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Thread: New map of haplogroup R1b-L21 (S145)

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    Arrow New map of haplogroup R1b-L21 (S145)

    There was already a map of R-L21 from the Busby et al. study, but I didn't like it. There was only one shade for all areas under 9%, and the frequency in Northwest France outside Brittany was excessive. So here is the Eupedia version, improved.

    Note that I had to infer the percentage for Iceland based on Western Norway and increasing a bit the frequency since R1b is higher in Iceland than in Norway and it is highly probable that some Irish or Scottish people accompanied the Vikings to Iceland (this was already suggested by mtDNA studies).

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    Fantastic. Thanks for uploading this, Maciamo.

    EDIT: I must say that this now matches a lot better with the Atlantic Bronze Age (at least, the northern part of it) than the map from the Busby study. What I wonder is, where did the spot in the western Alps / Rhone area go to? Both Busby et al. and much earlier Myres et al. had peaks around there.

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    Thanks for the map Maciamo
    With that distribution (especially the big founder effect in the British islands), it's really hard to find where the subclade originated

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Fantastic. Thanks for uploading this, Maciamo.

    EDIT: I must say that this now matches a lot better with the Atlantic Bronze Age (at least, the northern part of it) than the map from the Busby study. What I wonder is, where did the spot in the western Alps / Rhone area go to? Both Busby et al. and much earlier Myres et al. had peaks around there.
    I should have mentioned that I am not using only the data from Busby and Myres, but compare it to other data available here and there and cut out inconsistencies, especially if they are based on a small sample size (under 100). For Switzerland for instance I averaged Busby's data for the whole country because each region only had about 30 samples, which is meaningless and is the best way of having "false hotspots". I also compared the data for other haplogroups and other R1b subclades. There were only 31 samples from the Alpes de Haute Provence, so I am pretty sure that the 19.4% in Busby et al. is a false hotspot. It didn't make sense anyway. Myres didn't have any specific data for that region - only 14 samples for all West France !

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Thanks for the map Maciamo
    With that distribution (especially the big founder effect in the British islands), it's really hard to find where the subclade originated
    My guess would be Southern Germany, because it seemed to have expanded westward and northward from there. R-L21 is found almost exclusively among Celtic and Germanic populations. The Italics didn't seem to have it (the low frequencies under 1% in Italy is surely from later migrations during the Roman period or the Völkerwanderung).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Note that I had to infer the percentage for Iceland based on Western Norway and increasing a bit the frequency since R1b is higher in Iceland than in Norway and it is highly probable that some Irish or Scottish people accompanied the Vikings to Iceland (this was already suggested by mtDNA studies).
    I wanted to comment on the peaks in Iceland and Norway as well: I absolutely agree that this must be of Goidelic origin because R1-L21's subclade R1b-M222 (which evolved 'indigenously' in Ireland and is tied with the Goidelic peoples) is found in Iceland as well. There would have been the possibility of some kind of very ancient bronze age migration (very unlikely), but I would have expected M222 to be absent in Norway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I wanted to comment on the peaks in Iceland and Norway as well: I absolutely agree that this must be of Goidelic origin because R1-L21's subclade R1b-M222 (which evolved 'indigenously' in Ireland and is tied with the Goidelic peoples) is found in Iceland as well. There would have been the possibility of some kind of very ancient bronze age migration (very unlikely), but I would have expected M222 to be absent in Norway.
    On the contrary I expect M222 to be present in Norway because most of the Norwegian L21 is probably of Irish or Scottish origin. Norwegian Vikings didn't just travel once to Iceland and settle there without ever coming back. They roamed the North Sea, hopping back and forth from island to island (Shetlands, Orkney, Isle of Man, Ireland, Iceland, even Greenland for a while) and created a trade network with Norway itself. It seems only natural that some indigenous Celts would have become assimilated to the new Viking community. I have read somewhere that some Irish were taken as slaves by the Vikings back to Norway. Whether this is true or not, I expect that most if not all of the L21 in Norway is of Goidelic origin. That would also explain the higher frequency of R1b and darker hair in Southwest Norway.

    I first thought of a Bronze Age Celtic migration from modern Germany to Norway, but there would have been more S28 and less L21. It doesn't rule out that the S28 in Scandinavia could have come during a northward expansion of Hallstatt or La Tène people, but it had in any case less impact than the Goidelic population that came to Norway during the Middle Ages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    On the contrary I expect M222 to be present in Norway because most of the Norwegian L21 is probably of Irish or Scottish origin. Norwegian Vikings didn't just travel once to Iceland and settle there without ever coming back. They roamed the North Sea, hopping back and forth from island to island (Shetlands, Orkney, Isle of Man, Ireland, Iceland, even Greenland for a while) and created a trade network with Norway itself. It seems only natural that some indigenous Celts would have become assimilated to the new Viking community. I have read somewhere that some Irish were taken as slaves by the Vikings back to Norway. Whether this is true or not, I expect that most if not all of the L21 in Norway is of Goidelic origin. That would also explain the higher frequency of R1b and darker hair in Southwest Norway.
    Oh, I absolutely agree! Regarding slaves, it is a historic fact that the Vikings did practice slave trade.

