European Races

[spongetaro]

Lapanoid refers to the physical phenotypes characteristic of the Laplanders or Sami. They regard their homeland to be the northern extremity of Europe however it is reasonable to believe that they ventured south and brought these characteristics with them.

It is not impossible that they ventured south... but as far as southern Germany and southern France?

Most of the territory inhabited by Laplanders is Nordic, sub nordic or continental nordic.

I think that what they call "Alpine-Laponoid" refers to the shape of the skull or something like that

 

[spongetaro]

I meant "southern Germany and central France"

 

[Dorianfinder]

It is not impossible that they ventured south... but as far as southern Germany and southern France?

Most of the territory inhabited by Laplanders is Nordic, sub nordic or continental nordic.

Look carefully at the extreme north of the map you posted and you will notice some Alpine-Laponoid there as well.

I think that what they call "Alpine-Laponoid" refers to the shape of the skull or something like that

Correct, the shape of the scull and the breadth of the face.

 

[Knovas]

Judging from your description above you sound sub-Nordic with Mediterranean features. The link you posted was Nordic-centric and classifies the various admixtures of Alpine and Slavic in terms of Nordic pre-IE. I found some of the photos of celebrities rather amusing. The problem comes in when one tries to differentiate a Slavic 'round head' and 'broad face' with lets say a Celtic (Alpine) 'round head' and 'broad face'. I see they use the term Baltid to denote Northeastern.

Yes, Sub-Nordids are pretty similar to me according to the picts they use, I thought the same as you time ago. However, I think it's just casual, since autosomally they should appear with higher Northern (Northeast/Northwest) influence than mine. Atlanto-Meds can perfectly look very similar to me, the problem is they use only one picture to descrive this group and with such information Sub-Nordids match me better. Also, these are intermediate groups (quite closer geographically), and I assume some deviations aren't rare at all in some individuals. It's possible my Mediterranean traits with the small Baltic I usually get on admixture, can make me a bit similar to them, but genetically speaking I'm predominantly Atlanto-Med (North Atlantic + Southwestern).

 

[Dorianfinder]

This racial notions are ridiculous. For example the so-called mediterranean race, when we know with genetic distances, that a spaniard can be genetically closer to a German or Birtish than to a Greek or Cypriot

I agree with your sentiments and still believe that Mediterranean characteristics do exist though. Does it matter what admixtures an individual may have when he looks Mediterranean and is culturally Mediterranean? Many of these classifications are too generalized however there remains a broad underpinning differentiating North, Central and Med.

 

[Goga]

I agree with your sentiments and still believe that Mediterranean characteristics do exist though. Does it matter what admixtures an individual may have when he looks Mediterranean and is culturally Mediterranean? Many of these classifications are too generalized however there remains a broad underpinning differentiating North, Central and Med.

I don't agree with you. Genetically and phenotypically Greeks are closer to the Germans and Scandinavians than Iberians are. Iberians are only closer to other Celts in West Atlantic Europe. Greeks do have much more Nordic Scandinavian and Slavic DNA than the Iberians do.

In general I do consider the Greeks much more 'Nordic' than the Iberians. And I'm not looking at their skin-color, but to their skeleton (and cranium) and how big they are. Greeks have more a stature/shape of the warriors than the Iberians. Iberians are more 'fragile'.

 

[Goga]

Btw, there're no races, only 1 race. But there're different phenotypes though.

 

[Knovas]

Sorry Goga, but you are wrong. The Genetic distance between Iberians and Germans is smaller than the one you find between Greeks and Germans, and the same is valid using Scandinavians. Greeks have too much West + Southwest Asian to be closer to them, and very low Northern European compared with Iberians. Just see Dodecad/Eurogenes projects and clustering studies. (Greeks cluster with Southern Italians...far than Iberians are taking Scandinavians and Germans as reference).

Here you have:

Bauchet
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8812/bauchetplotqk8.png

Price
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/420/priceplotsm4.png

Tian
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/9836/tianplot.png

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I don't agree with you. Genetically and phenotypically Greeks are closer to the Germans and Scandinavians than Iberians are. Iberians are only closer to other Celts in West Atlantic Europe. Greeks do have much more Nordic Scandinavian and Slavic DNA than the Iberians do.

In general I do consider the Greeks much more 'Nordic' than the Iberians. And I'm not looking at their skin-color, but to their skeleton (and cranium) and how big they are. Greeks have more a stature/shape of the warriors than the Iberians. Iberians are more 'fragile'.

Where are you getting your information from? What you wrote is outrageously wrong. Iberians are far closer to Germans (and Hungarians, Dutch, South-eastern Britons...) genetically than Greeks. Do some research. The autosomal DNA results are most clear on this.

 

[Goga]

Sorry Goga, but you are wrong. The Genetic distance between Iberians and Germans is smaller than the one you find between Greeks and Germans, and the same is valid using Scandinavians. Greeks have too much West + Southwest Asian to be closer to them, and very low Northern European compared with Iberians. Just see Dodecad/Eurogenes projects and clustering studies. (Greeks cluster with Southern Italians...far than Iberians are taking Scandinavians and Germans as reference).

