New map of haplogroup R1b-L21 (S145)

Actually, in regard for Britain, it would make sense. Most of the Celtic tribes we can link to the mainland are found on the East coast (including the Brigantes and the Parisii relatively far in the north), which matches the distribution of U152 in britain.

So do you think we're comfortable calling Welsh people "native Goidelic peoples who picked up P-Celtic from their Eastern neighbors"?

Cornwall is traditionally P-Celtic as well but has higher R1b-U152, so we probably can't say quite the same thing for them, although they also have a ton of R1b-L21.

Or is P-Celtic earlier?
 
I'm personally torn between two possible dates of arrival:

- the Wessex Culture (early 2nd millennium BC), and associated with it the Aremorican Tumuli. What in my opinion speaks against it is the apparent continuity with earlier Aboriginal cultures in the Atlantic region (notably, the final constructions at Stone Henge take place during this period).

- A far better candidate is the later Atlantic Bronze culture, beginning in the 13th century BC (coinciding with the great upheavals occuring in the Eastern Mediterranean). This period is a great, Europe-wide upheaval, much better to imagine that such a large-scale population replacement would have taken place in Britain and Ireland.

- Any later date would be unreasonable in my opinion. In particular, I think that R1b-U152 started arriving in Britain in the 8th century BC with the spread of iron-working.

The Bronze age and its upheaval seems a better candidate as it's a much more violent era than the Beaker's time. I read that Irish people lack indigeneous mtdna like H1 and H3 which means that L21 didn't really mix with the former population but rather eradicated it.
 
I found the Maciamo's post:


Ireland is an interesting case because it is the remotest part of Europe from the Pontic-Caspian region, and yet one where R1b makes up over 80% of male lineages. I wasn't expecting to find a link because I thought that R1b men would have intermarried to frequently with local European women for steppe mtDNA to survive in substantial level in the westernmost region of Europe.

Helgason's study gives respectively 2.34% of I, 0.78% of U2, 0% of U3, 2.34% of U4 and 2.34% of W. 7.80% in total. Compared with other Western European countries, Ireland has more steppe/Indo-European mtDNA than France/Italy (5.26%), Iberia (5.4%), Scandinavia (6.52%) or England/Wales (7.69%), and only slightly less than Germany (8.74%) and the Alps (Austria/Switzerland, 9.04%).

H1, a haplogroup typical of the Paleolithic Western European population is surprisingly low in Ireland - in fact lower than anywhere else in Europe except Bulgaria and Turkey. This could mean that a major population replacement happened in Ireland, not just for paternal linages but also maternal ones.

Actually the Indo European mtdna only makes 7.80% of the whole Irish mtdna but it still higher than England/Wales and Scandinavia.
 
So do you think we're comfortable calling Welsh people "native Goidelic peoples who picked up P-Celtic from their Eastern neighbors"?

Cornwall is traditionally P-Celtic as well but has higher R1b-U152, so we probably can't say quite the same thing for them, although they also have a ton of R1b-L21.

Or is P-Celtic earlier?

Well the question should be more framed along the lines of did the consonant shift spread along with La Tène material culture among the pre-existing population who were speaking a "dialect" closer to "Proto-Celtic" at the time. You don't necessarily need a "conquest"/population change given that both languages would have been closely related to each other at the time. I would think that outside of core area in the south-east/east of the Pennines mountains that acculturation is the main pushing factor in Britain.

Pennines_edited-1.jpg
 
So do you think we're comfortable calling Welsh people "native Goidelic peoples who picked up P-Celtic from their Eastern neighbors"?

Cornwall is traditionally P-Celtic as well but has higher R1b-U152, so we probably can't say quite the same thing for them, although they also have a ton of R1b-L21.

Well, I/we really don't know. I'm always sceptic with the whole "cultural transmission" concept (primarily because it has been proven wrong in too many cases, take a look at the arrival of agriculture in Europe). What I do know, and what is clear that Britain in the 1st century AD was, from north to south, completely P-Celtic. Q-Celtic (ie, Goidelic) didn't arrive back in Britain until the Migrations Period.

Well the question should be more framed along the lines of did the consonant shift spread along with La Tène material culture among the pre-existing population who were speaking a "dialect" closer to "Proto-Celtic" at the time. You don't necessarily need a "conquest"/population change given that both languages would have been closely related to each other at the time. I would think that outside of core area in the south-east/east of the Pennines mountains that acculturation is the main pushing factor in Britain.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Pennines_edited-1.jpg

As I explained in the thread/post below, there is a bit more to the Q/P shift than dialect. There's a set of common sound laws which are absent in Goidelic:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26753-Research-about-R1b-U152-probably-Roman-(and-italic)-origin-not-Gallic&p=380460&viewfull=1#post380460

You definitely have a valid point about the Pennines because it largely matches (from what I have seen so far) the distribution/limitations of the extend of U152. The question is if the ancient Britons did only adopt these innovations through language contact, or if there was a common "Britanno-Gallic" stage of evolution. The discussion could be called essentially similar to the question about wether there was an Italo-Celtic, Balto-Slavic or Indo-Iranic language stage (though support for the latter two is much more firm). Having said this, at the time the shifts did happen, it probably wasn't much more drastic than the High German consonant shift, for comparison.
 
Well, I/we really don't know. I'm always sceptic with the whole "cultural transmission" concept (primarily because it has been proven wrong in too many cases, take a look at the arrival of agriculture in Europe). What I do know, and what is clear that Britain in the 1st century AD was, from north to south, completely P-Celtic. Q-Celtic (ie, Goidelic) didn't arrive back in Britain until the Migrations Period.



As I explained in the thread/post below, there is a bit more to the Q/P shift than dialect. There's a set of common sound laws which are absent in Goidelic:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26753-Research-about-R1b-U152-probably-Roman-(and-italic)-origin-not-Gallic&p=380460&viewfull=1#post380460

You definitely have a valid point about the Pennines because it largely matches (from what I have seen so far) the distribution/limitations of the extend of U152. The question is if the ancient Britons did only adopt these innovations through language contact, or if there was a common "Britanno-Gallic" stage of evolution. The discussion could be called essentially similar to the question about wether there was an Italo-Celtic, Balto-Slavic or Indo-Iranic language stage (though support for the latter two is much more firm). Having said this, at the time the shifts did happen, it probably wasn't much more drastic than the High German consonant shift, for comparison.

Indeed there are also a number of Gaulish changes not present in Brythonic though (likewise not present in goidelic). Now I'm pilfering the list from wiki so I don't know how well it will stack up in a court of law :grin:

  • Voiced labiovelar gw became w, e. g. gwediūmi > uediiumi "I pray" (cf. Irish guidhim, Welsh gweddi "to pray").
  • PIE tst became /ts/, spelled ð, e.g. *nedz-tamo > neððamon (cf. Irish nesamh "nearest", Welsh nesaf "next").
  • PIE eu became ou, and later ō, e.g. *teutā > touta > tōta "tribe" (cf. Irish tuath, Welsh tud "people").
  • Additionally, intervocalic /st/ became the affricate [ts] (alveolar stop + voiceless alveolar stop) and intervocalic /sr/ became [ðr] and /str/ became [þr]. Finally, when a labial or velar stop came before either a /t/ or /s/ the two sounds merged into the fricative [x].

I do think pesonally the High German sound shift is a great comparison. What we know of Brythonic is based purely off what was spoken in "Western Britain", we have no idea how isoglosses might have been 2,000 years ago.

The Pennies also come into importance later with the arrival of Anglo-Saxons, Brythonic survived west of the Pennines nearly everywhere up until probably the 8th century, the seperation of Wales from the north (The "old north" of Welsh sagas) of course occurs around southern reach of the Pennies with the defeat at the Battle of Chester in around 615AD. The land connection to Cornwall of course been broken in 577AD with Battle of Deorham.

Still of course Brythonic speakers existed west of the Pennines in Strathclyde until they were absorbed into medieval Kingdom of Scotland.
 
Of course looking at the Busby/Myers data L21 is present in great numbers then U152 in all of their "sample regions" for England apart "England Southeast" where the two of them are equal at 15.4%, both are outnumbered by P312* (ex L21/U152) at 21.2% and U106 at 26.9%

It would be interesting in that case how much of the P312* belongs to the new "norse" clade L238.
 
Indeed there are also a number of Gaulish changes not present in Brythonic though (likewise not present in goidelic). Now I'm pilfering the list from wiki so I don't know how well it will stack up in a court of law :grin:

  • Voiced labiovelar gw became w, e. g. gwediūmi > uediiumi "I pray" (cf. Irish guidhim, Welsh gweddi "to pray").
  • PIE tst became /ts/, spelled ð, e.g. *nedz-tamo > neððamon (cf. Irish nesamh "nearest", Welsh nesaf "next").
  • PIE eu became ou, and later ō, e.g. *teutā > touta > tōta "tribe" (cf. Irish tuath, Welsh tud "people").
  • Additionally, intervocalic /st/ became the affricate [ts] (alveolar stop + voiceless alveolar stop) and intervocalic /sr/ became [ðr] and /str/ became [þr]. Finally, when a labial or velar stop came before either a /t/ or /s/ the two sounds merged into the fricative [x].

Of course. :grin: After all, Gaulish and Brythonic wasn't the same, anyways. Or "not anymore" by the 1st century BC at least. Also, please forgive me that I insist on the sound laws (I may come about as a horrible person because of this :LOL: ), but they are the "tools of trade" if you will in linguistics.

I do think pesonally the High German sound shift is a great comparison. What we know of Brythonic is based purely off what was spoken in "Western Britain", we have no idea how isoglosses might have been 2,000 years ago.

Well, more like 2500 years ago. We do have a fairly good image of British place names / personal names from Greek/Roman sources.

The Pennies also come into importance later with the arrival of Anglo-Saxons, Brythonic survived west of the Pennines nearly everywhere up until probably the 8th century, the seperation of Wales from the north (The "old north" of Welsh sagas) of course occurs around southern reach of the Pennies with the defeat at the Battle of Chester in around 615AD. The land connection to Cornwall of course been broken in 577AD with Battle of Deorham.

Still of course Brythonic speakers existed west of the Pennines in Strathclyde until they were absorbed into medieval Kingdom of Scotland.

I absolutely agree. The situation with the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons is probably a good parallel to the situation ~1200 years earlier.
 
Central England -- n=165
  • L11* (ex U106/P312): 1.8%
  • U106: 18.2%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152): 15.2%
  • L21: 16.4%
  • U152: 9.7%

England Central -- n=25
  • L11* (ex U106/P312): 12%
  • U106: 24%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152): 12%
  • L21: 12% (M222 = 4%)
  • U152: --/--

East England -- n=172
  • L11* (ex U106/P312): 1.7%
  • U106: 25.6%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152): 17.4%
  • L21: 12.8%
  • U152: 8.1%

England Northwest -- n=47
  • L11* (ex U106/P312): 2.1%
  • U106: 21.3%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152): 10.6%
  • L21: 40.4% (M222 = 10.6%)
  • U152: 6.4%

England Southeast -- n=52
  • L11* (ex U106/P312): 1.9%
  • U106: 26.9%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152): 21.2%
  • L21: 15.4% (M222 = 1.9%)
  • U152: 15.4%

England Southwest -- n=48
  • L11* (ex U106/P312): 2.1%
  • U106: 25%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152): 6.3%
  • L21: 37.5% (M222 = 1.9%)
  • U152: 8.3%
 
There are definitely similar gradients in U152 and U106. By the way, do you also have the figures for Wales?
 
North Wales -- n=120
  • L11* (ex U106/P312): 0.8%
  • U106: 9.2%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152): 17.5%
  • L21: 45% (M222 = 4.2%)
  • U152: 7.5%

South Wales -- n=9 (Way too small a sample!)
  • L11* (ex U106/P312): --/--
  • U106: 22.2%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152): 11.1%
  • L21: 55.6%
  • U152: --/--

North East Scotland -- n=67
  • L11* (ex U106/P312): 1.5%
  • U106: 19.4%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152): 6%
  • L21: 52.2% (M222 = 10.4%)
  • U152: 4.5%

North West Scotland -- n=80
  • L11* (ex U106/P312): --/--
  • U106: 6.3%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152): 11.3%
  • L21: 48.8% (M222 = 6.3%)
  • U152: --/--

West Scotland -- n=21 (Small sample!)
  • L11* (ex U106/P312): --/--
  • U106: 9.5%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152): --/--
  • L21: 66.7% (M222 = 14.3%)
  • U152: 4.8%

Orkney -- n=112
  • L11* (ex U106/P312): 1.8%
  • U106: 17%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152): 6.3%
  • L21: 33.9% (M222 = 0.9%)
  • U152: 3.6%
 
I agree that the sample sizes for West Scotland and South Wales are most unfortunate (so is the sample for Central England, by the way). It's interesting to see however that U152 exists all the way up to northern and western Scotland as well as the Orkneys. The question is, is this the effect of 2000+ years of dispersal, or had U152 already penetrated that far north 2000 or 2500 years ago?
 
East Ireland -- n=149
  • L11* (ex U106/P312): 1.3%
  • U106: 6.7%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152): 7.4%
  • L21: 71.1% (M222 = 19.5%)
  • U152: 4%

Ireland East -- n=16 (too small!)
  • L11* (ex U106/P312): --/--
  • U106: --/--
  • P312 (ex L21/U152): 18.8%
  • L21: 56.3% (M222 = 25%)
  • U152: --/--%

North Ireland -- n=72
  • L11* (ex U106/P312): 1.4%
  • U106: 4.2%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152): 4.2%
  • L21: 79.2% (M222 = 44.4%)
  • U152: 1.4%

Ireland North -- n=21
  • L11* (ex U106/P312): --/--
  • U106: 14.3%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152): 14.3%
  • L21: 47.6% (M222 = 14.3%)
  • U152: --/--

South Ireland -- n=89
  • L11* (ex U106/P312): 2.2%
  • U106: 3.4%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152): 7.9%
  • L21: 74.2% (M222 = 11.2%)
  • U152: 1.1%

Ireland South -- n=24
  • L11* (ex U106/P312): --/--
  • U106: 8.3%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152): 12.5%
  • L21: 58.3% (M222 = 4.2%)
  • U152: 4.2

Ireland Southwest -- n=22
  • L11* (ex U106/P312): --/--
  • U106: 4.5%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152): 22.7%
  • L21: 45.5% (M222 = 4.5%)
  • U152: --/--

West Ireland -- n=67
  • L11* (ex U106/P312): --/--
  • U106: 4.5%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152): 7.5%
  • L21: 73.1% (M222 = 26.9%)
  • U152: 1.5%

Ireland West -- n=16
  • L11* (ex U106/P312): --/--
  • U106: --/--
  • P312 (ex L21/U152): --/--
  • L21: 93.8% (M222 = 43.8%)
  • U152: 6.3%
 
I agree that the sample sizes for West Scotland and South Wales are most unfortunate (so is the sample for Central England, by the way). It's interesting to see however that U152 exists all the way up to northern and western Scotland as well as the Orkneys. The question is, is this the effect of 2000+ years of dispersal, or had U152 already penetrated that far north 2000 or 2500 years ago?

Indeed well as you can see it forms 4% in "East Ireland" however given that Eastern part of Ireland formed the bulk of the Norman colony it wouldn't be surprising if a lot of this is due to the last 1000 years of history, as oppose to earlier. What we really need when SNP testing is done is for the major subclades to be tested. This would perhaps given a more insightful view. Just testing L21/U152/U106 by themselves isn't that useful by itself, it's like just testing for L11 across all Western Europe in my opinion.
 
I believe one of the reasons for L21 been "depressed" in North Wales is due to the high level of Haplogroup E in the area -- anywhere up to 40% in parts. There's been lots of claims of connections to Roman mining been the cause of that.
 
