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Thread: Autosomal map : Mediterranean admixture (from Dodecad)

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    Since Northwest-European-admixture is very rare in the Levant, I came to the next conclusion:

    Mediterranean admixture = native to South Europe (Europeans) + native to Africa (north Africans) + native to the Semites from the Levant (like Jews, Assyrians, Lebanese etc.)

    Think about it and please share your thougts!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Since Northwest-European-admixture is very rare in the Levant, I came to the next conclusion:

    Mediterranean admixture = native to South Europe (Europeans) + native to Africa (north Africans) + native to the Semites from the Levant (like Jews, Assyrians, Lebanese etc.)

    Think about it and please share your thougts!

    I think the Mediterranean element represents Paleolithic Southern Europeans while in Europe, West Asian and to a lesser extent Southwest Asian represent Neolithic movements from the Near East (and simultaneously North African components would come in small amount into Southwest Europe).

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    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    I think the Mediterranean element represents Paleolithic Southern Europeans while in Europe, West Asian and to a lesser extent Southwest Asian represent Neolithic movements from the Near East (and simultaneously North African components would come in small amount into Southwest Europe).
    Thank you for your reply!

    But there's just way to much Mediterranean admixture in Africa. Also Semites who are originaly from the Levant, like Jews, Palestinians, Jordanians, Assyrians, Lebanese have very much of these admixture too, while non-semitic folks in the region, like Iranians and Caucasians don't have that much of it.

    I mean Jews have for about 35% of it while Adygei only 8,3%.

    Is the Mediterranean admixture JEWISH, since it's the most important and biggest component in them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Thank you for your reply!

    But there's just way to much Mediterranean admixture in Africa. Also Semites who are originaly from the Levant, like Jews, Palestinians, Jordanians, Assyrians, Lebanese have very much of these admixture too, while non-semitic folks in the region, like Iranians and Caucasians don't have that much of it.

    I mean Jews have for about 35% of it while Adygei only 8,3%.

    Is the Mediterranean admixture JEWISH, since it's the most important and biggest component in them?
    I don't think so because it is also the largest component in Italians and Greeks. Also North Africans and Iberians have it too in great amounts so maybe it is a pan-Mediterranean component.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    I don't think so because it is also the largest component in Italians and Greeks. Also North Africans and Iberians have it too in great amounts so maybe it is a pan-Mediterranean component.
    I do agree with you!

    I don't think that Mediterranean component belongs exclusively to South Europe, but also belongs (is native) to Africans and Semites in the Levant.

    I think in Europe it is South European.
    In Africa it's African.
    And in the Levant it's Semtic.

    Accroding to me it would make more sence if they would split Mediterranean admixture in 3 parts: Mediterranean-S_Euro, Mediterranean-Afro and Mediterranean-Asia!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I do agree with you!

    I don't think that Mediterranean component belongs exclusively to South Europe, but also belongs (is native) to Africans and Semites in the Levant.

    I think in Europe it is South European.
    In Africa it's African.
    And in the Levant it's Semtic.

    Accroding to me it would make more sence if they would split Mediterranean admixture in 3 parts: Mediterranean-S_Euro, Mediterranean-Afro and Mediterranean-Asia!
    I'd like to see Southwest as opposed to Southeast Europe quantified.

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    Yeah, that would be even greater!

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    Because I think what would happen is, Iberia would be strongly a mixture of NW European, SW European, with minor North African, whereas Greece would be a mixture of SE European, East European, and West Asian, with Italy depending on the region differing in one or the other direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    Because I think what would happen is, Iberia would be strongly a mixture of NW European, SW European, with minor North African, whereas Greece would be a mixture of SE European, East European, and West Asian, with Italy depending on the region differing in one or the other direction.
    Ok.

    I guess that folks from Southwest Europe, would have 75% of Southwest European Mediterranean component, 15% of Southeast European Mediterranean component and 10% of African Mediterranean component.

    While people on the other part of the sea in the Levant, like Labanese would have 70% of Asian Mediterranean component, 15% of Southeast European Mediterranean component and 15% of African Mediterranean component.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Interesting map!

    I believe that the Mediterranean admixture in most folks in Asia & Africa is not from Europe!
    If it was from Europe, 'Northwest European admixture' was there in very high ammounts too!

    I believe that the Mediterranean admixture in Asia is Semitic/Jewish and native to the Levant, since it's very high among the native people of the Levant, but Northwest-European-admixture is almost abscent there! So it's not from Europe!
    That's exactly why I also think that the Mediterranean admixture comprises some non-European element present as much in the Middle East as in North Africa. The only one that matches these criteria is E-M78. However I am pretty sure that the Mediterranean admixture can be split in two or even three separate admixtures, just like the Northwest European. This should split more neatly the E-M78 component from the I2a (+ G2a ?) component in the Mediterranean admixture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Since Northwest-European-admixture is very rare in the Levant, I came to the next conclusion:

    Mediterranean admixture = native to South Europe (Europeans) + native to Africa (north Africans) + native to the Semites from the Levant (like Jews, Assyrians, Lebanese etc.)

