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Thread: Autosomal map : African admixture (from Dodecad)

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    Greeks: E + G2a + J1 + J2 + T = 58%

    Most J2 (23%) must be J2b, more likely Southeast Mediterranean. A core of the rest is what makes Greeks 32% Mideast/Cucasus, with a residual 0.5% Northwest African. There is 41% of other haplogroups that probably replaced African autosomes and reduced others.

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    There should be a Middle Eastern map like the one above that combines West and SW Asian.

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    Carthigian empire ruled Iberia with it north africans people, numidians, libyans and carthigians ( pre-roman).

    They also ruled majorca, sicily and sardinia
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Carthigian empire ruled Iberia with it north africans people, numidians, libyans and carthigians ( pre-roman).

    They also ruled majorca, sicily and sardinia
    Guys we are talking about percentages bordering the noise levels ~0.5% african.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Guys we are talking about percentages bordering the noise levels ~0.5% african.
    I do not understand this comment, clearly if the celtic, gothic and vandal invasion did not occur and dilute the percentages , they percentages would have been higher.

    Maybe you should drirect you comment to maciano and tell him to not place and figures less the 5% fro any map

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I do not understand this comment, clearly if the celtic, gothic and vandal invasion did not occur and dilute the percentages , they percentages would have been higher.

    Maybe you should drirect you comment to maciano and tell him to not place and figures less the 5% fro any map
    You clearly have no idea of history. These percentages were already present in times of the Celts or Goths. Why you think Galicia has more E-M81 than Andalusia.

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    So the varieties of E1b1b in Iberia (unlike those in the Balkans) are of the North African variety?

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    Almost all E subclades you can find in Europe originated in North Africa. What essentially changes is the migration way those peoples followed (crossing the sea to get into Iberia or going through the Near East).

    I'm not sure, but probably the vast majority of E sublclades you can find in Iberia are E-M81 and variants, as for example E-M165. This ones should crossed the sea a very long time ago, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Almost all E subclades you can find in Europe originated in North Africa. What essentially changes is the migration way those peopples followed.
    But how then in places like Greece and southern Italy, would you associate E1b1b with something from the Middle East proper and not North African components?

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    Checking the subclade is the best way. The two I mentioned are clearly associated with sea migrants, and have almost all presece in North Africa. But if you check for example E-M78, you can find this one in Northeast Africa, the Near East, Anatolia, The Balkans...so yes, it's possible to make the atributions with very low margin of error, althouth it's also possible some of the others could get to Greece via sea too...who knows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    You clearly have no idea of history. These percentages were already present in times of the Celts or Goths. Why you think Galicia has more E-M81 than Andalusia.
    You did not understand what I meant. Maciano claims that these percentages in iberia are from ancient times and not medieva/renaissance times. I said that if the invasions ( celt ,goth and vandal) from the north did not occur, then the likelyhood of these current percentages would have been higher than what they are today.

    Unless you mean that the celt in iberia where always there and did not come from gallic lands.

    but then again. in ancient times I agree with many scholars that indicate that the celts meant a linguistic associated people and not always a migratory one. So, you have, gallic-celtic, iberic-celtic, italic-celtic, germanic-celtic etc etc.
    I do beleive in time they ( celts ) developed there own culture, But I think that is only where they are present at the moment.

    Tartessains where in the south, be them phoenicians or north africans, and some say they originated in modern romania from the black sea
    http://www.pelasgians.org/website5/32_06.htm

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    I personally think the first inhabitants of Iberia came from North Africa a very long time ago. Or, at least, they entered the Peninsula more or less at the same time the Megalithic Builders went down the Pyrenees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I do not understand this comment, clearly if the celtic, gothic and vandal invasion did not occur and dilute the percentages , they percentages would have been higher.

