Autosomal map : Southwest Asian admixture (from Dodecad)

[Nova123]

I always thought that an African, rather than Eurasian origin of the Afro-Asiatic languages as a whole is more likely, since all but one branch (Semitic) are found in Africa. Having said this, we don't really know. The Afro-Asiatic languages are probably the oldest conceivable and undisputed language family we know, so there is the possibility it might be different.

What counts is the edge of the original Porto- Afro-Asiatic speakers over the early adopters

Diversity does not really mean origin

[Alan]

J-P58 is J1c3, not J1c3d (Semitic J1), check out the variance map of J1c3 in figure 1 (Map e), that hot spot is the origins for this lineage.

Btw, where did you come up with 10.7% J1c3? I can only count 7.6% (Which is very similar to the Kurds btw, they carry 7.4%).

I would ad Southern(Iraqi) Kurdish because the samples are from Noirth Iraq you can read in the source. And J1c3 most probably originated somewhere in Mesopotamia-Zagros and moved into the Arabic Peninsula mutating into J1c3d (which is the real Semitic marker).

[MOESAN]

just to put some thoughts: I don't know if it will bring things up:

for the 'southwest asian' concept, or 'Red Sea' for some ones, I suppose it reposes on a population where Y-E1b was dominant at first - it is possible that Y-J1 and Y-J2 got down in Arabia, in a position of rulers or initiators and bringing more males than females - Y-J could be linked more to a part of the 'west asian' concept, other parts of 'west asian' being more linked to Y-G ?

one other hand, when comparing autosomals of Muslim Yemenese to Jews Yemenese in dode10, we see a very close repartition only for some 'subsaharian' and 'south asian' components among Muslims: it put me to conclude that Jews there lived in a more close endogamy (I suppose the 'subsaharian' and 'south asian' comp- are from female among Muslims) and that the 'southwest asian' component was previously of almost "pure" caucasian phenotypes even if "african" by geographic origin, phénotypes that we see clearly acting in the Ethiopian population linked to their admixture -
I have no record, I believe it was on Dieneke's, I saw not a mean result of autosomals but a set of 10 different Yemenese men: this sample showed for every person a father & mother component: and , if I don' mistake, all of them presented a small but consistant amount of father = mother 'subafrican' when 1 fo them show a very bigger (almost 50%?) mother 'subafrican' component compared to father - surely it need more data to establish a law, but it seam that the gene stream from 'subafrican' in this region is principally by women (mothers): except for footballers children!!!

[MOESAN]

I posted something in a thread about Ötzi (ancient DNA) and the big enough amount of SW Asian he showed, strange for a Y-G2 man of Cardial or just Post-Cardial cultural affiliation (Anatolian geographic first origin?) - we can imagine that this component was present also among Neolithic farmers of N-Fertile Crescent but I imagine too that its presence can be older than Neolithic in Mediterranea surroundings - females mediated in Ötzi 's people? (Y-E1b is old enough there!)

[Yaan]

Would u please change the map it gives the wrong information that in the biggest part of Bulgaria there is between 5%-10% of J1 and this admixture. This is not true. It is between 2%-3.5%.Data should be fixed!Thanks :)

[Maciamo]

Would u please change the map it gives the wrong information that in the biggest part of Bulgaria there is between 5%-10% of J1 and this admixture. This is not true. It is between 2%-3.5%.Data should be fixed!Thanks :)

This map is not J1 but Southwest Asian admixture from the Dodecad K=12. Bulgarians have an average of 5%.

[Angela]

just to put some thoughts: I don't know if it will bring things up:

for the 'southwest asian' concept, or 'Red Sea' for some ones, I suppose it reposes on a population where Y-E1b was dominant at first - it is possible that Y-J1 and Y-J2 got down in Arabia, in a position of rulers or initiators and bringing more males than females - Y-J could be linked more to a part of the 'west asian' concept, other parts of 'west asian' being more linked to Y-G ?

one other hand, when comparing autosomals of Muslim Yemenese to Jews Yemenese in dode10, we see a very close repartition only for some 'subsaharian' and 'south asian' components among Muslims: it put me to conclude that Jews there lived in a more close endogamy (I suppose the 'subsaharian' and 'south asian' comp- are from female among Muslims) and that the 'southwest asian' component was previously of almost "pure" caucasian phenotypes even if "african" by geographic origin, phénotypes that we see clearly acting in the Ethiopian population linked to their admixture -
I have no record, I believe it was on Dieneke's, I saw not a mean result of autosomals but a set of 10 different Yemenese men: this sample showed for every person a father & mother component: and , if I don' mistake, all of them presented a small but consistant amount of father = mother 'subafrican' when 1 fo them show a very bigger (almost 50%?) mother 'subafrican' component compared to father - surely it need more data to establish a law, but it seam that the gene stream from 'subafrican' in this region is principally by women (mothers): except for footballers children!!!

