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Thread: Bashkirs: What Subclades of R1b Were They?

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    Granted, thecarriers of genes can change the language (in the history of this happened morethan once), but are carriers of the genes are not at the same time, nativespeakers? Or the genes themselves are walking without speakers. You seem to bedifficult to accept the idea that the Bashkirs and other Asian carriers R1bdistant "relatives" of modern Europeans, and that all carriers of R1bspoke a language which is best preserved Turks (not to be confused with theTurks).Until recently Ihad a very skeptical of the various reconstructions of the names of the ancientpeoples of Europe in terms of the Turkiclanguages: Savromat, Sarmatians, etc.

    But in light of population genetics hasrevised its presentation.
    Yes, again, forour branch to discuss the problem: where in Europe L21 subclade and others thatare found and the Bashkirs. I give the information to ponder. In 1813-1814.Bashkirs took part in the Russian army in the war against France. About ayear of their tents were in Paris.And also like Goethe has notes of meetings with the Bashkirs. You understand -the men are men. A whole year without women ...And, once againremind the Hungarians were Cumans (Coman, Kipchaks - native R1b). This is wheresome 13-14 centuries. and placed them on the Danube.

    Now, regardingthe term "Germany":is Tacitus (98 AD. E.) Not written «De origine et situ Germanorum», so like theLatin name of his work. In addition, the Germans still Strabo mentions (I century.BC. E..) He wrote that the Romans called the Germans «germani» (Latin for"real, real"). That is, the term appears much earlier. Or am I again,something is messed up? Perhaps it ekzoetnonim, which is easily explained bythe Turkic language.


    The word «gerr»= Eng.SIR = Turks IR, ER, AR (man).


    Bashkir:
    ғər [g: er] - honor, pride, conscience.I think it's better than a "short".

    MAN = MANN = min(Turks: I).

    Also like toask, we will continue to communicate in English (machine translation, almostwithout revisions) or switch to German.

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    I don't think kooks should be encouraged on this forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AkBulat View Post
    Granted, thecarriers of genes can change the language (in the history of this happened morethan once), but are carriers of the genes are not at the same time, nativespeakers? Or the genes themselves are walking without speakers. You seem to bedifficult to accept the idea that the Bashkirs and other Asian carriers R1bdistant "relatives" of modern Europeans, and that all carriers of R1bspoke a language which is best preserved Turks (not to be confused with theTurks).Until recently Ihad a very skeptical of the various reconstructions of the names of the ancientpeoples of Europe in terms of the Turkiclanguages: Savromat, Sarmatians, etc.


    You're accusing me and everyone else of some kind of racism and xenophobia which is non-existent. I've stated before, R1b is also found predominantly amongs the Hausa people in Africa, but this is yet a different subclade. As I said, you're confusing language and genetics, and have the ad-hoc assumption that R1b (as a whole, it seems?) must somehow be tied to the Turkic languages.

    By the way, the Sarmatians were not Turkic-speaking peoples but Iranic-speaking (Indo-European) peoples. They spoke a languages represented today only with Ossetian, and (much, much more distantly) related with Persian, Kurdish and Pashtoo. There were no Turkic peoples in eastern Europe until the Migrations Period.

    Now, regardingthe term "Germany":is Tacitus (98 AD. E.) Not written «De origine et situ Germanorum», so like theLatin name of his work. In addition, the Germans still Strabo mentions (I century.BC. E..) He wrote that the Romans called the Germans «germani» (Latin for"real, real"). That is, the term appears much earlier. Or am I again,something is messed up? Perhaps it ekzoetnonim, which is easily explained bythe Turkic language.

    The word «gerr»= Eng.SIR = Turks IR, ER, AR (man).


    No offense, but that really makes no sense. I explained before that the Latin name "Germani" derives from Celtic. What makes more sense, that the Romans used a Celtic term (people whom they conquered) to describe those who were the neighbours of the Celts ("short distance" > "neighbours"), or to use a Turkic term, which certainly weren't in Central Europe by the 1st century BC / AD.

    Bashkir:
    ғər [g: er] - honor, pride, conscience.I think it's better than a "short".

    MAN = MANN = min(Turks: I).


    It does not metter if you like it better, it makes no sense. It is also obvious to me that you have no understanding of linguistic methodology. I highly recommend you to check out these:

    Comparative method
    Principles of sound change

    Also like toask, we will continue to communicate in English (machine translation, almostwithout revisions) or switch to German.


    I commend your German-speaking skills, but this forum here is in English. Most people who participate in the discussions, here do not speak German. Go figure for yourself.

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    It's possible what AkBulat is saying. Turkic tribes have always been living from Central Asia up to north and east of China. If R1b is from Central Asia than R1b could be also a proto-Tutkic haplogroup! Why not?

