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Thread: I2c frequency and diversity maps

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    Hi Sparkey!
    would you be so nice to explain criteria how you selected parts settled with Serbs from Bosnia mentioned in Battaglia's work?
    I've took a look on the data sheets and couldn't find any geographical definition there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gosh View Post
    Hi Sparkey!
    would you be so nice to explain criteria how you selected parts settled with Serbs from Bosnia mentioned in Battaglia's work?
    I've took a look on the data sheets and couldn't find any geographical definition there.
    I couldn't find any geographical data, either, so I just referenced a map that specifies ethnic groups by percentage, put "1-5%" in the places where Serbs are, and "trace" elsewhere.

    I think that the "trace" field in Southeastern Europe will expand once we get more data from there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I couldn't find any geographical data, either, so I just referenced a map that specifies ethnic groups by percentage, put "1-5%" in the places where Serbs are, and "trace" elsewhere.

    I think that the "trace" field in Southeastern Europe will expand once we get more data from there.
    I mentioned a strange spots and that's the reason why I've asked you about that. But, to be honest I suspect a little bit in Battaglia's 12 marker results. Even more because they showed I2* only between Serbs in Bosnia. Strange a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Would it help your analysis to know that the known Anatolian I2c is dominantly from ethnic Armenians?

    It's interesting that Armenian recorded history begins right about the time that Nordtvedt dates the split of their cluster. Another thing is that they began to go into diaspora in the 11th century and became ubiquitous around the Mediterranean as traders, particularly in Italian trading colonies. As the Ottoman Empire expanded and took over those outposts one by one, the Italians were replaced in their trading functions by Jews, Armenians and Greeks.

    With that in mind, take a look at the map of territory controlled by the Venetian Republic at its greatest extent:

    Venezianische_Kolonien.jpg

    There is uncanny overlap between it and the Mediterranean portion of the I2c map.

    So what I am proposing is this: The ancestor of the Armenian cluster settled among the proto-Armenians around the beginning of their recorded history - perhaps as a trader entering the region via the Black Sea. His descendants became preeminent in Armenian society at some point early on and hence expanded their share in the Armenian haplogroup pool. Some members of their cluster became active in trading during the diaspora and consequently spread the haplogroup around the eastern Mediterranean, particularly in Italian trading colonies.

    Armenians are also known to have established trading colonies in Russia and the Ukraine early on (beginning in Lvov in the 13th century), and later in Northern Europe, especially in Amsterdam. This might account for the lower but still measurable presence of their cluster in those areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by haithabu View Post
    With that in mind, take a look at the map of territory controlled by the Venetian Republic at its greatest extent:

    Venezianische_Kolonien.jpg

    There is uncanny overlap between it and the Mediterranean portion of the I2c map.
    Wow, I would have never guessed the Venetians, but that map alone basically convinces me of their importance, at least for the Balkan and Greek carriers. Probably the only reason we haven't found any I2c in modern Venice yet is due to a lack of samples, but it would make sense, because we're getting closer to the center of diversity of I2c with Venice.

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    One area of concentration in the I2c map which can't easily be accounted for by the presence of Armenians in trading colonies is Macedonia. However there is also this:

    "The long-winding military conflict between the Roman and its successor Byzantine Empire and Persia culminated, in 387 AD, with the loss of the Armenian statehood as Armenia was for the first time in its history divided between those two states. The date can be conditionally set as the beginning of the Armenian Diaspora...

    .....The Byzantine policy of displacing the indigenous Armenian population was of more consistent nature: for several centuries the Armenians were forced to relocate to the western regions of the Empire, including the Balkan regions of Thrace and Macedonia . The emigration of the Armenian nobility and military elite resulted in their diffusion into the highest ranks of the Byzantine government system, culminating in the establishment of the Macedonian or Armenian imperial dynasty (867-1057). "

    http://www.armeniaemb.org/DiscoverAr...ofDiaspora.htm

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    It therefore looks like the I2c presence in the eastern Mediterranean is [edit: may be] specifically a signature of the Armenian diaspora.

