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Thread: Autosomal map : Southwest Asian admixture (from Dodecad)

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    Arrow Autosomal map : Southwest Asian admixture (from Dodecad)

    Let's continue the series of autosomal maps. Here is the Southwest Asian admixture, which has a strong Semitic component to it, and correlates best with Y-haplogroups J1 and to a lower extent T.

    It's interesting that the Northeast Iberians almost completely lack this admixture while all Germanic people have it. It is nearly absent from the Baltic people, lower than 1% in most Slavs except Ukrainians and southern Russians and of course Balkan Slavs.

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    I agree about the correlation with J1 and T, but don't you think that there is a (small) component of J2 to this as well?

    If you compare:



    By the way, I agree that the absence in northeastern Iberia is very interesting.

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    There could be some minor subclades of J2 specific to Southwest Asia (Levant ?), but it's hard to say because J1 and J2 have a similar distribution in Europe (peak in Italy and Greece). In the Middle East and North Africa, it is pretty clear that the Southwest Asian component is much more J1 than J2. Then J1 is absent from the Basque country, Catalonia and Valencia and so is the Southwest Asian component.

    Anyway, the determinant factor is the frequency. J2 is so much higher in Europe than J1 that there is no doubt that the Southwest Asian element is not J2.



    The correlation works best where frequencies are the highest. It's only natural to find some discrepancies in northern Europe because we are dealing with very low frequencies of J1 that do not always show up in small population samples. For example in Belgium, the Brabant DNA Project found the highest percentage of J1 in Brabant itself, because 1/3 of the 1000 samples for Belgium came from that region. If each province had, say 300 or 500 samples, I am sure that the J1 distribution would be more evenly spread.

    In the British Isles, a lot of J1 and T was probably replaced by R1b. In Scandinavia there might very well be more J1, but Scandinavian countries have some of the smallest sample sizes in Europe for Y-DNA. Same for Switzerland and Austria. The J1 map shows a hole around these two countries but it is likely due to under-sampling.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 17-09-11 at 22:24.

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    I think it's possible some of the J2 in the Northeast Iberian side could be J2b broght by the Romans. In my opinion this should reduce Southwest Asian admixture, as well as West Asian. J2b has been found even in people of English descent probably due to similar reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Let's continue the series of autosomal maps. Here is the Southwest Asian admixture, which has a strong Semitic component to it, and correlates best with Y-haplogroups J1 and to a lower extent T.
    Thank you very much for your maps. But Southwest Asian admixtrue only correlates with some subclades of J1.

    There's very much J1 in the Caucasus, while accroding to your map, there's no Southwest Asian admixtrue there.

    Accroding to me Southwest Asian admixture only correlates with T, some subclades of E and some (Semitic) subclades of J1!

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    Original J1 is not from Southwest Asian, but is West Asian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Original J1 is not from Southwest Asian, but is West Asian.
    It doesn't matter. There is no label on the genes that says "Southwest Asian". It just happened that the J1 population carried genes that are now more common in Southwest Asia, regardless of where they originated.

    Another more obvious example is R1b, which probably arose in Central Asia, but spend a long time in the Middle East (late Paleolithic to Neolithic) but is now more common in Western Europe. In the Dodecad admixture, R1b correlates mostly with "West European" but also with "Mediterranean", even though it was absent from Europe until approximately 4500 years ago.

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    I don't know why is Andalusia in different shade. The Behar sample has 6 out of 12 andalusians and the SW-Asian is even lower than Scandinavians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It doesn't matter. There is no label on the genes that says "Southwest Asian". It just happened that the J1 population carried genes that are now more common in Southwest Asia, regardless of where they originated.

    Another more obvious example is R1b, which probably arose in Central Asia, but spend a long time in the Middle East (late Paleolithic to Neolithic) but is now more common in Western Europe. In the Dodecad admixture, R1b correlates mostly with "West European" but also with "Mediterranean", even though it was absent from Europe until approximately 4500 years ago.
    You're absolutely right. Much J1 in West Asian is Southwest Asian. There is a lot J1 Semitic, from the ancient Assyrians, Jews and Arabs.
    But there's also some native Caucasian J1 that was never in Southwest Asia. So I think we can better consider it as a West Asian subclade.

    I truly believe that some E is Southwest Asian and again from the Assyrians & Jews.
    Some people believe that the lost 10 tribes of Israel settled in the Mesopotamia!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I agree about the correlation with J1 and T, but don't you think that there is a (small) component of J2 to this as well?

    If you compare:



    By the way, I agree that the absence in northeastern Iberia is very interesting.
    This map is wrong. Galicia and Catalonia have 3% and 2% respectively, should be in the 1-5% range, no way they are 5-10% like in the map. Also, North-Italy should be in the 10-15% range. In France, in the region of Paris, there is a hotspot of 15% (N=109) as found by Athey 2005

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Let's continue the series of autosomal maps. Here is the Southwest Asian admixture, which has a strong Semitic component to it, and correlates best with Y-haplogroups J1 and to a lower extent T.

    It's interesting that the Northeast Iberians almost completely lack this admixture while all Germanic people have it. It is nearly absent from the Baltic people, lower than 1% in most Slavs except Ukrainians and southern Russians and of course Balkan Slavs.

