I2c frequency and diversity maps

haithabu said:
It's interesting that Armenian recorded history begins right about the time that Nordtvedt dates the split of their cluster. Another thing is that they began to go into diaspora in the 11th century and became ubiquitous around the Mediterranean as traders, particularly in Italian trading colonies. As the Ottoman Empire expanded and took over those outposts one by one, the Italians were replaced in their trading functions by Jews, Armenians and Greeks.

With that in mind, take a look at the map of territory controlled by the Venetian Republic at its greatest extent:

View attachment 5182

There is uncanny overlap between it and the Mediterranean portion of the I2c map.

So what I am proposing is this: The ancestor of the Armenian cluster settled among the proto-Armenians around the beginning of their recorded history - perhaps as a trader entering the region via the Black Sea. His descendants became preeminent in Armenian society at some point early on and hence expanded their share in the Armenian haplogroup pool. Some members of their cluster became active in trading during the diaspora and consequently spread the haplogroup around the eastern Mediterranean, particularly in Italian trading colonies.

Armenians are also known to have established trading colonies in Russia and the Ukraine early on (beginning in Lvov in the 13th century), and later in Northern Europe, especially in Amsterdam. This might account for the lower but still measurable presence of their cluster in those areas.
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It is realy plausible that most of I2c spreaded over the world by Armenian settling . Conection of I2c with Venice is also realy interesting . If this helps I know for three waves of Armenian settling in Serbia and Bosnia : 1) after battle on Pločnik 1386 in which Serbs beaten Turks . Armenians who were fighting in battle on Turkic side like vassal army , crossed over on Serbian side during battle and they were settled in east Serbia ( there was few thousands fighters ) 2) In biger Turkic cities on Balkans there was always strong Armenian comunity - Niš , Sarajevo , Belgrade , Mostar , Travnik ,... 3) after genocide over Armenians in Asia Minor by Turks in 1920 -ies , some Armenians escaped in Yugoslavia , they center in Serbia ( where most of them settled ) was in Valjevo
 
Bodin said:
It is realy plausible that most of I2c spreaded over the world by Armenian settling . Conection of I2c with Venice is also realy interesting . If this helps I know for three waves of Armenian settling in Serbia and Bosnia........
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Thank you, Bodin. The Balkans I thought were the weakest link in my hypothesis. The question then is whether the y-dna STR data there supports an Armenian descent for the Balkan I2c's.

Sparkey, what is the difference between the European and Asian clusters you refer to and in your opinion do the eastern Med people fall into the former or the latter?

A further question to anyone else: is there any record of extensive Armenian settlement in the Peloponnese?
 
haithabu said:
Sparkey, what is the difference between the European and Asian clusters you refer to and in your opinion do the eastern Med people fall into the former or the latter?
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So far we don't have enough data on the European cluster. Probably, the "Z" subcluster on the FTDNA Project is the most interesting, with membership in Germany, Italy, Greece, and Bulgaria, but no Armenians. Unfortunately, we don't have similar STR data for the Balkans in particular. So it seems that Italian and Greek I2c-B tend to be closer to each other than to Armenians, but we need more data to reach further conclusions.
 
Sparkey, you didn't insert data for Normandy and southern France. They have quite a high percentage of this haplogroup.
 
Gosh said:
Sparkey, you didn't insert data for Normandy and southern France. They have quite a high percentage of this haplogroup.
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Really? Do you have a source I can look at for numbers? I'll update the map again if you can show me.
 