    [edit: I'm going even further out on a limb here, but the coalescence age of the Armenian/Turkey cluster corresponds well to the advent of the Orontids, who persisted in one dynasty or another as Armenian rulers, kings and satraps for 600 years. I2* may have been introduced to the Armenians by this family who are thought to have been Mede or Persian in origin.] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orontid...s_of_Commagene

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Wow, I would have never guessed the Venetians, but that map alone basically convinces me of their importance, at least for the Balkan and Greek carriers. Probably the only reason we haven't found any I2c in modern Venice yet is due to a lack of samples, but it would make sense, because we're getting closer to the center of diversity of I2c with Venice.
    You need to also have a map of the Genoese holdings which dominated the black sea area.

    BTW , in december 2010, the study on venetian DNA was given up due to the fact that it was too cosmoplitan in its 1100 year history, focus by DNA tests is now on the veneto mainland which I suspect will find basically ligurian, gallic and celtic markers.

    KN , stated in June 2011 that the only I marker in Venice was the same as the basque and sardinian one. he basically stated this marker was an "anti R1a" marker.
    If this is the case then where or how does I2c come into it.

    lastly, Byzantine, Genoese and Venetian merchants practised "white" slavery from Azov , from about 600 AD until the early middle ages. This can have an effect on certian markers in certain areas

    this is the last I found ( although I have not been looking anymore)
    http://venice2point0.blogspot.com/20...etian-dna.html
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by haithabu View Post
    One area of concentration in the I2c map which can't easily be accounted for by the presence of Armenians in trading colonies is Macedonia. However there is also this:

    "The long-winding military conflict between the Roman and its successor Byzantine Empire and Persia culminated, in 387 AD, with the loss of the Armenian statehood as Armenia was for the first time in its history divided between those two states. The date can be conditionally set as the beginning of the Armenian Diaspora...

    .....The Byzantine policy of displacing the indigenous Armenian population was of more consistent nature: for several centuries the Armenians were forced to relocate to the western regions of the Empire, including the Balkan regions of Thrace and Macedonia . The emigration of the Armenian nobility and military elite resulted in their diffusion into the highest ranks of the Byzantine government system, culminating in the establishment of the Macedonian or Armenian imperial dynasty (867-1057). "

    http://www.armeniaemb.org/DiscoverAr...ofDiaspora.htm
    Are you talking about the original Armenian homeland near the taurus mountains ( basically modern turkey and syrian border areas ) to the caucausus area or ?.
    I assume you mean that this emigration of Armenian nobility into Thrace and Macedonian was to give the Bulgars a monarcy.

    Something like modern french nobility of Savoy to become kings of Italy or bavarian nobility to become kings of greece.

    there where Armenians residing in venice
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Lazzaro_degli_Armeni
    There was also germans, greeks , Illyrian dalmatians, some croats ( only from Zardar ( Zara)) , Dutch, french, swiss and of course italians ............and slovenes in the friuli alpine lands

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Are you talking about the original Armenian homeland near the taurus mountains ( basically modern turkey and syrian border areas ) to the caucausus area or ?.
    I assume you mean that this emigration of Armenian nobility into Thrace and Macedonian was to give the Bulgars a monarcy.

    Something like modern french nobility of Savoy to become kings of Italy or bavarian nobility to become kings of greece.

    According to the source this emigration began to take place with the partition of the Armenian kingdom in 387 AB, before the Bulgars entered Macedonia. At time the kingdom occupied this area:

    62armenia299-387.gif

    I assume that most of the emigrants would have come from the western part which fell to Byzantium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    You need to also have a map of the Genoese holdings which dominated the black sea area.
    A map of the Republic of Genoa. It maps more poorly than the Venetian Republic but has a possibly telling holding with Trabzon (Trebisonda).

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    BTW , in december 2010, the study on venetian DNA was given up due to the fact that it was too cosmoplitan in its 1100 year history, focus by DNA tests is now on the veneto mainland which I suspect will find basically ligurian, gallic and celtic markers.

    KN , stated in June 2011 that the only I marker in Venice was the same as the basque and sardinian one. he basically stated this marker was an "anti R1a" marker.
    If this is the case then where or how does I2c come into it.
    It would have to be as a minority clade, which could have expanded within a subset of the Venetian population that happened to travel around its own Republic, if the theory we're coming to about a Venice-I2c connection is true. I doubt I2c has been anything other than a minority clade anywhere within recent times.

