Where can North Africans pass in Europe?

[Knovas]

Yes. Of course you can find non Berber North Africans with European look. But in average I don't see nothing significant to consider they fit.

 

[oreo_cookie]

More pictures. These are Algerian and Tunisian.

Algerians;

Tunisians;

 

[oreo_cookie]

Egyptian Copts;

As far as Copts go, some of them have Ethiopian-like qualities.

 

[Wilhelm]

Oreo Cookie, what do you pretend with all these pictures ? They don't look european AT ALL.
Obviously I didn't vote any option, as they don't fit anywhere in Europe.

 

[oreo_cookie]

Oreo Cookie, what do you pretend with all these pictures ? They don't look european AT ALL.
Obviously I didn't vote any option, as they don't fit anywhere in Europe.

Not as groups but I think as individuals they probably could. Keep in mind, the concept of "passing" isn't the same as "looking identical to". Some would have you believe that phenotypes change the second you cross the Mediterranean but it's a gradual, not instant process. Same with Greece and Turkey in my opinion. You don't have German lookalikes on one side and Saudi lookalikes on the other.

 

[Wilhelm]

Not as groups but I think as individuals they probably could. Keep in mind, the concept of "passing" isn't the same as "looking identical to". Some would have you believe that phenotypes change the second you cross the Mediterranean but it's a gradual, not instant process. Same with Greece and Turkey in my opinion. You don't have German lookalikes on one side and Saudi lookalikes on the other.

Oh, come on, we have plenty of north-africans here and they don't pass. It's not gradual, it's a complete cut-off. Once you are to the other side of the strait you have a different race, with different genetics.

 

[oreo_cookie]

Oh, come on, we have plenty of north-africans here and they don't pass. It's not gradual, it's a complete cut-off. Once you are to the other side of the strait you have a different race, with different genetics.

Unless they are significantly Sub-Saharan mixed (like some Moroccans are), they are still Caucasoid.

 

[Wilhelm]

Unless they are significantly Sub-Saharan mixed (like some Moroccans are), they are still Caucasoid.

Northern-Moroccans (what you have to the other side) are on average 8% sub-saharan and 7% East-African and they cluster with other north-Africans, very far away from any european. So, you see there is abosultely no gradual process at all.

 

[oreo_cookie]

Northern-Moroccans (what you have to the other side) are on average 8% sub-saharan and 7% East-African and they cluster with other north-Africans, very far away from any european. So, you see there is abosultely no gradual process at all.

But they still have European-like components to their DNA. The thing that pulls them further away from Europe is the black African (15% like you said) and the North African.

 

[Knovas]

Well, pure ethnic Berbers (for example Kabyle) should be near 100% Northwest African. They don't cluster with Europeans, but quite of them can really pass. What it's true is that between the main population from North Africa, people with European looking is less significant in number.

 

[oreo_cookie]

It should be worth noting that most of the European-looking people in North Africa, and the vast majority of the people posted in this thread, are from the Mediterranean coast.

Knovas, did you vote on the poll? If not that's fine.

 

[Knovas]

No I'd prefer not. If one day there's a similar thread about ethnic Berbers, I'll do it since it is more clear.

 

[oreo_cookie]

Which would you have said, had that been the case?

I think most North Africans are predominantly Berber anyhow, just with ~10/15% Sub-Saharan and another 10% SW Asian. No?

 

[Wilhelm]

But they still have European-like components to their DNA. The thing that pulls them further away from Europe is the black African (15% like you said) and the North African.

Even if they are pure berber they are still north-african. There are Mozabites in the sample who are 100% pure berber (as seen by the Dodecad portraits) and they cluster with the rest of North-Africans (moroccans and other Mozabite).

 

[oreo_cookie]

Even if they are pure berber they are still north-african. There are Mozabites in the sample who are 100% pure berber (as seen by the Dodecad portraits) and they cluster with the rest of North-Africans (moroccans and other Mozabite).

Yes this is true, so my point is most North Africans are more or less Berber anyhow, just Arab in culture for some of them, while others have noticeable Sub-Saharan influence.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Yes this is true, so my point is most North Africans are more or less Berber anyhow, just Arab in culture for some of them, while others have noticeable Sub-Saharan influence.

The only "pure" Berbers are the Kabyel, Rifs, Ahmazigs (sp?) and a few tribes in Libya and Tunisia. They make up about 15% of Northern Africans. These groups are closest to the original Berbers who migrated west form the Upper Middle East and the Caspian region during the Mesolithic and Neolithic. All others who claim Berber identity are pretty well mixed and only culturally Berber.

 

[oreo_cookie]

The only "pure" Berbers are the Kabyel, Rifs, Ahmazigs (sp?) and a few tribes in Libya and Tunisia. They make up about 15% of Northern Africans. These groups are closest to the original Berbers who migrated west form the upper Middle East and the Caspian region during the Mesolithic and Neolithic. All others who claim Berber identity are pretty well mixed and only culturally Berber.

But Arab ancestry in North Africans is minimal except for Egypt and Libya.. so what is the rest of the ancestry of Northwest Africans if it is not authentic Berber?

 

[Mzungu mchagga]

In general where can North Africans pass as native Europeans?

In Paris, Lyon, Marseille, Strasbourg, Nice, Barcelona, Madrid, Sevilla, Valencia, Lisboa, Rome, Naples, Milano, Torino, Palermo, Genova, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Den Haag, Brussels, Antwerpen, London, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield, Glasgow, Stockholm, Göteborg, Malmö, Kopenhagen, Frankfurt, Cologne, Hamburg, Berlin.

 

[Antigone]

Only in Western Europe then MM? :grin:

 

[oreo_cookie]

Anyone else?