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Thread: I2a2b-Isles and Ireland

  1. #1
    Regular Member Keegah's Avatar
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    I2a2b-Isles and Ireland

    Hello. My father and I are trying to learn more about our ancestry and genealogy, and have, at last, started to make some discoveries. Via DNA testing we've found that, despite our name being - according to what I've read from several sources on the internet - being of Old English origin, our DNA does not match up with any families sharing our surname in England or Scotland. It does however, match up with several families in Ireland. That, along with the fact that the earliest ancestor we've found was born in Ireland in the early 1700s, seems to suggest an Irish origin. We have found one Gaelic surname that might represent a pre-Anglicization of our current name, but we haven't been able to verify if it is indeed connected to us as of yet.

    So right now, we're focused on trying to discover any other evidence that would give us some leads on our original place of origin. At the moment we're leaning towards Ireland for the reasons described above. Here's the issue. I've recently discovered that I'm I2a2b-Isles D1. From what I've read, the vast majority of the Irish are R1b. Now, obviously I understand that I2a2b-Isles is found almost exclusively in the British Isles, Ireland included. Says so right there in the tag. However, I was and am under the impression that it's centered in Great Britain, particularly Scotland. Furthermore, the Gaelic surname that we have reason to believe was our pre-Anglicization surname, is derived from Western Ireland... as I understand it, the region home to the most "originally" Irish, and as such, almost entirely R1b. Not only that, but if I2a2b-Isles is derived from SE European migrants... why would an I2a2b-Isles family have a Gaelic surname? There're just a lot of questions here on our end.

    I guess my first question(s) would be, as an I2a2b-Isles D1, does there exist a reasonable basis for my family originating in Ireland? If so, how far back would that history likely go? Is there any way of knowing? Would we be able to accurately call ourselves Gaelic?

    Thank you.

  2. #2
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    What's the surname? Well a number of key Irish families particuarly those with connections to the Ulaid (whom the province of Ulster are named after) are I2. These mostly belong to the Dál nAradi who are know in Irish history as having Cruithne descent.

    I2 in an Irish context has probably been on the island alot longer then R1b (especially R1b-L21)

  3. #3
    Regular Member Dorianfinder's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I found the following comment informative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie
    Nordtvedt has dated I2a2b-Isles squarely in the Neolithic. However, there are those such as Tim Owen [see the Ingenta blog, 'Genes of the Cruthin' 2010, by Ian Adamson and Tim Owen] who have argued for a Mesolithic dating and an entry to Britain via Doggerland and possible links to the narrowblade culture.

    Nordtvedt sees I2a2b-Isles as hitting the British shores around 6,000 years ago. There were other 'early I clades' too such as [the earliest] the Iberia-founded M26 I2a1, I2* and I2b1a-English.

    According to Nordtvedt, I2a2b-Isles was founded in northern Germany. Perhaps it got there via LBK bands. From northern Germany, where the snp L161 was 'born', I2a2b-Isles was probably carried to Britain and Ireland via successive waves of people- pre-Celts, Celts and later Anglo-Saxons. Owen has conjectured that the Anglo-Saxons account for at least some of the I2a2b distribution in England and lowland Scotland. Apparently, Bryan Sykes is in agreement. One can envisage I2a2b carried across by Germanics in small quantities alongside I1, I2b1 and R1a1 in the historical period.

    There are currently 8 subclades of I2a2b-Isles- A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, D2. There is a decent [for a small clade] distribution across the north European plain with examples of subclades A, C, and D as well as the oldest B subclade represented on the continent. Germany has most members.

    The bulk of I2a2b-Isles is in Ireland. Here, Tim Owen has conjectured, there may be a link to the Cruthin- allegedly Ireland's earliest post-LGM inhabitants. Owen draws attention to a hotspot for subclades C and D around Rathcroghan in County Roscommon, which was once a Cruthin satellite settlement [see 'Genes of the Cruthin'], the bulk of Cruthin settlement being in Ulster.

    In Ireland, the subclades appear to be concentrated in the western half of the island, in what are argubly 'refuge' areas. The distribution is spread thinly across the population. The suggestion here is of a relic, pre-Gaelic population, subsumed beneath an R1b-majority Gaelic one.

    More research needs to be conducted on I2a2b. It is clearly north-west European and absent in eastern Europe. The branchlines between it and I2a2a separated some 13,000 years ago. Eventually, I hope, the databases will enlarge so that we are able to say more about this fascinating little clade.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Keegah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    What's the surname? Well a number of key Irish families particuarly those with connections to the Ulaid (whom the province of Ulster are named after) are I2. These mostly belong to the Dál nAradi who are know in Irish history as having Cruithne descent.

    I2 in an Irish context has probably been on the island alot longer then R1b (especially R1b-L21)
    O'Toghda, anglicized to Todd. In the Brenach area of Connacht.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Keegah's Avatar
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    Sorry, actually from Bredach.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Keegah's Avatar
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    Small update... Just found that we have a near exact match to a Gibbins family from County Mayor. No way of telling when the divergence occurred though.

  7. #7
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    Hi Keegah
    The Gibbins match has just done 25 markers , you are an exact match at this level which is good but a lot of the markers can change in the next batch of markers .They do not give Ireland as a home country ? . If you can contact him ask him to upgrade to see how close your match holds up.
    You are an odd ball Todd in that you and your cousin are the only two in the Todd project that are I2a Isles, and 1 is Dinaric .
    Most other projects are similar, with a lot of R1b and a scattering of I , with a few I members that have a little variance of markers .
    I cannot find any reference to O'Toghda = Todd .

    A quote from Ken
    13,500 b.p. The two branch lines eventually leading to I2a2a-Dinaric and I2a2b-Isles separate.
    6,000 b.p. Two branch lines eventually leading to I2a2b-Isles-B(&A) and to I2a2b-Isles-C(&D)
    5,600 b.p. TMRCA for 17 Continental members of Clade B
    4.800 b.p. TMRCA for 34 Isles members of Clade B
    3,900 b.p. TMRCA of Clade C
    2,500 b.p. TMRCA of Clade D
    1,500 b.p. TMRCA of clade A
    Going on this date for Isles D of 2500 yrs it is quiet possible that your family , before names were in use ,were in Ireland went to Britian and then over time back to Ireland again .
    Is Gibbons from Mayo in Ireland ?

  8. #8
    Regular Member Keegah's Avatar
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    Thank you for replying. Gibbins with an I was from Mayo in Ireland. I type most of this on my phone as I don't have an internet connection available at my residence. Looks like spellcheck modified it and I didn't pick it up. Anyway. We've only found O'Toghda anglicized to Todd in one
    book. Everywhere else it Tuffy. Evidently I can't post links, but if you Google "Todd O'Toghda", it should be the first result you find. Here's the pertinent information.

    " TODD.* Of Ireland. Arms ; AT. threefoxes' heads grouped gu. a border vert. O'ToGHDA (" togadh :" Irish, chosen, called), anglicised Todd, was chief of Bredach; a territory situated between LoughFoyleinDerry, andLoughSwilly,inDonegal,and which has given its nameto the river " Bredach," which falls into Lough Foyle."

    The main thing is, we keep tracking people back to the area described in that quote. The earliest ancestor we've found so far, for example, was born in Derry.

    Are you involved with the project somehow?

  9. #9
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    The site that came up with Todd=Irish is not your usual site for surnames .
    I found that out of 332 Todds in Ireland in the Griffiths evaluation 1850, 275 were in Ulster . With most of the sites saying that tod was an old English name for a fox and 3 foxes on the family shield , I would say that these todds were of Scottish or English origin that came in to Ireland with the plantation of Ulster .
    Now your haplotype is not typical Todd I2a2 v I1 or R1b .
    So who knows what happened ,did your family take up the Todd name for some other reason , maybe to hold onto land .
    I would definitely follow up the Gibbins enquiry

  10. #10
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    Here's what Woulfe had to say in his 1923 book
    Ó TOGHDHA—I—O Toffey, Towey, Tuffy; 'descendant of Toghdha' (chosen or elected); the name of a family of Ui Fiachrach, who were formerly chiefs of Bredagh, a district in the west of the barony of Tirawley, embracing the parish of Moygawnagh and part of the adjoining parish of Kilfian; still common in Mayo and Roscommon; generally anglicised Towey, but sometimes Tuffy.
    Mac GIOBÚIN—V—M'Gibbone, M'Gibowne, MacGibbon, MacGibben, MacKibbon, O'Kibbon, Gibbonson, Fitz Gibbon, Fitzgibbon, Gibbons, Gibbins, Gibbings, Gibbon; 'son of Gibbon' (a diminutive of Gilbert); the name (1) of a branch of the Burkes of Connacht who were seated to the west of Croagh Patrick, in Co. Mayo; and (2) of a Co. Limerick family, usually said to be a branch of the Geraldines, but really descended from Gilbert de Clare who, at the beginning of the 14th century, possessed the manor of Mahoonagh and many other valuable estates in Co. Limerick. The head of this family was known as the White Knight.
    If you look at the 1901 census online there is 1724 Todd's in it. If you remove all non-catholic ones (say to remove Ulster plantation) you drop to 181 alot of whom are based within Ulster (9 counties). There were overy 228 Towey's in Mayo alone. If you search for Tuffy the biggest concentration is in Mayo followed by Sligo, with only one example outside of these two counties in Galway.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Keegah's Avatar
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    What would you say that implies? I have no bias towards either Scotland or Ireland, or England. It's just that we've only found DNA matches in Ireland. That's what's so damn confusing.

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    If you are getting Irish matches , what are the names bar Gibbins , which is Irish .
    Also how close a match are they .

  13. #13
    Regular Member Keegah's Avatar
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    The matches are all Todds, hence the confusion. We match up with some Todds in Ireland, but literally no Todds from Great Britain. I'd assume we were Scottish if we matched up with the much more numerous Todds in Scotland and Northern England. But we don't. And I have no idea why. It's very frustrating.

    However, we very recently found some more sensible relations to a Boyd family and a Bruce family, both from Scotland. However, they're not as close of a match as the Gibbins. On a 37 marker test, they're three off from a perfect match. Gibbins is one off.

    Also. We joined an Ulster database project on FTDNA. We had zero matches. Same for a Scotland database.

    I'm really at a loss here. I'd assumed we were Scottish at the start, then after only finding Irish matches I started to suspect we were Irishmen that changed our surnames, but now we have a relation to two very Scottish surnames. Despite us not having any matches with those of our own surname outside of Ireland.

    If you have any advice as to where to go from here, I would greatly appreciate it.

  14. #14
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    Isles is a minority clad in Ireland and Britan .Less than 1000 people have been tested so far and multiple ones are the same family.Over 500 000 have been tested so far.
    Your markers are Isles D1 and some of the names are Tomalty ,Mc Laurin,Furman,Nolan,McAbee,Hood,McDonald,Johnson,B oyd,Bruce,Long,Norton,Jolley,Stuart,Roberts,Sch
    aller,Larocque,
    Most of the names seem to be from Scotland.
    I would see how close you are to the Gibbins man at 67 markers. If you are above 61/2 markers , that would be a close match

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    I2a2b-Disles has been changed to I2a1b1-Disles.

    This is my haplotype also. My understanding is that it is only found in Scotland and North East Ireland, and the colonies, of course. Last I heard there were only 80ish people known to have it, if I remember correctly, but that may have changed. My surname is now most commonly found in England but it has Gaelic origins and was a term used to refer to the Danish viking invaders and settlers so I assume that is where it came from. Who knows though, maybe it was there prior to them and my ancestors were adopted into the clan or something.