    Why must R1b only be linked to the Indo-Europeans speakers? R1b is much older for that and goes beyond the known language families...

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    According to me both R1b & R1a could potentially make part of the proto-Turkic tribes!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    It's possible what AkBulat is saying. Turkic tribes have always been living from Central Asia up to north and east of China. If R1b is from Central Asia than R1b could be also a proto-Tutkic haplogroup! Why not?
    Sure, I don't think anyone is saying that R1b had to be pure of any single language group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Why must R1b only be linked to the Indo-Europeans speakers? R1b is much older for that and goes beyond the known language families...
    There is no "must" to it, but if you look at the at the age of Western European R1b, which is really most R1b-L11(S127/P310) it is quite young and aligns very nicely time-wise with the Bronze Age and the spread of IE languages. The other factor, which was already pointed out, is the coincidence that Western R1b is very predominant in very predominant IE speaking areas.

    None of this proves anything, but I think it is reasonable to say if the timing is right and the geography is right, which they both are, then the probability that R1b rode along with IE languages is increased.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    It's possible what AkBulat is saying. Turkic tribes have always been living from Central Asia up to north and east of China. If R1b is from Central Asia than R1b could be also a proto-Tutkic haplogroup! Why not?
    What does not make even the slightest sense is the claim of a linguistic connection between Celtic and Turkic languages. It has absolutely no basis, especially because it's based on superficial, vague similarities between modern languages.

    Why must R1b only be linked to the Indo-Europeans speakers? R1b is much older for that and goes beyond the known language families...
    Nobody here claimed that.

    The Middle Eastern and African branch of R1b (V88) is clearly not tied with the migrations of the Indo-Europeans, and neither is the Central Asian branch (M73). The only branch of R1b that is (apparently) tied with the Indo-European migrations appears to be M269, and there really only L23. See also this tree by Maciamo. But the claim that S28, which is clearly part of the expansion in Western Europe, and which also has it's greatest diversity in Europe, is of Turkic origin, or comes from Central Asia, is just ludicrous.

    I would think it is far more plausible to be the other way round: that the Bashkirs have (partially) Central European origins, and adopted a Turkic language only later. After all, S28 is clearly significantly older than Common Turkic.
    Last edited by Taranis; 23-12-11 at 14:48.

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    Ok, but isn't possible that the Huns brought some subclades of R1b & R1a into Central Europe?

    The Huns were not entirely of Easter Eurasian stock, but according to me they had a lot genes of Western Eurasia.

    European R1b is almost of the same age as the Hunnic invasions!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Ok, but isn't possible that the Huns brought some subclades of R1b & R1a into Central Europe?
    S28? Certainly not. As I said, I actually think that Bashkir M73 is probably of Turkic origin.

    The Huns were not entirely of Easter Eurasian stock, but according to me they had a lot genes of Western Eurasia.

    European R1b is almost of the same age as the Hunnic invasions!
    That's like saying that Cicero and William Shakespeare lived almost at the same time. R1b has been in Europe since at least the Bronze Age (the oldest find thus far, and I believe that is still accurate, is from the Urnfield Culture from ca. 1000 BC).

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    I do really think that you don't understand me very well. I'm not saying that R1b folks are Turkic or of the Turkic origin. I'm not saying that folks in Europe are actually of Turkic stock.

    The only thing what I'm saying is that it's possible that some Turkic tribes (not Mongols, but real Turks) in Russia share the same ancestors as Indo-European 'speakers' all over the world.

    It doesn't matter and it's not the point now that R1b or R1a in Central Asia differ from that in Europe. Of course it is different because they separated many years ago. I've here only about the 'common' ancestors.

    Turks that have been living in the Nordic areas of Eurasia are very 'light' in appearance...

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    There shouldn't be any serious argument here. R1b is originally independent of either Altaic or IE language groups which evolved considerably later. What Taranis is saying is that subsequent clade mutations of R1b are demonstrably linkable to either Turkic or IE speakers (indeed others as well), and when IE R1b (remember-- precisely dated) appears in an unlikely area (like spots of Bashkiria-- not all but some) the obvious explanation is that it came here from the west, NOT that it somehow mutated independently in two considerably distinct areas. "Light" appearance BTW has nothing whatsoever to do with Y-DNA. It is controlled in different chromosomal locations. And language switch is also a process totally distinct from genetics. The Crimean Tatars, for example, are a very mixed lot Y-DNA wise even though they speak the same Turkic language. All this is elementary. Once you get into autosomals (which constitute 96% of our genetic identity) you will lose some of your enthusiasm for Y-DNA markers. They are interesting, frequently informative, but hardly decisive as to identity per se.

