I2a2b-Isles and Ireland

I2a-Isles has a center of diversity that spans both Britain and Ireland, seeing that all of its main STR clusters are present in both places, so we can't place its MRCA location very precisely, but we can be fairly sure that he was insular. The TMRCA of I2a-Isles makes it perhaps the best candidate for the status as the dominant haplogroup of the Grooved Ware peoples. That means that, as a clade, it spans the different ethnicities of the British Isles, and determining which particular ethnicity your I2a-Isles line passed through will need to utilize STR comparisons (as you're already doing, good job).

It would actually be very interesting if I2a2b in Ireland is really derived from the Grooved Ware Culture. I mean, if this is the case then it's clearly pre-Indo-European, and would as such obviously predate the emergence of all historically known ethnicities of the British Isles.
 
Pardon my ignorance, but are the Grooved Ware people and the Cruthins one in the same? Both searches yield results claiming that they're the original inhabitants of the British Isles.
 
Pardon my ignorance, but are the Grooved Ware people and the Cruthins one in the same? Both searches yield results claiming that they're the original inhabitants of the British Isles.

Well, I'm inclined to disagree. In my opinion, the Cruthin (that's the modern Irish name, the original name would have been something like "Kʷritani") were the first Celtic inhabitants of Britain, and in turn, the name "Britain" (Welsh "Prydain") derives from them.

As far as I understand it, the term "Cruthin" was more or less the Irish exonym for the same people whom the Romans called "Picts". From what little is known about the Pictish language however (which appears to have been similar to Brythonic and Gaulish), these were a Celtic people.

I mean, it's unclear when exactly the first Celtic or otherwise Indo-European people arrived on the British Isles, wether it was during the Copper Age or during the Bronze Age, but it's clear that the Grooved Ware Culture came to an end with the arrival of the Beaker-Bell Culture.
 
This seems kind of obvious to me, but just to be sure... I have a few questions.

Did Ulster Scots interbreed with the native Irish, and did Ulster Scots immigrate to America along with the native Irish? And, once there, did they remain with and around the Irish in their immigrant communities?

As always, thank you.

The Ulster Scots largely did not interbreed with the native Irish (and to this day remain a separate identifiable community). They also in the main did not emigrate to America at the same time as the native Irish. Most Ulster Scot migration to America occured in the 1700's and early 1800's. Native Irish emigration occured during this time but not to the same extent until the mid 1800's when it sky rocketed as a result of the Potato Famine.

They also did not really associate with each other in America
 
The Ulster Scots largely did not interbreed with the native Irish (and to this day remain a separate identifiable community). They also in the main did not emigrate to America at the same time as the native Irish. Most Ulster Scot migration to America occured in the 1700's and early 1800's. Native Irish emigration occured during this time but not to the same extent until the mid 1800's when it sky rocketed as a result of the Potato Famine.

They also did not really associate with each other in America

Well that's... pretty confusing. One, my earliest ancestor we've found so far, Joseph Todd, who was born and lived in derry, had a wife with a Gaelic maiden name. Ann Schanon, which as I've found is a pre anglicization of Shannon. He left to America with her and settled in an Irish community, where my family stayed for a few generations. Most of Joseph and Ann Todd's children married Irish spouses. This went on for a fair amount of time.

So that makes me, once again, lean towards my family originally not being Todd until around the Ulster plantation. But other than gibbins I haven't found any potential predecessor surnames. Still, information is information. Thank you very much for the information sir.
 
Well that's... pretty confusing. One, my earliest ancestor we've found so far, Joseph Todd, who was born and lived in derry, had a wife with a Gaelic maiden name. Ann Schanon, which as I've found is a pre anglicization of Shannon. He left to America with her and settled in an Irish community, where my family stayed for a few generations. Most of Joseph and Ann Todd's children married Irish spouses. This went on for a fair amount of time.

Are you sure about that? Schanon as you've spelled it doesn't evenly remotely look like a Gaelic name that has been anglicised, however it is possible.

Shannon is Ó Seannacháin or Ó Seanáin in Irish. There is another version Ó Sionáin (Sheenan) that is found more commonly in Ulster.
 
No, I'm not. I'm mostly basing that off whenever I search for schanon the search engine corrects it to Shannon, and when I force it to search for schanon, the only results - of which there are very few - claim it's Irish. A pretty big leap, but considering I can't find "schanon" almost anywhere and its constantly mistaken for Shannon, it made sense to me. Do you have any idea of the names origin?

Now I'm reading that it looks it might be a German translation of Shannon. I'm looking a German Lutheran baptismal record of a family whose surname was Shannon. In the record, William was changed to wilhelm, amelia was changed to emilie, and Shannon was changed to schanon.
 
