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Thread: Updated Y-DNA maps

  1. #1
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Arrow Updated Y-DNA maps

    I have revised the Y-DNA frequencies for the Ile-de-France region (around Paris) and Alsace, and added the frequencies for the Rhône-Alpes region. I have modified the maps of E1b1b, J1, J2, Q, R1a and R1b accordingly.

    A few interesting points :

    - The Parisian region stands out as a hotspot for Greco-Roman haplogroups (E1b1b, J1, J2). This is based on three studies totalling 232 samples.

    - There seems to have been a major influx of R1a people in Eastern France. It has been suggested before that this could be due to the Burgundian people, who originated in Denmark. There wasn't enough evidence of this before, but combined with a hotspot of Q in the Rhône-Alpes and Provence regions, another hotspot of I2b also around the Rhône, and a relatively high percentage of R1b-S21 (5-10%) as far south as Provence, I really think that this might be the mark of Burgundian lineages.

    Based on the frequencies in the Rhône-Alpes region, the Burgundian would have had roughly this proportion of haplogroups :

    40% of R1b (mostly S21)
    20% of R1a
    22% of I1
    6% of I2b
    14% of Q

    This is not unlike the frequencies found in Denmark today, but with a much higher percentage of haplogroup Q. Or is it that Q didn't come with the Burgundians, but with a group of the Huns that settled there earlier or were absorbed by the Burgundians just before or during their migration ?
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  2. #2
    Regular Member rms2's Avatar
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    I'm confused. In modern France there is a region with 20% R1a? That would be remarkable.

    What three studies are those?

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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I'm confused. In modern France there is a region with 20% R1a? That would be remarkable.

    What three studies are those?
    Not at all. I just subtracted the Germanic haplogroups in Eastern France from the rest of the population to obtain the frequencies of the source population. The Germanic influence in Eastern France represents about 1/4 of paternal lineages, which is quite a lot.

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    Maciamo, I like to point out something very important, while the presentation of these maps and the frequencies all look nice, they would be more credible if you list the sources beside each frequency line and map, any work without proper sources should not be taken seriously, and I'm quite aware of many people out there that don't take this website seriously due to this fact, they think that this website has an agenda for this very reason, perhaps it's best to fix this problem for the sake of ethical boundaries and credibility.

  5. #5
    Regular Member bertrand's Avatar
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    Maciamo,
    Do you have an idea of the difference between the Franks and Alamans from a Y-Dna distribution point of view?
    The Alaman seem to be in majority S28, while the Franks were more S21, I2 no?

    thanks

    Bertrand

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    Have they already been updated ? I still can't see it.

  7. #7
    Regular Member rms2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Not at all. I just subtracted the Germanic haplogroups in Eastern France from the rest of the population to obtain the frequencies of the source population. The Germanic influence in Eastern France represents about 1/4 of paternal lineages, which is quite a lot.
    Okay, I got it now. Thanks.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by bertrand View Post
    Maciamo,
    Do you have an idea of the difference between the Franks and Alamans from a Y-Dna distribution point of view?
    The Alaman seem to be in majority S28, while the Franks were more S21, I2 no?

    thanks

    Bertrand
    I think that the general feeling is that the Alamanni did not contribute the majority of the modern Y-DNA in former Alamannia and that the S28 there is quite pre-Alamanni. So there's a good chance that the Alamanni had a lot of S21 and I2, as well.

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    I am quite suprised by such great contribution( 1/4 of male lineages) of Burgunds in Burgundy . They comed from small island Borngholm , then there is he story that Attila ordered killing of 70.000 Burgund wariors and they king because of dispute ,and all of Vandals , Vizi and Ostro Goths , Burgunds suposed to be warior Arianit elite over majority of old catholic population . Maybe we should reconsider these theories , or maybe Burgunds picked up some other nations during they move toward Rhona ?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have revised the Y-DNA frequencies for the Ile-de-France region (around Paris) and Alsace, and added the frequencies for the Rhône-Alpes region. I have modified the maps of E1b1b, J1, J2, Q, R1a and R1b accordingly.

    A few interesting points :

    - The Parisian region stands out as a hotspot for Greco-Roman haplogroups (E1b1b, J1, J2). This is based on three studies totalling 232 samples.

    - There seems to have been a major influx of R1a people in Eastern France. It has been suggested before that this could be due to the Burgundian people, who originated in Denmark. There wasn't enough evidence of this before, but combined with a hotspot of Q in the Rhône-Alpes and Provence regions, another hotspot of I2b also around the Rhône, and a relatively high percentage of R1b-S21 (5-10%) as far south as Provence, I really think that this might be the mark of Burgundian lineages.

