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Thread: Dodecad euro7

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Ethiopians have more Southwest admixture.

    But how is it possible that Ethiopians (as East African folks) have more Southwest than Caucasian admixture?

    I trully believe that Northwest African is incorporated into Southwest! For ME this is evidence!
    Note that this is a Euro-Calculator, is designed to work only for Europeans, that's what Dienekes says on the entry blog.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Not really. Southwestern is finally the breakdown of the previous Mediterranean component in it's West side, that is, Iberians-North-Italians-Sardinians.
    Do you think that Ligurians may have the same origins as iberians?
    This would explain the fact that northern italians cluster closer with iberians, due to Ligurian and gaulish admixture versus iberians and celtiberians adimxture.

    From wikipedia
    Ligurian origins

    In the 19th century, the Ligures' question got the attentions of not a few scholars. Amédée Thierry, a French historian, linked them to the Iberians,[6] while Karl Müllenhoff, professor of Germanic antiquities at the Universities of Kiel and Berlin, studying the sources of the Ora maritima by Avienus (a Latin poet who lived in the 4th century AD, but who used as source for his own work a Phoenician Periplum of the 6th century BC),[7] held that the name Ligurians generically referred to various peoples who lived in Western Europe, including the Celts, but thought the real Ligurians were a Pre-Indo-European population.[8]
    Dominique-François-Louis Roget, Baron de Belloguet, claimed a "Gallic" origin.[9]
    In favor of a Pre-Indo-European origin thesis were Henri d'Arbois de Jubainville, 19th-century French historian, who argued that the Ligurians, together with the Iberians, constituted the remains of the native population that had spread in Western Europe with the Cardium Pottery culture cardial ceramic,[10] and Arturo Issel, a Genoese geologist and paleontologist, who considered them direct descendants of the Cro-Magnon men that lived throughout Gaul from the Mesolithic.[11]

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    Btw, it's incredible that Ethiopians have for about 50% of Eurasian (non-African) admixture!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Note that this is a Euro-Calculator, is designed to work only for Europeans, that's what Dienekes says on the entry blog.
    Not only for Europeans but for all West Eurasians (Europe, Anatolia and Caucasus), but he says nothing about (North) Africa. And you asked for African samples.

    These are his words:

    "in principle, the calculator could be used by non-Europeans/Anatolians/Caucasians, although I would be less confident of their results."

    http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/09/...medium=twitter

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    Do you think that Ligurians may have the same origins as iberians?
    This would explain the fact that northern italians cluster closer with iberians, due to Ligurian and gaulish admixture versus iberians and celtiberians adimxture.

    From wikipedia
    Ligurian origins

    In the 19th century, the Ligures' question got the attentions of not a few scholars. Amédée Thierry, a French historian, linked them to the Iberians,[6] while Karl Müllenhoff, professor of Germanic antiquities at the Universities of Kiel and Berlin, studying the sources of the Ora maritima by Avienus (a Latin poet who lived in the 4th century AD, but who used as source for his own work a Phoenician Periplum of the 6th century BC),[7] held that the name Ligurians generically referred to various peoples who lived in Western Europe, including the Celts, but thought the real Ligurians were a Pre-Indo-European population.[8]
    Dominique-François-Louis Roget, Baron de Belloguet, claimed a "Gallic" origin.[9]
    In favor of a Pre-Indo-European origin thesis were Henri d'Arbois de Jubainville, 19th-century French historian, who argued that the Ligurians, together with the Iberians, constituted the remains of the native population that had spread in Western Europe with the Cardium Pottery culture cardial ceramic,[10] and Arturo Issel, a Genoese geologist and paleontologist, who considered them direct descendants of the Cro-Magnon men that lived throughout Gaul from the Mesolithic.[11]
    Are you referring to the original Iberians who occupied the south-east and central-east rim of Spain? The idea of the Ligurians and (original) Iberians being related is an intriguing one. The remainder of Spain and Portugal (2/3) was Celtic, Celtiberian and Lusitanian (Proto-Celtic / Para-Celtic). At a point in time you also had the Tartessians who seem to have been Celtic influenced, although the Atlantic School suggests they actually spoke a Celtic language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    Do you think that Ligurians may have the same origins as iberians?
    This would explain the fact that northern italians cluster closer with iberians, due to Ligurian and gaulish admixture versus iberians and celtiberians adimxture.