No, I'm not. I'm mostly basing that off whenever I search for schanon the search engine corrects it to Shannon, and when I force it to search for schanon, the only results - of which there are very few - claim it's Irish. A pretty big leap, but considering I can't find "schanon" almost anywhere and its constantly mistaken for Shannon, it made sense to me. Do you have any idea of the names origin?

Now I'm reading that it looks it might be a German translation of Shannon. I'm looking a German Lutheran baptismal record of a family whose surname was Shannon. In the record, William was changed to wilhelm, amelia was changed to emilie, and Shannon was changed to schanon.

Shannon in the form Ó Seanacháin (which is also Shanahan) is a Dál gCais name from north Munster. Ó Sionáin (Sheenan as opposed to Shannon) is sometimes considered a variant of Ó Seanáin which is a County Tyrone sept. It is also Shinane, a west Clare name now widely changed to Shannon and spelled Ó Seanáin in Irish.


Confused?
 
No, I understood you the first time regarding Shannon. I was asking about Schanon, which is the proper spelling of my ancestor, Joseph Todd's, wife's maiden name. Like I said, I'm leaning towards it being a Germanization of Shannon on account of the baptismal record, and the way "sch" seems to be pronounced in German (schnitzel). But I have not found a single straight definition or description of the name. What seems to be the case is that most European instances of the surname derive from Ireland. Whether it's native or not, I don't know.

Another question if you wouldn't mind answering sir. I've read that Ulster Scots named their children with typically English names once they arrived in America, like James and John. Did they do the same in Ireland?

Again, thank you for your time and assistance.
 
No, I understood you the first time regarding Shannon. I was asking about Schanon, which is the proper spelling of my ancestor, Joseph Todd's, wife's maiden name. Like I said, I'm leaning towards it being a Germanization of Shannon on account of the baptismal record, and the way "sch" seems to be pronounced in German (schnitzel). But I have not found a single straight definition or description of the name. What seems to be the case is that most European instances of the surname derive from Ireland. Whether it's native or not, I don't know.

Another question if you wouldn't mind answering sir. I've read that Ulster Scots named their children with typically English names once they arrived in America, like James and John. Did they do the same in Ireland?

Again, thank you for your time and assistance.

Yes the Ulster Scots named their children with typically English and Scottish names and have always done so. Have you ever heard of the plantation of Ulster?
 
Yes, I have. English colonization of protestants, mostly Scots, on confiscated Irish land in Ulster. Happened in the mid 1600s.

Was Patrick used by the Scots/English as a given name? Also, by the 1800s, had at least some Ulster Scots converted to Catholicism?

Thanks.
 
It just struck me. Would a Catholic Ulster Scot intermarry with the native Irish? It seems like most of the animosity between the Irish and the Ulster Scots was due to Protestant-Catholic conflict. If an Ulster Scot was Catholic, as my ancestor was, would that eliminate the issue?

If not, a Todd marrying a Shannon, followed by that Todd's son marrying a Dempsey, seems very strange.
 
It just struck me. Would a Catholic Ulster Scot intermarry with the native Irish? It seems like most of the animosity between the Irish and the Ulster Scots was due to Protestant-Catholic conflict. If an Ulster Scot was Catholic, as my ancestor was, would that eliminate the issue?

If not, a Todd marrying a Shannon, followed by that Todd's son marrying a Dempsey, seems very strange.

There is no such thing to my knowledge of a Catholic Ulster Scot and if there is they are few and far between and probably a more recent phenomenon. The Catholic people in Ulster would in the main be descendants of the original inhabitants.

The animosity between the Irish and the Ulster Scots is not a religious one. The two communities can be easily seperated and identified by their religion, however it is not the principle reason for their animostiy. That reason is a political one. The Ulster Scots (protestants, although many protestants are not Ulster Scots and would be descended from English settlers and the Ulster Scots would tend to be more of a Prebysterian persuasion) wish for Northern Ireland to remain in the UK, the Irish (Catholic) wish for it to be reunited with the Republic.
 
I'm not referring to the present day situation of Ireland or its Ulster Scottish inhabitants, I'm referring to a man born in 1798, bearing a Scottish surname, that was irrefutably catholic. Upon immigrating to the US, he founded the first catholic church in southern Illinois, where he, and his wife, and his children, and his children's children, and their children, right up until my grandfather left the community, were buried. He clearly had a Scottish/English surname in Todd - he was born and lived in Derry. Unless his family changed their surname when the English arrived, which I briefly considered but no longer believe to be likely, it appears evident to me that he was an Ulster Scot. If he isn't, what would you suggest he is?
 
