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View Poll Results: Choose all that apply; which Europeans overlap with Lebanese, Syrians, etc.?

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  • Russians

    2 6.06%
  • Poles

    2 6.06%
  • Croatians, Serbians, Bosnians

    5 15.15%
  • Bulgarians

    7 21.21%
  • Greeks

    13 39.39%
  • Sicilians

    21 63.64%
  • Albanians

    6 18.18%
  • Italians

    11 33.33%
  • Germans

    3 9.09%
  • Spaniards

    8 24.24%
  • Portuguese

    8 24.24%
  • French

    4 12.12%
  • Maltese

    19 57.58%
  • British

    2 6.06%
  • Dutch

    2 6.06%
  • Scandinavian (Swedish, Danish etc)

    1 3.03%
  • Czech or Slovakian

    1 3.03%
  • Cypriots

    23 69.70%
  • Hungarians

    2 6.06%
  • Other (specify)

    3 9.09%
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Thread: Final thread.. which Europeans overlap with Levantines? Multiple choice.

  1. #51
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    Thanks sparkey, you know exactly to explain this things better. Your point is helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    ????

    How can you see on AUTOSOMAL that your race belong to 'I', R1b etc. or someting.


    AUTOSOMAL is not only Y-DNA, but also mtDNA!

    I think that Spanish mtDNA is the same as Northern European!
    You can belong to haplogroup Q and cluster with Scandinavians. But this doesn't change the fact that autosomes are an amount of superposed haplogroups, going from a generation to another. And Iberians are very likely to have a huge background of I2a peoples, like it or not.

    Or do you think that autosomes grow like a mushroom in the forest?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    And Iberians are very likely to have a huge background of I2a peoples, like it or not.

    Or do you think that autosomes grow like a mushroom in the forest?
    It doesn't matter for me what Iberians are, but I don't believe in fantasy and science fiction.

    Iberian Y-DNA distribution doesn't lie and it speaks volumes! Iberians have almost no hg. 'I'! FACT!

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    Think what you want, but the haplogroup distribution several times does not match. The ancient DNA found is what really don't lie at the moment.

    Good afternoon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    It doesn't matter for me what Iberians are, but I don't believe in fantasy and science fiction.

    Iberian Y-DNA distribution doesn't lie and it speaks volumes! Iberians have almost no hg. 'I'! FACT!
    Goga, agree or disagree with the following?: "Y-DNA is a biased marker, and Y-DNA haplogroup frequencies in a population tend to magnify the effect of later migrations on that population."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    It doesn't matter for me what Iberians are, but I don't believe in fantasy and science fiction.

    Iberian Y-DNA distribution doesn't lie and it speaks volumes! Iberians have almost no hg. 'I'! FACT!
    "FACT"??? Much of what has been recently discussed contradicts what you are saying. Once more, why are you so obsessed with unfairly darkening (in every which way, it seems) Iberians? What's eating you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambrius (The Red) View Post
    "FACT"??? Much of what has been recently discussed contradicts what you are saying. Once more, why are you so obsessed with unfairly darkening (in every which way, it seems) Iberians? What's eating you?
    Do you really think that I'm a moron?

    How can the Spanish hg. 'R1b' be actually hg. 'I'?

    Spanish folks are very close to other Europeans because of R1b and mtDNA! mtDNA of all Europeans is almost the same and very native to Europe!

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    R1b it's significant in autosomal results, but not the huge I2a variants are. I think it's easy to understand. And both R1b's find in Europe and I subclades are "very European" (quite redundant, but necessary to say), so of course Spaniards are similar to other Europeans. Not only for the R1b, it's the full chorus.

    ¿Why we should be that different for being composed mostly of I2a subclades? You have strange points man...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    R1b it's significant in autosomal results, but not the huge I2a variants are. I think it's easy to understand. And both R1b's find in Europe and I subclades are "very European" (quite redundant, but necessary to say), so of course Spaniards are similar to other Europeans. Not only for the R1b, it's the full chorus.

    ¿Why we should be that different for being composed mostly of I2a subclades? You have strange points man...
    Yes that's true. European R1b and hg. 'I' are very native European haplogroups. But native hg. 'I' carriers lived in Northern Europe while native R1b carriers lived in Southern Europe and British Islands.
    According to me the original R1b carriers were darker than the original hg. 'I' carriers. Spaniards have compared to North Europeans more R1b and less of hg. 'I'. That's why they are in general somehow darker than Northern Europeans!

    That's my point and nothing else!

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    Not all I's lived in Northern Europe. Check this thread, it's quite ilustrative: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...627#post384627

    Check the sublcades in the map, specially those located in the Pyrenees and Iberia, and perhaps you'll understand what I mean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Not all I's lived in Northern Europe. Check this thread, it's quite ilustrative: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...627#post384627

    Check the sublcades in the map, specially those located in the Pyrenees and Iberia, and perhaps you'll understand what I mean.
    Ok, thanks.

    As fas as I do understand hg. I2a never fully entered into the Iberian Peninsula and never fully established there. And that I2a came actually from other 'Northern' location in Europe ('northern' compared to the Iberian Peninsula)...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I was in Barcelona and I was in Madrid. I live in Amsterdam and here live many Spanish people. And Spanish people in general are MUCH darker than Dutch folks. Fact!

    I'm sorry that I'm not blind!
    Totally agree. A lot of people have a blind faith around a mith.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Ok, thanks.

    As fas as I do understand hg. I2a never fully entered into the Iberian Peninsula and never fully established there. And that I2a came actually from other 'Northern' location in Europe...
    Hmm... dating indicates that such a dispersal of I2a from Northern Europe would have had to have happened in the Paleolithic... but Northern Europe was less inhabitable then. So I'm inclined to declare this theory "unlikely."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    ('northern' compared to the Iberian Peninsula)...
    Sorry, I started responding before you added this. Yes, it's possible that I2a dispersed from north of the Iberian Peninsula during the Paleolithic... but that doesn't really say much. I think it dispersed from east of there too at one point.... again, not saying much.

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    I2a1a was originated in the Pyrenees, that's quite accepted today. Enough to generate Southwestern autosomes, and no need to say others could do so too. But it's very likely for a very long time, that I2a1a peoples inhabited the Iberian Peninsula in a great number, and their autosomes survived till modern days exceedingly well, even considering the R1b irruption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Hmm... dating indicates that such a dispersal of I2a from Northern Europe would have had to have happened in the Paleolithic... but Northern Europe was less inhabitable then. So I'm inclined to declare this theory "unlikely."
    Ok. But do you think that I2 is from Iberia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Ok. But do you think that I2a is from Iberia?
    We really don't have enough data to be making declarations about I2a as a whole, other than that its center of diversity is in Europe, probably Western Europe, although even that we're not 100% sure of. We can speculate about Ice Age refuges all day, but we don't really know.

    It's pretty clear that I2a1a is from Southwestern Europe, though... probably Northeastern Iberia or Southwestern France. And that's the subclade that seems to have been the the most common during the Neolithic in Europe, especially in the Southwest.

    Edit: You just changed it to ask if I2 is from Iberia. I2 is only a little older than I2a and we know just as little about the I2 MRCA as about the I2a MRCA.
    Last edited by sparkey; 20-10-11 at 21:52. Reason: Response to Goga's edit

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    Thanks sparkey, you are really better than me to explain this things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    We really don't have enough data to be making declarations about I2a as a whole, other than that its center of diversity is in Europe, probably Western Europe, although even that we're not 100% sure of. We can speculate about Ice Age refuges all day, but we don't really know.

    It's pretty clear that I2a1a is from Southwestern Europe, though... probably Northeastern Iberia or Southwestern France. And that's the subclade that seems to have been the the most common during the Neolithic in Europe, especially in the Southwest.

    Edit: You just changed it to ask if I2 is from Iberia. I2 is only a little older than I2a and we know just as little about the I2 MRCA as about the I2a MRCA.
    Ok, I thought (and still think) that I2 is actually somewhere for the Balkans (Southeast Europe).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Thanks sparkey, you are really better than me to explain this things.
    I thought you were explaining well but I'm trying things a bit different to see if I can pull Goga our direction.

    By the way, I'm agreeing with you on most things, but I'm inclined to use less certain terms about the relationship between Y-DNA and autosomal DNA. I'm not convinced yet that the autosomal DNA of R1b peoples isn't an important part of the Southwestern cluster. But you've certainly been convincing about how there's a very good chance that the autosomal impact of the ancient I2a1a carriers is higher than what we see in modern Y-DNA frequency distributions. In fact, I don't see that not being the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Ok, I thought (and still think) that I2 is actually somewhere for the Balkans (Southeast Europe).
    That was the old hat assumption based on frequency distributions. I think that it was the I2a1b1a-Din expansion confusing people. Don't get me wrong, nothing rules out the Balkans, its southern location makes it a possibility, but it's not the only possibility. I2 has too many bottlenecks to come to a good conclusion about where it was so long ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    That was the old hat assumption based on frequency distributions. I think that it was the I2a1b1a-Din expansion confusing people. Don't get me wrong, nothing rules out the Balkans, its southern location makes it a possibility, but it's not the only possibility. I2 has too many bottlenecks to come to a good conclusion about where it was so long ago.
    Ok. Btw Iberians are further away on autosomal maps from Europeans that have got a lot of hg. I.
    Iberians are the closest to other Celts in the area, Italians (Italo-Celtic origin) and French. Italians don't have much of hg. I either, only for about 6.5 %. While French have very much Germanic influences and that's why they have 10% of hg. I1 !!!

    Iberians are not that close to East Europeans. I mean even many West Asian/Caucasian groups are closer to the East European than the Iberians are. But maybe that's because of lack of hg. R1a....

    Ps. And East Europeans have in general much more of hg. 'I' than West Europeans (Celts) do!

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    You are twisting things and falling in the same error again. Check the Euro7 spreadsheet and think that I2a1a* people could have a huge relevance between both French and Italians, like happens in Iberians at the highest level.

    Quoting sparkey: that's the subclade that seems to have been the the most common during the Neolithic in Europe.

    Haplogroup distribution often gives a false impresion, or in other words, don't tell all things. And you still have it as the greatest truth. Open your mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Quoting sparkey: that's the subclade that seems to have been the the most common during the Neolithic in Europe.
    At some points I do agree with him. But about I2 is being a major hg. in Iberia before the Neolithic is nothing more but pure SPECULATION!

    I do trully believe that hg. 'I' was very common in Eastern (among Slavic nations), Northern (Scandinavia) and Southeastern Europe (Balkans). But NOT in Iberia and British Islands.

    I'm not convinced and I want to see evidences first!

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    If R1b is younger than hg. 'I' in Western Europe, then is R1b not European AT ALL. But migrated only 3000-4000 years ago from Asia. Via the Pontic Steppes (also in Asia) from Anatolia.

    This would mean that Celts are actually ASIAN in origin, and this doesn't make any sense to me!

    Celts are NOT the most Asian people in Europe! According to me they are actually the 'oldest' Europeans!

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