    Based on the frequencies in the Rhône-Alpes region, the Burgundian would have had roughly this proportion of haplogroups :

    40% of R1b (mostly S21)
    20% of R1a
    22% of I1
    6% of I2b
    14% of Q

    This is not unlike the frequencies found in Denmark today, but with a much higher percentage of haplogroup Q. Or is it that Q didn't come with the Burgundians, but with a group of the Huns that settled there earlier or were absorbed by the Burgundians just before or during their migration ?

    since Burgundians where originally a east-german tribe, it is safe to say that if we remove the R1b ( as it became burgundian after residing in southern France ) the remainder are all east -german haplotypes ?
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

  11. #11
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cobol19 View Post
    Maciamo, I like to point out something very important, while the presentation of these maps and the frequencies all look nice, they would be more credible if you list the sources beside each frequency line and map, any work without proper sources should not be taken seriously, and I'm quite aware of many people out there that don't take this website seriously due to this fact, they think that this website has an agenda for this very reason, perhaps it's best to fix this problem for the sake of ethical boundaries and credibility.
    The sources are my Y-DNA tables, which are based on all the Y-DNA studies I have come across. I have listed a small sample here. I will try to find time to update it one day.

  12. #12
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Have they already been updated ? I still can't see it.
    Try deleting your browser's cache and reload the page.

  13. #13
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I think that the general feeling is that the Alamanni did not contribute the majority of the modern Y-DNA in former Alamannia and that the S28 there is quite pre-Alamanni. So there's a good chance that the Alamanni had a lot of S21 and I2, as well.
    I agree with that. I haven't made the calculations for the frequencies of each haplogroup though.

  14. #14
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    since Burgundians where originally a east-german tribe, it is safe to say that if we remove the R1b ( as it became burgundian after residing in southern France ) the remainder are all east -german haplotypes ?
    It's more complicated than that. I counted only the R1b-S21 in Eastern France, because it is the only one that is Germanic for sure. I estimated the share of S21 as a total of R1b in Denmark and multiplied accordingly. So only the Germanic R1b is counted here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The sources are my Y-DNA tables, which are based on all the Y-DNA studies I have come across. I have listed a small sample here. I will try to find time to update it one day.
    Maciamo, my point was to put sources on your frequency tables, for example let's say you took a certain population and added their numbers from certain studies, you reference these studies from the table (By numbers usually) and list them in the bottom of the page for people to check out, that's what your tables lack and that's where a lot of these numbers becomes questionable and not legit, it's just a word of advice because from an academic point of view, this should be much more important than anything else at this point.

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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cobol19 View Post
    Maciamo, my point was to put sources on your frequency tables, for example let's say you took a certain population and added their numbers from certain studies, you reference these studies from the table (By numbers usually) and list them in the bottom of the page for people to check out, that's what your tables lack and that's where a lot of these numbers becomes questionable and not legit, it's just a word of advice because from an academic point of view, this should be much more important than anything else at this point.
    I don't have time for that now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I don't have time for that now.
    Very well, but until that's fixed, I think it's unethical and useless to use these frequency tables or maps.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Try deleting your browser's cache and reload the page.
    Seems like the map of J2 is still not updated.

  19. #19
    Regular Member bertrand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I agree with that. I haven't made the calculations for the frequencies of each haplogroup though.
    Ok but one has to take into account the language shift in alsace, Baden and northern switzerland as of the 5th century.
    Wouldn't you say that for the whole population to shift from celtic to germanic language over less than a century the allemani must have contributed much to the local DNA pool?
    Languagewise you see in Alsace the very distinct change of dialect between Wissembourg (Francique - of the Francks) and allemanic (of the alamans).
    Some pockets in the Vosges still speak a roman dialect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    I am quite suprised by such great contribution( 1/4 of male lineages) of Burgunds in Burgundy . They comed from small island Borngholm , then there is he story that Attila ordered killing of 70.000 Burgund wariors and they king because of dispute ,and all of Vandals , Vizi and Ostro Goths , Burgunds suposed to be warior Arianit elite over majority of old catholic population . Maybe we should reconsider these theories , or maybe Burgunds picked up some other nations during they move toward Rhona ?
    picked up other nations? a fraction of them is possible BUT I NEVER RELY ON THE NUMBERS HISTORY TELL US NEITHER FOR ARMIES NEITHER FOR SLAUGHTERS - for BOurgone (Burgundy) of today, it depends on the places: and the Burgunds was more numerous in the surroundings of LYONNAIS than in BURGUNDY proper (a good taste in North Burgundy, but very few in South (Charolais hilly region keeped on being more celtic, as Forez, West Lyon) - on phenotyp grounds I find something very near too: 15%<>20% but it's just a guess

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    picked up other nations? a fraction of them is possible BUT I NEVER RELY ON THE NUMBERS HISTORY TELL US NEITHER FOR ARMIES NEITHER FOR SLAUGHTERS -
    neither ... nor ... sorry for my poor english

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    Which Haplogroup Q is found in the Rhône Valley?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaploguyQ1b View Post
    Which Haplogroup Q is found in the Rhône Valley?
    I believe it is actually Hun in origin; brought there by the Burgundians. (East Germans). It is a Q1a subclade; last time I checked.

    Since you are Q1b; you might have some Middle Eastern or Jewish. Maybe Kurdish or Lebanese.

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