, the guy still think that R1b colonised Europe during the Neolithic, even after ancient DNA from the Neolithic and early Bronze Age found no R1b at all in Germany or France.

Yeah, Neolithic R1b, at this point is very, very unlikely. I think it's more likely that Ötzi turns up E1b than R1b (any variety of R1b, at that). And honestly, one trend I have noticed thus far, especially in regard for R1b more than anything else, is that Haplogroups turned out to be a lot younger than we expected. At this point, I must admit, I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that R1b didn't arrive in Western Europe not by the Chalcolithic, but really only by the Bronze Age.
 
I still think my option is the correct one. However, don't understimate Dienekes'...perhaps he's right.
 
I still think my option is the correct one. However, don't understimate Dienekes'...perhaps he's right.

Perhaps not.

G2a today has some of the highest concentrations in Europe in more mountainous areas. If R1b is Chalcolithic in age and indeed derived from the Beaker-Bell Culture, then it's main dispersal was via the sea via the main water ways and we would see exactly in the mountanous a better survival of the Neolithic population.

If R1b started out in dispersing from the Alps, I would expect some of the lowest ratios of G2a today there, and not one of the highest.

If R1b really only arrived in the Bronze Age, well, either scenarios are wrong anyways.
 
Does anyone think Dienekes has seen this thread here? :grin:

Anyways, mind me introducing a popular Austrian joke?
Q: What nationality was Ötzi?

A:
-They found brain in the mummy's head - Couldn't be an Austrian!
-They found tools he was carrying around - Couldn't be an Italian!
-The glacier was faster than him - Mmh, could have been Swizz, but...
-...he was wearing sandals in the high mountains - Easy, was German! :nuts: LMAO
 
I still think my option is the correct one. However, don't understimate Dienekes'...perhaps he's right.

Dienekes also claimed for years that Neanderthals never interbred with Homo Sapiens. We now know that he was completely wrong. For the anecdote, I first seriously thought about the possibility of Europeans being a hybrid Neanderthal-Homo Sapiens race when I went to live in Japan 10 years ago. There I noticed that East Asian people had a very different skull shape from Europeans. Being quite dolichocephalic myself, with a prominent occipital bun, it started me how East Asian skulls fell so straight, at a 90° angle, from the top of their head to in the continuation of their neck, while many European (though not all) have a much more elongated and rounded skull at the back. It immediately reminded me of the shape of Neanderthal skulls. When looking at all the physical characteristics of Neanderthals, it suddenly dawned on me that East Asians didn't have any of these characteristics, while I had almost all of them (except the low skull and short stocky stature). I inspected and compared assiduously physical traits of people from all over the world for many years and became earnestly convinced that Europeans, and especially northern Europeans, inherited a sizeable part of their genome from Neanderthals. It came as a surprise to me that East Asians inherited almost as much Neanderthal DNA as Europeans. Perhaps did they select for different genes, less phenotypical ones. It's already obvious from the HLA that East Asians and Papuans inherited a bigger percentage of their immune system from Neanderthals and Denisovans than from Homo Sapiens.
 
Perhaps not.

G2a today has some of the highest concentrations in Europe in more mountainous areas. If R1b is Chalcolithic in age and indeed derived from the Beaker-Bell Culture, then it's main dispersal was via the sea via the main water ways and we would see exactly in the mountanous a better survival of the Neolithic population.


Not all G2a are neolithic. Some subclades are only found in Europe. G2a3b1a2 L497 makes 40 % of G2a in Europe and is found mainly around the Alpes
 
Very interesting Maciamo. Of course, if Dienekes' thought what you say, he was completely wrong.

According to Interpretome I have 13 Neanderthal alleles. I'm a bit over the average European, but very far from the highest scores reported on Northern Europeans (26-27).

I specially have VERY fair skin and blue eyes, the rest probably nothing. But I recently saw a girl (she was on hollidays in Barcelona, surely Northern European) with almost all traits descrived. It was very curious, she looked incredibly rare (specially eye cavity), I've never seen something like this in my life.
 
I inspected and compared assiduously physical traits of people from all over the world for many years and became earnestly convinced that Europeans, and especially northern Europeans, inherited a sizeable part of their genome from Neanderthals. It came as a surprise to me that East Asians inherited almost as much Neanderthal DNA as Europeans. Perhaps did they select for different genes, less phenotypical ones.
The difference in skull is evolutive, not necessarily intrebreeding. I've seen in some eastern-europeans these trait also, the back of the head is straight 90 degrees.
 
Dienekes also claimed for years that Neanderthals never interbred with Homo Sapiens. We now know that he was completely wrong. For the anecdote, I first seriously thought about the possibility of Europeans being a hybrid Neanderthal-Homo Sapiens race when I went to live in Japan 10 years ago. There I noticed that East Asian people had a very different skull shape from Europeans. Being quite dolichocephalic myself, with a prominent occipital bun, it started me how East Asian skulls fell so straight, at a 90° angle, from the top of their head to in the continuation of their neck, while many European (though not all) have a much more elongated and rounded skull at the back. It immediately reminded me of the shape of Neanderthal skulls. When looking at all the physical characteristics of Neanderthals, it suddenly dawned on me that East Asians didn't have any of these characteristics, while I had almost all of them (except the low skull and short stocky stature). I inspected and compared assiduously physical traits of people from all over the world for many years and became earnestly convinced that Europeans, and especially northern Europeans, inherited a sizeable part of their genome from Neanderthals. It came as a surprise to me that East Asians inherited almost as much Neanderthal DNA as Europeans. Perhaps did they select for different genes, less phenotypical ones. It's already obvious from the HLA that East Asians and Papuans inherited a bigger percentage of their immune system from Neanderthals and Denisovans than from Homo Sapiens.

I think the bigger surprise was something else: many people (including myself) thought that if there was interbreeding between Neanderthals and Homo sapiens, it would have happened between the Neanderthals and the first "modern" humans that arrived into Europe in the Paleolithic. However, instead it turns out that the interbreeding already occured during humanity's initial "breakout" of Africa, and that basically the entire non-subsaharan-African population carries some Neanderthal DNA with them.
 
Very interesting Maciamo. Of course, if Dienekes' thought what you say, he was completely wrong.

According to Interpretome I have 13 Neanderthal alleles. I'm a bit over the average European, but very far from the highest scores reported on Northern Europeans (26-27).

I specially have VERY fair skin and blue eyes, the rest probably nothing. But I recently saw a girl (she was on hollidays in Barcelona, surely Northern European) with almost all traits descrived. It was very curious, she looked incredibly rare (specially eye cavity), I've never seen something like this in my life.

Now that theme springs up, just a small question: When (if ever) did it become biologically impossible/unlikely for Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals to interbreed?
 
Since Cromagnons entered Europe it was impossible not to interbreed with Neanderthals, because the last ones were surely the first inhabitants of Europe. However, Neanderthals should appear less in number at some point, and they were completely absorbed.

I think that's the simple summary.
 

This thread has been viewed 1279077 times.

Back
Top