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    True, but some folks here link R1b to IE Centum languages while according to them R1a belongs to IE Satem languages. This would make R1* a proto IE marker, and that is totally ridiculous. Why? Because we all know that R1b can also be linked to other groups.

    Autosomal DNA link you only to a specific location. And it's only comparing / matching groups with other groups. Nothing else.

    Y-DNA says something about your paternal line, origin and roots!

    But back on-topic, is it possible that the so called western subclade of R1b appeared in Central Asia after some back migrating Huns from Central Europe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    True, but some folks here link R1b to IE Centum languages while according to them R1a belongs to IE Satem languages. This would make R1* a proto IE marker, and that is totally ridiculous. Why? Because we all know that R1b can also be linked to other groups.
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Autosomal DNA link you only to a specific location. And it's only comparing / matching groups with other groups. Nothing else.
    It does much more than that. It tells you what you are, genetically, at this specific point in time, and which genetic families contributed to making you what you are (incl. what you look like, since that seems of interest to you (:=)), and in what proportions. This is still a developing science, but I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with various projects dealing with autosomals. I believe there is also an Iranic one. You can find details if you join http://dna-forums.org

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Y-DNA says something about your paternal line, origin and roots.
    Yes. But not very much I'm afraid. And it can sometimes be quite misleading. Y-DNA can be transmitted in fashions which do not correlate at all with what you are at this moment. You may have had an ancestor X, and this marker persists in you even though through the ages everything associated with this ancestor has been more or less thoroughly washed out, and other criteria substituted in your makeup. Not just genetic ones, but cultural and linguistic too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    But back on-topic, is it possible that the so called western subclade of R1b appeared in Central Asia after some back migrating Huns from Central Europe?
    You'd have to ask a specialist about that. All I can say is that the "Huns" of 455 CE were no longer exactly the Huns who invaded from the east in 370 (and remember that these Huns were already associated with huge numbers of Alans, and subsequently drafted all sorts of populations into their complex). So in principle, perhaps this is possible.

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    Hello! Sorry, I write through the translator.
    I want to say a few words about the haplogroup R1b of the Bashkirs.


    As we know, there are several dozen Bashkir tribes,and a significant percentage of haplogroup R1b,currently found in three tribes: Burzyan, Kypsak (Kipchaks) and Gaina.


    In the tribe Burzyan, who lives in Burzyan,Baymak districs of Bashkortostan found haplogroup R1b-M269. Presumably, the tribe Burzyan - autochthons the Southern Urals and they come from Abashevo culture.


    In the tribe Kypsak (Kipchaks) living in Abzelilovsky,Baymak districs of Bashkortostan found subclade R1b-M73. Presumably, a tribe originally from Altai.


    In the tribe Gaina, who lives in the Perm region of Russia found "Western European" subclade R1b-U152. This tribe before the migration to the South Urals (8-9century) and the occurrence of the Bashkirs lived in the steppes near the Black and Azov Seas. Presumably, Gaina tribe - the descendants of the Goths.This is indicated by the name of the tribe "Gaina".This ethnonym was distributed among the Goths. So famous Gothic commander Gainas, who lived in the 5th century AD.

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    Undoubtedly,at present,all Western EuropeanR1bCelticandGermanicspeakingIndo-Europeanlanguages.However, there isreason to believe thata fewthousand yearsagotheytalked about"pra-Turk"languages ​​-mother tongue forR1b,and thenswitched tothe Indo-Europeanlanguages.Atthisindirectly indicatesthe similarityof myths,runes,andsome of theethnonymof names.

    Jǫtunn (Proto-Germanic *etunaz) might have the same root as "eat" (Proto-Germanic *etan) and accordingly had the original meaning of "glutton" or "man-eater", possibly in the sense of personifying chaos, the destructive forces of nature.
    In theBashkirlanguage, the word"yot,yotou" means "swallow."

    In Norse mythology, Thor (from Old Norse Þórr) is a hammer-wielding god associated with thunder, lightning, storms, oak trees, strength, the protection of mankind, and also hallowing, healing, and fertility. The cognate deity in wider Germanic mythology and paganism was known in Old English as Þunor and in Old High German as Donar (runic þonar ᚦᛟᚾᚨᚱ), stemming from a Common Germanic *Þunraz (meaning "thunder").
    In theBashkirlanguage, the word"dyngyr" means "to ring,rattle."

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    Taranis: Thank you very much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahadir View Post
    In theBashkirlanguage, the word"yot,yotou" means "swallow."