I notice that a 2005 study of Cyprus shows haplogroup I at 7.7% (clades not given). Given the island's history, I would guess that a fair bit of it is Armenian and therefore I2c.
 
haithabu said:
I notice that a 2005 study of Cyprus shows haplogroup I at 7.7% (clades not given). Given the island's history, I would guess that a fair bit of it is Armenian and therefore I2c.
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Was that only taken in South Cyprus or was it a combination of South and North? Either way, I agree, that indicates that I2c in Cyprus is at least trace, although I doubt it's as high as Crete (over 5%). It may be a place where we have both the "Z" I2c-B subcluster and the various Armenian subclusters present. It will probably be appropriate to add a trace or 1-5% range for Cyprus on the next update, although as you may notice, I'm being conservative with where I put I2c on my map.
 
sparkey said:
(1) Cluster A. It has a couple little expansions in the formerly Brythonic area of Scotland and the Emmental in Switzerland (that's mine and haithabu's), and very thinly spread elsewhere in Western Europe. It could be a Beaker relic that got incorporated into both certain Celtic and Germanic cultures, although Nordtvedt keeps changing its TMRCA estimate, so I'm not confident.

(2) Cluster C. It seems more solidly Germanic than A, although it doesn't seem to have really expanded anywhere, remaining a tiny minority everywhere.

(3) European Cluster B. This is the bit that haithabu is proposing has close ties to the Venetian Republic, although it has a little bit outside that area. We're also not certain that all the I2c in, say, the Balkans is Cluster B, but that's the operating assumption at the moment.

(4) Asian Cluster B. Most prevalent in Armenians, at least that's what studies have shown so far, but also has an interesting presence in Georgians (like you Kardu) and Balkarians. I still don't feel confident in any explanation but suspect that this is the result of something different than (3).

(5) Jewish Cluster B. So far entirely Eastern European Jews AFAIK. How this happened I don't know, but they are the youngest subcluster, so we have to look recent, possibly as an offshoot of (3) or (4). This is that big splotch on both maps north of the Black Sea.
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I'm bumping this to offer a bit more analysis after some rethinking of it... answering some remaining questions, if you will.

I am more confident about the distribution pattern of (1) now. It definitely seems that its TMRCA is younger than originally thought, probably stuck around the Iron Age. That, combined with the fact that its center of diversity seems to be along the Rhine but with an interestingly old Brythonic British cluster, makes me think that it was spread principally by the Iron Age Celts, with maybe some later Germanicized components getting spread by Alamanni and/or Anglo-Saxons. It has an affinity to I2a2b, which is also thought to have its modern spread resulting mostly from the Iron Age Celts, but I2c-A isn't as old as I2a2b, so it doesn't share the apparent abundance within Urnfield Culture (although it may have been a present minority clade there).

I am also quite sure that (5) is a child of (3) rather than (4), per Paul Givargidze. That presents a picture of (5) as being from a Medieval Jewish convert whose descendants populated Eastern Europe, interestingly farther north than than the spread of the rest of (3). The reason for this could be as simple as that convert or his descendants moving north.
 
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sorry
I'm just lost
Could somebody tell me what kind of Y-I is this HG? a new nomenclature for a set of Y-I2B previously I1c ???
excuse my ignorance and thank beforehand for your aswer.
 
MOESAN said:
sorry
I'm just lost
Could somebody tell me what kind of Y-I is this HG? a new nomenclature for a set of Y-I2B previously I1c ???
excuse my ignorance and thank beforehand for your aswer.
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It's the new nomenclature for most of former I2*. It's not very common in most places, although it is the most common Haplogroup I subclade in Crete and Armenia.

It's also mine, hence my interest.
 
thank you - So, not a downstream ex-I2b?
 
New Georgian results just came in and a representative of Vachandze noble family is HG I and possibly I2c.
His 12 markers are
14​
24​
15​
10​
12​
13​
11​
13​
10​
14​
11
​
31
​


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donauri
 
I'm sure you are not alone Kardu in regads for your haplogroup in Georgia. We'll see if the new results are finally I2c, perhaps you are descended of a noble too jaja.
 
Knovas said:
I'm sure you are not alone Kardu in regads for your haplogroup in Georgia. We'll see if the new results are finally I2c, perhaps you are descended of a noble too jaja.
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Yes, deep clade test results will be available in a few weeks. And yes, I am too of noble descent :):)

Actually so far we have 2 known Georgian I2c and now this one and all 3 of us belong to old nobility.
 