    By the way, I seem to recall Myres did have M222 in Norway on his map(s).

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    Great map, lot better then what it's in the recent report.

    With regards to vikings here's also the fact that the Vikings in Ireland assimilated quite readily and formed groups such as the "Gall-Ghael" (Gall Gaedhel), which were basically gaelicised Vikings. For example the L21 subclade L159.2 is associated with Leinster in Ireland (sepcifically ruling families). It's been found around the Irish sea, Western Scotland and in Norway and some samples from Denmark. Of course Leinster and the Norse Kingdom of Dublin were intimately linked for a long time which can be seen in the marriages between the "royalty" of both.

    Given the heavy involvement of Vikings in Scotlands Western Isles and Mann it's not surprising that traffic went both ways, especially as they were generally all "gaelicised" over time.

    With regards to Norway on that report 1.4% (n=138) showed up as M222+, the Swedish sample from Malmo likewise had a M222+ of 1.4% (n=139), it didn't show up in the three Danish groups though.

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    I should point out I'm negative for nearly all SNP's under L21. I still have couple more to order. Current status:

    P312+, L21+ L459+, M37-, M222-, P66-, L9-, L10-, L96-, L130,- L144-, L159.2-, L192-, L193-, L195-, L226-, P314.2-, L69-, L302-, L319.1-, L371-, L513-, L526-, L554-, L555- L564-, L580-, L583-, DF21-, DF5-, Z253-, L643-, L679-

    L459 is equivalent to L21 at the moment as far as we know. No L21+ man has been found who is L459-

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    Hi, I'm new to the forum, and just very recently had my haplogroup classified as R1b-L21/S145. With my background, which is a sixteen hundreds very regular farmers and fishermen family from Central Norway (Trøndelag), I find this classification highly fascinating. And it's especially interesting if it could really be the case that this haplogroup shoud be originating in Ireland or Scotland. It is true as it is said above that vikings raided and traded these areas extensively in the viking time, and the use of slaves (called 'trellir' in norse language) at the time is in fact documented in written records from the 13th century, and in particular in the southwest part of the country. To be even more specific, there's a passage in the Olav Tryggvason's or Olav Haraldsson's saga (from about 1000 AD) specifically describing how the local chief Erlings Skjalgsson at Sola (close to Stavanger in Rogaland) set his slaves to work in his fields. Roughly hundred years later almost all slavery in Norway was abolished.
    Norway got its name from the costal trading route (the way to the north or the North Way), and a lot of the power struggle between the chiefs and the kings in the viking time and later was about the control of this trading route. consequently it wouldn't be unnatural at all that traces of the L21 could be found spreading from the northwest coast to other costal areas along the North Way, including Trøndelag...
    A very facinating prospect indeed!

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    It's stricking to see how dominant R1b L21 is in Ireland . It's kind of unique in the world to have such a homogeneous population in a country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    It's stricking to see how dominant R1b L21 is in Ireland . It's kind of unique in the world to have such a homogeneous population in a country.
    Wales too. The Y-DNA remnants of pre-R1b-L21 peoples (Passage Tomb makers? Grooved Ware culture?) is apparently tiny, possibly even more drastically tiny than pre-R1b Y-DNA tends to be in the rest of Western Europe.

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    Not only that but specific clades of L21 are also very large in an Irish context. Obviously everyone knows M222 (Uí Néill/Connachta) but there also L226 (Dál gCais) and the really big new clade is DF21, so far potentially 20% of all L21 belongs to DF21 which was recently added to the draft tree. There have been DF21+ men found in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England, Netherlands and Scandinavia.

    Both the "Clann Colla" (Null 425 -- Aírghilla) and Little Scots Cluster are DF21+ for example, that and it's been found that P314.2 is a subclade of it. Some of the estimates reckon it's at least 3,000 years old. The other big new one is L513 which is also has samples from the continent and like DF21 is associated with the Aírghilla in an Irish context.

    Welsh modal is marked by L371 which was recently added as well as: R1b1a2a1a1b4i

    http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

    I've read figures of about 70-75% of all Irishmen are L21+

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Wales too. The Y-DNA remnants of pre-R1b-L21 peoples (Passage Tomb makers? Grooved Ware culture?) is apparently tiny, possibly even more drastically tiny than pre-R1b Y-DNA tends to be in the rest of Western Europe.
    Indeed, it looks like Western Britain is the only place in Europe where Indo Europeanisation resulted in the total replacement of the former population. Do you have an estimation for L21 arrival in Britain?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I wanted to comment on the peaks in Iceland and Norway as well: I absolutely agree that this must be of Goidelic origin because R1-L21's subclade R1b-M222 (which evolved 'indigenously' in Ireland and is tied with the Goidelic peoples) is found in Iceland as well. There would have been the possibility of some kind of very ancient bronze age migration (very unlikely), but I would have expected M222 to be absent in Norway.
    M222 appears to be older in Northern England and Southern Scotland then in Ireland. Interesting enough this ties in with the pseudo-history/mythology when it comes to ancestry of the broader Connachta. Tuathal Teachtmar having fled in his mother's womb back to Alba (Scotland -- but in this context Britain) and come back as an adult to regain his rightful throne etc etc. Pure mythology but probably reflecting connections into Northern Britain. The bulk of 'La Tène' style finds are in the Northern half of Ireland (line drawn across middle from Galway to Dublin) which of course maps with the idea of "Leath Conn" (Conn's half) which was dominated by the Connachta and their kinsmen the Uí Néill. M222+ shows up in dynastical groups with connections to this wider grouping.



    The connection through Northern Britain is also seen with DF21 which is spread all along west side of Britain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    Not only that but specific clades of L21 are also very large in an Irish context. Obviously everyone knows M222 (Uí Néill/Connachta) but there also L226 (Dál gCais) and the really big new clade is DF21, so far potentially 20% of all L21 belongs to DF21 which was recently added to the draft tree. There have been DF21+ men found in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England, Netherlands and Scandinavia.
    To which subclade belong most of L21 Irishmen? DF21 or M222?
    It would be interesting to see the influence of the clan on the formation of new subclade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Indeed, it looks like Western Britain is the only place in Europe where Indo Europeanisation resulted in the total replacement of the former population. Do you have an estimation for L21 arrival in Britain?
    I'm personally torn between two possible dates of arrival:

    - the Wessex Culture (early 2nd millennium BC), and associated with it the Aremorican Tumuli. What in my opinion speaks against it is the apparent continuity with earlier Aboriginal cultures in the Atlantic region (notably, the final constructions at Stone Henge take place during this period).

    - A far better candidate is the later Atlantic Bronze culture, beginning in the 13th century BC (coinciding with the great upheavals occuring in the Eastern Mediterranean). This period is a great, Europe-wide upheaval, much better to imagine that such a large-scale population replacement would have taken place in Britain and Ireland.

    - Any later date would be unreasonable in my opinion. In particular, I think that R1b-U152 started arriving in Britain in the 8th century BC with the spread of iron-working.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Indeed, it looks like Western Britain is the only place in Europe where Indo Europeanisation resulted in the total replacement of the former population. Do you have an estimation for L21 arrival in Britain?
    I've thought about it and I keep coming back to the Bronze Age, although it seems unlikely to me that the Beaker people would have been so R1b-L21 dominant. Perhaps it came from Beaker people who had internal genetic drift reinforcing their R1b-L21 component? With perhaps more continental R1b-L21 coming over in later Iron Age and later migrations? But R1b-U152 is so rare in Wales and Ireland that those regions in particular don't seem to have really been affected by Iron Age migrations (if we link R1b-U152 to Halstatt/La Tene culture)... odd because Wales speaks a P-Celtic language. Perhaps that is just the result of purely cultural transmission.

    Edit: FWIW I concur with Taranis that Early Bronze Age Wessex Culture is within range as well, at least for the very earliest R1b-L21, if not the expansion to modern levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I've thought about it and I keep coming back to the Bronze Age, although it seems unlikely to me that the Beaker people would have been so R1b-L21 dominant. Perhaps it came from Beaker people who had internal genetic drift reinforcing their R1b-L21 component? With perhaps more continental R1b-L21 coming over in later Iron Age and later migrations? But R1b-U152 is so rare in Wales and Ireland that those regions in particular don't seem to have really been affected by Iron Age migrations (if we link R1b-U152 to Halstatt/La Tene culture)... odd because Wales speaks a P-Celtic language. Perhaps that is just the result of purely cultural transmission.
    Actually, in regard for Britain, it would make sense. Most of the Celtic tribes we can link to the mainland are found on the East coast (including the Brigantes and the Parisii relatively far in the north), which matches the distribution of U152 in britain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Actually, in regard for Britain, it would make sense. Most of the Celtic tribes we can link to the mainland are found on the East coast (including the Brigantes and the Parisii relatively far in the north), which matches the distribution of U152 in britain.
    So do you think we're comfortable calling Welsh people "native Goidelic peoples who picked up P-Celtic from their Eastern neighbors"?