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    lastly, Byzantine, Genoese and Venetian merchants practised "white" slavery from Azov , from about 600 AD until the early middle ages. This can have an effect on certian markers in certain areas
    It's something to keep in mind, but I wouldn't immediately suspect an Azov connection, at least as being the source of I2c. More likely if we find I2c in Azov and its origin is Venetian times, it's from Genoese/Venetian merchants who went there. At least, that's my understanding so far, based principally on STR diversity.

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    this is the last I found ( although I have not been looking anymore)
    http://venice2point0.blogspot.com/20...etian-dna.html
    Thanks. Keep us updated.

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    I'm not sure there is a connection between I2c Armenians and the Venetians so much as that they both chose the same real estate (the maritime fringe of the Ottoman Empire) for differing reasons: the Venetians for trade access into the empire and the Armenians first to escape the empire as it expanded and then to supplant the Italians as traders as the Ottomans took control of those enclaves. As Christians who were members of a recognized dhimmi millet within the empire, they could move freely between the two worlds of the Ottomans and Western Europe in a way that Latin Christians and Muslims could not.

    [edit: quote from this source: http://www.azg.am/EN/2001052612

    History witnesses that Hellenistic Crete Island has for centuries been a hospitable for Armenians place. First mentioning about Armenians in the island dates back to 8-th century. Byzantium’s Nikiporos II Pakos emperor, highly evaluating the contribution of many Armenian soldiers and army commanders in the job of liberating Crete from Arab’s yoke (823-961 AD), allowed many Armenians to stay and live in the island. Already in 970’s the number of Armenians here reached 20,000, and Greek sources give a number of 16,000. After the collapse of Cilicia Armenian kingdom in 1375 AD a new flow of Armenian refugees started to Crete. The existence of villages with Armenian names like Armenis, Armenokhorio, Armenoi witness about it.
    Last edited by haithabu; 24-09-11 at 00:46.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Great job, thanks Sparkey!

    "9% among Georgians per 23andMe" - that's probably just me :)

    As for the I2c in the Caucasus/Anatolia I strongly believe that they came with Phrigians/Meskhi from Balkans about 3000+ years ago. Historical sources verify that 2800 years ago they entered the territory of modern Georgia and established their capital city at Mtskheta (in Georgian the name means 'belonging to Meskhi). In Anatolia their main city was Mazaka (same Meskhi root) later Cesaria of Byzantium.
    As for many I2c among modern ethnic Armenians, mostly they are from the historic Meskhi territories which were changing hands between Georgian, Armenian, Iranian and later Turkish realms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Great job, thanks Sparkey!

    "9% among Georgians per 23andMe" - that's probably just me :)

    As for the I2c in the Caucasus/Anatolia I strongly believe that they came with Phrigians/Meskhi from Balkans about 3000+ years ago. Historical sources verify that 2800 years ago they entered the territory of modern Georgia and established their capital city at Mtskheta (in Georgian the name means 'belonging to Meskhi). In Anatolia their main city was Mazaka (same Meskhi root) later Cesaria of Byzantium.
    As for many I2c among modern ethnic Armenians, mostly they are from the historic Meskhi territories which were changing hands between Georgian, Armenian, Iranian and later Turkish realms.
    I've read that a particular Armenian may push back the estimate for TMRCA of the B cluster, but I'm a bit worried that the Phrygians are still a bit old, or at least not from the right area of Europe, considering that the diversity hotspots aren't near Eastern Europe. There's nothing to discount the theory, yet, though, that's just my initial concern.

    I think that we're seeing about five components of I2c that each warrant separate analyses:

    (1) Cluster A. It has a couple little expansions in the formerly Brythonic area of Scotland and the Emmental in Switzerland (that's mine and haithabu's), and very thinly spread elsewhere in Western Europe. It could be a Beaker relic that got incorporated into both certain Celtic and Germanic cultures, although Nordtvedt keeps changing its TMRCA estimate, so I'm not confident.

    (2) Cluster C. It seems more solidly Germanic than A, although it doesn't seem to have really expanded anywhere, remaining a tiny minority everywhere.