    Maybe you should drirect you comment to maciano and tell him to not place and figures less the 5% fro any map
    You have to remember that the Iberian Peninsula had hugely significant Paleolithic influences well before the great Neolithic migrations occurred. Therefore, it's not all a simple matter of Celts and Germanics diluting North African DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgundis View Post
    You have to remember that the Iberian Peninsula had hugely significant Paleolithic influences well before the great Neolithic migrations occurred. Therefore, it's not all a simple matter of Celts and Germanics diluting North African DNA.
    Other than Iberia's apparent geographic location which lends itself nicely to a pre-IE LGM refuge, its proximity, or rather distance from the Middle East and Anatolia, suggests North African genetic input since the earliest migrations took place. The word 'diluted' is perhaps condescending but it could explain high R1b penetration with certain isolated regions suggesting elevated levels of pre-IE haplogroups. African genetic input may include introductions from long before the introduction of Celtic influences to more recent times. We should expect some diffusion from North African Muslim invaders but also remember that a large section of the Iberian population converted to Islam. Portuguese diffusion into Spain is also a factor throughout recent times. Many an Angolan and Mozambican with mixed ancestry have integrated themselves into the Iberian community. The relative strength of the region lies in its heterogeneity, this has provided Iberia with a low-cost labor force. As the endemic increasingly began to resist being exploited by the wealthier classes so more South American and African migrants were being used to fill these basic functions. Roman societies used local servants from surrounding areas, we can expect Iberia to have been no different. These may have been to some extent from North African Roman colonies.
    Last edited by Dorianfinder; 17-09-11 at 08:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    I have modified a bit the map. Added Vasco-Navarres, and also the 100 Tuscans (1% African) :
    I have modified the map too for Tuscany too. I was the first map on the Tuscan samples from Dodecad members, but it's true that the HapMap TSI is more representative as there are over 100 samples.

    The few Spanish Basque members I know from the Dodecad Project have over 1% of African admixture. Which members did you take into account ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Greeks: E + G2a + J1 + J2 + T = 58%

    Most J2 (23%) must be J2b, more likely Southeast Mediterranean. A core of the rest is what makes Greeks 32% Mideast/Cucasus, with a residual 0.5% Northwest African. There is 41% of other haplogroups that probably replaced African autosomes and reduced others.
    E1b1b falls under Mediterranean, otherwise nothing makes sense in the comparison between Dodecad admixtures and Y-DNA frequencies. J1 probably should be divided in J1c3 and JxJ1c3, but overall J1 and T are better classified as Southwest Asian.

    For the Greeks, G2a + J2 = 29.5%, much closer to the 26% West Asian admixture. You can't expect a perfect match because these are rough averages. J1 + T = 7.5%, a very good match to the 6.8% Southwest Asian.

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    I don't see the point in putting all J2 to get the West Asian admixture, when most J2 must be J2b in Greece (in my opinion an Eastern Mediterranean marker, nothing to do with the rest). I don't know the percent, but must be significant.

    E1b1b's migrated from North Africa crossing the Near East and Anatolia to get into Greece, almost sure, in a very important number. So they brought quite of the influences they got in their migration way. No way it's likely the original Mediterranean component was "started" by E1b1b peoples, since it doesn't peak in North Africa or neither the Near East. And we must assumne, if you are right, the most part got into Greece via sea (preserving the suposed Mediterranean autosomes)...not probable checking the E-M78 distribution (the main one). It's more likely the African autosomes got diluted and were replaced by West Asian and Southwest Asian, althought haplogroups still survived.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    I don't see the point in putting all J2 to get the West Asian admixture, when most J2 must be J2b in Greece (in my opinion an Eastern Mediterranean marker, nothing to do with the rest). I don't know the percent, but must be significant.
    All J2 originated in West Asia, even J2b.

    E1b1b's migrated from North Africa crossing the Near East and Anatolia to get into Greece, almost sure, in a very important number. So they brought quite of the influences they got in their migration way. No way it's likely the original Mediterranean component was "started" by E1b1b peoples, since it doesn't peak in North Africa or neither the Near East. And we must assumne, if you are right, the most part got into Greece via sea (preserving the suposed Mediterranean autosomes)...not probable checking the E-M78 distribution (the main one). It's more likely the African autosomes got diluted and were replaced by West Asian and Southwest Asian, althought haplogroups still survived.
    Don't think in terms of present distribution but ancient ones. Take out all the J1, J2 and G2a from North Africa and Europe, all the R1a and R1b from Europe.

    Get rid even of E-M81 everywhere, as I think it migrated to Northwest Africa and Iberia well after* the "original" E-M78 people colonised the Mediterranean region and mixed with the indigenous I2a1 people.

    Once you have computed the new frequencies in your head, try to imagine the new map of how the Mediterranean looked like 10,000 years ago (assuming that E-M78 was already in southern Europe). I will help you : E-M78 is everywhere in North Africa (close to 100% frequency) and Northern Europe (variable frequency depending on local I2 communities, but let's keep in mind that Paleolithic/Mesolithic people were mostly nomads or semi-nomads, so the map wouldn't be "frozen" like today).