    Cornwall is traditionally P-Celtic as well but has higher R1b-U152, so we probably can't say quite the same thing for them, although they also have a ton of R1b-L21.

    Or is P-Celtic earlier?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I'm personally torn between two possible dates of arrival:

    - the Wessex Culture (early 2nd millennium BC), and associated with it the Aremorican Tumuli. What in my opinion speaks against it is the apparent continuity with earlier Aboriginal cultures in the Atlantic region (notably, the final constructions at Stone Henge take place during this period).

    - A far better candidate is the later Atlantic Bronze culture, beginning in the 13th century BC (coinciding with the great upheavals occuring in the Eastern Mediterranean). This period is a great, Europe-wide upheaval, much better to imagine that such a large-scale population replacement would have taken place in Britain and Ireland.

    - Any later date would be unreasonable in my opinion. In particular, I think that R1b-U152 started arriving in Britain in the 8th century BC with the spread of iron-working.
    The Bronze age and its upheaval seems a better candidate as it's a much more violent era than the Beaker's time. I read that Irish people lack indigeneous mtdna like H1 and H3 which means that L21 didn't really mix with the former population but rather eradicated it.

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    I found the Maciamo's post:


    Ireland is an interesting case because it is the remotest part of Europe from the Pontic-Caspian region, and yet one where R1b makes up over 80% of male lineages. I wasn't expecting to find a link because I thought that R1b men would have intermarried to frequently with local European women for steppe mtDNA to survive in substantial level in the westernmost region of Europe.

    Helgason's study gives respectively 2.34% of I, 0.78% of U2, 0% of U3, 2.34% of U4 and 2.34% of W. 7.80% in total. Compared with other Western European countries, Ireland has more steppe/Indo-European mtDNA than France/Italy (5.26%), Iberia (5.4%), Scandinavia (6.52%) or England/Wales (7.69%), and only slightly less than Germany (8.74%) and the Alps (Austria/Switzerland, 9.04%).

    H1, a haplogroup typical of the Paleolithic Western European population is surprisingly low in Ireland - in fact lower than anywhere else in Europe except Bulgaria and Turkey. This could mean that a major population replacement happened in Ireland, not just for paternal linages but also maternal ones.
    Actually the Indo European mtdna only makes 7.80% of the whole Irish mtdna but it still higher than England/Wales and Scandinavia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    So do you think we're comfortable calling Welsh people "native Goidelic peoples who picked up P-Celtic from their Eastern neighbors"?

    Cornwall is traditionally P-Celtic as well but has higher R1b-U152, so we probably can't say quite the same thing for them, although they also have a ton of R1b-L21.

    Or is P-Celtic earlier?
    Well the question should be more framed along the lines of did the consonant shift spread along with La Tène material culture among the pre-existing population who were speaking a "dialect" closer to "Proto-Celtic" at the time. You don't necessarily need a "conquest"/population change given that both languages would have been closely related to each other at the time. I would think that outside of core area in the south-east/east of the Pennines mountains that acculturation is the main pushing factor in Britain.


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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    So do you think we're comfortable calling Welsh people "native Goidelic peoples who picked up P-Celtic from their Eastern neighbors"?

    Cornwall is traditionally P-Celtic as well but has higher R1b-U152, so we probably can't say quite the same thing for them, although they also have a ton of R1b-L21.
    Well, I/we really don't know. I'm always sceptic with the whole "cultural transmission" concept (primarily because it has been proven wrong in too many cases, take a look at the arrival of agriculture in Europe). What I do know, and what is clear that Britain in the 1st century AD was, from north to south, completely P-Celtic. Q-Celtic (ie, Goidelic) didn't arrive back in Britain until the Migrations Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    Well the question should be more framed along the lines of did the consonant shift spread along with La Tène material culture among the pre-existing population who were speaking a "dialect" closer to "Proto-Celtic" at the time. You don't necessarily need a "conquest"/population change given that both languages would have been closely related to each other at the time. I would think that outside of core area in the south-east/east of the Pennines mountains that acculturation is the main pushing factor in Britain.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...s_edited-1.jpg
    As I explained in the thread/post below, there is a bit more to the Q/P shift than dialect. There's a set of common sound laws which are absent in Goidelic:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post380460

    You definitely have a valid point about the Pennines because it largely matches (from what I have seen so far) the distribution/limitations of the extend of U152. The question is if the ancient Britons did only adopt these innovations through language contact, or if there was a common "Britanno-Gallic" stage of evolution. The discussion could be called essentially similar to the question about wether there was an Italo-Celtic, Balto-Slavic or Indo-Iranic language stage (though support for the latter two is much more firm). Having said this, at the time the shifts did happen, it probably wasn't much more drastic than the High German consonant shift, for comparison.

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