    From wikipedia
    Ligurian origins

    In the 19th century, the Ligures' question got the attentions of not a few scholars. Amédée Thierry, a French historian, linked them to the Iberians,[6] while Karl Müllenhoff, professor of Germanic antiquities at the Universities of Kiel and Berlin, studying the sources of the Ora maritima by Avienus (a Latin poet who lived in the 4th century AD, but who used as source for his own work a Phoenician Periplum of the 6th century BC),[7] held that the name Ligurians generically referred to various peoples who lived in Western Europe, including the Celts, but thought the real Ligurians were a Pre-Indo-European population.[8]
    Dominique-François-Louis Roget, Baron de Belloguet, claimed a "Gallic" origin.[9]
    In favor of a Pre-Indo-European origin thesis were Henri d'Arbois de Jubainville, 19th-century French historian, who argued that the Ligurians, together with the Iberians, constituted the remains of the native population that had spread in Western Europe with the Cardium Pottery culture cardial ceramic,[10] and Arturo Issel, a Genoese geologist and paleontologist, who considered them direct descendants of the Cro-Magnon men that lived throughout Gaul from the Mesolithic.[11]

    I agree 100% with you
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambrius (The Red) View Post
    Are you referring to the original Iberians who occupied the south-east and central-east rim of Spain? The idea of the Ligurians and (original) Iberians being related is an intriguing one. The remainder of Spain and Portugal (2/3) was Celtic, Celtiberian and Lusitanian (Proto-Celtic / Para-Celtic). At a point in time you also had the Tartessians who seem to have been Celtic influenced, although the Atlantic School suggests they actually spoke a Celtic language.
    ?
    original Iberians as far as I read was only catalan area from france to Barcelona roughly

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Btw, it's incredible that Ethiopians have for about 50% of Eurasian (non-African) admixture!
    Incredible it is that it die of famine not the fact that have 50 % of Eurasia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    ?
    original Iberians as far as I read was only catalan area from france to Barcelona roughly
    Wrong. Iberians where as far as East Andalusia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Btw, it's incredible that Ethiopians have for about 50% of Eurasian (non-African) admixture!
    It makes sense that they would, not only because of Ethiopias geographical situation but because it is at the cross roads of a major and ancient east/west trading route.

    There is a map here
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tr...stC_CE_gr2.png .

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    It's good to remark the word ancient. All seems to indicate that Southwestern is the oldest one, wich means it had more time to move and spread. More or less the same could be said of the Southeastern, but I think this one is more artifical and gives a false impresion (a very intermediate one). It combines many influences, and the meaning is very different depending on the population or person. I think it must be refined if it's possible, probably in a K=12 analysis including this clusters this will be clarified as I said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    It's good to remark the word ancient. All seems to indicate that Southwestern is the oldest one, wich means it had more time to move and spread. More or less the same could be said of the Southeastern, but I think this one is more artifical and gives a false impresion (a very intermediate one). It combines many influences, and the meaning is very different depending on the population or person. I think it must be refined if it's possible, probably in a K=12 analysis including this clusters this will be clarified as I said.
    I agree that this is important to talk about, because it confuses people a lot. I'm not sure I'd call any of them the "oldest one" because they all probably have components which arrived in their modern geographic distribution at different times. Southwestern is actually a good example, if we think of it as corresponding to peoples who have Y-DNA I2a1a and certain R1b subclades, then already we see that it has influences from different migration periods.

    "Does Southwestern have the most Paleolithic European influence?" is a worthwhile question to explore. I think the answer right now is somewhere between "maybe..." and "probably..." I would like to see it refined as well.

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    The Fst distances on this component, the tree, and the distribution, makes me think it's the most likely one to have very significant Paleolithic element. What exactly reprresents as I said, but it's just my opinion, is the allele frequencies of the humans who remained in Iberia after the last glacial age. Isolation originated around the Pyrenees, wich has probably the highest presence between ethnic Catalans (if my results don't lie or aren't just exclusive, of course).

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    It's official I'm Northeastern. I've finally found an hour to read the instructions and run all the programs and files to make it work. Almost quit in the middle of it. We need Steve Jobs to make these programs, lol.