    *maybe only 5000 or 6000 years ago

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    Absolutly unclear where J2b as clade originated. Pretending to put J2b at the same level of J2 it's not reasonable in any case, there must be an autosomal difference like it or not, the same happens in ALL subclades...this haplogroup is not different from the rest, another thing is you just want to ignore the fact. I know you don't think so, but in my opinion J2b originated in Western Anatolia, or the zones around Macedonia and Greece. That's what makes more sense according to the distribution, it's likely it originated in a "circle" having inside the regions I mention (Western Anatolia-Greece-Macedonia).

    Precisely think in ancient terms is what makes no sense, since those "pure" ethnicities were mixed and almost totally replaced in some regions. With the modern distribution you can see the different migration ways humans followed, but at many points (specially Anatolia and other East Mediterranean populations), you can't expect your "exact" estimations because the contact with many different peoples was very significant. What you obtain is a core of all wich recombines in ALEATORY terms, that simple.

    West European and East European are quite widespread according to the last data too. There's a portrait of the Nepalese showing substantial West and East European...so the argument to atribute such influences to the Mediteranean component because it's widespread and must match somewhere (E haplogroup for example), it's simply not valid. West and Southwest Asian together are very widespread too, and we can continue with similar assumptions all day trying to match results. However, no need to say this, since the distances are very clear in the Dodecad run, and Mediterranean it's enough removed to match Southern Europe, even more than it was before at K=10 as I posted in other threads. So if that's the thought and want to match Mediterranean with haplogroup E, you must accept the distances doesn't support the argument since both West Asian and Southwest Asian are closer to North/East Africa as whole (everywhere in North Africa), and the Middle East (of course), than the Mediterranean actually is.

    Sorry, but the insurmountable incoherence it's perfectly noticeable: http://dodecad.blogspot.com/search?u...max-results=12
    Last edited by Knovas; 17-09-11 at 16:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    You did not understand what I meant. Maciano claims that these percentages in iberia are from ancient times and not medieva/renaissance times. I said that if the invasions ( celt ,goth and vandal) from the north did not occur, then the likelyhood of these current percentages would have been higher than what they are today.

    Unless you mean that the celt in iberia where always there and did not come from gallic lands.

    but then again. in ancient times I agree with many scholars that indicate that the celts meant a linguistic associated people and not always a migratory one. So, you have, gallic-celtic, iberic-celtic, italic-celtic, germanic-celtic etc etc.
    I do beleive in time they ( celts ) developed there own culture, But I think that is only where they are present at the moment.

    Tartessains where in the south, be them phoenicians or north africans, and some say they originated in modern romania from the black sea
    http://www.pelasgians.org/website5/32_06.htm
    WRONG !!! Tartessians spoke an Indo-European language, is impossible the came from Phoenicians or North-Africans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have modified the map too for Tuscany too. I was the first map on the Tuscan samples from Dodecad members, but it's true that the HapMap TSI is more representative as there are over 100 samples.

    The few Spanish Basque members I know from the Dodecad Project have over 1% of African admixture. Which members did you take into account ?
    The bigger sample : French Basques. They have 0.3% african. I imagine pure spanish-basques and navarrese are the same, on average.

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    The French Basques sample comes from the frontier, so they are neither "French" or "Spanish". Perhaps it's good to keep this in mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    you must accept the distances doesn't support the argument since both West Asian and Southwest Asian are closer to North/East Africa as whole (everywhere in North Africa), and the Middle East (of course), than the Mediterranean actually is.
    ?
    What are you talking about?

    Do you ever know where West Asian is, do you even know the capital cities of West Asian countries? Sorry but you are ignorant as hell...

    Egypt is in Norhteast Africa. You can't get a more Northeastern African country.
    Greece and Italy are in South Europe.
    Armenia, Azarbajdjan, Gerogia etc. are in West Asia.

    The distance between Egypt is closer to Italy and Greece than between Egypt and Armenia-Azarbajdjan.

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    Check the GENETIC distance I posted Goga. Geographic assumptions have nothing to do here, so if you are not agree you should go and reply Dienekes'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Check the GENETIC distance I posted Goga. Geographic assumptions have nothing to do here, so if you are not agree you should go and reply Dienekes'.
    You're talking about geography. And you're spreading lies!

    Genetic distance between the Medittearean and North Africa is closer to each other than distance between West Asia and North Africa.

    While the GENETIC distance between West Asia and East Africa is closer to each other than distance between East Africa and the Mediterranean!

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Btw., West Asia don't have any 'African admixture' (as you can see on the map), while the Medittearean especially in West (Southwest Europe & Northwest Africa) has a lot!

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