Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast
Results 76 to 100 of 102

Thread: New map of haplogroup R1b-L21 (S145)

  1. #76
    Elite member Asturrulumbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-09-11
    Location
    Kingston, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    210


    Country: Mexico



    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    It turns out that L459 is not equivalent to L21 but under it. A L459- result came in there today. Most of the major clades of L21 are L459+, potentially a major development.
    Interesting! From where?

  2. #77
    martiko martiko's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-01-14
    Posts
    213

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-DF100
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1

    Ethnic group
    european : basqueR1b/IberianI2b
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    One thing is certain: we have R1b-P312, with its 5 Subclades, M65, Z196, U152 and L21:
    -M65 is most frequent in the Basque Country (around 2-3%) and the Central&Eastern Pyrenees (atround 2-3%), and in much lower frequencies in Spain in general
    -Z196 has 2 subclades:
    --M153, which is found among Basques (around 2%, but much higher around the Pyrenees) and in much lower frequencies in the rest of Iberia
    --L176.2 has 2 subclades, which I explain here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...d-it-originate
    -U152, which is constantly discussed and has a map
    -L21, which is currently being discussed (and has a map)
    -L238, which appears mostly in Scandinavia
    Somewhere, sometime, R1b-P312 (and each of its subclades) originated. Where, when? Maybe a map of R1b-P312 would help (especially considering there's a quite large amount of P312*)...
    everything would justesi vousne doing no big grseule error:

    M65 marker Celtic Iberians is nonexistent in Basque proven, the peak of M65 is located in Asturias and Galicia and Portugal center then no cases among French and Basque Pyrenees rarely in the east or Spanish.
    The M153 marker (subclade of M167) very rare almost entirely in English and Basque but also occasionally found among the Catalan, Irish and French West enigmatic Austria ..
    M65 is a branch of the group P312 itself a branch of P311 which is Western European. This is the exclusive label to the east of the Iberian Peninsula and the smallest of the four branches of P312 classified by demographics.
    U152,; DF27; L21. M65 and P312 * (not rated).

  3. #78
    martiko martiko's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-01-14
    Posts
    213

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-DF100
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1

    Ethnic group
    european : basqueR1b/IberianI2b
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by martiko View Post
    everything would justesi vousne doing no big grseule error:

    M65 marker Celtic Iberians is nonexistent in Basque proven, the peak of M65 is located in Asturias and Galicia and Portugal center then no cases among French and Basque Pyrenees rarely in the east or Spanish.
    The M153 marker (subclade of M167) very rare almost entirely in English and Basque but also occasionally found among the Catalan, Irish and French West enigmatic Austria ..
    M65 is a branch of the group P312 itself a branch of P311 which is Western European. This is the exclusive label to the east of the Iberian Peninsula and the smallest of the four branches of P312 classified by demographics.
    U152,; DF27; L21. M65 and P312 * (not rated).

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ection=results

  4. #79
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,881

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    If by 'old' you mean relatively conservative, then yes. But, the same might be said about the Italic languages, with which the Celtic languages share a number of sound laws. If you disregard the fact that they are Satem languages, the Baltic languages might be also considered conservative, however.

    Anyways, Celtic shares with Germanic, Greek and Italic to have merged the so-called 'palatovelar' series of PIE (k´, g´ and g´h - which become s, z and ʒ-like sounds in the Satem languages) with the plain velar sounds (k, g, and gh).

    k´ > k
    g´ > g
    g´h > gh

    This is known to have occured after the early 3rd millennium BC (common Germanic-Baltoslavic forms which predate the Centum/Satem split and must have arisen in Corded Ware times), but before the mid-2nd millennium BC (attestation of Mycenean Greek, the oldest attested Centum language).

    One common sound law is the occurence of *p to *kw before *kw. For example:

    PIE 'Penk´we'
    Latin 'Quinque'
    Old Irish 'Coic'

    Note that this is an innovation that the Celtic language share not only with the Italic languages, but also with Venetic. Also note that, of course, the P-Celtic languages essentially 'hidden' that feature because they have shifted *kw to *p, which is why the word is 'Pimpetos' in Gaulish, 'Pump' in Welsh and 'Pemp' in Breton.