    Another realy interesting hole around Pirrinei - same case with G in Basque . And also around Baltic sea , now I am even more convinced in posibility Basque R1b population came by sea from Baltic coast - maybe Latvia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    This map is wrong. Galicia and Catalonia have 3% and 2% respectively, should be in the 1-5% range, no way they are 5-10% like in the map. Also, North-Italy should be in the 10-15% range. In France, in the region of Paris, there is a hotspot of 15% (N=109) as found by Athey 2005

    where did you get this information from?

    I am surprised that catalonia has a low count as they have greek and Phoenician ancient links
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    where did you get this information from?

    I am surprised that catalonia has a low count as they have greek and Phoenician ancient links
    Actually the table of Eupedia has 2% for Catalonia and 3% for Galicia. The phoenician-greek ? Please don't make me laugh. They were insiginificant.

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    Phoenicians and Greeks in NW Iberia? I know there were Viking settlements in the region (Povoa de Varzim and Vila do Conde - Douro and Minho provinces, Portugal) but Phoenician and Greek communities?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgundis View Post
    Phoenicians and Greeks in NW Iberia? I know there were Viking settlements in the region (Povoa de Varzim and Vila do Conde - Douro and Minho provinces, Portugal) but Phoenician and Greek communities?


    my mistake , its only greek, majorca is not catalan so thats where I thought of the phoenicians

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668035/

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post


    my mistake , its only greek, majorca is not catalan so thats where I thought of the phoenicians

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668035/
    well, Majorca has 5% of J2 at iberianroots. Vast majority of ethnic majorcans are of catalan descend. Phoenicians were just traders, they were overall a very insignificant population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    well, Majorca has 5% of J2 at iberianroots. Vast majority of ethnic majorcans are of catalan descend. Phoenicians were just traders, they were overall a very insignificant population.

    I know majorca are of catalan descent, someone else said there was no phoenicians in catalan lands.

    Did you read the link .....Phoenicians are J2 and basically nothing else.

    Insignificant ?. depends on how long they stayed, what was there association with its neighbours etc etc.
    besides , they ended up being the carthagians in the western Med. Catagians , a mix of phoenicians, libyans, numidians and maybe even sardinians and sicilians

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    I forgot to mention that R1b1c (V88) should also be part of the Southwest Asian admixture. That's why places like Ireland, Scotland or Scandinavia, which have close to no J1, still have about 2% of Southwest Asian admixture. Most of it probably comes from this South Levantine subclade of R1b (the most common type of R1b among Jewish people).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    This map is wrong. Galicia and Catalonia have 3% and 2% respectively, should be in the 1-5% range, no way they are 5-10% like in the map. Also, North-Italy should be in the 10-15% range. I
    You are right about Spain because I revised the frequencies after making the map. North Italy has different frequencies in the east and west.

    n France, in the region of Paris, there is a hotspot of 15% (N=109) as found by Athey 2005
    Link please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Link please.
    http://www.jogg.info/41/Wiik.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I know majorca are of catalan descent, someone else said there was no phoenicians in catalan lands.

    Did you read the link .....Phoenicians are J2 and basically nothing else.

    Insignificant ?. depends on how long they stayed, what was there association with its neighbours etc etc.
    besides , they ended up being the carthagians in the western Med. Catagians , a mix of phoenicians, libyans, numidians and maybe even sardinians and sicilians
    The Phoenicians established a few small and self contained trading territories in parts of southern Spain and southern Portugal. They also founded Lisbon (Ollisipo), which did not become a population center of any import until many centuries after the Phoenicians departed. There is no evidence suggesting that Phoenicians mixed freely with native Iberians. It is unlikely that they had much direct genetic impact on Iberia.

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    Interesting point, it makes sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    You're absolutely right. Much J1 in West Asian is Southwest Asian. There is a lot J1 Semitic, from the ancient Assyrians, Jews and Arabs.
    But there's also some native Caucasian J1 that was never in Southwest Asia. So I think we can better consider it as a West Asian subclade.

    I truly believe that some E is Southwest Asian and again from the Assyrians & Jews.
    Some people believe that the lost 10 tribes of Israel settled in the Mesopotamia!
    The J1 in Assyrians is mostly the Anatolian native type (J1* DYS388 = 13), which is also found among other Anatolian/Caucasian populations and peaks in the Caucasus, the Semitic J1 type (J1c3d) is actually rare among them, but about 5% or so carry haplogroup E1b1b1c1 which is the E that originated in the Levant and was responsible (Along with J1c3d) for the Semitic languages, so if anything, I would say this paternal lineage was mostly responsible for bringing the Semitic language to the native Assyrians who mostly happen to carry R1b (Though a good chunk of it is similar to the European kind), J1*, J2a, and T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It doesn't matter. There is no label on the genes that says "Southwest Asian". It just happened that the J1 population carried genes that are now more common in Southwest Asia, regardless of where they originated.

    Another more obvious example is R1b, which probably arose in Central Asia, but spend a long time in the Middle East (late Paleolithic to Neolithic) but is now more common in Western Europe. In the Dodecad admixture, R1b correlates mostly with "West European" but also with "Mediterranean", even though it was absent from Europe until approximately 4500 years ago.
    Actually the subclade matters a lot, J1* is rare in Arabs but common in Anatolian/Caucasian populations, J1c3d on the other hand is the extremely common subclade in Arabs/Jews (But not so among Assyrians which is surprising).

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    E1b1b1c1 which is the E that originated in the Levant and was responsible (Along with J1c3d) for the Semitic languages
    incorrect

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