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    You are wright .
    At this stage with the changing names , for simplicity I use I2a2 ,Isles ,Disles and Dinaric . When we use just these names most people know what we are talking about
    Are you the typical 17,10,15,15 at dys 19,391,385ab .
    There are some names like Wainright,Woods,McLean,Morrow,Henry,McCarrick,Davi s,McRae,Gibson,Heron,Haran,Conway,McGuire,Pruden,
    Brennan,Downie,Pearce,Gribben,Moon,
    There are more but not enough markers to be positive
    I will assume your name is there ,If not PM me please

    If you have any matches that are not there let me know

  17. #17
    Great Adventurer sparkey's Avatar
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    I2a-Isles has a center of diversity that spans both Britain and Ireland, seeing that all of its main STR clusters are present in both places, so we can't place its MRCA location very precisely, but we can be fairly sure that he was insular. The TMRCA of I2a-Isles makes it perhaps the best candidate for the status as the dominant haplogroup of the Grooved Ware peoples. That means that, as a clade, it spans the different ethnicities of the British Isles, and determining which particular ethnicity your I2a-Isles line passed through will need to utilize STR comparisons (as you're already doing, good job).

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    My name is not on that list but close to one. You may not want to include me though because I do not know my markers. I tested only with 23andMe and sent my data to Ken Nordtvedt. He said it was most likely that since my ancestry is British Isles and the only other option was Dinaric, so it is assumed at this point I suppose. I wish I still had the email from him so I could remember exactly what he said. I know I asked him if I should test with another company and he told me it would serve no purpose. Is he on this board?

    I went back and checked the emails and that is basically what he said.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Keegah's Avatar
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    This seems kind of obvious to me, but just to be sure... I have a few questions.

    Did Ulster Scots interbreed with the native Irish, and did Ulster Scots immigrate to America along with the native Irish? And, once there, did they remain with and around the Irish in their immigrant communities?

    As always, thank you.

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    Isn't that who the Scots-Irish are? They came from Ulster, right?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I2a-Isles has a center of diversity that spans both Britain and Ireland, seeing that all of its main STR clusters are present in both places, so we can't place its MRCA location very precisely, but we can be fairly sure that he was insular. The TMRCA of I2a-Isles makes it perhaps the best candidate for the status as the dominant haplogroup of the Grooved Ware peoples. That means that, as a clade, it spans the different ethnicities of the British Isles, and determining which particular ethnicity your I2a-Isles line passed through will need to utilize STR comparisons (as you're already doing, good job).
    It would actually be very interesting if I2a2b in Ireland is really derived from the Grooved Ware Culture. I mean, if this is the case then it's clearly pre-Indo-European, and would as such obviously predate the emergence of all historically known ethnicities of the British Isles.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Keegah's Avatar
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    Pardon my ignorance, but are the Grooved Ware people and the Cruthins one in the same? Both searches yield results claiming that they're the original inhabitants of the British Isles.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keegah View Post
    Pardon my ignorance, but are the Grooved Ware people and the Cruthins one in the same? Both searches yield results claiming that they're the original inhabitants of the British Isles.
    Well, I'm inclined to disagree. In my opinion, the Cruthin (that's the modern Irish name, the original name would have been something like "Kʷritani") were the first Celtic inhabitants of Britain, and in turn, the name "Britain" (Welsh "Prydain") derives from them.

    As far as I understand it, the term "Cruthin" was more or less the Irish exonym for the same people whom the Romans called "Picts". From what little is known about the Pictish language however (which appears to have been similar to Brythonic and Gaulish), these were a Celtic people.

    I mean, it's unclear when exactly the first Celtic or otherwise Indo-European people arrived on the British Isles, wether it was during the Copper Age or during the Bronze Age, but it's clear that the Grooved Ware Culture came to an end with the arrival of the Beaker-Bell Culture.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Eireannach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keegah View Post
    This seems kind of obvious to me, but just to be sure... I have a few questions.

    Did Ulster Scots interbreed with the native Irish, and did Ulster Scots immigrate to America along with the native Irish? And, once there, did they remain with and around the Irish in their immigrant communities?

    As always, thank you.
    The Ulster Scots largely did not interbreed with the native Irish (and to this day remain a separate identifiable community). They also in the main did not emigrate to America at the same time as the native Irish. Most Ulster Scot migration to America occured in the 1700's and early 1800's. Native Irish emigration occured during this time but not to the same extent until the mid 1800's when it sky rocketed as a result of the Potato Famine.

    They also did not really associate with each other in America

  25. #25
    Regular Member Eireannach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    Isn't that who the Scots-Irish are? They came from Ulster, right?
    Yes they came from Ulster, however their origins are in Scotland.

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