As far as I know is Iberian R1b NOT Nordic. I think that R1b in Greeks is more Nordic, from Northern Europe (Germanic peoples) than the Iberian one. Plus Greeks have much more R1a and I (which I do consider as Central-East European).
I don't agree with the maps above me, but as I can see I'm not the only one who place the Greeks as Alpine phenotype. And between Nordic and Med. phenotype there is an Alpines phenotype.
There's a gradual formation of the phenotypes. From 'big' to 'smaller' ones.

I do consider Greeks 'bigger' than the Iberians!

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

As far as I know is Iberian R1b NOT Nordic. I think that R1b in Greeks is more Nordic, from Northern Europe, than the Iberian one. Plus Greeks have much more R1a and I (which I do consider as Central-East European).
I don't agree with the maps above me, but as I can see I'm not the only one who that consider the Greeks as Alpines. And between Nordic and Med. phenotype there is an Alpines phenotype.
There's a gradual formation of the phenotypes. From 'big' to 'smaller' ones.

I do consider Greeks 'bigger' than the Iberians!

The only thing that counts with regards to phenotype is autosomal DNA. There are large percentages of Greeks who are small of stature.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

As far as I know is Iberian R1b NOT Nordic. I think that R1b in Greeks is more Nordic, from Northern Europe (Germanic peoples) than the Iberian one. Plus Greeks have much more R1a and I (which I do consider as Central-East European).
I don't agree with the maps above me, but as I can see I'm not the only one who place the Greeks as Alpine phenotype. And between Nordic and Med. phenotype there is an Alpines phenotype.
There's a gradual formation of the phenotypes. From 'big' to 'smaller' ones.

I do consider Greeks 'bigger' than the Iberians!

I guess you don't agree with scientific facts. Sorry to hear that. Of course, you are free to believe whatever you want.

 

[Knovas]

Man, you go against all academic research. Germans and Scandinavians have very low Near Eastern, the same as Iberians. Doesn't matter Greeks have a lot of R1a if they have substantial Anatolian/Mideast influence (also aprecible in the haplogroup table). Impossible to be closer than Iberians are since they deviate much more towards Caucasian and Middle Eastern peoples.

 

[Goga]

The only thing that counts with regards to phenotype is autosomal DNA. There are large percentages of Greeks who are small of stature.

I don't agree with you! No way, autosomal DNA says nothing about your skin-colour or anything about your phenotype. Phenotypes are only visible and measurable.

I know that your sense organs can lie, but measurable proportion of somebody's crania and skeleton are facts.

 

[Goga]

Man, you go against all academic research. Germans and Scandinavians have very low Near Eastern, the same as Iberians. Doesn't matter Greeks have a lot of R1a if they have substantial Anatolian/Mideast influence (also aprecible in the haplogroup table). Impossible to be closer than Iberians are since they deviate much more towards Caucasian and Middle Eastern peoples.

Man, it has nothing to do with having less or more Anatolian/Mideast, African, East Asian etc. influences. Why don't you understand that!

 

[Goga]

Some African phenotypes are much bigger than the most European phenotypes! Some Africans in some areas in Africa are very big!

 

[Knovas]

Your genes is what determine phenotype, including skull shape. Can you understand such easy thing?

And also, Iberians are predominantly Southwestern when we are refering to the Mediterranean side, little to do with the typical Mediterraneans you can find in other places. Just see the other K=12 with the Sardinian and Basque components. The major Iberian composition is, by far, Northwest + Northeast + Basque, just 20% aprox is listed as Sardinian...too low in comparison with the other 65%-70%.

What the hell bigger or smaller are you saying? Black Africans are big and they have nothing to do here...you have strange notions.

 

[sparkey]

I think it's true that Iberians tend to be closer in autosomal admixture to Germanic peoples than Greeks are... but in Goga's defense, there's not always a direct correspondence between certain phenotypes and overall autosomal admixture. So to directly address the question, do we have anything that actually shows whether Iberian skull shapes are closer to the skull shapes of Germanic peoples than the skull shapes of Greeks are?

 

[Goga]

Your genes is what determine phenotype, including skull shape. Can you understand such easy thing?

And also, Iberians are predominantly Southwestern when we are refering to the Mediterranean side, little to do with the typical Mediterraneans you can find in other places. Just see the other K=12 with the Sardinian and Basque components. The major Iberian composition is, by far, Northwest + Northeast + Basque, just 20% aprox is listed as Sardinian...too low in comparison with the other 65%-70%.

What the hell bigger or smaller are you saying? Black Africans are big and they have nothing to do here...you have strange notions.

The thing is that the Greek phenotype is classified as Alpine one. And Alpines are in general between Nordics and Meds!

As far as I know in general Greeks are bigger in statue than the Iberians. Iberians are smaller and more fragile. There's a reason why Nordic phenotype borders the Alpine one and NOT the Mediterranean. There's a gradual formation of the phenotypes!

UK is a special case because British folks are an admixture of the Mediterranean and Nordic phenotype! Many Brits are 'Celtic immigrants' from south Europe!

 

[Knovas]

You haven't, but the same is valid for him while saying Greeks are closer to Germans and Scandinavians. Then, the only way is checking admixture analysis, and there's no doubt about it.

Case closed XD

PD: Greeks are listed as mostly Mediterranean taking the maps as whole, no difference compared to Iberians in such aspect. Again, there's only one way, they way I said.