Didn't see this until today. I totally agree that J1 as well as J2 are probably associated with the West Asian component. (Along with G2, of course.) Everything I've seen, including variance, indicates that J1 formed in the northern Middle East. I believe that some of the non "Arabian" J1 was part of Neolithic migrations into Europe. J1's tremendous dominance in the southern Levant is, I think, the result of a founder effect that has been amplified by the patriarchal, clan based nature of the culture.

I also agree that the sub-saharan is usually female mediated.

As for E1b1b, I am more and more persuaded by recent papers on the area that those who posited in the past that "E" separated from DE after the initial migration Out of Africa, perhaps in the Arabian peninsula itself, and then back migrated into Africa. Part of it also went north through the Levant and into Europe via Anatolia, the Balkans, and Greece etc., and part of it migrated across North Africa and through the straits of Gibralta into Iberia.

It's true as well that the Southwest Asian was present in Oetzi, and at levels even higher than exist in northern Italy today, but even more interesting, perhaps, it is at approximately the same level in Gok 4, even though her genome shows, I think, more admixture with western, pre-existing populations.

Whether that is down to the E1b1b and J1 that came with the Neolithic is an intriguing question as well. I've seen some studies that proposed a Mesolithic arrival of E1b1b into the Balkans. In that case, there would have been acculturation of these groups into a Neolithic way of life. I wish they would hurry up and publish the results from all those tests of Mesolithic and Neolithic Balkan samples.

[Yaan]

This map is not J1 but Southwest Asian admixture from the Dodecad K=12. Bulgarians have an average of 5%.

Based on what? I do not believe that!!

[MOESAN]

where did you get this information from?

I am surprised that catalonia has a low count as they have greek and Phoenician ancient links

apprently Phoenicians and Greeks colonies left only few genetic traces in western Europe (maybe more concerning Greeks) - and Catalunia/Catalunya is not only a coastal region...

[MOESAN]

some historians of the first half of the past century said Arabic today populations were come from more northern lands (so Near Eastern) before a "come back" later ?!? so ? surely the "fronteer" between the two grouping of 'westasian' and 'southwestasian' are very thin -

[Tabaccus Maximus]

Let's continue the series of autosomal maps. Here is the Southwest Asian admixture, which has a strong Semitic component to it, and correlates best with Y-haplogroups J1 and to a lower extent T.

It's interesting that the Northeast Iberians almost completely lack this admixture while all Germanic people have it. It is nearly absent from the Baltic people, lower than 1% in most Slavs except Ukrainians and southern Russians and of course Balkan Slavs.

The Unfield culture that originated in the Southwest Balkans, and its descendant cultures such as Jastorf, might explain the SW component in Germanic peoples and its descendant cultures but not Basque country. People mistakenly believe that Urnfield was a product of Tumulus, it was not. Urnfield slowly eclipsed Tumulus with a new warrior class (Balkans), new religion and new technology. Urnfield may have been pre-Proto-Germanic where it survived in the Jastorf area where it later became Proto-Germanic. In other words, the SW Asian component was never 'necessarily' part of populations with high representation of R1b. Perhaps the nucleus of R1b was further East, such as Iranian Mountains where the admixture had not yet spread. One last point, looking at the lack of SW in Basque/Iberians we are again faced with the direct settlement of Western Europe via water, not land, by R1b people. Of course that is assuming, as Dienekes suggested, that there isn't some sort of simple male bias thing going on being such a small population.

[Fire Haired]

TB Urnfield(1,300-750bc) was decended of Tumulus. and is very central European it is what most likely spread R1b1a2a1a2b S28 and with it it spread to Italy with Italian languages. It is also the father of Hallstat Celtic then la Tene culture which spread R1b S28 even more. How would Urnfield be proto Germanic when Germanic marker R1b1a2a1a1 S21 us estimates as 4,000-5,500y years old at least 1,000 years before Urnfield even began. Plus Germanic speakers were stuck in far northern Europe and made major migrations starting in about 700bc. While Hallstat Celts dominated most of modern Germany and areas of Urnfield. You theory has a lot of holes in it. When you say R1b I thi9nk you should name the subclade because there are so many different people with y DNa R1b.

[Alexandros]

Hi Maciamo. Did you come across any data from Crete? I wonder if Cretans have the same southwest Asian admixture as mainland Greeks, especially northern Greeks. I have searched the Dodecad project's reference population and I cannot identify the origin of the Greeks included in there. In general, Cretans are surprisingly missing from the major calculators of both the Dodecad and the Eurogenes projects.

[Blanco]