Kardu said:
Yes, deep clade test results will be available in a few weeks. And yes, I am too of noble descent :):)

Actually so far we have 2 known Georgian I2c and now this one and all 3 of us belong to old nobility.
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I'm becoming convinced that the nobility connection of Caucasian I2c-B is real. But is it just coincidence that Caucasian nobility have a rare European-origin haplogroup? Or does that pattern match something expected?

Here's another question: do the noble Georgian I2c and/or noble Armenian I2c cluster closely together? If so, the nobility connection is probably best explained by coincidence, and doesn't give us clues as to the origin of Caucasian I2c. If not, and they are diverse enough to connect at or near the MRCA of the cluster, then the nobility connection will likely actually explain the origin.
 
It's really curious that seems to be recurrent. Kardu, if you finally test the 30 Georgians you mentioned time ago (noble descent too if I remember well), would be good to know how many I2c appear ;)

PD: You should marry a beautiful Georgian princess :p
 
sparkey said:
I'm becoming convinced that the nobility connection of Caucasian I2c-B is real. But is it just coincidence that Caucasian nobility have a rare European-origin haplogroup? Or does that pattern match something expected?

Here's another question: do the noble Georgian I2c and/or noble Armenian I2c cluster closely together? If so, the nobility connection is probably best explained by coincidence, and doesn't give us clues as to the origin of Caucasian I2c. If not, and they are diverse enough to connect at or near the MRCA of the cluster, then the nobility connection will likely actually explain the origin.
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With the available data at hand I tend to think of Phrygian/Meskhi origin of the Caucasian I2c. As I've mentioned earlier on this forum Meskhi entry in the Caucasus 2800 years ago is a historical fact and they established themselves in south and central-east Georgia, exactly the are where our 3 families originate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushki
I've just got a confirmation by Prof. Nortdvedt that our new Georgian looks like a solid I2-14.
According to calculations I stand a bit apart from other Caucasian I2c and our TMRCA is about 3000+ years. Another Georgian clusters apart from Armenians as well. Still have to check the new guy.
 
Knovas said:
It's really curious that seems to be recurrent. Kardu, if you finally test the 30 Georgians you mentioned time ago (noble descent too if I remember well), would be good to know how many I2c appear ;)

PD: You should marry a beautiful Georgian princess :p
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Yes, we've got the first 6 another 24 will follow :)

As, for a princess, DNA test has revealed that my lady has enigmatic origins leading to Belgium/Southern Netherlands. So now I try to solve the puzzle :)
 
Kardu said:
With the available data at hand I tend to think of Phrygian/Meskhi origin of the Caucasian I2c. As I've mentioned earlier on this forum Meskhi entry in the Caucasus 2800 years ago is a historical fact and they established themselves in south and central-east Georgia, exactly the are where our 3 families originate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushki
I've just got a confirmation by Prof. Nortdvedt that our new Georgian looks like a solid I2-14.
According to calculations I stand a bit apart from other Caucasian I2c and our TMRCA is about 3000+ years. Another Georgian clusters apart from Armenians as well. Still have to check the new guy.
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It's still curious that Southeastern European I2c-B all clusters together, almost certainly with a later TMRCA than the Asian I2c-B... see Paul Givargidze.

But I think you may be right about the Meshkis anyway. All we need is...

(1) I2c-B in trace amount in Europe earlier than the Meshkis (some Western European members fit with this well enough, and indicate that the center of diversity of I2c-B is close to its I2c-A and I2c-C brothers, near the Rhine in their cases)
(2) Expansion from Southeastern Europe and later near-total replacement there (the dating of the Asian branches seem to square with this, as well as the history of Southeastern Europe, which has undergone numerous population shifts)
(3) Expansion of the Asian branch and a Southeastern European remnant independently (we already have explanations for why these may have happened)

Is the mystery of I2c unraveling?
 
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