    49.67% Northeastern
    24.67% Northwestern
    11.26% Southwestern
    8.49% Southeastern
    4.39% Caucasus
    1.53% Far_Asian
    0.00% African

    Actually I was expecting to be more Southeastern, because I'm a brunet.

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    You also don't fit in any average Lebrok, but I assume you are mixed Euro ancestry. You look mostly like a Finnish and Hungarian mix jaja

    Your Southeastern is slightly higher for what I see in the different Northern European averages. It's really incredible that most Northern Euros get more Southeastern than me, or if they get a bit less, it's because they have some Caucasus added. Too bad there aren't many Catalans, I feel quite alone now xd

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    Here I have the data for two anonimous Algerians, wich clarify several things:

    Algerian 1
    9.86% Caucasus
    16.75% Northwestern
    0.21% Northeastern
    29.89% Southeastern
    15.48% African
    2.72% Far_Asian
    25.09% Southwestern

    Algerian 2
    13.13% Caucasus
    16.50% Northwestern
    2.93% Northeastern
    30.15% Southeastern
    11.19% African
    4.08% Far_Asian
    22.01% Southwestern

    Results could be a bit noisy in this case for the lack of African clusters, but it's significant the amount of African they get considering the actual cluster includes mostly East African and Sub-Saharan (or simply reads substantial amounts of different African ancestries). Southwestern, as expected, is quite high, just slightly lower than French, but Southeastern is even higher. Nothing surprising, since the last cluster includes many different influences. For a predominatly Caucasoid population makes sense, although there are obviously things to fix for North Africans. The analysis were designed mainly for Europeans, and it's important to keep this in mind.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    You are assuming SE European means Arabian from the Arabian peninsula. I am sure the Greeks, the Bulgarians and other SE Europeans would be pleased to have you locate them to Mecca. SE European also includes most of the Italians.

    I have always considered that the Arabians are a recent people, a post Neolithic people who lived on the edges of the Sumerian civilization. The Caucasus probably contributed more to Arabians and Europeans than vice versa considering most of the domestic species used by Neolithic farmers actually came from the northern edge of the Middle East or the southern parts of the Caucasus. Even the vine comes from the Caucasus. Where would the Spanish, French, Italians and Greeks be without their vines?

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Isn't the Far Asian too high for North Africans? Sure you copied the results properly?

    By the way, it probably is not good form to publish the results of people you don't know or who haven't given you permission. Think about it. Some twerp referred to my STR results and kit number on dna forums. The results were in my surname project to which he did not belong. I was not pleased and complained to him via 23andMe. One reason I won't publish my results here.

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    I listed the results anonimous, I don't see the problem. I did it because some people was curious about what North Africans could get, so in my opinion was useful to post. I could post a lot more results but I didn't, it was just to have a North African reference (note there aren't listed in the spreadsheet).

    And yes, the results are copied properly. Not sure the Far Asian what kind of alleles is detecting...could be perfectly noise. The Southeastern as I said includes European and other influences. Quite of the Southwest Asian has been included in it, but it doesn't mean that if you get some Southeastern you must put it at the same level. It depends on the person or population we are looking. In other words, it could mean East Med or Middle Eastern, so we'll have to wait if one day Dienekes' makes the division.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    This caluculator has an evident problem with the Caucasus component and the Southeastern. Southeastern is mostly European, but includes some other influences, and I think sometimes admixture confuses the data with the West Asian. Quite difficult to determine exactly what they mean, we just can infer it aproximately knowing wich country or person is under the analysis.

    By the way, here are mine:

    59.70% Southwestern
    32.65% Northwestern
    4.91% Southeastern
    2.67% Northeastern
    0.05% Caucasus
    0.01% Far Asian
    0.00% African

    I am mostly Catalan, and it seems is what I inherited in great part. My results are fairly different from the Spanish average, possibly I am the only one in the project getting such reports. The non European, as usual, is very low or plain noise, depending how you interpret the Southeastern, but I was 0% West Asian and Southwest Asian.

    The African has been a bit underestimated in my case, while the Far Asian is noise (more or less the same as Caucasus). Incredibly low and insignificant.