I'm not referring to the present day situation of Ireland or its Ulster Scottish inhabitants, I'm referring to a man born in 1798, bearing a Scottish surname, that was irrefutably catholic. Upon immigrating to the US, he founded the first catholic church in southern Illinois, where he, and his wife, and his children, and his children's children, and their children, right up until my grandfather left the community, were buried. He clearly had a Scottish/English surname in Todd - he was born and lived in Derry. Unless his family changed their surname when the English arrived, which I briefly considered but no longer believe to be likely, it appears evident to me that he was an Ulster Scot. If he isn't, what would you suggest he is?

It is an interesting and unusal situation. Todd in Ireland is both of English and Scottish extraction and appeared in the 1659 census. There can be many explanations, here are just a few obvious ones:

1) The family were present in Ireland before the major plantations of the 1600's and were Catholic. (Probably the most likely scenario)
2) The family were protestant planters who at some stage converted to Catholicism. This is unlikely as Catholics (and Presbyterians to some extent) in Ireland from the 1660's into the 1800 's were subject to Penal Laws.
3) A Catholic Irish family adopted the name Todd as their surname for unknown reasons.
 
I found the following comment informative.

Thanks for quoting me earlier. I would like to add a little too. The most up-to-date nomenclature for this L161 positive 'Isles' clade is now I2a1b2-Isles, according to Ken Nordtvedt. It is certainly old, but arguably M26 positive forms of I2a got to Britain first.

The small clade has an emerging presence on the north European plain with Germany foremost, which we are finding as the databases gradually increase at glacial rates. All of the 8 subclades have been found on the continent in very small numbers. Nordtvedt, however, is of the view that the oldest subclades [B1, B2] were founded somewhere in northern Germany but that clades C1 and C2 were founded most likely in Ireland with D1 and D2 as offshoots of C.

To reiterate, maybe there is a connection with pre-Gaelic peoples in Ireland for 'Isles' but in England and lowland Scotland it seems far more likely that 'Isles' was carried as a minority alongside I1, R1b etc by Anglo-Saxon invaders.

It is true that the bulk of this clade is found in Ireland but it really should not be regarded as an Irish clade per se, as there is a relatively fair smattering of 'Isles' in England and lowland Scotland for a very small clade.

The I2a clade that seems to centre in Scotland is an intermediate 'Disles' form, which is actually closer to the Balkans-centred 'Dinaric' forms.
 
Thanks for quoting me earlier. I would like to add a little too. The most up-to-date nomenclature for this L161 positive 'Isles' clade is now I2a1b2-Isles, according to Ken Nordtvedt. It is certainly old, but arguably M26 positive forms of I2a got to Britain first.

The small clade has an emerging presence on the north European plain with Germany foremost, which we are finding as the databases gradually increase at glacial rates. All of the 8 subclades have been found on the continent in very small numbers. Nordtvedt, however, is of the view that the oldest subclades [B1, B2] were founded somewhere in northern Germany but that clades C1 and C2 were founded most likely in Ireland with D1 and D2 as offshoots of C.

To reiterate, maybe there is a connection with pre-Gaelic peoples in Ireland for 'Isles' but in England and lowland Scotland it seems far more likely that 'Isles' was carried as a minority alongside I1, R1b etc by Anglo-Saxon invaders.

Yes, although I would argue fairly strongly that an Anglo-Saxon influence for I2a-Isles is limited to the "B" cluster, as, although old, it is the only one that appears outside of the British Isles. The center of diversity of I2a-Isles as a whole is in Britain, barely, with the TMRCA of the whole thing being about 6,000 years old... so it's not entirely clear whether its MRCA lived in Britain, or on the Continent, or in Doggerland.

Either way, I actually think it got there before I2a1a. I2a1a didn't start expanding out of Southwestern Europe until around the same time the MRCA of I2a-Isles lived, and the MRCA of I2a-Isles lived either in or very close to Britain... giving it a large head start. Its later bottleneck is consistent with the fact that Britain remained a hunter-gatherer area until late. So, once the Neolithic reached Britain (and probably I2a1a with it), I2a-Isles, or at least a cluster or two of it (all but B? Just C/D? Some extinct cousins?), was probably already there.

The I2a clade that seems to centre in Scotland is an intermediate 'Disles' form, which is actually closer to the Balkans-centred 'Dinaric' forms.

Disles is more of a mystery. Later, earlier, or peer arrival to Britain with I2a-Isles?
 
Yes, although I would argue fairly strongly that an Anglo-Saxon influence for I2a-Isles is limited to the "B" cluster, as, although old, it is the only one that appears outside of the British Isles. The center of diversity of I2a-Isles as a whole is in Britain, barely, with the TMRCA of the whole thing being about 6,000 years old... so it's not entirely clear whether its MRCA lived in Britain, or on the Continent, or in Doggerland.

Either way, I actually think it got there before I2a1a. I2a1a didn't start expanding out of Southwestern Europe until around the same time the MRCA of I2a-Isles lived, and the MRCA of I2a-Isles lived either in or very close to Britain... giving it a large head start. Its later bottleneck is consistent with the fact that Britain remained a hunter-gatherer area until late. So, once the Neolithic reached Britain (and probably I2a1a with it), I2a-Isles, or at least a cluster or two of it (all but B? Just C/D? Some extinct cousins?), was probably already there.



Disles is more of a mystery. Later, earlier, or peer arrival to Britain with I2a-Isles?

Sparkey,
I know that Jean Manco holds the view that it is the 'B' subclades that can be associated with the Anglo-Saxons but I am not so sure. Nordtvedt has continental examples from A, C and D subclades too, I believe. I seem to remember a German 'Krause' in either D1 or D2, for example. All the 8 subclades have been found in England too. I know of an example of an 'Isles' D2 who tested with Peter Forster at RootsforReal. Forster ran the D2 signature [supposedly so 'Irish'..] through his massive, anonymous Cambridge database and the hotspot came out as Germany. This was using 43 markers rather than a 'bikini' haplotype, by the way. I suspect that there is more out there on the continent than we realise. We need more samples for definate, and the databases fill so slowly.

Nordtvedt definately sees the M26 I2a as hitting the shores before 'Isles'. I believe that 'Disles' is younger than 'Isles' according to his calculations.

In any case, Ydna is only a fraction of our ancestry. Personally, I am far more into autosomal dna these days. I think we sometimes place too much stall in Y haplogroups in terms of identity. For me, it is the overall picture that counts not so much these smaller parts.
 
Sparkey,
I know that Jean Manco holds the view that it is the 'B' subclades that can be associated with the Anglo-Saxons but I am not so sure. Nordtvedt has continental examples from A, C and D subclades too, I believe. I seem to remember a German 'Krause' in either D1 or D2, for example. All the 8 subclades have been found in England too. I know of an example of an 'Isles' D2 who tested with Peter Forster at RootsforReal. Forster ran the D2 signature [supposedly so 'Irish'..] through his massive, anonymous Cambridge database and the hotspot came out as Germany. This was using 43 markers rather than a 'bikini' haplotype, by the way. I suspect that there is more out there on the continent than we realise. We need more samples for definate, and the databases fill so slowly.

Interesting points, I've been going mostly by the I2a Project, and would be interested in seeing how future diversity analyses within these clusters turns out. Right now, though, there's enough diversity of each cluster on the fringes of the British Isles (B being an interesting geographic exception, but still diverse enough) to make it a stiff metric for the continental samples to meet. Backmigrations are always possible, so we need more data.

Nortvedt definately sees the M26 I2a as hitting the shores before 'Isles'. I believe that 'Disles' is younger than 'Isles' according to his calculations.

I find Nordtvedt's conclusion still unconvincing, but I'm open to the possibility. I mean, it seems clear that I2a-Isles was a Northwestern haplogroup by the time it bottlenecked, which basically places it as Northwestern in the Mesolithic, British or not. This gives all kinds of possibilities for carriers of all the requisite SNPs to have been back and forth from Britain before the Neolithic even arrived, or the last single-individual bottleneck of I2a-Isles even occurred. Add to that the very real possibility that the MRCA of I2a-Isles could have been insular, or at least the MRCA of C/D, and I don't think that the Neolithic spread of I2a1a really has a shot. I'd give it about a 5% chance, with I2a-Isles needing to have all its modern clusters later arrivals (I find this less likely than not) and to have its extinct pre-I2a1a-spread clusters completely non-British (I find this much less likely than not).

Of course, if we're talking about the extant populations only (no extinct clusters allowed), the possibility that I2a1a beats it increases, but like I mentioned, I still find that less likely than not.

Disles is younger in terms of TMRCA, yes, but that just says when it expanded out of a single-individual bottleneck, not when it reached its current location. I think the more telling statistic is that the I2a-Isles-A/B split with I2a-Isles-C/D is older than the I2a-Disles split with I2a-Dinaric. That has made me believe that I2a-Disles is newer, but how Disles and Dinaric got so radically separated is hard to tell.
 

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