Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 5 of 10 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 125 of 227

Thread: Ancient place names in Iberia

  1. #101
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,383
    Points
    27,727
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,727, Level: 51
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 923
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany





    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    In that you may be right, however, I do see some problems with this interpretation. First of all, how and when would R1b have reached the Beaker lands? I myself am very skeptic about the palaeolithic R1b theory. We also have tested a fair amount of Neolithic y-DNA in Europe (though is is true that none belonging to the Beaker culture), and none has been R1b-positive. Also, there is a considerable amount of I2 in many parts that belonged to the Beaker Culture (including North Africa, and although the same applies to R1b, almost all of it in North Africa is R-V88). Besides that, the east-west STR cline of R1b in Europe does not apply well with the west-east Beaker expansion.
    First off, let me say that I absolutely agree that Paleolithic R1b is out of the question, and in fact has been out of the question since Y-DNA from Neolithic sites (especially Treilles!) is known. As for how R1b could have reached Western Europe, I must admit that have no firm idea either, but I would argue that this is a general problem because from what I have seen so far, this applies to virtually every scenario. There is certainly the possibility that it arrived by sea (which matches the general idea that Beaker-Bell was a maritime/water-based culture), but at this point I'm also not ruling out the possibility of a very late arrival of R1b during the Bronze Age.

    That is why, in my opinion, an expansion from Gaul any more to the south would not be feasible. Also, I recently thought that L21 could have originated around 3500 years ago between the upper Seine and middle Garonne and then spread west to Aremorica, from which it could have migrated to Britan and (to a lesser extent) Iberia.
    I agree that a migration by land (espcially due to the presence of the Basques, and further eastward, the Iberians) is unlikely. From that perspective I agree that it is more likely that L21 spread via a maritime route.

  2. #102
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-12-09
    Posts
    157
    Points
    3,689
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,689, Level: 17
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 161
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1b5
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    anti-EU/anti-globalization
    Country: Spain - Galicia



    The archaeological evidence does not support the hypothesis of a ‘Celtization’ of Atlantic regions during the Iron Age and there is a dearth of material evidence for such a migratory movement from the North Alpine zone to places like the Iberian Peninsula and the British Isles. More recently, Brun (2006) argued that Celtic first developed as a supra-regional language of Bell Beaker groups. This identification of “the Beaker folk” with Celtic speakers is not new; although rejected by Pokorny (1936, 336), it was endorsed e.g. by Dillon and Chadwick (1967, 214). Vander Linden (2001-2) suggests a connection between the spread of Bell Beakers and early IE languages, and de Hoz (2009, 22) associates them with the so called Old European hydronymy.

    In historical times Celtic languages are spoken in the neighbourhood of non-IE Iberian in Spain, Aquitanian in Gaul, Raetic and Etruscan in northern Italy. For the British Isles, especially for Ireland, it is more often assumed that Celtic was preceded only by non-IE but not by other IE languages, (cf. e.g. Mac Eoin 2007, 123). It can explain the loss of the indo-european *p in this area, except where the indo-european language was imposed severely or preceded for a previous indo-european. Those are the harsh facts about the origin of the protoceltic language, that a lot of people do not want to assume.

    Naturaly, if the preservated *p was located in the central Europe, then we'll assume it as a perfect celtic language concatenated with the indo-european. But how it is in the marginal area of western Spain it is necessary look for cunning arguments to hide what is an anomale comportment ('einem bilabialen frikativen */φ/', when we find *p in the central european areas).

    From an anthropological viewpoint, the earlier bell-beakers groups of Spain domain show more variability. This element can probably be explained by mobility or minor population exchanges during these periods. This does not appear to be the case in Swiss territory and for the later southern assemblages where the apparent uniformity would suggest an accentuation in population exchanges. So, we have seen that the Swiss sites do not mix with the eastern domain, but fit well with the southern domain. The axis of external influences is clearly southern, whether this occurred during the Final Neolithic or the Bell Beaker in western Switzerland (Jocelyne Desideri, 2010).

    'The emergence of the Bell Beaker culture in the western sphere resultted from the displacement of individuals from the Iberian Peninsula into Europa' (Jocelyne Desideri, 2007, 2010).

    The archaeological data have often shown southern influences in the western Swiss Bell Beaker, in particular with respect to funerary practices and domestic structures. The choice of burying the deceased in collective graves is incontestably attached to the cultural sphere of the western domain, the eastern domain practising almost exclusively individual burials'.

    Decorated pottery, and especially the maritime beaker that specifically typifies the Bell Beaker culture, and the "Begleitkeramik" appear to form two inverse currents, the first with a southwest to northeast direction and the second originating in the east and spreading to the west and southwest. The exploitation of copper ores for some objects used in the Alps and found at Petit-Chasseur at Sion also shows relationships with the south. Equally of the stellae and menhires that look spanish models.

    There are not waves from central Europe in western Hispania. The archaelogical continuity is absolute, except in the ends of the calcolithic when the stellae populations change the conditions of the megalithic culture. The density of stellae in the western is simply impressive, with hunderds of examples in the western...and here, in this moment begin the process that reaches with the formation of celtic languages in the bell-beaker area, where L-21 is a simple last mutation of s-116, and not the ancestor of the celts.