Indeed well as you can see it forms 4% in "East Ireland" however given that Eastern part of Ireland formed the bulk of the Norman colony it wouldn't be surprising if a lot of this is due to the last 1000 years of history, as oppose to earlier. What we really need when SNP testing is done is for the major subclades to be tested. This would perhaps given a more insightful view. Just testing L21/U152/U106 by themselves isn't that useful by itself, it's like just testing for L11 across all Western Europe in my opinion.

You have a good point about the Normans/Vikings in eastern Ireland. They definitely should have had some impact. One aspect about Scotland that might be relevant is the effect of the Goidelic immigration during the Migrations Period. If you look at the ratios of M222 in Scotland, it stands to reason that a sizable population of people carrying L21 (-M222) would have also arrived from Ireland in Scotland. If U152 was already present in Scotland before, it would have become dilluted by this. One issue that both Scottish and Irish U152 shows is that R1b-U152 is unlikely to be solely of Italic/Roman origin.

I believe one of the reasons for L21 been "depressed" in North Wales is due to the high level of Haplogroup E in the area -- anywhere up to 40% in parts. There's been lots of claims of connections to Roman mining been the cause of that.

Haplogroup E in Britain might be Roman, but we currently have no idea where/when Haplogroup E did arrive in Europe anyways (you may check out the main thread on that).
 
As Dubhthach said, M222 may well be a La Tène marker. The La Tène and M222 areas are much the same. Here are two more pictures for reference. The first is La Tène and the second is M222.

LaTene.jpgpercents.jpg
 
You have a good point about the Normans/Vikings in eastern Ireland. They definitely should have had some impact. One aspect about Scotland that might be relevant is the effect of the Goidelic immigration during the Migrations Period. If you look at the ratios of M222 in Scotland, it stands to reason that a sizable population of people carrying L21 (-M222) would have also arrived from Ireland in Scotland.

The probelm though is there is no archaelgoical signs of mass movement from Ireland into Scotland during the early medieval period. The archaelogy is actually continuous from before the 4th century. Also the biggest subgrouping of L21 in Scotland appears to be the "Scots Modal" which is only present in Ireland generally among men bearing non-irish surnames (mostly scottish).

The "Little Scots" appears to be DF21+, which appears widespread across Western Britain been found in samples from 1000 genomes on Orkney and in Cornwall as well (one continental result so far -- Dutch)

DF21%20Distribution.jpg


L21 in general appears older in Britain then in Ireland.
 
As Dubhthach said, M222 may well be a La Tène marker. The La Tène and M222 areas are much the same. Here are two more pictures for reference. The first is La Tène and the second is M222.

View attachment 5154View attachment 5155

I disagree. If it was a La-Tene marker, we would see it spiral out from the European mainland (specifically eastern France, Rhineland). R1b-U152 is a much better candidate for that, in my opinion.

In contrast M222 is found virtually only on the British Isles (with exception of Norway and Iceland, which as we stated before, can be explained by the intense contacts between the Goidels and the Vikings).

I find it more likely to assume that M222 is a marker that evolved indigenously in Ireland (at any point of time between the Bronze Age Collapse and the Migration Period, which is obviously a long period, I admit that) and came to be dispersed by the Migration Period when the Goidels began to establish themselves in what would become Scotland.
 
the main areas for M222 in Scotland are in the Eastern Lowlands which were never "Gaelic speaking" they were Brythonic and then Anglic speaking. The area is the core of the "Scots" language. Likewise it's quite common over the border in North-east England. the Varience calculations tend to point to it been oldest in England followed by Scotland and youngest in Ireland. The Irish M222 has all the signs of a major "founder effect" going on. Interesting enough the core of the M222+ region in Ireland is adjacent to groups who are showing up as L513+ and DF21+. Likewise further east you have specific I2b2 that is associated more with Scotland then the rest of Ireland and shows up in groupings tied to La Tène material culture in Ireland. The north east been where the highest amount of finds have been found.

In general though La Tène material culture finds are nearly all restricted to "Leath Conn" with next to nothing found in Leath Mogha. Interesting enough the vast majority of Ogham stones in Ireland are in Leath Mogha.
 

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