    Think about it and please share your thougts!
    Assyrians are not from the Levant.

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    I can't understand the insistance to put such non European element in the Mediterranean admixture, when there are the same or more evidences to do so in the West and the East European. I agree the Mediterranean cluster can be devided in two, but not necesarily must include haplogroup E. MtDNA in North Africa could perfectly explain the Mediterranean element there.

    Some subclades of J2 (J2b and perhaps another one) and G2a subclades can perfectly fit in an Eastern Mediterranean element.
    Last edited by Knovas; 24-09-11 at 16:53.

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    Maciamo congratulation for another great work but there are some amendments. The Mediterranean element in reality reaches 20-21% all the way into West Iran. I myself know one person from the border of Iran-Iraq he has 22% Mediterranean. Just like many scientist had found out earlier the Zagros seems like a barrier of Iran.

    The red points show where this individual is from. And inside the black framed border, there is definitely 20-21% Mediterranean from my observation and the results I have seen so far. The reason why the Kurd_D cluster has only 19,8% is because there are only 5 individuals in that project so far and one of them is rather an outsider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Maciamo congratulation for another great work but there are some amendments. The Mediterranean element in reality reaches 20-21% all the way into West Iran. I myself know one person from the border of Iran-Iraq he has 22% Mediterranean. Just like many scientist had found out earlier the Zagros seems like a barrier of Iran.

    The red points show where this individual is from. And inside the black framed border, there is definitely 20-21% Mediterranean from my observation and the results I have seen so far. The reason why the Kurd_D cluster has only 19,8% is because there are only 5 individuals in that project so far and one of them is rather an outsider.
    Iraq was the only country missing in the data list from the Middle East, so it's good to know. Does the person you know from the Iraq-Iran border have a Dodecad number ? If not could you send me a PM with the admixtures percentages ?

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    Here the Eastern European admixture too:

    DOD-v3-East-European2-1024x660.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Thank you for your reply!

    But there's just way to much Mediterranean admixture in Africa. Also Semites who are originaly from the Levant, like Jews, Palestinians, Jordanians, Assyrians, Lebanese have very much of these admixture too, while non-semitic folks in the region, like Iranians and Caucasians don't have that much of it.

    I mean Jews have for about 35% of it while Adygei only 8,3%.

    Is the Mediterranean admixture JEWISH, since it's the most important and biggest component in them?
    The meditarreanean element in North-Africa could be explained by the presence of south-european mtDNA such as H1,H3,V it's definately paleolithic.

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    According to the study I posted in the other thread, H1 + H3 in North Africa represent 55%. V is not included, I found a source also posted giving +8%. So it's the most likely explanation.

    E-M78, in my opinion, simply diluted and was replaced by West Asian, Southwest Asian, and indigineous Southern Europeans. However, I agree to consider J2 and G2a subcaldes to be part of an Eastern Mediterranean/Southeast European element, as well as MtDNA haplogroups.

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    By the way the northern strip of North-Africa is wrong, since Northern-Moroccans have 28% mediterranean, should be in the 20-30% range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Iraq was the only country missing in the data list from the Middle East, so it's good to know. Does the person you know from the Iraq-Iran border have a Dodecad number ? If not could you send me a PM with the admixtures percentages ?
    I have sent you a PM.

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    Due to its geographic spread I would bet that with the Mediterranean component, it's not so much it has non-European elements to it but whatever that component is, obviously transcends continental boundaries and represents shared origin throughout, thus I'd bet this component is one of the oldest.

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    Probably the oldest one, that's the main reason. West and East European are also quite widespread. Between the Nepalese for example you find more West and East European than Mediterranean, and the same happens between the Indians. It does not necesarily mean you must include non European influence.

    For example, Catalans have very high Mediterranean, and the little haplogroup E it is obviously read as Northwest African. It means the low Eastern Mediterranen between them can't be atributted to E peoples, it must be atributed to some G2a's, J2's (possibly J2b) and perhaps R1b-L11.

    The fact is Iberians are mainly Southwestern, so they have little to do with Eastern Mediterranean peoples. Of course, I guess we carry some Eastern Mediterranean/Southeast European, but surely the lowest in all Southern Europe. Without considering the fact there's very low West Asian and Southwest Asian in Iberia, wich makes this even less significant. Take your own conclusions.