    PD: The results for Sardinians make sense, it was obvoius they must have substantial Southeastern. I expected Basques less Southeastern, more or less like me. Interesting.
    Thank-you for sharing Knovas. The African in the euro7 calculator is the total of Palaeo-African, Neo African and East African. The unique characteristic of euro7 is that Northwest African has been added to Southwestern. Does this make sense to you or is there another possible explanation? I have come across the same thing a number of times now, NW African disappears in euro7 every time, I believe it gets merged with the Southwestern admixture component.

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    I did not see your reply here Dorian.

    Well, we have discussed this in the other thread without a total agreement. I think the fact North Africans seem to have more Southeastern than Southwestern indicates what I said about the ambiguousness of the first one, including many different influences which could perfectly include Northwest African as a whole of Med/South Euro, Near Eastern and small Sub-Saharan. It would clarify more if we could see the results of ethnic Berber individuals scoring near 100% Northwest African component in the v3 run, but at the moment this is not possible.

    According to the distances the Southwestern seems to be very well defined, and it peaks in Northeast Iberia where the African admixture is less present (in both haplogroup frequencies and admixture averages). So my point now that I have done many analysis on myself, is that the Southeastern masked this Nortwest African, but if you want an intermediate point I propose the following:

    According to the v3 run I was 2.2% North+East African. I must say this is the maximum score I ever get in such clusters (and it's still very low), so the real number must be something between 0-2%. Anyways, if we assume it's correct, taking the v3 run as reference we can say both Southwestern and Southeastern should reduce in my case 1.1% to take out this African scores with strong Caucasoid element. And the same could be applied to other Iberians in consonance with their personal scores.

    I'm willing to see this in a K=12 style to see a "real" Southeastern cluster, since it's obvious (I think you agree here) that it's the worst defined of all. The figure for Armenians it's enough evidence to note there's something rare.

    With all said, ¿do you like the intermediate solution? Regards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    According to the v3 run I was 2.2% North+East African
    Your proposal depends on your other admixture percentages in the v3 run. Could you pm your results for the v3 run so I can see the values for Northwest African, East African, Neo African and Palaeo-African. If my observations are correct then you should have 0% Palaeo-African with a little Neo-African if your 2.2% is related to your Northwest African admixture that comes from West Africa. On the other hand, if you have 0% Neo-African and a little Palaeo-African admixture then you may have a significant Southeastern admixture that is pretty out of the ordinary in Iberian individuals.

    My v3 results are 0% Neo-African, 0.28% East African, 0.90% Northwest African and 1.19% Palaeo-African. This makes sense as the Eastern Mediterranean and Northeast African populations show Palaeo rather than Neo African trace amounts. As I explained in the other thread, I believe this is due to a different source for the introduction of African admixture in Southeastern Mediterranean and Middle-Eastern countries compared to Northwest Africa.

    My Northwest African score converges with my Mediterranean component rather than Neo-African, which I'm guessing is not the case in Iberians. If anything I anticipate Iberian individuals to have a Northwest African admixture that lacks the Palaeo-African elements?
    Last edited by Dorianfinder; 28-11-11 at 10:18.

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    I told you North + East African, because I have 0% in both Neo African and Palaeo African. The exact percent is 1.6% Northwest African and 0.6% East African for me, which is total 2.2%. My K=10 for you to have another reference, showed only 0.3% East African.

    I compared My Euro7 results with a lot of people, and there's nobody showing such low Southeastern without having any Caucasian like I do. I haven't tested my mother who is absolutely 100% Catalan from a single town, but I bet she would show even lower Southeastern, being the rest more or less the same. Your hipothesis that I sholud really have more Southeastern doesn't work for me, since many analysis tell the contrary: EuroDNACalc, Eurogenes runs showing me as 100% Western European, and the Intra Southern European K=3 with a Southeastern/Anatolian cluster, saying 0% for me. This analysis were erased though, but I saved all my personal results.

    In my opinion is not surprising I usually show 0% in Sub-Saharan clusters with figures like this, only a few times I got 0.1% in the Eurogenes Project and the last Eurasia7 said 0.4%. Well, It's still very low, at a reasonable level of ressolution I come out 0%.