    (3) European Cluster B. This is the bit that haithabu is proposing has close ties to the Venetian Republic, although it has a little bit outside that area. We're also not certain that all the I2c in, say, the Balkans is Cluster B, but that's the operating assumption at the moment.

    (4) Asian Cluster B. Most prevalent in Armenians, at least that's what studies have shown so far, but also has an interesting presence in Georgians (like you Kardu) and Balkarians. I still don't feel confident in any explanation but suspect that this is the result of something different than (3).

    (5) Jewish Cluster B. So far entirely Eastern European Jews AFAIK. How this happened I don't know, but they are the youngest subcluster, so we have to look recent, possibly as an offshoot of (3) or (4). This is that big splotch on both maps north of the Black Sea.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Unfortunately very few Georgians were tested so far, 21 to be exact (not counting those mentioned in scientific papers, and still total number does not exceed 200) from which 2 us belong to I2c.
    Interestingly enough my and rest of the Armenian-Anatolian (Including the other Georgian) TMRCA lived about 3200 years ago. How could we explain this?..

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    Quote Originally Posted by haithabu View Post
    It's interesting that Armenian recorded history begins right about the time that Nordtvedt dates the split of their cluster. Another thing is that they began to go into diaspora in the 11th century and became ubiquitous around the Mediterranean as traders, particularly in Italian trading colonies. As the Ottoman Empire expanded and took over those outposts one by one, the Italians were replaced in their trading functions by Jews, Armenians and Greeks.

    With that in mind, take a look at the map of territory controlled by the Venetian Republic at its greatest extent:

    Venezianische_Kolonien.jpg

    There is uncanny overlap between it and the Mediterranean portion of the I2c map.

    So what I am proposing is this: The ancestor of the Armenian cluster settled among the proto-Armenians around the beginning of their recorded history - perhaps as a trader entering the region via the Black Sea. His descendants became preeminent in Armenian society at some point early on and hence expanded their share in the Armenian haplogroup pool. Some members of their cluster became active in trading during the diaspora and consequently spread the haplogroup around the eastern Mediterranean, particularly in Italian trading colonies.

    Armenians are also known to have established trading colonies in Russia and the Ukraine early on (beginning in Lvov in the 13th century), and later in Northern Europe, especially in Amsterdam. This might account for the lower but still measurable presence of their cluster in those areas.
    It is realy plausible that most of I2c spreaded over the world by Armenian settling . Conection of I2c with Venice is also realy interesting . If this helps I know for three waves of Armenian settling in Serbia and Bosnia : 1) after battle on Pločnik 1386 in which Serbs beaten Turks . Armenians who were fighting in battle on Turkic side like vassal army , crossed over on Serbian side during battle and they were settled in east Serbia ( there was few thousands fighters ) 2) In biger Turkic cities on Balkans there was always strong Armenian comunity - Niš , Sarajevo , Belgrade , Mostar , Travnik ,... 3) after genocide over Armenians in Asia Minor by Turks in 1920 -ies , some Armenians escaped in Yugoslavia , they center in Serbia ( where most of them settled ) was in Valjevo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    It is realy plausible that most of I2c spreaded over the world by Armenian settling . Conection of I2c with Venice is also realy interesting . If this helps I know for three waves of Armenian settling in Serbia and Bosnia........

    Thank you, Bodin. The Balkans I thought were the weakest link in my hypothesis. The question then is whether the y-dna STR data there supports an Armenian descent for the Balkan I2c's.

    Sparkey, what is the difference between the European and Asian clusters you refer to and in your opinion do the eastern Med people fall into the former or the latter?

    A further question to anyone else: is there any record of extensive Armenian settlement in the Peloponnese?

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    Quote Originally Posted by haithabu View Post
    Sparkey, what is the difference between the European and Asian clusters you refer to and in your opinion do the eastern Med people fall into the former or the latter?
    So far we don't have enough data on the European cluster. Probably, the "Z" subcluster on the FTDNA Project is the most interesting, with membership in Germany, Italy, Greece, and Bulgaria, but no Armenians. Unfortunately, we don't have similar STR data for the Balkans in particular. So it seems that Italian and Greek I2c-B tend to be closer to each other than to Armenians, but we need more data to reach further conclusions.