    In theBashkirlanguage, the word"dyngyr" means "to ring,rattle."
    Welcome to the forum. Regarding your language comparisons, I would issue a word of caution: you are making the same mistake that AkBulat made, namely the comparison of individual words in modern languages without checking first where they came from.

    For example, with Bashkir "yot" there is a cognate in the shape Turkish "yutmak". It is clear that this obviously derives from a common Turkic word.

    Regarding the word for thunder, Germanic *θunraz is of Indo-European origin and has cognates in other words, for example Latin "tonare" (to thunder). The development *t > *θ is part of the first germanic sound shift, and *θ > *d is part of the second Germanic sound shift. As you can see the only the modern Germanic and Turkic words are superficially similar.

    Undoubtedly,at present,all Western EuropeanR1bCelticandGermanicspeakingIndo-Europeanlanguages.However, there isreason to believe thata fewthousand yearsagotheytalked about"pra-Turk"languages ​​-mother tongue forR1b,and thenswitched tothe Indo-Europeanlanguages.Atthisindirectly indicatesthe similarityof myths,runes,andsome of theethnonymof names.
    I do not understand why you insist that the R1b speakers must have originally have been Turkic? There is no evidence of this. If you look at the "tree" of R1b, you see that the first branch to diverge are those in the Middle East and Africa:


    By your argumentation, we are to say that the original speakers of R1b must have spoken an Afroasiatic language.

    The Germanic Runes have a completely different origin from the Turkic alphabet, and as mentioned before the signs even though overtly similar have different values. The Germanic runes derive from the Etruscan alphabet, specifically the varieties of the alphabet that were used by the Celtic peoples in the alps. The word "rune" itself is of Celtic origin and means originally "mystery" or "secret" (compare Old Irish "rún").

    The Turkic people in Central Asia invented their "runes" independently, and they signs have completely different values.

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    Thank you very much.
    Last edited by Bahadir; 29-12-11 at 10:47.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    There is a possible explanation of the high frequency of U152 at least among Northern Bashkirs in Perm region tested by Myres et al. (2010)

    In Bulat Aznabaev’s work "Bashkir society from the XVII century to the first third of the XVIII century.", Ufa, 2016 (in Russian) there is information on incorporation of at least one West European into a Northern Bashkir clan:


    “Among the representatives of various ethnic groups included in the structure of the Bashkir clans, there were also groups quite exotic for the region. In 1652, the Bashkirs of the village of Bisert of the Gaynа district named Aktugan and Ilbakhtey, sons of Alish, submitted a complaint against a Bashkir of the same district Afonka, son of Yanmurza, accusing him of invading their own patrimonial land on the Bisert river. During the trial, the defendant stated that the disputed patrimony was bought from the plaintiffs father for 10 rubles.


    The plaintiff Aktugan insisted that his father could not sell the patrimony because it was not officially separated from Kushchi clan Bashkirs’ estate, since “his father was a native German (Немчин) and took the land from the Kushchi clan Bashkirs against the obligation to pay Yasak (tax), 57 years ago, and in that case his father gave a record to the Kushchi Bashkirs.”


    Thus, back in the 90s of the 16th century, a certain “German" concluded an agreement on the admission to the clan’s land, and his sons in the middle of the XVII century became full-fledged holders of patrimonial estate of the Gayna district. The appearance of a European among the Bashkirs is understandable. A decree dated June 18, 1593 was in force in neighboring Kazan county, according to which the Tatar landowners lost the right to own Russian people. Instead, they were invited to accept or buy "Lithuanians, Latvians, Tatars, and Mordovians." From distant military expeditions, they brought with them captured and bought Germans, Latvians and Lithuanians, and planted them on their lands.


    According to the census of the Kazan district by I. Boltin, a German named Anza Kutleyarov lived in the estate of the serving Tatar of Kalmyk origin, Bakshanda Nurushev. A German named Matish lived in the courtyard of the Prince Bagish Yaushev. These foreigners, having fallen into a different environment, subsequently converted to Islam, married Tatar women and assimilated completely with Tatars. In 1646, while describing the estate of Prince Baish Yaushev, the census takers registered a native German Mineyko Bekbulatov, peasant of the village of Minger of the Arsk Road,. It is likely that some of these enslaved Germans, having lost hope of returning to their homeland, at least sought to gain freedom. "


    Personally I would like to add that the Russian word «Nemchin» translated here as «German» at the time had the meaning of a Western European in general and not exclusively German.
    The full text of the Russian document about Alish’s sons was published in another work. So we know that in 1652 three sons of a native «German» were members of a Northern Bashkir clan Kushchi and had patrimonial estate at the confluence of Bisert and Ufa rivers.
    Last edited by Yabalak; 12-11-19 at 08:06.

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