  3. #103
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,383
    Points
    27,727
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,727, Level: 51
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 923
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by callaeca View Post
    The archaeological evidence does not support the hypothesis of a ‘Celtization’ of Atlantic regions during the Iron Age and there is a dearth of material evidence for such a migratory movement from the North Alpine zone to places like the Iberian Peninsula and the British Isles. More recently, Brun (2006) argued that Celtic first developed as a supra-regional language of Bell Beaker groups. This identification of “the Beaker folk” with Celtic speakers is not new; although rejected by Pokorny (1936, 336), it was endorsed e.g. by Dillon and Chadwick (1967, 214). Vander Linden (2001-2) suggests a connection between the spread of Bell Beakers and early IE languages, and de Hoz (2009, 22) associates them with the so called Old European hydronymy.
    I would like to point out that the identification of Beaker-Bell as a Proto-Celtic Culture is absolutely impossible due to it's ancientness and vast geographic extend. There is also the criticism that this hypothesis somehow assumes an evolution of the Celtic languages out of thin air, woefully ignoring their commonalities and their interrelationship with the Italic and Germanic languages.

    In historical times Celtic languages are spoken in the neighbourhood of non-IE Iberian in Spain, Aquitanian in Gaul, Raetic and Etruscan in northern Italy. For the British Isles, especially for Ireland, it is more often assumed that Celtic was preceded only by non-IE but not by other IE languages, (cf. e.g. Mac Eoin 2007, 123). It can explain the loss of the indo-european *p in this area, except where the indo-european language was imposed severely or preceded for a previous indo-european. Those are the harsh facts about the origin of the protoceltic language, that a lot of people do not want to assume.

    Naturaly, if the preservated *p was located in the central Europe, then we'll assume it as a perfect celtic language concatenated with the indo-european. But how it is in the marginal area of western Spain it is necessary look for cunning arguments ('einem bilabialen frikativen */φ/') to hide what is an anomale comportment.
    Why do you refuse the possibility of a sucessive shift *p > *φ > *h > Ø, if stages of that shift are actually attested (Lepontic)? I maintain that the loss of *p is by no means more of an 'anomaly' than Grimm's Law is in the Germanic languages.

    There is also the issue that by far the largest number of non-Indo-European languages in Antiquity are found on the Iberian penninsula (Basque-Aquitanian, Iberian, Tartessian), in close proximity to the origin area of the Beaker-Bell Culture. In your scenario we would expect that the Iberian penninsula as a whole was the most thoroughly Indo-Europeanized area. And well, I find it quite funny that the most Celticized area in Antiquity were the British Isles, and not Iberia.

    Also, I would like to point out that both Raetic and Etruscan were non-native languages that probably didn't arrive there until the late bronze age. The linguistic and genetic evidence that the Etruscans were non-native is quite compelling.

    From an anthropological viewpoint, the earlier bell-beakers groups of Spain domain show more variability. This element can probably be explained by mobility or minor population exchanges during these periods. This does not appear to be the case in Swiss territory and for the later southern assemblages where the apparent uniformity would suggest an accentuation in population exchanges. So, we have seen that the Swiss sites do not mix with the eastern domain, but fit well with the southern domain. The axis of external influences is clearly southern, whether this occurred during the Final Neolithic or the Bell Beaker in western Switzerland (Jocelyne Desideri, 2010).

    The emergence of the Bell Beaker culture in the western sphere resultted from the displacement of individuals from the Iberian Peninsula into Europa

    The archaeological data have often shown southern influences in the western Swiss Bell Beaker, in particular with respect to funerary practices and domestic structures. The choice of burying the deceased in collective graves is incontestably attached to the cultural sphere of the western domain, the eastern domain practising almost exclusively individual burials'.

    Decorated pottery, and especially the maritime beaker that specifically typifies the Bell Beaker culture, and the "Begleitkeramik" appear to form two inverse currents, the first with a southwest to northeast direction and the second originating in the east and spreading to the west and southwest. The exploitation of copper ores for some objects used in the Alps and found at Petit-Chasseur at Sion also shows relationships with the south. Equally of the stellae and menhires that look spanish models.
    As I said, the idea that Beaker-Bell may have been an indigenous western European culture is quite compelling.

    EDIT: There is also a very interesting linguistic argument for this, in my opinion: the Basque language possesses it's own (non-IE) terms for metals and metal-working, which should be impossible if metal-working in Western Europe was solely spread by Indo-Europeans.

    There are not waves from central Europe in western Hispania. The archaelogical continuity is absolute, except in the ends of the calcolithic when the stellae populations change the conditions of the megalithic culture. The density of stellae in the western is simply impressive, with hunderds of examples in the western...and here, in this moment begin the process that reaches with the formation of celtic languages in the bell-beaker area, where L-21 is a simple last mutation of s-116, and not the ancestor of the celts.
    Actually, I didn't claim that there were waves from Central Europe into western Hispania (though actually, there is the influence of Hallstatt visible at the start of the iron age), but your claim of an 'absolute continuity' is untenable, in particular Iberia too is subject to the upheavals that occur more or less simultaneously to the Bronze Age collapse.

    Regarding R1b, I suppose that only the time will tell. I would like to point out that the possibility still exists that Beaker-Bell sites fail to turn up any evidence of R1b. In that case, we have to consider a Bronze Age origin of R1b, as well as a Central European dispersion.

    EDIT: One very interesting detail to add is that Western Iberia has relatively low concentrations of R1b (compared against the rest of Iberia and the Atlantic region as a whole), and conversely, some of the highest concentrations of Y-Haplogroups G2a, J1, E1b and T are also found in the west of Iberia.
    Last edited by Taranis; 27-09-11 at 21:23.

  4. #104
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640
    Points
    12,808
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,808, Level: 34
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 542
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by callaeca View Post
    The archaeological evidence does not support the hypothesis of a ‘Celtization’ of Atlantic regions during the Iron Age and there is a dearth of material evidence for such a migratory movement from the North Alpine zone to places like the Iberian Peninsula and the British Isles. More recently, Brun (2006) argued that Celtic first developed as a supra-regional language of Bell Beaker groups. This identification of “the Beaker folk” with Celtic speakers is not new; although rejected by Pokorny (1936, 336), it was endorsed e.g. by Dillon and Chadwick (1967, 214). Vander Linden (2001-2) suggests a connection between the spread of Bell Beakers and early IE languages, and de Hoz (2009, 22) associates them with the so called Old European hydronymy.

    In historical times Celtic languages are spoken in the neighbourhood of non-IE Iberian in Spain, Aquitanian in Gaul, Raetic and Etruscan in northern Italy. For the British Isles, especially for Ireland, it is more often assumed that Celtic was preceded only by non-IE but not by other IE languages, (cf. e.g. Mac Eoin 2007, 123). It can explain the loss of the indo-european *p in this area, except where the indo-european language was imposed severely or preceded for a previous indo-european. Those are the harsh facts about the origin of the protoceltic language, that a lot of people do not want to assume.

    Naturaly, if the preservated *p was located in the central Europe, then we'll assume it as a perfect celtic language concatenated with the indo-european. But how it is in the marginal area of western Spain it is necessary look for cunning arguments to hide what is an anomale comportment ('einem bilabialen frikativen */φ/', when we find *p in the central european areas).

    From an anthropological viewpoint, the earlier bell-beakers groups of Spain domain show more variability. This element can probably be explained by mobility or minor population exchanges during these periods. This does not appear to be the case in Swiss territory and for the later southern assemblages where the apparent uniformity would suggest an accentuation in population exchanges. So, we have seen that the Swiss sites do not mix with the eastern domain, but fit well with the southern domain. The axis of external influences is clearly southern, whether this occurred during the Final Neolithic or the Bell Beaker in western Switzerland (Jocelyne Desideri, 2010).

    'The emergence of the Bell Beaker culture in the western sphere resultted from the displacement of individuals from the Iberian Peninsula into Europa' (Jocelyne Desideri, 2007, 2010).

    The archaeological data have often shown southern influences in the western Swiss Bell Beaker, in particular with respect to funerary practices and domestic structures. The choice of burying the deceased in collective graves is incontestably attached to the cultural sphere of the western domain, the eastern domain practising almost exclusively individual burials'.

    Decorated pottery, and especially the maritime beaker that specifically typifies the Bell Beaker culture, and the "Begleitkeramik" appear to form two inverse currents, the first with a southwest to northeast direction and the second originating in the east and spreading to the west and southwest. The exploitation of copper ores for some objects used in the Alps and found at Petit-Chasseur at Sion also shows relationships with the south. Equally of the stellae and menhires that look spanish models.

    There are not waves from central Europe in western Hispania. The archaelogical continuity is absolute, except in the ends of the calcolithic when the stellae populations change the conditions of the megalithic culture. The density of stellae in the western is simply impressive, with hunderds of examples in the western...and here, in this moment begin the process that reaches with the formation of celtic languages in the bell-beaker area, where L-21 is a simple last mutation of s-116, and not the ancestor of the celts.
    I'm inclined to support your notion that RL-21 is a "final" mutation of S-116. Celtic genetics need to be examined as a continuum. Someone who is RL-21 is not necessarily more Celtic than a person who tests S-116.

  5. #105
    Elite member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points
    Asturrulumbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-09-11
    Location
    Kingston, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    210


    Country: Mexico



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Regarding R1b, I suppose that only the time will tell. I would like to point out that the possibility still exists that Beaker-Bell sites fail to turn up any evidence of R1b. In that case, we have to consider a Bronze Age origin of R1b, as well as a Central European dispersion.