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    Well, we have some new information about this mysterious mediterranean component. Today Dienekes made an extra-polation with other project components (MDLP) using zombies (virtual people who are 100% one component) and the results for this Mediterranean component is surprising. The Celto-Germanic component of MDLP is, when translated to Dodecad mostly Mediterranean , and the other way around the Mediterranean of Dodecad is a mix of Celto-Germanic, Balto-Slavic, and Balkans-Anatolia

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    The Mediterranean is possible to be read in different ways, like the latest Calculator shows. Seems clear that the SNP's choiced by Dienekes showed the Southwestern side, since it's the most dominant in Western Europe from South to North in the specific division. For this reason, I think admixture selected this variant before Southeastern. And also, because the last one needs to be broken down properly, and separated from Southwest Asian as clearly as possible.

    For Western Europe the latest Euro7 Calculator gives a good idea, but as you go Eastern direction, more difficult is to make the interpretation. We'll see if the new Dodecad v4 gives a more clear idea, hoping it will be based on the same components.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Interesting map!

    I believe that the Mediterranean admixture in most folks in Asia & Africa is not from Europe!
    If it was from Europe, 'Northwest European admixture' was there in very high ammounts too!

    I believe that the Mediterranean admixture in Asia is Semitic/Jewish and native to the Levant, since it's very high among the native people of the Levant, but Northwest-European-admixture is almost abscent there! So it's not from Europe!

    I mean these 2 maps don't correlate with each other outside Europe!


    why did they must correlate one with another? in every country it could have been a lot of different historic events and colonization, not?
    this "mediterranean" admixture is partially linked, I suppose, to climate, plagues, and very influenced too by mothers absent from the Y-DNA surveys. HG's are statistically linked to others genes, biallelic, and it's interesting and very tempting trying to see linked repartitions in today populations (I do too) - but the very wide spread HG's did setlle a long time ago yet in very far countries and their bearers sometimes (not evreytime) mixed with populations and bearers of other non close Hg's - with time they could have acquirred a lot of "foreign" autosomals - I believe that I2a1 (old nom. sorry) could have taken some Western mediterranean traits as could do E1b-V78 - but I should be curious to know on what extensive samples are founded these studies, because some genes could have been in a very ancient shared part of the genome in some populations, even irrespective to present days geography an climate, and to old to tell something us at the scale of Proto-History. Somewhat, these "mediterranean" genes evoque for a part old autochtonous population of the LGM refuges West of Ukraina and Caucasus...
    Aside of that, I red some surveys telling us that as a whole mt DNA was not so different between the whole populations of Mediterranée, West or East, included Near-Eastern ones, and that the gape is more between Near-Easterners and South Arabic regions. What do you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    Due to its geographic spread I would bet that with the Mediterranean component, it's not so much it has non-European elements to it but whatever that component is, obviously transcends continental boundaries and represents shared origin throughout, thus I'd bet this component is one of the oldest.
    Good thoughts. I think "Mediterranean admixture" genetically represents the epipalaeolithic Combe-Capelle (9500 y old) and partially even Cro-Magnons. I know that the traditional assumption is that those Palaeos mainly moved back to the north when the ice melted, such that today many North-West Europeans consider themselves to be descendants of Palaeolithic Europeans. I question that. Why should Palaeos move back completely? I think most of them have adapted to the mild climate of South Europe, while only few went back to the north. From skull finds we know that Cro-Magnon skull was not the only skull shape during palaeolithic, but also Combe-Capelle was very important, although it was just from the Epipalaeolithic (7600 BC) and possibly did not yet exist in europe before. Yet it could have merged with the earlier Cro-Magnons. Combe-Capelle is very different from Cro-Magnon skulls: It is long-faced, roundish and dolichocephalic, which as a basic type is the dominant type in many mediterranean countries: Portugal, Spain, Sardinia, Bulgaria.

    Pro-Arguments:

    - The map for autosomal mediterranean admixture indicates an epicentre in western mediterranean, suggesting to be autochtonous for a long time, rather than being neolithic.

    - The map shows wide and even diffusion of that cluster, even into neighbouring continents, suggesting to have had enough time for diffusion.

    - Mediterranean cluster significantly extends to North-West Europe, a region that has been less covered by ice.

    - No reason why to believe that those glacial refuge areas have been entirely abandoned by those refugees.

    Conclusion: North-West-Europeans are a mix of "Mediterranean" (late Palaeolithic) and Indo-European "NW-European component" (probably carriers of R1b). BTW, the indo-europeans themselves might well have had a Cro-Magnoid look, according to Gimbutas.

    Last edited by ElHorsto; 19-12-11 at 21:11.

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