    Another common Italo-Celtic shape is the existence of -ī as a genitive form:

    Latin - Dominus; Dominī
    Gaulish - Mapos; Mapī
    Archaic Irish - Maqqos; Maqqī

    (it's interesting that this is attested in Archaic Irish, because this is generally a language, despite attested very late, that is rather close to Proto-Celtic)

    There are also common words for gold, silver and tin in the Italic and Celtic languages, but not for iron. Conversely, the word for iron is shared between the Celtic and the Germanic languages, which matches the archaeological fact that iron working arrived in the (Proto-Germanic) Jastorf Culture through contact with the (Celtic) Hallstatt Culture.

    It's really one of the main problems which I have with the Atlantic hypothesis is really that it somehow assumes the Celtic languages come out of thin air, woefully ignoring the interrelationship they have with the other branches of Indo-European. If the Celtic languages were really completely distinct from other branches of IE. Such can be seen with the Anatolian languages, which by the way, have retained some features of PIE lost elsewhere, such as the laryngal sounds.



    I think you are wrong here. As I said, if you look at the distribution of R1a in western Europe, there are peaks in Auvergne and Cantabria. Are these coincidential? I don't really think they are. As for the connection between R1a and the IE languages I think the distribution in Eastern Europe is fairly compelling. For one, R1a has been found (exclusively) in graves of the Corded Ware Culture, and the distribution of R1a in Central-Eastern Europe (including Scandinavia) matches very well to the extend of Corded Ware. There is also a number of shared vocabulary shared by Germanic and Balto-Slavic languages which predates the Centum/Satem split (for example the word for gold). The Corded Ware Culture is very much fitting exactly these conditions for a common pattern.
    The high percentages of Y-R1b-L21andwithin it L222 in W-Norway is intriguing me -

    I find it very surprising slaves malesof Vikings ages should have been sent to Norway in so a huge numberand allowed to reproduce themselves (with the help of some females, Iconcede) to produce a 12-15% of some norwegian districts !
    So I look for other events to explainit : Bronze Age ? The maritime distribution of Y-R-L21 inNW-Europe and its apparent today association(statistical) with mt-H1 and H3, frequent from Iberia toScandinavia-Finland push me to believe in a possible old enoughsettling in W-Europe ; not to say R1b-L21 came from somewherewith mt-H1+H3, but that it found it at some stage and moved with somebearers of it between some places after that... - I'm not sure yetL21 were not in W-Europe before Bronze (we have almost no Y-DNA inNW-Europe between middle Neolithic and metal ages, do correct meif I mistake ; – If I red well even L222 would not beborn in Ireland but only knew a founder effect in this isle (thissaid because the mtH1+H3 are not so dense in Ireland of today) -
    I know some scholars said mtDNA had alot of chances to be partly natural pressure selected but at littlescale of time it does not seem to drastic, because H1+H3 seem strongin countries as far away the one from the other as Iberia andFinland... -
    concerning Celts and Y-R1a I'm temptedto associate western R1a to Corded I consider as a proto-satemspeaking group – I see the Celts evolving in regions were BBs had astrong influence where later were found rathermore Y-R1b and maybe Y-I2a2 (ex I1c ex I2b), without I think Celts =BBs at all ; I think BBs evolved with time, from a wellorganized federation of litlle groups of metals prospectors (I agreehere with the old traditional view) from central-south-east Europe(Croatia?) ultimately from South the Black Sea ? (according totheories concerning the bronze melting technics replacing the oldways of Balkans-Carpathians) – their skills permitted rapidprogresses in the regions they setlled – BBs I think had enoughskills and selfdefense power to be respected, not enough to invade orpopulate large countries – it's very possible that the last BBsaspects were more the result of accultured people, accultured byother accultured ones, were the first BBs had some descendants, moreand more crossed with the local populations as acculturation andassimilation were running on, these last in western Europe being forthe most celtic speaking ?...
    to come back to Y-R1b-L21, they couldhave known two cultures, a non-I-Ean one and a I-Ean one, turned intoceltic early enough : the Qw- Celts ? I see them here a bitbefore S-Britain BBs settled from the Netherlands-Westphalen aboutthe 2500 BC -
    & :'metal ages' is confusing : we can imagine metallurgists tookfoot in West before the all-around accepted datation for copper andbronze as collective well spred phenomenon in West) and BBs weremaybe not the first ones ?



