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Thread: I2c frequency and diversity maps

  1. #76
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    the distribution and variance of these rare subclades of Y-I2c plus the distribution of other Y-I2 and even Y-I1 put me to suppose a central Europe ancient origin of their ancestors - the Y-I1 separated toward North (Baltic shores?) undergoing a pretty good growing lately and all the other scattered in Europe, only Y-I2a1b knowing a big demic growing in southeastern Europe among these last ones - the others (Y-I2C, Y-I2b, Y-I2a1a being scattered like archaic forms in remote coastal or mountainous regions, from N-W / S-W Europe to Caucasus and Anatolia?
    Can you put a timeline on some of these events? Like, there's a Central European origin for the ancestors of what, all of I? Or most subclades? And I1 separated from the rest of I when?

    Like, I think it's apparent based on STR variance (and even SNP variance) that the I1 branch split from the I2 branch before the LGM. There's no way it could have done it on the Baltic shores. Rather, we have to extrapolate back very far for it to guess where it split from I2. I think the easiest way to figure out I1 is to see which I2 subclade it is most closely linked to at the time of its initial expansion (it looks to be I2-M223), and then trace the migrations of that one. Well, I2-M223 is part of the I2a-L460 group, which has its center of diversity in France and dates back to a time contemporary with Solutrean culture... so if I had to hazard a guess, I would place I1 as being with I2a in the Franco-Iberian LGM refuge after it split with it... not that close to the Baltic shore. It's just that I1 bottlenecked, and didn't expand significantly, until the descendants of a particular carrier who lived close to the Baltic shore became successful much later.

    As for I2c, I agree that it's quite Central European in terms of its initial expansion, although it's curious that its closest brother clade, I2b-ADR, is clearly Adriatic in origin. That could imply a more Southeastern connection (Epigravettian culture? Balkans LGM refuge?) prior to its expansion than I2a and I1. So it ended up being Central European, but perhaps not for the same reason as many I2a subclades.

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    We've got about 12 new Georgian I2c members. Soon we will be able to publish the haplotypes (it's part of a scientific study but FTDNA is also involved). So it seems now we have the highest numbers in the Caucasus-Anatolia region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    We've got about 12 new Georgian I2c members. Soon we will be able to publish the haplotypes (it's part of a scientific study but FTDNA is also involved). So it seems now we have the highest numbers in the Caucasus-Anatolia region.
    Awesome. It will be interesting to see if they continue the patter of all Georgian I2c haplotypes falling into the West Asian branch of I2c*-B, or if we get some more ancient haplotypes in the mix.

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    Yeah, that's an amazing finding Kardu, totally agree with your analysis. By the way, sparkey, ¿which is your branch? Mainly Western European I guess.

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    In general they do look like West Asian branch of I2c*-B, but few of them have weird certain STR values, so 'sniping' will be required :)

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    Ok I see Kardu, thanks ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Yeah, that's an amazing finding Kardu, totally agree with your analysis. By the way, sparkey, ¿which is your branch? Mainly Western European I guess.
    Mine is the "A" branch (DYS393=13), which has minor peaks in the English/Scottish border region and around Switzerland/Southern Germany. It's more geographically limited than the "B" branch. My specific haplotype is concentrated around the Emmental in Switzerland.

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    Very interesting, thanks again :)

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    It's a pity that we don't have more data for Kurds. A better understanding of haplogroup I between them cane give many interesting answers. They are still some kind of mystery.

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    It's a pity that we don't have more data for Kurds. A better understanding of haplogroup I between them cane give many interesting answers. They are still some kind of mystery.
    But they were Indo-Europeans; as far as we know, they had little to no "I" subclades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    But they were Indo-Europeans; as far as we know, they had little to no "I" subclades.
    Were?

    Kurds are still hard-core Indo-Europeans who speak their own unique and distinguish Indo-European (Kurdic) language, with many dialects. We have our own unique Indo-European (Median, Iranic) culture and before Semitic religions we had our own Indo-European (Median) religions, Mazdaism, Zoroastrianism, Mithraism. Even today still some Kurds are practicing their own Indo-European (Median) religion, the Yezidism.

    Kurds are mostly J2a & R1a folks. Without hg. I2a Kurds would have much higher percentages of R1a & J2a. Other Indo-Europeans that share the same Y-DNA haplogroup J2a are Italians, Greeks, Bulgarians and folks in the Balkans. There's lots of hg. J2a in East-Europe!

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    I believe that I2-something in Kurdistan is from the Cimmerians and some Scythians from northern Caucasus, northwest Iranic people. But Kurds are mostly descendants of the ancient Medes (Umman Manda people) that defeated Semitic (Akkadian) tribes in Mesopotamia and even also some other Indo-European tribes like the Hittites and Scythian one.

    Although Kurds are also somehow mixed with Semitic people: Jews and Chaldeans

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    One way or another this thread is about I2c guys :) And so far not a single I2c among the Kurds

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    To stay on topic, I believe that y-DNA hg. I2c in West Asia is from the Celtic tribes that settled down in western parts of Anatolia from Greece long time ago.

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    Mod note: I just moved the continuation of the discussion about Kurds and Indo-European haplogroups to a new thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    To stay on topic, I believe that y-DNA hg. I2c in West Asia is from the Celtic tribes that settled down in western parts of Anatolia from Greece long time ago.
    It's possible. I think one of the big remaining questions about the distribution of Asian I2c*-B is its source population. Phrygians? Galatians? Somebody else?

    One thing that's appealing about guessing the Galatians is that the I2c*-A and I2c1 distribution back in Europe looks to have a close connection to ancient Celtic populations.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The thing is that there is no source whatsoever linking Galatians or any other Celts to the Caucasus.

    Apart from Phrygian/Mushki only Balkan origin peoples may have been Treri. Trialeti mountain range might have been named after them Trialeti=Land of Triali/Treli in Georgian.

    And I don't know if there is any link between Trialeti Culture and Balkans... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trialeti_culture

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    The frequency map:


    The diversity map:
    In Greece, Peloponese and ancient Macedonia => Dorians


    in Ireland => Darini



    in Illyria Daorsi

    The Daorsi lived in the valley of the Neretva River between 300 BC and 50 BC.
    ...
    The Daorsi used the Greek language and alphabet and kept trading relations with the Greeks.[5].

    After the Daorsi were attacked by the Delmatae,[8] they joined Issa[9] in seeking the protection of the Roman state. The Daorsi abandonedCaravantius and fought on the side of the Romans, contributing with their strong navy. After the Illyrian Wars the Romans gave the Daorsi immunity.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daorson




    in north Italy Taurini


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurini

    in Slovenia Taurisci
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurisci

    in England - Corieltauvi (number 15 on picture) - i think that probably -tauvi was originally -tauri

    and Carvetii (number 3 on picture) - i think they are settlement of Corieltauvi with tribal name adapted to welsh





    this all seems to be related to taurus - bull


    so, in Asia minor, perhaps related to Taurus mountains... or to bull worship in Hittite and Hurrian may be link

    in the Hurrian and Hittite mythologies as Seri and Hurri (Day and Night)—the bulls who carried the weather god Teshub on their backs or in his chariot, and grazed on the ruins of cities
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_worship

    two bulls - Seri and Hurri
    Serians and Hurrians...

    regarding Armenia
    The name Armenia enters English via Latin, from Ancient Greek Ἀρμενία. The Armenian endonym for the Armenian people and country is hayer and hayk’, respectively.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armen_tribes

    hayer - might be Hurrians related?


    btw. any data for Dargins/Darginians?
    they match tribal name pattern and have 58% haplogroup I according to
    http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/caucasus.pdf


    in Celtic areas looks like hotspot is in Switzerland, so perhaps Helvetii...

    curious is that tribal name of Helvetii is interpreted as "rich in land" and if I am not mistaken same thing is captured for Croat name in De administrando imperio....
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetii


    so, while lower hotspot in Illyria are Daorsi...
    flat spread and upper hotspot may be related to Croats as well...


    ancient Hurrian link?

    Helvetii and Scordisci - perhaps Hurrians and Serians of Celtic world named after 2 bulls Seri and Hurri...
    btw. kingdom of Urartu resembles core of Asian spread

    Last edited by how yes no 3; 13-04-13 at 18:08.

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    High percentage of HG I in Dargins is due to some error.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    regarding Carvetii in UK...

    after introducing link of I2c to Croats (Hrvati), it makes sense that it is tribal name related to Croat tribal name...

    btw. link to map of british tribes (the one with numbers) is:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient.../iron_01.shtml

    there is a remark there that
    The Carvetti might have been a smaller tribe within the large kingdom or federation of the Brigantes.
    Brigantes tribal name is in my opinion of same origin as Bryges/Phrygians...
    so, this part of UK could have been settled via sea from Asia minor....

    I find this plausible also because some other people have travelled long way along sea to new lands...

    I will remind here, once again, on Celtic Iberia and Scotish myth of origin
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Arbroath

    http://www.nas.gov.uk/about/090401.asp
    Most Holy Father, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. It journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage peoples, but nowhere could it be subdued by any people, however barbarous. Thence it came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to its home in the west where it still lives today. The Britons it first drove out, the Picts it utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes and the English, it took possession of that home with many victories and untold efforts; and, as the histories of old time bear witness, they have held it free of all servitude ever since. In their kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of their own royal stock, the line unbroken by a single foreigner.
    those are Caledonii (number 1 on map) and there are Caladuni in Spain
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...eria_300BC.svg

    next to Caladuni in Spain is tribe Seurbi, and nearby is also a tribe named Helleni

    the whole area is painted as partly Celtic, partly pre-Celtic proto-IndoEuropean


    The Seurbi were an ancient Celtic tribe of Gallaecia, living in the north of modern Portugal, in the province of Minho, between the rivers Cávado and Lima (or even reaching the river Minho).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seurbi

    I was writing about this on thread
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...theast-Ireland
    there I have proposed that Darini are Greek Dorians..
    there I have refered to existence of Doric dialect in mid Scotland
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_dialect_(Scotland)

    on Balkan there are also Chelidones that are Illyrian tribe.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_tribes#Chelidones

    my claim is that illyrians were celtic people... I base this on greek myth that says Illyrius, Celtus and Galas are brothers... if 2 of 3 brothers are Celtic, what is third brother?

    we know that there was Celtic Iberia...and that Caleduni and Seurbi are in it....
    so, why wouldn't Carvetii who live on sea shores be also celtic people that settle UK via sea?
    ...

    these links to possibly Celtic origin of tribes related by names to Serbs and Croats, is relevant regarding my claim that some of I2 people were Celtic and that I2a-Dinaric was probably also Celtic prior to becoming Slavic ....

    essentially I claim that modern Serbs origin from Serdi who are Celtic people that became thrachanized and that similar might have been the case with Croats and Carpi...and i explain why R1a proto-Slavs are Venethi complex (Dacians, Thracians, Moesians and few north Dalmatia tribes) that moved towards north with spread of Roman empire and took name "slobodni" Venethi of Slo-venethi... remember "free Dacians" here..

    ..for more info about this see
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...irii-and-Hirri

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    No , brigantes was typical English Celtic people's not men from turkey (Asia minor).

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    Brigantes had no link whatsoever to the Phrygians who where so similar to Lydians (also from Asia Minor) that probably had J2. Brigantes was typical R1b men , not colonizer a to England from Asia MinorMinor

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    The Georgian-Armenian nobility story is fascinating. It would imply that I2c was anything but "native hunter gatherers subdued first by early farmers, than by Indo-Europeans". Considering that the Lichtenstein cave, obviously a burial site for the local elite, contained mainly I2a people, the same appears to be true for other I2 clades.

    As to the I2c East European Jews, one should consider that cities in the Rhineland (Cologne, Mainz, Worms, Speyer) had quite sizeable Jewish communities in the early middle ages.
    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%BC...6ln#Emigration
    Infolge der mittelalterlichen Pogrome und der endgültigen Ausweisung 1424 entschlossen sich wohl auch viele der Kölner Juden zur Auswanderung in osteuropäische Länder wie Polen und Litauen, in denen sich in der Folge das Jiddisch als Umgangssprache aus dem Hebräischen, Mittelhochdeutschen und Slawischen entwickelte. Die Nachkommen dieser Emigranten kehrten Anfang des 19. Jahrhunderts zurück und wohnten dann hauptsächlich im Bereich der Thieboldsgasse südöstlich des Neumarktes.
    That section is missing in the English version of the article. Translation:
    "As a consequence of medieval progroms [1349] and the expulsion in 1424, many Jews from Cologne decided to emigrate to East European countries such as Poland and Lithuania, where subsequently Yiddish emerged as colloquial language from Hebraic, Middle High German and Slavonic. The descendants of these emigrants returned in the early 19th century and settled mainly in the Thieboldsgasse area south-east of the Neumarkt."


    This might possibly explain part of the eastern spread, and the back-migration of Eastern European Jews is a plausible explanation for the high diversity along the Rhine. I would furthermore expect the I2c East European Jews to have been more geographically widespread before the holocaust - the "central European gap" in the distribution is probably a recent phenomenon.

    Finally, the crusades (with strong participation from Eastern France and the Rhineland) may have contributed to the Anatolian spread. After the fall of the Crusader States, part of the population (including the Frankish nobility) sought refuge in the nearby Christian states, i.e. Armenia and Georgia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Edessa

    If the Crusaders played a role in disseminating I2c, this should also have led to increased shares on Cyprus ad Rhodes.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankN View Post
    This might possibly explain part of the eastern spread, and the back-migration of Eastern European Jews is a plausible explanation for the high diversity along the Rhine. I would furthermore expect the I2c East European Jews to have been more geographically widespread before the holocaust - the "central European gap" in the distribution is probably a recent phenomenon.
    I'm not particularly satisfied to guess a total displacement of Jewish I2c-B carriers explaining the lack of I2c in north-central Europe. It's a young enough cluster that it looks more like an expansion than a displacement to me (not that those are mutually exclusive). Unfortunately, I2c PF3881-, which the Jewish cluster is part of, has a pretty bushy tree structure where the Jewish cluster connects, so it's difficult to establish whether it came from Germany, or from Mediterranean Europe, or somewhere else.


    I've been leaning toward a broad, ancient Mediterranean affinity of I2c that often ventured to transalpine regions, but rarely very far away. Indeed, I2c-PF3881 is a very good candidate to have originated in the transalpine region, but I wouldn't guess it much farther north than southern Germany. I think that would explain the distribution more cleanly.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrankN View Post
    Finally, the crusades (with strong participation from Eastern France and the Rhineland) may have contributed to the Anatolian spread. After the fall of the Crusader States, part of the population (including the Frankish nobility) sought refuge in the nearby Christian states, i.e. Armenia and Georgia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Edessa
    The Armenian cluster is too diverse to come from the Crusades IMHO. It is nearly as diverse as I2c PF3881- as a whole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    The Armenian cluster is too diverse to come from the Crusades IMHO. It is nearly as diverse as I2c PF3881- as a whole.
    I did not mean to say the Crusades were the only, not even the main source of the Armenian cluster, as the Armenian-Georgian nobility apparently dates back to earlier times. But the Crusades could have added to the spread and diversity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankN View Post
    The Georgian-Armenian nobility story is fascinating. It would imply that I2c was anything but "native hunter gatherers subdued first by early farmers, than by Indo-Europeans". Considering that the Lichtenstein cave, obviously a burial site for the local elite, contained mainly I2a people, the same appears to be true for other I2 clades.

    As to the I2c East European Jews, one should consider that cities in the Rhineland (Cologne, Mainz, Worms, Speyer) had quite sizeable Jewish communities in the early middle ages.
    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%BC...6ln#Emigration

    That section is missing in the English version of the article. Translation:
    "As a consequence of medieval progroms [1349] and the expulsion in 1424, many Jews from Cologne decided to emigrate to East European countries such as Poland and Lithuania, where subsequently Yiddish emerged as colloquial language from Hebraic, Middle High German and Slavonic. The descendants of these emigrants returned in the early 19th century and settled mainly in the Thieboldsgasse area south-east of the Neumarkt."


    This might possibly explain part of the eastern spread, and the back-migration of Eastern European Jews is a plausible explanation for the high diversity along the Rhine. I would furthermore expect the I2c East European Jews to have been more geographically widespread before the holocaust - the "central European gap" in the distribution is probably a recent phenomenon.

    Finally, the crusades (with strong participation from Eastern France and the Rhineland) may have contributed to the Anatolian spread. After the fall of the Crusader States, part of the population (including the Frankish nobility) sought refuge in the nearby Christian states, i.e. Armenia and Georgia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Edessa

    If the Crusaders played a role in disseminating I2c, this should also have led to increased shares on Cyprus ad Rhodes.
    which I2c subclades do you refer to as being Jewish............I have a relative who is this marker

    correct me if I am wrong ..is I2c 12000 years old?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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