Where can North Africans pass in Europe?

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Poll results hit you in the eye.

Let's put it this way, IGNORANCE hits people in many places. What's your point? You have more than telegraphed your motivations.:useless:

No, N. Africans do not "overlap" with any Europeans.

 

[Wilhelm]

Of course to anyone who lives in Spain this question is clearer than water. BUT ...there are people with strange agendas who want to twist facts.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Yes, it's called inveterate mendacity fueled by hatred and insecurity. Quite pathetic.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Well, according to your definition Penelope Cruz and Cristiano Ronaldo are native to Portugal. Their genome, as you put it, "...dominantly reflects the (genetic) substratum of his region ..." Even if Ronaldo great grandma was (possibly) black, he is dominantly 87.5% autosomaly Portuguese, therefore native. Isn't 87.5% dominant enough for you? What's your percentage?
Penelope is at least 75% Portuguese, 25% Gypsy. Oh wait, Gypsy live in Portugal for 600 years. How come they are not included in Portugal autosomal substratum? 600 years is not long enough? Where is your cut off for native, one thousand years?

See, whatever definition for "native" you will find, it will look only good on paper, but it will become vague and imprecise when thrown against complexity of today's societies.

PS. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have this conversation if Penelope and Cristiano were blond, right?

First of all, Penelope Cruz is not Portuguese, she's a Spanish citizen. Second, I realize that you tend to dismiss genetics as principal to what signifies who is indigenous to where. Most people do not see things your way, sorry.

The bottom line is that C. Ronaldo had, according to what I have read about his family background, a great grandmother who was part Black-African. That means he has VERY RECENT extra-European admixture which obviously does not pertain to the Portuguese / Iberian genome.

Gypsies are foreign to Spain and Portugal and originally hailed from India so how are they native to Iberia? What is native to the two countries is Paleolithic, Proto-Celtic, Celtic, with a modest percentage of Germanic and Near-Eastern.

Of course, true to form, you had to include a rather puerile remark to the effect that the thinking would be different if Ronaldo and Cruz were blond. Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Can someone close this useless thread. What's next, which ethnicities overlap with polar bears?

 

[sparkey]

Can someone close this useless thread. What's next, which ethnicities overlap with polar bears?

I'd say:
1) Norwegians
2) Icelanders
3) Swedes
4) Danes

Geographically it makes sense.

 

[sparkey]

But seriously, even if North Africans don't overlap with any European group, asking who they are least distant from is still a legitimate question.

Personally I think it's pretty much unanswerable, because there is too much variation in North Africa and not enough overlap anywhere in Europe, including Iberia, Sardinia, and other places that are geographically near. I haven't really kept up with this thread, but am I hitting on some of the Iberian users' frustrations?

 

[LeBrok]

First of all, Penelope Cruz is not Portuguese, she's a Spanish citizen. Second, I realize that you tend to dismiss genetics as principal to what signifies who is indigenous to where. Most people do not see things your way, sorry.

Oh, I didn't know that you knew most people, and talked to them about your interpretation of indigenous definition?! Most people, lol, you have problem convincing most on Eupedia that what you're saying is true, and have nothing more than pure scientific agenda. The question is why you still bother. 2368 posts mostly dedicated to "unbrowning" Iberia, and not even one sole convinced that you are right, no reputation gained, tens of people offended. Well, congratulations.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Oh, I didn't know that you knew most people, and talked to them about your interpretation of indigenous definition?! Most people, lol, you have problem convincing most on Eupedia that what you're saying is true, and have nothing more than pure scientific agenda. The question is why you still bother. 2368 posts mostly dedicated to "unbrowning" Iberia, and not even one sole convinced that you are right, no reputation gained, tens of people offended. Well, congratulations.

I don't value your opinion or that of anyone else who thinks the way you do. Your criticisms are vacuous and self-serving. I will no longer respond to anything you post since it's a total waste of time to do so.

 

[Atilla]

2368 posts mostly dedicated to "unbrowning" Iberia, and not even one sole convinced that you are right

A man comes to believe in the end the lies he tells about himself to himself

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

A man comes to believe in the end the lies he tells about himself to himself

LOL! So says the intellectually confused wanderer. Not worth the time...

 

[Atilla]

LOL! So says the intellectually confused wanderer. Not worth the time...

A lie has always a certain amount of weight with those who wish to believe it.

 

[Knovas]

With all respects to all ethnic groups, but a person who is half or a quarter part Gipsy/black African according to the individuals mentioned, is not the best example to be considered native to Europe. Almost all Europeans have different levels of admixture, the thing is not to say you must be "pure" to be a native. I think we all know the difference between the typical admixture, and what the other cases imply.

Both Cristiano and Penelope aren't phenotypically representative of Iberia or wherever Southern European area you can think about. In my opinion Penelope fits better as a mixed Euro with South American, while Cristiano...well, the guy is too mixed, for sure he doesn't look Portuguese. Quite absurd to be discussing things like this.

A lie has always a certain amount of weight with those who wish to believe it.

Funny parrot. To be reasonable, you can go and repeat the same words in front of the mirror.

 

[Knovas]

But seriously, even if North Africans don't overlap with any European group, asking who they are least distant from is still a legitimate question.

Personally I think it's pretty much unanswerable, because there is too much variation in North Africa and not enough overlap anywhere in Europe, including Iberia, Sardinia, and other places that are geographically near. I haven't really kept up with this thread, but am I hitting on some of the Iberian users' frustrations?

I personally don't have any problem with a question like this, and I gave my opinion and explained why I didn't vote. The problem with threads like this, is that are dishonestly used by individuals who haven't got an opinion, rather a lot of time to waste and have some fun with strange agendas.

I don't know what do you refer when talk about frustrations. I can say what it's really frustrating, is coming with the intention to have serious discussions, and again and again going with the same, usually by known individuals or others who mask their identity. Trust me, there's no other frustration but this.

For the rest, totally agree with you.

 

[Rinconete]

Wouldn't Muslims of native Iberian origin have been expelled too during the Reconquista, bringing Iberian ancestry into North Africa to some extent as well?

That's right. Not all the Moors that were expelled were Arab or Berber origin. Among them were mixed. Some of them had Iberian blood or were completely Iberian or Slavics.

 

[lebowsky]

A lie has always a certain amount of weight with those who wish to believe it.

That's true. Many words are spoken when there's nothing to say.

 

[Drac II]

That's right. Not all the Moors that were expelled were Arab or Berber origin. Among them were mixed. Some of them had Iberian blood or were completely Iberian or Slavics.

Not "some" but in fact most of them were Iberian converts to Islam, who had always made up most of the Muslim population in the Peninsula.

 

[oreo_cookie]

Not "some" but in fact most of them were Iberian converts to Islam, who had always made up most of the Muslim population in the Peninsula.

So their expulsion DID bring Iberian ancestry into North Africa.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

So their expulsion DID bring Iberian ancestry into North Africa.

It's generally accepted.

 

[oreo_cookie]

Anyone else want to vote on this poll?