    And the Iberian averages it's true that show more Neo African than Palaeo African as you pointed, but we are talking about percents less than 1% putting them together. I know the Iberian results, and there's no one showing more than 0.2-0.3% Palaeo African, so you are right in considering the component lacks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    I told you North + East African, because I have 0% in both Neo African and Palaeo African. The exact percent is 1.6% Northwest African and 0.6% East African for me, which is total 2.2%. My K=10 for you to have another reference, showed only 0.3% East African.

    v3 Admixture Components:
    East_European
    West_European
    Mediterranean
    0% Neo_African
    Very low West_Asian
    South_Asian
    Northeast_Asian
    Southeast_Asian
    0.6% East_African
    Southwest_Asian
    1.6% Northwest_African
    0% Palaeo_African


    Alright, so you say that your results show no Neo-African and no Palaeo-African.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    there's nobody showing such low Southeastern without having any Caucasian like I do
    You say you have very low Southeastern without any Caucasian? This sounds normal as Southeastern usually converges with Caucasian/Anatolia. This suggests that you have no Palaeo-African which is correct.

    How do you understand your 2.2% African v3 result?

    Using methods that can infer admixture proportions in the absence of accurate ancestral populations, we estimated that the proportion of sub-Saharan African ancestry in Spain is 2.4 +/- 0.3%, in Tuscany 1.5 +/- 0.3%, and in Greece 1.9 +/- 0.7% (1 standard error). We also studied the decay of admixture linkage disequilibrium with genetic distance, which provided a preliminary estimate of the date of African gene flow into Spain of roughly 60 generations ago, or about 1,700 years ago assuming 28 years per generation. This date is consistent with the historically known movement of individuals of North African ancestry into Spain, although it is possible that this estimate also reflects a wider range of mixture times (Moorjani et al.).
    http://racehist.blogspot.com/2009/09...autosomal.html

    The above abstract appears to suggest that certain Sub-Saharan elements are to be found in patches throughout the Southern European coastline.

    At 23andMe, East Africans come out largely "European" on the Ancestry Painting, which shows that African components can be missed when largely Eurasian reference groups are used.

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    2.4% Sub-Saharan in Spain is completely exagerated. I don't know the pattern used in the study, but even the figures for Tuscany and Greece are too high. The WEAC Calculator with very low ressolution (4 groups), showed 1% aprox in Spain, and when including North+East African the figure goes near 0%. There was a post made by Dienekes' critisizing a similar study showing Sub-Saharan percents in Italy, Spain, Sardinia, etc, telling how more or less they could have obtained the figures (in the same line of what you posted). The methodology seems very similar in this one due to the high percents, I'm sure he would say the same thing. Anyways, it's true there's some Sub-Saharan element in almost all Southern Europe, but It's not significant in average.

    And about the 23andme's ancestry painting, it's an error to interpret it literally. What it really means is the following: European = Caucasoid, Asian = Mongoloid and African = Negroid. No surpise that East Africans show substantial "European", but at the correct level of ressolution we see they have mostly Southwest Asian in regards for Eursian admixtures. And we must keep in mind that their main component in the v3 run is East African, which deviates a lot towards Eurasia. So I don't think the 23andme ancestry painting is missing something, it just says what this population is in a simple way if you forget the names.

    Perhaps it's gonna surprise you, but Iberians come out 100% European (Caucasoid) almost all times there. In my opinion there's no mistery, since the vast majority of this scores are North+East African, which include very strong Caucasoid element (precisely attested by the East African example you mentioned).

    Finally, about me, I understand my result with very insignificant Sub-Saharan element. I don't think it's rare most times I come out 0%, and doesn't matter...in my opinion it's not relevant if I'm 0 or 0.4% Sub-Saharan. I really don't see the "difference".

    Also, in the K=12 v3 and other experiments from the Eurogenes project, I showed 0% West Asian and Southwest Asian. Only a figure of 0.6-0.8% South Asian seems to be recurrent, and sometimes with 0.2% Northeast Asian or Southeast Asian, but this looks much noisy. The rest goes always distributed in the main clusters found among Europeans, called in different ways depending on the project.

    And about genetic plots, it's difficult to find one including a lot of samples to show the exact position. The best one I saw was the West Eurasian one (PNG image) from the Eurogenes Project, and I clustered alone between Basques and Spaniards. It's exactly where I think ethnic Catalans should cluster, but I'm willing to see more global experiments to get a better idea.

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