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    Sparkey, you didn't insert data for Normandy and southern France. They have quite a high percentage of this haplogroup.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
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    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Gosh View Post
    Sparkey, you didn't insert data for Normandy and southern France. They have quite a high percentage of this haplogroup.
    Really? Do you have a source I can look at for numbers? I'll update the map again if you can show me.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    I notice that a 2005 study of Cyprus shows haplogroup I at 7.7% (clades not given). Given the island's history, I would guess that a fair bit of it is Armenian and therefore I2c.

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    Quote Originally Posted by haithabu View Post
    I notice that a 2005 study of Cyprus shows haplogroup I at 7.7% (clades not given). Given the island's history, I would guess that a fair bit of it is Armenian and therefore I2c.
    Was that only taken in South Cyprus or was it a combination of South and North? Either way, I agree, that indicates that I2c in Cyprus is at least trace, although I doubt it's as high as Crete (over 5%). It may be a place where we have both the "Z" I2c-B subcluster and the various Armenian subclusters present. It will probably be appropriate to add a trace or 1-5% range for Cyprus on the next update, although as you may notice, I'm being conservative with where I put I2c on my map.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    (1) Cluster A. It has a couple little expansions in the formerly Brythonic area of Scotland and the Emmental in Switzerland (that's mine and haithabu's), and very thinly spread elsewhere in Western Europe. It could be a Beaker relic that got incorporated into both certain Celtic and Germanic cultures, although Nordtvedt keeps changing its TMRCA estimate, so I'm not confident.

    (2) Cluster C. It seems more solidly Germanic than A, although it doesn't seem to have really expanded anywhere, remaining a tiny minority everywhere.

    (3) European Cluster B. This is the bit that haithabu is proposing has close ties to the Venetian Republic, although it has a little bit outside that area. We're also not certain that all the I2c in, say, the Balkans is Cluster B, but that's the operating assumption at the moment.

    (4) Asian Cluster B. Most prevalent in Armenians, at least that's what studies have shown so far, but also has an interesting presence in Georgians (like you Kardu) and Balkarians. I still don't feel confident in any explanation but suspect that this is the result of something different than (3).

    (5) Jewish Cluster B. So far entirely Eastern European Jews AFAIK. How this happened I don't know, but they are the youngest subcluster, so we have to look recent, possibly as an offshoot of (3) or (4). This is that big splotch on both maps north of the Black Sea.
    I'm bumping this to offer a bit more analysis after some rethinking of it... answering some remaining questions, if you will.

    I am more confident about the distribution pattern of (1) now. It definitely seems that its TMRCA is younger than originally thought, probably stuck around the Iron Age. That, combined with the fact that its center of diversity seems to be along the Rhine but with an interestingly old Brythonic British cluster, makes me think that it was spread principally by the Iron Age Celts, with maybe some later Germanicized components getting spread by Alamanni and/or Anglo-Saxons. It has an affinity to I2a2b, which is also thought to have its modern spread resulting mostly from the Iron Age Celts, but I2c-A isn't as old as I2a2b, so it doesn't share the apparent abundance within Urnfield Culture (although it may have been a present minority clade there).

    I am also quite sure that (5) is a child of (3) rather than (4), per Paul Givargidze. That presents a picture of (5) as being from a Medieval Jewish convert whose descendants populated Eastern Europe, interestingly farther north than than the spread of the rest of (3). The reason for this could be as simple as that convert or his descendants moving north.
    Last edited by sparkey; 11-11-11 at 22:52.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    sorry
    I'm just lost
    Could somebody tell me what kind of Y-I is this HG? a new nomenclature for a set of Y-I2B previously I1c ???
    excuse my ignorance and thank beforehand for your aswer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    sorry
    I'm just lost
    Could somebody tell me what kind of Y-I is this HG? a new nomenclature for a set of Y-I2B previously I1c ???
    excuse my ignorance and thank beforehand for your aswer.
    It's the new nomenclature for most of former I2*. It's not very common in most places, although it is the most common Haplogroup I subclade in Crete and Armenia.

    It's also mine, hence my interest.

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