    • for Auvergne we have limited sample, with, I think, the weight of an industrial town as Clermont-Ferrand, so I have some mistrust in this lonesome survey – and do not forget East-Auvergne is in contact with Forez which was a terminal of Burgundian invaders as Lyonnais and Dauphiné (for Y-R1a) – I don't believe Celts had ever been strong for Y-R1a what does not exclude some rare SNP's... - but I confess the very low level of Y-I1 in Auvergne does not seem checking a northern germanic population : maybe are we building too much theories based on too little data here ?



    Notice my pronostics are all bets andthat I want more ancient DNA to make a sound opinion, it's safer,evidently !!! – (my brain works better in analysis than insynthesis) – I need to tickle my brain to search possible ways ofarriving for R-L51 descendants in West – Mediterranea is maybe nota so ridiculous hypothesis for the P312 group ??? wellseparated from the ancestors of Y-R1b6U106 ? - some celticlegends involving E-Mediterranean and North Africa could have a partof truth ??? or they mix the true celtic history with the BBshistory, making a medley, what is not impossible at all knowing howlegends and myths work ?

  5. #80
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,473


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    3 members found this post helpful.
    I have updated the R1b-L21 map using the more accurate data for Iberia from Valverde et al. (2016) and for France from Lucotte et al (2015). The new data allowed me to add L21 in Corsica, Sardinia and around Rome, and to increase it in north-western France and around Paris. I have also revised down the frequencies in England, Lowland Scotland, Leinster and Ulster.

    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  6. #81
    Elite member Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    820

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Maciamo do you have seen the study of Tofanelli?there are samples from all over Italy.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

  7. #82
    Regular Member berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,085


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Being the L21 haplo 4500 years old their actual extension could be related also to the Atlantic (Late) Bronze Age...

    Atlantic Bronze.jpg
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  8. #83
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,473


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Maciamo do you have seen the study of Tofanelli?there are samples from all over Italy.
    Yes, I have seen it. They are actually plenty of Y-DNA studies for Italy. That's why my maps tend to be much more detailed in Italy.

  9. #84
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    09-04-15
    Posts
    71


    Country: Portugal



    Is there a way to see the valverde et al (2016) spreadsheet. Thank You.
    Last edited by suebiking; 29-09-16 at 22:36. Reason: writing mistake

  10. #85
    Banned
    Join Date
    03-07-15
    Posts
    475


    Country: Cuba



    Quote Originally Posted by suebiking View Post
    Is there a way to see the valverde et al (2016) spreadsheet. Thank You.
    This looks like Celtic haplo. For an amateur like me it seems like Celts originated in Britannia region. Irish, Scots and Welsh, as derivatives of Celts look like founding effect of Celts!!!

  11. #86
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-02-15
    Posts
    39


    Country: USA - Pennsylvania



    Thanks for posting this. R1b-L21 is my haplogroup.

  12. #87
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    28-08-17
    Posts
    4

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1B-RL21-M269
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5A-1

    Ethnic group
    Welsh, Swedish, Norman French, English
    Country: USA - Pennsylvania



    According to my L21 results with 23 and me I am an alleged descendant of Ui Neill, but I see references to m222, whereas I have m269. Hoping for an explanation as I am new at this and it seem unlikely that Ui Neill bless his departed soul would have been both, unless one leads to another?

  13. #88
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    14-04-18
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    1

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L21

    Ethnic group
    English, irish, Scottish
    Country: Australia



    Gee, I am the same haplogroup. I'm in Perth, Australia but all ancestors from Ireland, England and Scotland. Dad did have Vikings Disease. Could be the Norwegian connection. Regards, Greg.

  14. #89
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-02-15
    Posts
    39


    Country: USA - Pennsylvania



    So where is the geographic origin of R1b-L21?

  15. #90
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-01-12
    Location
    Bucharest
    Posts
    943

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    proly R1B

    Ethnic group
    Romanian
    Country: Romania



    @Maciamo:
    I think is quite clear old Celts mostly had 0 blood group.
    Check how high frequency has 0 in Republic of Ireland:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_...ion_by_country
    Also, they carried very few B, think Ireland has a little higher B, because it was brought by Vikings.
    Would be interested to test the blood of males with R1B-L21 and see what is the percentage of 0 at them :) .

  16. #91
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    28-06-15
    Posts
    9


    Country: Australia



    In Brittany in the 930s, the Loire Viking leaders had Breton names. So there may be more “Celtic rebel” involvement in Viking than is commonly portrayed.

  17. #92
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    28-06-15
    Posts
    9


    Country: Australia



    Any data specifically for eastern Cambridgeshire and western Suffolk? My Tweed ancestors have a Brythonic surname, identify with the Welsh, and are recorded in south-east England parish registers since the early 1400s.

    The region was settled by Bretons after 1066.

  18. #93
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    28-06-15
    Posts
    9


    Country: Australia



    O+ is frequent everywhere: I, my mother and sister, and my first generation Malaysian Chinese wife have it.

  19. #94
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    28-06-15
    Posts
    9


    Country: Australia



    B is gorillas, yes?

  20. #95
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    28-06-15
    Posts
    9


    Country: Australia



    Wouldn’t it be fun if Rollo had L21!

  21. #96
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,881

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by GRDTobin View Post
    In Brittany in the 930s, the Loire Viking leaders had Breton names. So there may be more “Celtic rebel” involvement in Viking than is commonly portrayed.
    Amazed. Could you cite your sources and give some names?

  22. #97
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-02-12
    Posts
    17


    Country: USA - Washington



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have updated the R1b-L21 map using the more accurate data for Iberia from Valverde et al. (2016) and for France from Lucotte et al (2015). The new data allowed me to add L21 in Corsica, Sardinia and around Rome, and to increase it in north-western France and around Paris. I have also revised down the frequencies in England, Lowland Scotland, Leinster and Ulster.

    Would you have any info on R-L21>DF13

    I trace one of my ancestral lines to a Person (surname Basse) who migrated from London (we think) to the Colony of Virginia in circa 1653. I've been attempting to put together a hypothesis as to how this flavor R1b1 wound up in London.

    One suggestion was a Pict taken captive by Agricola during his campaign into the north of Britiain.

  23. #98
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,881

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by GRDTobin View Post
    Any data specifically for eastern Cambridgeshire and western Suffolk? My Tweed ancestors have a Brythonic surname, identify with the Welsh, and are recorded in south-east England parish registers since the early 1400s.

    The region was settled by Bretons after 1066.
    I saw a thread about this in ANTHROGENICA FORUM about Suffolk

  24. #99
    Elite member spongetaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-01-11
    Posts
    707


    Country: France



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Sans titre.jpg

    Tolan has posted this on anthrogenica, showing that an early bronze age individual from the region of Montpellier in southern France (PIR3037AB) apparently belonged to L21 DF21
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post670205

  25. #100
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,473


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Sans titre.jpg

    Tolan has posted this on anthrogenica, showing that an early bronze age individual from the region of Montpellier in southern France (PIR3037AB) apparently belonged to L21 DF21
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post670205
    I think that the only way to determine that PIR3037AB is L21>DF21 (and M222) is based on the paper's mention that it is R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a5c3c1. However the SNP listed in the paper is not found anywhere. For my part I very much doubt that this sample could belong to a relatively recent Irish clade. Surely a mistake.

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •