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Thread: I2a2b-Isles and Ireland

  1. #26
    Regular Member Keegah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eireannach View Post
    The Ulster Scots largely did not interbreed with the native Irish (and to this day remain a separate identifiable community). They also in the main did not emigrate to America at the same time as the native Irish. Most Ulster Scot migration to America occured in the 1700's and early 1800's. Native Irish emigration occured during this time but not to the same extent until the mid 1800's when it sky rocketed as a result of the Potato Famine.

    They also did not really associate with each other in America
    Well that's... pretty confusing. One, my earliest ancestor we've found so far, Joseph Todd, who was born and lived in derry, had a wife with a Gaelic maiden name. Ann Schanon, which as I've found is a pre anglicization of Shannon. He left to America with her and settled in an Irish community, where my family stayed for a few generations. Most of Joseph and Ann Todd's children married Irish spouses. This went on for a fair amount of time.

    So that makes me, once again, lean towards my family originally not being Todd until around the Ulster plantation. But other than gibbins I haven't found any potential predecessor surnames. Still, information is information. Thank you very much for the information sir.

  2. #27
    Regular Member Eireannach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keegah View Post
    Well that's... pretty confusing. One, my earliest ancestor we've found so far, Joseph Todd, who was born and lived in derry, had a wife with a Gaelic maiden name. Ann Schanon, which as I've found is a pre anglicization of Shannon. He left to America with her and settled in an Irish community, where my family stayed for a few generations. Most of Joseph and Ann Todd's children married Irish spouses. This went on for a fair amount of time.
    Are you sure about that? Schanon as you've spelled it doesn't evenly remotely look like a Gaelic name that has been anglicised, however it is possible.

    Shannon is Ó Seannacháin or Ó Seanáin in Irish. There is another version Ó Sionáin (Sheenan) that is found more commonly in Ulster.

  3. #28
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    No, I'm not. I'm mostly basing that off whenever I search for schanon the search engine corrects it to Shannon, and when I force it to search for schanon, the only results - of which there are very few - claim it's Irish. A pretty big leap, but considering I can't find "schanon" almost anywhere and its constantly mistaken for Shannon, it made sense to me. Do you have any idea of the names origin?

    Now I'm reading that it looks it might be a German translation of Shannon. I'm looking a German Lutheran baptismal record of a family whose surname was Shannon. In the record, William was changed to wilhelm, amelia was changed to emilie, and Shannon was changed to schanon.

  4. #29
    Regular Member Eireannach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keegah View Post
    No, I'm not. I'm mostly basing that off whenever I search for schanon the search engine corrects it to Shannon, and when I force it to search for schanon, the only results - of which there are very few - claim it's Irish. A pretty big leap, but considering I can't find "schanon" almost anywhere and its constantly mistaken for Shannon, it made sense to me. Do you have any idea of the names origin?

    Now I'm reading that it looks it might be a German translation of Shannon. I'm looking a German Lutheran baptismal record of a family whose surname was Shannon. In the record, William was changed to wilhelm, amelia was changed to emilie, and Shannon was changed to schanon.
    Shannon in the form Ó Seanacháin (which is also Shanahan) is a Dál gCais name from north Munster. Ó Sionáin (Sheenan as opposed to Shannon) is sometimes considered a variant of Ó Seanáin which is a County Tyrone sept. It is also Shinane, a west Clare name now widely changed to Shannon and spelled Ó Seanáin in Irish.


    Confused?

  5. #30
    Regular Member Keegah's Avatar
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    No, I understood you the first time regarding Shannon. I was asking about Schanon, which is the proper spelling of my ancestor, Joseph Todd's, wife's maiden name. Like I said, I'm leaning towards it being a Germanization of Shannon on account of the baptismal record, and the way "sch" seems to be pronounced in German (schnitzel). But I have not found a single straight definition or description of the name. What seems to be the case is that most European instances of the surname derive from Ireland. Whether it's native or not, I don't know.

    Another question if you wouldn't mind answering sir. I've read that Ulster Scots named their children with typically English names once they arrived in America, like James and John. Did they do the same in Ireland?

    Again, thank you for your time and assistance.

  6. #31
    Regular Member Eireannach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keegah View Post
    No, I understood you the first time regarding Shannon. I was asking about Schanon, which is the proper spelling of my ancestor, Joseph Todd's, wife's maiden name. Like I said, I'm leaning towards it being a Germanization of Shannon on account of the baptismal record, and the way "sch" seems to be pronounced in German (schnitzel). But I have not found a single straight definition or description of the name. What seems to be the case is that most European instances of the surname derive from Ireland. Whether it's native or not, I don't know.

    Another question if you wouldn't mind answering sir. I've read that Ulster Scots named their children with typically English names once they arrived in America, like James and John. Did they do the same in Ireland?

    Again, thank you for your time and assistance.
    Yes the Ulster Scots named their children with typically English and Scottish names and have always done so. Have you ever heard of the plantation of Ulster?

  7. #32
    Regular Member Keegah's Avatar
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    Yes, I have. English colonization of protestants, mostly Scots, on confiscated Irish land in Ulster. Happened in the mid 1600s.

    Was Patrick used by the Scots/English as a given name? Also, by the 1800s, had at least some Ulster Scots converted to Catholicism?

    Thanks.

  8. #33
    Regular Member Keegah's Avatar
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    It just struck me. Would a Catholic Ulster Scot intermarry with the native Irish? It seems like most of the animosity between the Irish and the Ulster Scots was due to Protestant-Catholic conflict. If an Ulster Scot was Catholic, as my ancestor was, would that eliminate the issue?

    If not, a Todd marrying a Shannon, followed by that Todd's son marrying a Dempsey, seems very strange.

  9. #34
    Regular Member Eireannach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keegah View Post
    It just struck me. Would a Catholic Ulster Scot intermarry with the native Irish? It seems like most of the animosity between the Irish and the Ulster Scots was due to Protestant-Catholic conflict. If an Ulster Scot was Catholic, as my ancestor was, would that eliminate the issue?

    If not, a Todd marrying a Shannon, followed by that Todd's son marrying a Dempsey, seems very strange.
    There is no such thing to my knowledge of a Catholic Ulster Scot and if there is they are few and far between and probably a more recent phenomenon. The Catholic people in Ulster would in the main be descendants of the original inhabitants.

    The animosity between the Irish and the Ulster Scots is not a religious one. The two communities can be easily seperated and identified by their religion, however it is not the principle reason for their animostiy. That reason is a political one. The Ulster Scots (protestants, although many protestants are not Ulster Scots and would be descended from English settlers and the Ulster Scots would tend to be more of a Prebysterian persuasion) wish for Northern Ireland to remain in the UK, the Irish (Catholic) wish for it to be reunited with the Republic.

  10. #35
    Regular Member Keegah's Avatar
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    I'm not referring to the present day situation of Ireland or its Ulster Scottish inhabitants, I'm referring to a man born in 1798, bearing a Scottish surname, that was irrefutably catholic. Upon immigrating to the US, he founded the first catholic church in southern Illinois, where he, and his wife, and his children, and his children's children, and their children, right up until my grandfather left the community, were buried. He clearly had a Scottish/English surname in Todd - he was born and lived in Derry. Unless his family changed their surname when the English arrived, which I briefly considered but no longer believe to be likely, it appears evident to me that he was an Ulster Scot. If he isn't, what would you suggest he is?

  11. #36
    Regular Member Eireannach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keegah View Post
    I'm not referring to the present day situation of Ireland or its Ulster Scottish inhabitants, I'm referring to a man born in 1798, bearing a Scottish surname, that was irrefutably catholic. Upon immigrating to the US, he founded the first catholic church in southern Illinois, where he, and his wife, and his children, and his children's children, and their children, right up until my grandfather left the community, were buried. He clearly had a Scottish/English surname in Todd - he was born and lived in Derry. Unless his family changed their surname when the English arrived, which I briefly considered but no longer believe to be likely, it appears evident to me that he was an Ulster Scot. If he isn't, what would you suggest he is?
    It is an interesting and unusal situation. Todd in Ireland is both of English and Scottish extraction and appeared in the 1659 census. There can be many explanations, here are just a few obvious ones:

    1) The family were present in Ireland before the major plantations of the 1600's and were Catholic. (Probably the most likely scenario)
    2) The family were protestant planters who at some stage converted to Catholicism. This is unlikely as Catholics (and Presbyterians to some extent) in Ireland from the 1660's into the 1800 's were subject to Penal Laws.
    3) A Catholic Irish family adopted the name Todd as their surname for unknown reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    I found the following comment informative.
    Thanks for quoting me earlier. I would like to add a little too. The most up-to-date nomenclature for this L161 positive 'Isles' clade is now I2a1b2-Isles, according to Ken Nordtvedt. It is certainly old, but arguably M26 positive forms of I2a got to Britain first.

    The small clade has an emerging presence on the north European plain with Germany foremost, which we are finding as the databases gradually increase at glacial rates. All of the 8 subclades have been found on the continent in very small numbers. Nordtvedt, however, is of the view that the oldest subclades [B1, B2] were founded somewhere in northern Germany but that clades C1 and C2 were founded most likely in Ireland with D1 and D2 as offshoots of C.

    To reiterate, maybe there is a connection with pre-Gaelic peoples in Ireland for 'Isles' but in England and lowland Scotland it seems far more likely that 'Isles' was carried as a minority alongside I1, R1b etc by Anglo-Saxon invaders.

    It is true that the bulk of this clade is found in Ireland but it really should not be regarded as an Irish clade per se, as there is a relatively fair smattering of 'Isles' in England and lowland Scotland for a very small clade.

    The I2a clade that seems to centre in Scotland is an intermediate 'Disles' form, which is actually closer to the Balkans-centred 'Dinaric' forms.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    Thanks for quoting me earlier. I would like to add a little too. The most up-to-date nomenclature for this L161 positive 'Isles' clade is now I2a1b2-Isles, according to Ken Nordtvedt. It is certainly old, but arguably M26 positive forms of I2a got to Britain first.

    The small clade has an emerging presence on the north European plain with Germany foremost, which we are finding as the databases gradually increase at glacial rates. All of the 8 subclades have been found on the continent in very small numbers. Nordtvedt, however, is of the view that the oldest subclades [B1, B2] were founded somewhere in northern Germany but that clades C1 and C2 were founded most likely in Ireland with D1 and D2 as offshoots of C.

    To reiterate, maybe there is a connection with pre-Gaelic peoples in Ireland for 'Isles' but in England and lowland Scotland it seems far more likely that 'Isles' was carried as a minority alongside I1, R1b etc by Anglo-Saxon invaders.
    Yes, although I would argue fairly strongly that an Anglo-Saxon influence for I2a-Isles is limited to the "B" cluster, as, although old, it is the only one that appears outside of the British Isles. The center of diversity of I2a-Isles as a whole is in Britain, barely, with the TMRCA of the whole thing being about 6,000 years old... so it's not entirely clear whether its MRCA lived in Britain, or on the Continent, or in Doggerland.

    Either way, I actually think it got there before I2a1a. I2a1a didn't start expanding out of Southwestern Europe until around the same time the MRCA of I2a-Isles lived, and the MRCA of I2a-Isles lived either in or very close to Britain... giving it a large head start. Its later bottleneck is consistent with the fact that Britain remained a hunter-gatherer area until late. So, once the Neolithic reached Britain (and probably I2a1a with it), I2a-Isles, or at least a cluster or two of it (all but B? Just C/D? Some extinct cousins?), was probably already there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    The I2a clade that seems to centre in Scotland is an intermediate 'Disles' form, which is actually closer to the Balkans-centred 'Dinaric' forms.
    Disles is more of a mystery. Later, earlier, or peer arrival to Britain with I2a-Isles?

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Yes, although I would argue fairly strongly that an Anglo-Saxon influence for I2a-Isles is limited to the "B" cluster, as, although old, it is the only one that appears outside of the British Isles. The center of diversity of I2a-Isles as a whole is in Britain, barely, with the TMRCA of the whole thing being about 6,000 years old... so it's not entirely clear whether its MRCA lived in Britain, or on the Continent, or in Doggerland.

    Either way, I actually think it got there before I2a1a. I2a1a didn't start expanding out of Southwestern Europe until around the same time the MRCA of I2a-Isles lived, and the MRCA of I2a-Isles lived either in or very close to Britain... giving it a large head start. Its later bottleneck is consistent with the fact that Britain remained a hunter-gatherer area until late. So, once the Neolithic reached Britain (and probably I2a1a with it), I2a-Isles, or at least a cluster or two of it (all but B? Just C/D? Some extinct cousins?), was probably already there.



    Disles is more of a mystery. Later, earlier, or peer arrival to Britain with I2a-Isles?
    Sparkey,
    I know that Jean Manco holds the view that it is the 'B' subclades that can be associated with the Anglo-Saxons but I am not so sure. Nordtvedt has continental examples from A, C and D subclades too, I believe. I seem to remember a German 'Krause' in either D1 or D2, for example. All the 8 subclades have been found in England too. I know of an example of an 'Isles' D2 who tested with Peter Forster at RootsforReal. Forster ran the D2 signature [supposedly so 'Irish'..] through his massive, anonymous Cambridge database and the hotspot came out as Germany. This was using 43 markers rather than a 'bikini' haplotype, by the way. I suspect that there is more out there on the continent than we realise. We need more samples for definate, and the databases fill so slowly.

    Nordtvedt definately sees the M26 I2a as hitting the shores before 'Isles'. I believe that 'Disles' is younger than 'Isles' according to his calculations.

    In any case, Ydna is only a fraction of our ancestry. Personally, I am far more into autosomal dna these days. I think we sometimes place too much stall in Y haplogroups in terms of identity. For me, it is the overall picture that counts not so much these smaller parts.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    Sparkey,
    I know that Jean Manco holds the view that it is the 'B' subclades that can be associated with the Anglo-Saxons but I am not so sure. Nordtvedt has continental examples from A, C and D subclades too, I believe. I seem to remember a German 'Krause' in either D1 or D2, for example. All the 8 subclades have been found in England too. I know of an example of an 'Isles' D2 who tested with Peter Forster at RootsforReal. Forster ran the D2 signature [supposedly so 'Irish'..] through his massive, anonymous Cambridge database and the hotspot came out as Germany. This was using 43 markers rather than a 'bikini' haplotype, by the way. I suspect that there is more out there on the continent than we realise. We need more samples for definate, and the databases fill so slowly.
    Interesting points, I've been going mostly by the I2a Project, and would be interested in seeing how future diversity analyses within these clusters turns out. Right now, though, there's enough diversity of each cluster on the fringes of the British Isles (B being an interesting geographic exception, but still diverse enough) to make it a stiff metric for the continental samples to meet. Backmigrations are always possible, so we need more data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    Nortvedt definately sees the M26 I2a as hitting the shores before 'Isles'. I believe that 'Disles' is younger than 'Isles' according to his calculations.
    I find Nordtvedt's conclusion still unconvincing, but I'm open to the possibility. I mean, it seems clear that I2a-Isles was a Northwestern haplogroup by the time it bottlenecked, which basically places it as Northwestern in the Mesolithic, British or not. This gives all kinds of possibilities for carriers of all the requisite SNPs to have been back and forth from Britain before the Neolithic even arrived, or the last single-individual bottleneck of I2a-Isles even occurred. Add to that the very real possibility that the MRCA of I2a-Isles could have been insular, or at least the MRCA of C/D, and I don't think that the Neolithic spread of I2a1a really has a shot. I'd give it about a 5% chance, with I2a-Isles needing to have all its modern clusters later arrivals (I find this less likely than not) and to have its extinct pre-I2a1a-spread clusters completely non-British (I find this much less likely than not).

    Of course, if we're talking about the extant populations only (no extinct clusters allowed), the possibility that I2a1a beats it increases, but like I mentioned, I still find that less likely than not.

    Disles is younger in terms of TMRCA, yes, but that just says when it expanded out of a single-individual bottleneck, not when it reached its current location. I think the more telling statistic is that the I2a-Isles-A/B split with I2a-Isles-C/D is older than the I2a-Disles split with I2a-Dinaric. That has made me believe that I2a-Disles is newer, but how Disles and Dinaric got so radically separated is hard to tell.

  16. #41
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    Don't suppose anyone on this forum has a surname of Shinnick, O'Sionnaigh, or Fox (if you know your ancestors were Irish)? If so, I'd appreciate getting into contact with you and asking some questions. Either here in this thread of via PM is fine, whichever you prefer.

    Also, for the individuals here that are currently living in Ireland, are any of you familiar with Derry, specifically Templemore?

    Thanks.

  17. #42
    Regular Member Eireannach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keegah View Post
    Also, for the individuals here that are currently living in Ireland, are any of you familiar with Derry, specifically Templemore?

    Thanks.
    Just know its out the Buncrana rd

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eireannach View Post
    The Ulster Scots largely did not interbreed with the native Irish (and to this day remain a separate identifiable community). They also in the main did not emigrate to America at the same time as the native Irish. Most Ulster Scot migration to America occured in the 1700's and early 1800's. Native Irish emigration occured during this time but not to the same extent until the mid 1800's when it sky rocketed as a result of the Potato Famine.

    They also did not really associate with each other in America

    There are lot of people that are not native to the British Isles but who are "experts" on it case in point.

  19. #44
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    The irish and norwegians have the highest northwest admixture in europe.

  20. #45
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    What's your point? And, no offense meant, what does it have to do with the question that I asked?

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    How do you tell if you are Isles A, B, C, D?

    Pardon my ignorance, but how do you tell if you are Isles A, B, C, D?
    My haplogroup subclade is I2a2b M423+ L161+
    Surname is Nance, probable origin is Cornwall, England.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Pardon my ignorance, but how do you tell if you are Isles A, B, C, D?
    My haplogroup subclade is I2a2b M423+ L161+
    Surname is Nance, probable origin is Cornwall, England.
    We need to look at your STR markers, as I mentioned in reply to your first post. Did you test through FTDNA?

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    Thanks for your help Sparky, here they are:

    DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II
    13 24 16 11 12-15 11 12 11 13 11 30

    Yes, this was through FTDNA
    Last edited by [email protected]; 13-08-12 at 19:00. Reason: Answer additional question

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Thanks for your help Sparky, here they are:

    DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II
    13 24 16 11 12-15 11 12 11 13 11 30

    Yes, this was through FTDNA
    Replied here, let's keep the discussion on that thread.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Niall View Post
    There are lot of people that are not native to the British Isles but who are "experts" on it case in point.

    What do you mean?

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