    EDIT: One very interesting detail to add is that Western Iberia has relatively low concentrations of R1b (compared against the rest of Iberia and the Atlantic region as a whole), and conversely, some of the highest concentrations of Y-Haplogroups G2a, J1, E1b and T are also found in the west of Iberia.
    Hmm... I wonder, would it be too much to ask for an aDNA test in a Beaker site any time soon?
    Edit: And anyway, if the Beakers did have R1b, where would it have come from?
    Edit: And in the vein of a hypothetical Beaker migration eastwards from Iberia, could it be that what brought some of the E1b1b to Central and the rest of Western Europe?

  6. #106
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,383
    Points
    27,727
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,727, Level: 51
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 923
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    Hmm... I wonder, would it be too much to ask for an aDNA test in a Beaker site any time soon?
    Edit: And anyway, if the Beakers did have R1b, where would it have come from?
    Well, we've been waiting in vain for well over a year to see results of the Funnelbeaker Culture, and nothing came out of that yet. And all of a sudden, we did get Neolithic results from Treilles in southern France.

    As for the origin of R1b, it's really difficult to say. Part of the answer might be the question where exactly R1b was before it entered Western Europe. Unfortunately, there is no answer on that either.

    I think we need not only Beaker-Bell samples, it would also greatly help to get Neolithic samples from the Balkans and from Anatolia. Of course, the origins of E1b1b are still a mystery, and it would be interesting to see Neolithic / Chalcolithic samples from Iberia for that reason.

  7. #107
    Elite member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points
    Asturrulumbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-09-11
    Location
    Kingston, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    210


    Country: Mexico



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I think we need not only Beaker-Bell samples, it would also greatly help to get Neolithic samples from the Balkans and from Anatolia. Of course, the origins of E1b1b are still a mystery, and it would be interesting to see Neolithic / Chalcolithic samples from Iberia for that reason.
    Oh yes, the genetic affiliation of "Old Europe" is quite sketchy, and probably quite heterogeneous, as it was a melting pot of cultural practises from Anatolia, Central Europe and the Mediterranean.

  8. #108
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-12-09
    Posts
    157
    Points
    3,689
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,689, Level: 17
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 161
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1b5
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    anti-EU/anti-globalization
    Country: Spain - Galicia



    When examples of preserved *p are found with some frequency within Celtic-speaking territory, they are accordingly referred to IE but pre-Celtic substrata, which have been labeled e.g. Ligurian, Illyrian or Old European. But the postulated IE substratum languages in western Europe tend to remain shadowy, exactly because the recognizable linguistic stratum is Celtic.

    All models must obviously assume that Celtic developed in an area, where an IE language was already spoken, at least the IE language which was its direct ancestor. Whether a specific intermediate sub-branch, such as Italo-Celtic, can be reconstructed, is debated, cf. de Vaan 2008, 5, Isaac 2007, 94.

    Highlighting heterogeneity rather than homogeneity has been effective in deconstructing the notion of a single Bell Beaker ‘culture’ (e.g. see Besse 2004; Czebreszuk (ed.) 2004; Vander Linden 2006). While this has encouraged the main focus of Bell Beaker studies to revolve around individual regional developments, it has also unwittingly resulted in wider connections between different Bell Beaker using areas being played-down, ignored or broken completely. The spread of the Beaker ‘package’ across Europe emphasises fluvial and maritime routes of interaction and exchange, and its distribution shows pockets of adoption along coastal zones and main river arteries.

    At present, most of the earliest radiocarbon dates for Bell Beakers come from Portugal, in particular the Tagus estuary, and it is also here that the densest concentration of International (notably Maritime) style Bell Beakers are known (Cardoso and Soares 1990-1992; Martínez et al. 1996, 105-110; Müller and van Willigen 2001). Furthermore, some of the earliest dates for copper mining and smelting in western Europe have come from Iberia. Copper extraction has been identified at the mines of El Aramo and El Milagro, both in northern Spain (Blas 1998). Evidence for on-site metallurgy has also been recovered from many of the Chalcolithic hillforts along the Atlantic coast of Portugal, almost always in contexts associated with Beakers and dating from c. 2600BC onwards (Cardoso 2001; Müller and Cardoso 2008; Soares and Araújo 1994). Recent excavations at the fortified settlement of Cabezo Juré, in the mining district of Huelva, south-west Spain, have revealed evidence of potentially one of the earliest and most complex copper metallurgical sites in western Europe, dating from c. 2900BC (Nocete 2006).

    Since it is unlikely that metallurgy was invented independently in the British Isles (e.g. see Ottaway and Roberts 2008; Roberts 2008), it is feasible that the dissemination of copper and bronze technology came from western Iberia, either directly or indirectly via France (Alday Ruíz 1999). The earliest attested copper mining from the British Isles comes from Ross Island in south-west Ireland, dating from c. 2400 BC (O’Brien 1995; 2001).

    In this context, Te adoption of such estatus markers between the Elites would have involved the use of a family of languages that allowed to the interunderstanding to long distance, with establishments of hillforts in the main fluvial courses and coastal steps (Gulf of Cadiz, Estuary of the Tajo, Galicia, Armórica, Estuary of the Rhone…). According to the regions, at where the restricted products arrived, the local languages would have been influenced by the 'international' language of the social elites, organized in networks of interchange and alliances, this is the cause of the viability to appearance of the celtic language varieties, when the distincts restrictive products are pronounced by a ordinary population.

    Only the presence of s-116 can explain this diffusion as D. Faux had predicted.

  9. #109
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,383
    Points
    27,727
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,727, Level: 51
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 923
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Callaeca, as I elaborated in my post, and as Asturrulumbo also pointed out, the Beaker-Bell Culture is too ancient and has too much continuity with the earlier Megalithic traditions to be genuinely considered as something new.

    In addition I pointed out that the Basque language possesses it's own (non-IE) terms for metalworking and metals, which pinpoints to the possibility that there was indeed a non-Indo-European source of metal working in Western Europe, for which the Beaker-Bell Culture is a good candidate.

    Likewise, how do you explain the abundance of non-IE languages on the Iberian penninsula if you assume that the Proto-"Celtic" expansion occured from there?

  10. #110
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-12-09
    Posts
    157
    Points
    3,689
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,689, Level: 17
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 161
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1b5
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    anti-EU/anti-globalization
    Country: Spain - Galicia



    continuity with the earlier Megalithic traditions? Where? Not in Western Iberia...i think
    I only know the later languages(urnfield perhaps?) called Iberian . The aquitanian is located to the north of Pirineos. And what is Tartessian exactly?

  11. #111
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,383
    Points
    27,727
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,727, Level: 51
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 923
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by callaeca View Post
    continuity with the earlier Megalithic traditions? Where? Not in Western Iberia...i think
    Well, the most notable example would be the British Isles, where one of the main construction phases at Stone Henge occured. And yes, I am pretty sure that this continuity includes Western Iberia, too.

    As I would like to reiterate, one issue here, which in my opinion speaks indeed for the non-IE nature of Beaker-Bell, is the existence of indigenous terms for metals and metalworking in the Basque languages, which is something that we wouldn't expect if the population of Beaker-Bell was Indo-European.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    Oh yes, the genetic affiliation of "Old Europe" is quite sketchy, and probably quite heterogeneous, as it was a melting pot of cultural practises from Anatolia, Central Europe and the Mediterranean.
    I also agree on that. I remember reading quite a few papers on the question of homogenity vs. heterogenity of 'Old Europe' (which, I must say, in itself is a fairly sketchy term!), and there is certainly the possibility, even the likelihood that pre-IE Europe was a lot more diverse.

  12. #112
    Elite member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points
    Asturrulumbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-09-11
    Location
    Kingston, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    210


    Country: Mexico



    Quote Originally Posted by callaeca View Post
    When examples of preserved *p are found with some frequency within Celtic-speaking territory, they are accordingly referred to IE but pre-Celtic substrata, which have been labeled e.g. Ligurian, Illyrian or Old European. But the postulated IE substratum languages in western Europe tend to remain shadowy, exactly because the recognizable linguistic stratum is Celtic.

    All models must obviously assume that Celtic developed in an area, where an IE language was already spoken, at least the IE language which was its direct ancestor. Whether a specific intermediate sub-branch, such as Italo-Celtic, can be reconstructed, is debated, cf. de Vaan 2008, 5, Isaac 2007, 94.

    Highlighting heterogeneity rather than homogeneity has been effective in deconstructing the notion of a single Bell Beaker ‘culture’ (e.g. see Besse 2004; Czebreszuk (ed.) 2004; Vander Linden 2006). While this has encouraged the main focus of Bell Beaker studies to revolve around individual regional developments, it has also unwittingly resulted in wider connections between different Bell Beaker using areas being played-down, ignored or broken completely. The spread of the Beaker ‘package’ across Europe emphasises fluvial and maritime routes of interaction and exchange, and its distribution shows pockets of adoption along coastal zones and main river arteries.

    At present, most of the earliest radiocarbon dates for Bell Beakers come from Portugal, in particular the Tagus estuary, and it is also here that the densest concentration of International (notably Maritime) style Bell Beakers are known (Cardoso and Soares 1990-1992; Martínez et al. 1996, 105-110; Müller and van Willigen 2001). Furthermore, some of the earliest dates for copper mining and smelting in western Europe have come from Iberia. Copper extraction has been identified at the mines of El Aramo and El Milagro, both in northern Spain (Blas 1998). Evidence for on-site metallurgy has also been recovered from many of the Chalcolithic hillforts along the Atlantic coast of Portugal, almost always in contexts associated with Beakers and dating from c. 2600BC onwards (Cardoso 2001; Müller and Cardoso 2008; Soares and Araújo 1994). Recent excavations at the fortified settlement of Cabezo Juré, in the mining district of Huelva, south-west Spain, have revealed evidence of potentially one of the earliest and most complex copper metallurgical sites in western Europe, dating from c. 2900BC (Nocete 2006).

    Since it is unlikely that metallurgy was invented independently in the British Isles (e.g. see Ottaway and Roberts 2008; Roberts 2008), it is feasible that the dissemination of copper and bronze technology came from western Iberia, either directly or indirectly via France (Alday Ruíz 1999). The earliest attested copper mining from the British Isles comes from Ross Island in south-west Ireland, dating from c. 2400 BC (O’Brien 1995; 2001).

    In this context, The adoption of such estatus markers between the Elites would have involved the use of a family of languages that allowed to the interunderstanding to long distance, with establishments of hillforts in the main fluvial courses and coastal steps (Gulf of Cadiz, Estuary of the Tajo, Galicia, Armórica, Estuary of the Rhone…). According to the regions, at where the restricted products arrived, the local languages would have been influenced by the 'international' language of the scial elites, organized in networks of interchange and alliances, that cause the viability to appearance of the celtic language varieties.
    But I don't see how it could be a Celtic language, it is simply too ancient. Just because it involved population movements and appeared in areas associated with Celts, doesn't mean it's Celtic. The language spoken by the elite could be Indo-European, but I highly doubt so. Though it is true they were probably of a patriarchal and a warlike society, this doesn't imply necessarily that they were IE, and megalithism, with its solar connotations, can be seen as a component of a patriarchal and warlike society.
    Furthermore, look at this map (Vander Linder 2006):
    bell beaker.JPG
    As you say, it shows that the Beaker Culture was centred around coastal areas and river basins, but it hardly coincides with an Indo-European expansion.
    I would go even further, and say it sometimes coincides with the Haplogroup E1b1b in Western and Central Europe:

  13. #113
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-12-09
    Posts
    157
    Points
    3,689
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,689, Level: 17
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 161
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1b5
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    anti-EU/anti-globalization
    Country: Spain - Galicia



    Sorry but not. That is a similar situation for all western:

    Dolmen of A Romea (Lalin, Po):
    - beginning: radiocarbon dating: 3962-3712 cal BC: funerary pottery
    - closure of the monument:3366--3033 cal BC, funerary pottery.
    - REFORM and ABANDONAMENT:3018-2679 cal BC. NO funerary pottery:
    - RE-UTILIZATION: 2613-1915 cal BC, bell-beaker pottery, 33 copper arrow tips, axes.

    What do think you what happen between 2679 and 1915?

    No, It does not coincide Asturrulumbo. It is an actual map of E1b distribution that is not exact for Galicia (cf. 0% y the North, 3% in the West, 5-6% in the center and East, and 12% in the south of Galicia).

    See:



    and


  14. #114
    Elite member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points
    Asturrulumbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-09-11
    Location
    Kingston, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    210


    Country: Mexico



    Quote Originally Posted by callaeca View Post
    Sorry but not. That is a similar situation for all western:

    Dolmen of A Romea (Lalin, Po):
    - beginning: radiocarbon dating: 3962-3712 cal BC: funerary pottery
    - closure of the monument:3366--3033 cal BC, funerary pottery.
    - REFORM and ABANDONAMENT:3018-2679 cal BC. NO funerary pottery:
    - RE-UTILIZATION: 2613-1915 cal BC, bell-beaker pottery, 33 copper arrow tips, axes.

    What do think you what happen between 2679 and 1915?

    No, It does not coincide Asturrulumbo.
    The Beaker Culture had, at least in some cases, megalithic practises. There's no denying that. Note that I did not state that megalithism began with the Beakers, or even that it accentuated, but merely that they practised megalithism within the context of a "solar" and warlike society.

  15. #115
    Elite member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points
    Asturrulumbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-09-11
    Location
    Kingston, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    210


    Country: Mexico



    Quote Originally Posted by callaeca View Post
    Sorry but not. That is a similar situation for all western:

    Dolmen of A Romea (Lalin, Po):
    - beginning: radiocarbon dating: 3962-3712 cal BC: funerary pottery
    - closure of the monument:3366--3033 cal BC, funerary pottery.
    - REFORM and ABANDONAMENT:3018-2679 cal BC. NO funerary pottery:
    - RE-UTILIZATION: 2613-1915 cal BC, bell-beaker pottery, 33 copper arrow tips, axes.

    What do think you what happen between 2679 and 1915?

    No, It does not coincide Asturrulumbo. It is an actual map of E1b distribution that is not exact for Galicia (cf. 0% y the North, 3% in the West, 5-6% in the center and East, and 12% in the south of Galicia).

    See:



    and

    Hmm... The only way I could see that working is within Krahe's model of "Old European Hydronimy", and S116 originating with the Usatovo culture. The Remedello, Rinaldone and (possibly) Gaudo cultures of Italy could be seen as "Old European", as well as the Beaker folk. The Beaker S116* could have evolved to M65 and Z196, and possibly also L238. But yes, I think I see in that a possible solution. For L21 and U152 however (as well as Celtic and Italic languages), I still maintain in any case that they originated in the Cotofeni, Unetice, Tumulus and Urnfield cultures.

  16. #116
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640
    Points
    12,808
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,808, Level: 34
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 542
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by callaeca View Post
    Sorry but not. That is a similar situation for all western:

    Dolmen of A Romea (Lalin, Po):
    - beginning: radiocarbon dating: 3962-3712 cal BC: funerary pottery
    - closure of the monument:3366--3033 cal BC, funerary pottery.
    - REFORM and ABANDONAMENT:3018-2679 cal BC. NO funerary pottery:
    - RE-UTILIZATION: 2613-1915 cal BC, bell-beaker pottery, 33 copper arrow tips, axes.

    What do think you what happen between 2679 and 1915?

    No, It does not coincide Asturrulumbo. It is an actual map of E1b distribution that is not exact for Galicia (cf. 0% y the North, 3% in the West, 5-6% in the center and East, and 12% in the south of Galicia).

    See:



    and

    Interesting. Who produced the second map?

  17. #117
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,073
    Points
    22,792
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,792, Level: 46
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 758
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    Hmm... The only way I could see that working is within Krahe's model of "Old European Hydronimy", and S116 originating with the Usatovo culture. The Remedello, Rinaldone and (possibly) Gaudo cultures of Italy could be seen as "Old European", as well as the Beaker folk. The Beaker S116* could have evolved to M65 and Z196, and possibly also L238. But yes, I think I see in that a possible solution. For L21 and U152 however (as well as Celtic and Italic languages), I still maintain in any case that they originated in the Cotofeni, Unetice, Tumulus and Urnfield cultures.
    you left out Polada culture of northern italy, but maybe that was too old
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

  18. #118
    Elite member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points
    Asturrulumbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-09-11
    Location
    Kingston, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    210


    Country: Mexico



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    you left out Polada culture of northern italy, but maybe that was too old
    All the contrary; that culture in my opinion was already Italic (1380-1270 BC, much younger than the Remedello (c. 3300-2500 BC) and Rinaldone (c. 3500-2500 BC) cultures)

  19. #119
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,383
    Points
    27,727
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,727, Level: 51
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 923
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by callaeca View Post
    Sorry but not. That is a similar situation for all western:

    Dolmen of A Romea (Lalin, Po):
    - beginning: radiocarbon dating: 3962-3712 cal BC: funerary pottery
    - closure of the monument:3366--3033 cal BC, funerary pottery.
    - REFORM and ABANDONAMENT:3018-2679 cal BC. NO funerary pottery:
    - RE-UTILIZATION: 2613-1915 cal BC, bell-beaker pottery, 33 copper arrow tips, axes.

    What do think you what happen between 2679 and 1915?

    No, It does not coincide Asturrulumbo. It is an actual map of E1b distribution that is not exact for Galicia (cf. 0% y the North, 3% in the West, 5-6% in the center and East, and 12% in the south of Galicia).

    See:

    http://model.callaeca.net/the%20web%...alla002002.jpg

    and

    http://model.callaeca.net/the%20web%...alla002001.jpg
    Honestly, it does not make that much sense. The biggest stretch, in my opinion, on that map is the spread from Sardinia to western Iberia. How is that even possible, and why are the Baleares, North Africa and southeastern Iberia omitted? Also, as I said there is the issue that you have non-Indo-European languages surviving in some of the areas that are the oldest (or more generally older) Beaker-Bell sites. I think this is too much of a stretch and it's more plausible to assume that this is a phenomenon that evolved indigenously in Iberia.

    I'd also like to repeat that you sould take a look at the Basque words for metalworking:

    smith - arotz
    blacksmith - oligazon
    forge - sutegi
    lead - beruna
    iron - burdina
    hammer - gabi

    All these are non-Indo-European in origin, and in my opinion this suggests the existence of a non-Indo-European metalworking culture in Western Europe. And in my opinion, Beaker-Bell is the only viable canidate for this. In contrast, if the Basques had borrowed metalworking from Indo-Europeans (such as the Finnic people have, for instance the Finnic word for 'iron' is a cognate with the Balto-Slavic word for 'ore'), we would also expect Indo-European loans (from PIE or Proto-Celtic) into Basque there for metal terms. As a matter of fact, has a few words for metals/metalworking borrowed from IE, but these are from Latin or Romance (for example, Latin 'incudem' (anvil) > Basque 'ingude' and Spanish 'estaño' (tin) > Basque 'eztainu'), and not from Celtic or from PIE, and the rest of the metal vocabulary is fundamentally non-Indo-European, which should be impossible if Beaker-Bell was an Indo-European culture.
    Last edited by Taranis; 28-09-11 at 13:23.

  20. #120
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640
    Points
    12,808
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,808, Level: 34
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 542
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    The Basque language does put a bit of a monkey wrench into the Bell-Beaker model, as regards origin.
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 28-09-11 at 14:56.

  21. #121
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-12-09
    Posts
    157
    Points
    3,689
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,689, Level: 17
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 161
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1b5
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    anti-EU/anti-globalization
    Country: Spain - Galicia



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    why are the Baleares, North Africa and southeastern Iberia omitted? Also, as I said there is the issue that you have non-Indo-European languages surviving in some of the areas that are the oldest (or more generally older) Beaker-Bell sites. I think this is too much of a stretch and it's more plausible to assume that this is a phenomenon that evolved indigenously in Iberia.
    Because we can not find stellae, statue-menhir or certain typology of rock engravings (f.e. that related Galicia-Ireland-Valcamunica) in these areas.

    Taranis you can not go against all.

    The basque language is recently in Hispania, you must to ask better about aquitanian language in France.

    Harrison, Richard; Heyd, Volker Praehistorische Zeitschrift , Volume 82 (2) de Gruyter – Nov 26, 2007

    The Transformation of Europe in the Third Millennium BC: Sozialwandel; Ideologien; Individualismus; Jamnaja-package; anthropomorphe Stelen:

    'Unsere Analyse der Funeralbauten, der anthropomorphen Stelen und der materiellen Hinterlassenschaften (die als drei unterschiedliche Quellengruppen anzusehen sind) führen uns das Ringen zwischen Tradition und Innovation vor Augen sowie die sukzessiven Adaptionen einer lokalen spätneolithischen Bevölkerung an die verschiedenen Zweige der Glockenbecher-Ideologie und dann der Frühbronzezeit'.

    'The comparison extends to include the immigration of the Yamnaya populations from the northern Pontic steppes into east and southeast Europe, and ends with the emergence of the Bell Beaker phenomenon on the west of the Iberian Peninsula. This is all set into the wider transformation horizon between 2900 and 2700 BC.'. PZ, 82. Band, S. 129­214 © Walter de Gruyter 2007 DOI 10.1515/PZ.2007.010

    The first scale considers the European dimension stretching from the Southeast of Europe to the Atlantic facade. The second focuses on the specific sequence of events and materials from Sion ­ Le Petit-Chasseur (related with Iberia). The interplay between these two scales will allow us to explore the dynamics of an ideological evolution, which transforms prehistoric Europe successively in the third millennium BC, leading to the Early Bronze Age (EBA) stabilisations after 2200 BC. We propose a new interpretation that differs from the models of successive cultural change originally proposed by the excavators. For us, Sion is an example of an international process at the local scale. Our analysis begins from a pan-European perspective of European culture which insists upon the continental scale of European Prehistory and which gives priority to the social process rather than to the description of regional particularities.

    Taranis, NEED YOU MORE?

  22. #122
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,383
    Points
    27,727
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,727, Level: 51
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 923
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by callaeca View Post
    Because we can not find stellae, statue-menhir or certain typology of rock engravings (f.e. that related Galicia-Ireland-Valcamunica).
    Well, maybe you should consider the possibility that the stelae in Iberia are a native phenomenon.

    Taranis you can not go against all. The basque language is recently in Hispania.
    Umm, sorry what? If that was the case, Basque we should find links between the Basque language and other languages. However apart from Iberian (which is disputed, or rather, the genetic relationship between Basque and Iberian is disputed) there is no language thought to be related with Basque. These are strong arguments that the Basques have been living in the area since at least the Neolithic. The idea that the Basque language is non-native is definitely a minority view. Besides, where would it have come from after the Copper Age?

  23. #123
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-12-09
    Posts
    157
    Points
    3,689
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,689, Level: 17
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 161
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1b5
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    anti-EU/anti-globalization
    Country: Spain - Galicia



    Native phenomenon? Do you want contradict Walter de Gruyter and Richard Harrison opinion?
    Please, let's be serious.

    Mmmmm...Taranis, have you some complex or some xenophobic feeling with the portugueses and spaniards?

  24. #124
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,383
    Points
    27,727
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,727, Level: 51
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 923
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by callaeca View Post
    Native phenomenon?
    Please, let's be serious.
    Well, I am serious, and I do not think that my arguments can be so readily dismissed. I gave evidence that the Basque language has apparently native (or, at least decisively non-Indo-European, due to the fact that Basque is an isolate language it is in fact untestable if they are native to the Basque language or not) terms for metals and metalworking. The generally accepted majority view is that Basque is a native, pre-Indo-European language to Western Europe. Therefore, the only way that the Basque language could have acquired non-IE terms for metal-working is to assume the existence of a non-Indo-European culture in Western Europe that spread metalworking. The Beaker-Bell Culture is the only viable candidate for this.

  25. #125
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-12-09
    Posts
    157
    Points
    3,689
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,689, Level: 17
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 161
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1b5
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    anti-EU/anti-globalization
    Country: Spain - Galicia



    And do you see some basque language in the West of Hispania?

    The hydronyms are indo-europeans, do you have some example with a basque hydronime in the west?
    Perhaps, do you want say that Yamnani are basques?
    Tell me, have you some complex with the portugueses and spaniards?

Page 5 of 10 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Photographic file fenotípico of IBERIA.
    By Carlos in forum Anthropology & Ethnography
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 06-12-11, 01:01
  2. The Celts of Iberia
    By Cambrius (The Red) in forum European Culture & History
    Replies: 1554
    Last Post: 06-10-11, 06:30
  3. African mtDNA and Y-DNA in Iberia
    By Maciamo in forum DNA Testing & General Genetics
    Replies: 132
    Last Post: 27-09-11, 02:56
  4. Matching Ancient languages with Ancient tribes
    By zanipolo in forum Linguistics
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 24-07-11, 01:19
  5. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 19-09-10, 19:46

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •