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Southern Ukraine has the lowest East European Admixture but the highest I2a1b.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autoso..._dodecad.shtml
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y...logroups.shtml
Dacians battle flag is made from a head of a wolf:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_Draco
Link that with the popular customs from Serbia,those related to wolf.In Romania and Serbia,but more often in Serbia,there are families who have wolf and something as family name,take for example serbian Vuk,Vukovic and so on or romanian Lupu,Lupescu and so on.
(in serbian vuk means wolf and in romanian the word was taken from latin and is lup ).
Is clearly that dacians were speaking a slavic language,after the sonority of today romanian.
Look at this old custom from Serbia,which have also resemblances in Romania:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian...ditions#Koleda
"The koleda was a custom that a group of young men, masked and costumed, went from house to house of their village singing special koleda songs and performing acts of magic intended to summon health, wealth, and prosperity for each household. The members of the group were called koledari. The koleda was carried out from the Feast of Saint Ignatius Theophorus (five days before Christmas) up until the Epiphany. This custom was best preserved in the upper Pčinja District, and in the region around the River South Morava in the Jablanica District, southeastern Serbia. Regarded as pagan and discouraged by the Serbian Orthodox Church, the koleda ceased to be performed among most of the Serbs during the 19th and 20th centuries.
Koledari prepared themselves during several days before the start of the koleda: they practiced the koleda songs, and made their masks and costumes The masks could be classified into three types according to the characters they represented: the anthropomorphic, the zoomorphic (representing bear, cow, stag, goat, sheep, ox, wolf, stork, etc.), and the anthropo-zoomorphic."
In Romania the custom is still kept with people being dressed as bears or as goats.
Koleda in romanian is colinda (which translates in english by carol ) so is clear the word is coming from same root.
Yes other nations have also the custom to go from house to house on Christmas to sing carols,but the tradition to dress in goat and go sing carols for Christmas I only saw till now at romanians and serbians.
You are wrong to dress in masks and costumes of animals and sing songs from door to door is typical Slavic custom.Originally Posted by mihaitzateo
Check it up in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koleda
that is much older, ancient IE customs, existed in Greeks thousand years before,
And exist in Kallasha, which means that the custom IS NOT SLAVIC but older (Greek Thracian etc)
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?20905-European-Christmas-Customs&p=390338&viewfull=1#post390338
post #12
But has it something to do with the Thread?
ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ
When there is no shame
Divine blindness conquers them
Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
Nemesis and punishment follows.
Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.
Nop it is ancient Greek and Thracian that took it forma at Roman times, not at all Slavic
read above post
Kolenda - καλαντα from roman Calendar
annexation by East Churches only in case that the song say about Jesus etc.
Well when the term slav appeared ?
Dacians are called slavs in an old chronicle dated before 1000 BC,when Charlemagne went on these lands.
This whole thing with slavs coming here is just a forgery.
The bulgars who were an elite warrior tribe,but not very numerous came,and they gave the name to Bulgaria but that does not means that Bulgaria is not having thraco (slavo)-ilyrian population.
They (bulgars) adopted south slavic language and mixed with local thraco(slavo)-ilyrian population.
Yetos get out with your greek propaganda from this thread!
In Greece was taken from south slavs/dacians since there is a lot of I2A in north Greece.
Do you have any popular customs linked to wolf as serbians kept?
NO.
Is so hard to make connection between dacians high importance to wolf and the fact that a lot of serbians have names linked to wolf,with vuc or vuk because is said that is good for the one bearing that name and in romanians,to a lesser extent,are still people that have family name as Lupu or Lupescu?
Or is so hard to make the connection between dacian battle standard which was a head of a wolf and what customs serbs kept with wolf?
Are you blind?You keep negating the obvious truth with popular costumes from Serbia and Romania being almost same?And with popular customs being same and more with the word that is used to name some customs being from same root?There are even same melodic lines,but same,at popular songs from Romania and from Serbia!
Go look how popular costumes of dacians from 2k years ago are depicted on Trajan's Column!
Cause they are same with some romanians popular costumes and some serbian popular costumes!
In case you do not know history Byzantin (greek) Empire/Roman Empire never ruled Romania,except for a short period!
They ruled a little more Serbia.
I2A is dacian/south slavic haplogrup since dacians or south slavs are same thing.
And in Romania is very clearly seen as you move from south to north,how R1A1 percentage raise and how I2A percentage decrease as you move toward east.
Since Bessarabia/Republic of Moldavia got about 30% R1A1 clades and about 30% I2A while romanians from Neamt and Buhusi got 41% I2A and 20% R1A1 clades.
These dacians/south slavs from Romania prefered to adopt a lot of latin words and change gramatics to be closer to latin gramatics,the south slavs from Serbia and Croatia and Bulgaria kept a language more closed to old proto-slavic that dacians were talking.
But we have the diacritics common,more the romanian language have pretty present the sound â as you pronounce in russian name Myskina the y,or more clear how you pronounce ъ in Търново (Veliko Tŭrnovo is a city in Bulgaria : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veliko_Tarnovo;now guess what there is a village in Republic of Moldavia called exactly same http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%AE...Dondu%C5%9Feni written with romanian letters Tîrnova;the people from Republic of Moldavia are romanians also,but they are calling themselves moldoveni and they say they are speaking moldavian;A third of Romania is also called Moldavia,since old Moldavia now is split in 2 one part,Republic of Moldavia being a separate state:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldavia and Republic of Moldavia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Moldova).
And this sound is from proto-slavic so from this point of view romanian language is also a slavic language.But south slavs also have this sound (you can hear it clear when they pronounce the letters,and also in other words,even though is not written) and no other european language have it except slavic languages and cyrilic alphabet have tow letters for it:
Ы ы or Ѫ ѫ
South slavs from Bulgaria and romanians had a kingdom together,how do you think they were speaking,through signs?
Or in latin?
Lol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Asen_I_of_Bulgaria
In romanian he is called Ioan Asan.
Thracians are still some dacians and ancestors to today bulgarians mostly.
But I think slavs were called generic as "thracians" also sometimes.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
Look at the percentage of I2A in Belarus (18%) in Ukraine (21%).And from what I understood is pretty present in south-western Russia also with something like 20% or more also.
And I think this is also I2A din,at least according to this map,is I2A1b :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HaplogroupI2.png
In Spain,south Italy is I2A sardinian,M26 clade of I2,not I2A-din.
What?
Only Slav searchers connect Thracian with Thracian,
And if your customs were Slavic then why Exist in Kallasha people?
SIMPLY CAUSE THEY ARE ANCIENT THRACIAN and GREEK
I AM TIRED TO READ EFFORTS OF MAKING SLAVIC POPULATIONS AS LOCAL IN BALKANS BEFORE 5th CENTURY,
THE WOLF
or LYCAON or ΛΥΚΟΣ FROM LYCAONIA minor ASIA
The wolf Serch ancient Greek History about wolf and wolf trnsformation
THE DRACOΝ which existed in ATHENS comes from virb Δραττωμαι
REMΕMBER THAT ALTERNATE FOR WOLF IS ΔΑΚΟΣ DAKOS not DACI but DAKI from Virb ΔΑΓΚΩΝΩ
STOP F... HISTORY
THERE NO CONNECTION OF I2a as SLAVIC BUT AS THRACIAN
BESIDES
ΔΑΚΟΙ - DACI - DEAUTSCH - DUTCH etc moved west
As GETS ALSO
THE ONLY WHO STAY IN BALKANS ARE THE GREEKS AND THE REMNANTS OF ROMANS AND THRACIANS
GET IN YOUR IND AND START CROSS THE INFOS
SLAVS ENTER FROM THE LAND OF SCYTHIANS SKOLOTOI TO ROMANIA AS SEVERI and TO SERBIA FROM THE GREAT MORAVIA
STOP STILLING ANCIENT THRACIANS AND MAKE THEM SLAVIC POPULATION.
IN WHICH SLAVIC LANGUAGE ΔΑΚΟΣ MEANS WOLF?
BUT IN GREEK IT DOES
As for Lykos Λυκος search the LATIN LUKULUS and Lukuleian dinner (Λυκουλειο Γευμα)
and Lupis (Αλωπηξ)
THRACIANS WERE NOT SCYTHIANS NEITHER SLAVIC
I gave you a good vocabulary
search for more words outside the cheap propaganda fairy stories tellers
Even good Linguists in Bulgaria which is the Heart of what Makedonians name Thrace although they manage to connect, they still reject the idea that Thracians spoke SLavic but a more towards Satem and SLavic than Greeco-Brygian and Centum
while most Greek Thracologist they found a language that was Centum and more to Greek and Germanic-Gothic
AND FOR YOUR INFORMATION
THE I2 IN GREECE IS NOT IN ITS MAXIMUM IN NORTHERN GREECE
BUT NEAR THRACE AREAS AND IN AGRINION FAR AWAY IN CENTRAL AND SOUTH GREECE
TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT
I2A2 DIN S IS SLAVIC ONLY IF WE PROVE THAT ENTERED FROM MORAVIA AND UCRAINE
BUT IF I2A .. DIVERSITY IS BIGGER IN BALKANS
THEN I2A IS THRACIAN WHICH MOVED TO UCRAINE AND TO MORAVIA AND RETURN WITH ANOTHER LANGUAGE
DON'T MAKE SCYTHIANS AND SARMATES THRACIANS
SATEM LANGUAGE MEANS CONNECTION WITH TURKIC POPULATION
ALL CELTIC GERMANIC GREEK ARE NOT SATEM CAUSE DID NOT MIX WITH TURKIC POPULATION
search the etymology ΣΚΩΛΟΤΟΙ to latin SCLAVINI
Yetos, although I don't necessarily agree with mihaitzateo's conflation of Slavs with Thracians and Dacians (I think they simply form important substrata in South Slavs and others, explaining the common traits), I don't think that dismissing the conflation implies that I2a is therefore Thracian. If it was Thracian, we would expect a few things:
- High I2a-Din diversity in Thracia, probably higher than anywhere else, given I2a-Din's age
- I2a-Din spillover into Anatolia, moreso than into West Slavic and East Slavic populations
- A westward cline of the most common I2a-Din subgroup in the Balkans
But we don't see any of these things.
That sound,â,which is characteristic to slavic languages it shows the continuity of thracians/dacians called also scyths and later slavs in Romania,Serbia,Bosnia,Croatia,Bulgaria and so on.
No one can contest this.
No one can contest either the popular costumes of dacians from Trajan's column and the exact resemblance with today romanians and serbs popular costumes.
This forum is so biased,romanians and croats and serbs and bulgars are called "invaders" after none of this nation made agression wars how most "civilised" european nations did and so on.
If they are invaders,how come they were such peacefull nations in their history?
They invaded once and after stop invaded?
Is not like Roman Empire came here to conquer them,before that the celts tryed to conquer them,after the goths came and ruled them and so on.
Is outrageous how people are allowed to throw lies about romanians,serbs,croatians and so on.
Ye dac-dutch lol,be serious.
And in polish http://translate.google.com/#en|pl|carol koleda is still coming from greek or latin and not from proto-slavic?
Ye sure.
:))
In case you do not know in romanian colinda is a verb and it also means wondering,which is clearly from old proto-slavic.
Or look how you say in old russian at Christmas:
(Old) Russian Koročun
Now in romanian that is Craciun
(when the pronounce the words are very closed).
Is that from greek or latin also?
And you see is old russian,so is clear romanian have also a lot of words closed to old proto-slavic.
Lol.
Serious in Kallasha people are customs to go before Christmas dressed in goat skin and sing carols?
Or are in Kallasha people customs to put names with wolf in them?
Or are Kallasha people linked to the mountains,because you know opinca means original climbing shoe.
Or are in Kallasha people popular costumes that would look similar to serbs/romanians?
No they are not!
Beside,their language is not linked in any way to slavic languages.
How can you explain the serbian traditional saying "only were the wolf and serb can dwell"?
According to a letter of a byzantine noblemen from around 1100 after dacians were beaten in 2nd dacian-roman war in 106 a lot of them run and settled in Elada and other where is today Macedonia,in mountains there so here are the custom from Macedonia (FYROM) which present a very close resemblance to dacians customs which are inherited to serbians,romanians and so on. Those customs there are not from the ancient greek population of Macedonia.So here you have the explanation of I2A from north Greece and FYROM/Macedonia.
Enjoy this map,based on how definite and indefinite article is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eu...eLanguages.png
In Scandinavia is influence from goths,who were influenced by dacians from the time they spent in Romania,Bulgaria and so on.
I really do not care about greek empire/roman empire propaganda which is trying without any solid proof,just forging the real sense of some words,to make romanians,serbs,croats and so on invaders here.
You are just a brain washed greek,who is believing without any proofs greek empire/roman empire lies.
So sorry,but serbians/romanians/bulgars and russians did not take part in those horribile atrocities which were the crusades,where innocent childrens and women were killed,while Byzantin Empire supported the crusaders.
Greeks and other so called "civilised" european nations were the invaders here and now some are trying to pervert history so they can steal our lands,enslave the people and so on.
Look here how rulers of greek ancestry were imposed in Romania and they were opressing romanians from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phanari...Principalities
well I2a1b1 ( L69) was found in a lot of roman people including many emperors who where from dalmatia. Since the romans had no knowledge of slavs then this marker must purely be illyrian of the Dalmatian tribes. And since the greeks had no record of illyrians until 400BC ( BCE) then the marker came from central european migration into the western balkans.
It it was not illyric, then celts where also mixing with illyrian in dalmatia, then it was a celtic marker, either way it can never be brought into the balkans from the east.
Father's Mtdna H95a1
Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
Mother's YDna R1a-Z282
1rst you did not read the Link I gave
2nd Byzantine was destroyed by Crusaders
search Crusades especially 4rth
and remember that Greek revolt started in Romania, by phanariotes
if they did not exist Romania still will be under Ottoman empire.
3rd Thracians were not Scythians
4rth Bulgars Cumans ware not IE
5th How can you explain that these Traditions exist in the whole of Greeks
Dedicated to God Komos or Momos and exist even in minor Asian Greeks and Pontic Greeks
were Smyrna and Pontic Greeks Slavic population also?
or Kallasha were they Slavic population?
About the wolf I gave the best explanation and you tell me about a song
DAKOS = WOLF IN WHICH SLAVIC LANGUAGE?
Read the post #12 in the link of Eupedia I gave
Kallasha have same rituals in Christmas (winter's sun position 23 december) and then we discuss again.
1) Well only I know is that Thracians are mentioned existed at about 1200 BC Troyan war?
is that so near or so far?
2) Thracians is not Thrace,
Thrace is an area named after Makedonians at epigoni times,
Before Thrace was Fyrom Serbia Bosnia Bulgaria Turkey Romania and above IStros (Donav) reaching Hungaria as also Kossovo which was considered Dardani an Illyro-thracian
and Getae - Thrace was Bulgaria Romania Moldova Ucraine
in Ucraine we have the first evidence of Scythians and the existance of Sarmates, as also the Greeks,
If you understand that Thracian Lands are from East of Dinaric Alps to Ucraine then you understand that your 1rst and and Second argue is only by a misunderstanding, Odrysse Thracian were not the only ones, Gets Daci triballi etc were Thracians, so the area which today we are naming Thrace does respond to the one area , that they existed,
it is like calling Austrians or Dutch or Saxons as non Germanic cause they are not in Deutshland
3 If the diversity gives I2a2 Din S primary in Central europe and Ucraine ,
Lands that also inhabited by Thracians
4 I wonder which is more new The I Y-DNA in Greece and in minor Asia or the I2a2 DIN S
cause if the case of Agrinion Crete Cyprus and Kurds is later than I2a2 Din then surely I2a2 did enter with Slavic
if I2a2 Din is younger than the I Y-DNA islands in the above then surely is Slavic,
We can not expect I YDNA from Denmark to enter first in Greece Kurds and Cyprus and then the Northern parts of Balkans,
I mean which is the bottleneck or the matrix? from I2a2 Din exit the rest I Ydna in the above areas or not?when
When we talk about Thracians we talk about a Nation or language bigger than Persian empire and second after Indians
nobody knows where was their Starting point
they existed from North Greece to above Hungary to far Russia,
today the similarity is showing Slavic population,
But we know that Scythians pushed Thacians and Getae to West and North after their entrance in Scythia minor,
the area that is known today as Thrace (Greece Bulgaria Turkey) is only the Lyssimachus Kingdom (Alexander's epigoni) so Starting point of Thracians could be Central Europe, or Dinaric Alps or Ucraine or Even minor Asia
Thrace and especially the part that now is in Turkey is a strange area due to Kon/polis and the migration especially of male DNA of soldiers for thousand of Years
it is just searching modern N York to find who were the Indians of Manhattan
and because I want to trust you
the major question which you are called to answer are
1) is I2a2 Din earlier or later of the rest I YDNA in more southerm areas? (Greece Crete Cyprus Kurds) could it work as a matrix , a bottleneck to the others?
2) I2a2 existed at the time 1200 BC? in the same areas?
Last edited by Yetos; 24-03-12 at 18:22.
As it has already been written the theory with slavs coming from somewhere in Balkans is just a forgery of some from Byzantine Empire.
This is proved very simple,if you look in which countries a slavic language is spoke and you include Romania,since in Romania is spoken also a slavic language,at least as phonology (sonority) which is included when you make a clasification over a language.
Now except Hungary and Austria,the zone in which slavic languages are spoken forms a continuum which proves very very clear the forgery with slavs coming from somewhere.
Take the popular costume from Czechia,for example,the popular costume from Doudlesbko,how the jacket from male popular costume is called there?
Bunda.
http://www.czech.cz/en/Discover-CZ/L.../Folk-costumes
"A “bunda” or short or long jacket was worn with the costume and a fur coat was worn in winter".
Now in romanian language,an exactly similar term exist :
http://dexonline.ro/definitie/bundă
What does this means?
Between other meanings is also used to call the jacket from male popular costumes.
This shows again clearly that the term thracians,when used to tell that they were most numerous after indians in those times is refering to slavs.
I2A din did not came from anywhere,is just a slavic haplogrup,that is more present in south slavs which are same with
dacians.
Howcan someone explain the presence of I2A din in Hungary,in Czechia,Slovakia,Hungary,Poland in pretty significant percentages?
Please include Romania and Republic of Moldavia to this map and see what happens,as south slavic countries,considering the resemblances in words,popular costumes,popular customs,the fact that first written romanian document was in slavonic alphabet and so on.
E-V13 is ilyrian-greek (no ideea if it is greek or ilyrian) haplogrup as origin,but is pretty present in south slavs (dacians) also.However,as you move north the presence of E-V13 decrease.
In Albania there are also very good resemblances in popular costumes,in popular customs,words and so on with Romania.
How can someone explain the fact that I2A din forms a continuum and in this continuum slavic languages are spoken,except Hungary and Austria?
I made an error on the thread with thracians,in old sagas Odinn is told be to trojan,not thracian,a prince from Troy.
Thracians are said to have been allied with trojans,but not trojans.
In Sarmisegetuza was found an old colored mosaic (which is now destroyed,but there is some reproduction made after it which survived) depicting a scene from Trojan War.
Which can be explained by the fact that dacians were also allied with Troy.
However,that does not makes thracians and dacians same with trojans,since Troy was where is today Turkey,on the east coast of Black Sea (where is today Turkey),while Trakia was where is today Bulgaria.So trojans and thracians were living in different places.
A part of Ex-Yugoslavia was named those days "Dacia Ripensis" another part "Dacia mediteraneea" and so on,while most of Ex-Yugoslavia was named those days "Diocesse of Dacia" while most of today Bulgaria was name "Diocesse of Thrace".
The map can be seen at a larger dimension at :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Balkans_6th_century.svg/1000px-Balkans_6th_century.svg.png
I can not attach here at a decent dimension so you can see what is written on the map.
Which shows that croatians,serbs,bosnians are also dacian populations which is pretty clear if you do not deny the amazing resemblance with romanian popular costumes and with how dacians are represented on Trajan's column.
There is no such a popular costume in Kalasha!
This is old dacian costume!
There are no similar words between Kalasha and romanians/serbian/croatian /bulgarian!
Romanian is a Romance language, regardless of it's phonology.
Haplogroup E-V13 is Neolithic. It has been found in a Neolithic sample from Spain.E-V13 is ilyrian-greek (no ideea if it is greek or ilyrian) haplogrup as origin,but is pretty present in south slavs (dacians) also.However,as you move north the presence of E-V13 decrease.
Have you ever wondered how far-fetched and utterly unlikely it is to start arguing genetics and ancestry of an Y-Haplogroup based on folk costumes?! I'm giving you the same advice I've given a couple of over people here already: stop this.In Albania there are also very good resemblances in popular costumes,in popular customs,words and so on with Romania.
How can someone explain the fact that I2A din forms a continuum and in this continuum slavic languages are spoken,except Hungary and Austria?
i always found this modern map odd, how strange southern slavs are not linked with the other slavs by land?As it has already been written the theory with slavs coming from somewhere in Balkans is just a forgery of some from Byzantine Empire.
This is proved very simple,if you look in which countries a slavic language is spoke and you include Romania,since in Romania is spoken also a slavic language,at least as phonology (sonority) which is included when you make a clasification over a language.
Now except Hungary and Austria,the zone in which slavic languages are spoken forms a continuum which proves very very clear the forgery with slavs coming from somewhere.
Take the popular costume from Czechia,for example,the popular costume from Doudlesbko,how the jacket from male popular costume is called there?
Bunda.
http://www.czech.cz/en/Discover-CZ/L.../Folk-costumes
"A “bunda” or short or long jacket was worn with the costume and a fur coat was worn in winter".
Now in romanian language,an exactly similar term exist :
http://dexonline.ro/definitie/bundă
What does this means?
Between other meanings is also used to call the jacket from male popular costumes.
This shows again clearly that the term thracians,when used to tell that they were most numerous after indians in those times is refering to slavs.
I2A din did not came from anywhere,is just a slavic haplogrup,that is more present in south slavs which are same with
dacians.
Howcan someone explain the presence of I2A din in Hungary,in Czechia,Slovakia,Hungary,Poland in pretty significant percentages?
Please include Romania and Republic of Moldavia to this map and see what happens,as south slavic countries,considering the resemblances in words,popular costumes,popular customs,the fact that first written romanian document was in slavonic alphabet and so on.
E-V13 is ilyrian-greek (no ideea if it is greek or ilyrian) haplogrup as origin,but is pretty present in south slavs (dacians) also.However,as you move north the presence of E-V13 decrease.
In Albania there are also very good resemblances in popular costumes,in popular customs,words and so on with Romania.
How can someone explain the fact that I2A din forms a continuum and in this continuum slavic languages are spoken,except Hungary and Austria?
IIRC , all thracian people in the ancient times ....dacians, NW area, Getae NE area, Moesians/Triballi SW area and Odysenian SE area.
Old dacian costumes where bought from other tribes because they could not make them , its called trade, most people would have dressed similar
This is hardly unique, however. There's plenty of other examples, historic and present of such a distribution:
Celtic languages (note distribution in Antiquity):
Turkic languages:
Uralic languages:
Na-Dene languages:
Friend plzAs it has already been written the theory with slavs coming from somewhere in Balkans is just a forgery of some from Byzantine Empire.
This is proved very simple,if you look in which countries a slavic language is spoke and you include Romania,since in Romania is spoken also a slavic language,at least as phonology (sonority) which is included when you make a clasification over a language.
Now except Hungary and Austria,the zone in which slavic languages are spoken forms a continuum which proves very very clear the forgery with slavs coming from somewhere.
Take the popular costume from Czechia,for example,the popular costume from Doudlesbko,how the jacket from male popular costume is called there?
Bunda.
http://www.czech.cz/en/Discover-CZ/L.../Folk-costumes
"A “bunda” or short or long jacket was worn with the costume and a fur coat was worn in winter".
Now in romanian language,an exactly similar term exist :
http://dexonline.ro/definitie/bundă
What does this means?
Between other meanings is also used to call the jacket from male popular costumes.
This shows again clearly that the term thracians,when used to tell that they were most numerous after indians in those times is refering to slavs.
I2A din did not came from anywhere,is just a slavic haplogrup,that is more present in south slavs which are same with
dacians.
Howcan someone explain the presence of I2A din in Hungary,in Czechia,Slovakia,Hungary,Poland in pretty significant percentages?
Please include Romania and Republic of Moldavia to this map and see what happens,as south slavic countries,considering the resemblances in words,popular costumes,popular customs,the fact that first written romanian document was in slavonic alphabet and so on.
E-V13 is ilyrian-greek (no ideea if it is greek or ilyrian) haplogrup as origin,but is pretty present in south slavs (dacians) also.However,as you move north the presence of E-V13 decrease.
In Albania there are also very good resemblances in popular costumes,in popular customs,words and so on with Romania.
How can someone explain the fact that I2A din forms a continuum and in this continuum slavic languages are spoken,except Hungary and Austria?
Stop connecting modern costumes and tradition of Slavic with ancient Thracians
Slavic culture exist for 1500 years in Balkans and assimilated older Thraciian
I repeat my even great Linguist altough they accept that there is a Slavic connection an Albanian connection and the Grco Brygian connection they Deny that Slavs = Thracians or Albanians = Thracians or Greeks = Thracians
if Slavic population existed in the times of Herodotus or other ancient Greeks or even at STrabo times they would be named as Slavs all ancient Writers and Roman Historicals and Byzantine etc were not so Stupid.
Thracian culture and Language stop to exist,
1 cause thracian moved,
2 cause Thracian got assimilated when they were Conquered
3 cause Christianity did damage to them as to all other ancient cultures,
cause they got Slavicised or Romanised or Turkish etc
the case of Pomaks in Greece (Tamrash Valley and not the Muslim Slavs) which is area of total isolation
shows 2 major thinks,
South Thracian had Meditterenean autosomal (and east mediterenean major carriers)
Thracians spoke a language that sounds like Slavic but it is not like the known SLavic cause follows other forms and syntax and has root words that are more close to Makedonian dialect,
from the Kallasha we learn transformation and aspirations and I inform the ending -s is not -c
now if today modern Slavic are the second biggest nation that does not mean they were at 400 BC
the writen that are found in Balkans and are in Thracian Language can not be explained by Slavic Language
neither by Greek neither another IE modern Language
THAT IS A PROOVE not an evidence
now still I do not understand what you are trying to prove,
That Slavs and Thracian are the same?
Then why until roman times and after they Used Greek Alphabet and After SLAVIC Devastasion to SOuTH they Change?
why Greek Alphabet for more than 1200 years was used by Thracians and suddenly they decide to change it?
and Bring a new one made in Moravia?
Thracians at 500 AD had 1200 years of using Greek Alphabet and 500 years of Roman-Latin Alphabet
they already accepted Christianity,
WHY THEY ASK FOR NEW ALPHABET 1200 yeas after? AND WHY THEY WERE BAPTISED since in Church chronicles Christianity existed in Balkans already for 500 years,
cause Slavic did not have alphabet (maybe they had Runic) and did not know about Christianity at that time
cause they came from North (Serbs) and East(Severi) and had with them a Huno-ugric tribe as ally (Bulgars etc)
just search how many ancient Thracian written we have and we can not explain them and how man Scythian? (maybe second is 0)
All efforts by Bulgarians Greeks Romanians Baltic etc give a small vocabullary about Thracian which is rejected when we find another,
So many Thracologists and yet we can not reconstruct their language,
cause they try the same, they find dew toponyms and words which might be and start a theory and when another one from another country brings new evidence the theory is rejected or drop,
a good example is the Persian God Methras which means a stone-earth god
in Greek a stone that we throw is μυδρος and the Thracian god was μηθρας
as you see it follows its own phonetic laws
Yes but Kallasha have the ancient ritual of Balkans and the same acts (the wolf the bear the satyrs or pagans the bride the priest the police man etc) the one that Greeks did it mainly from Christmans until Xanthos month (late february until 10 of march)
and Thracians did it at the Bakhus festival days (february to march)
the one that call as Slavic ones
remember Βακχος and Bog have connection but is not same Language,
( I don't know in case of dialect)
I wonder how Kallasha have the same rituals but not the same costumes with Slavs?
maybe cause these rituals were more ancient? lets say Makedonian (skiadion-hat)? Thracian?
Another prove or evidence is the how long are the proto words,
Slavic language has the tense to avoid vowel and uses mainly non vowels,
that is typical that comes from a colder climate than Balkans
If I speak with many vowels I lose warm air from my body,
if I speak with less vowels I keep warm inside of me,
that is why more southern languages use so many vowels and North so many non vowels sounds,
listen to an African and then listen to a North Russian, you realise what I mean,
Besides my basic arguement is that many are told as Proves are just evidence,
I mean that if I2 could be slavic but could also be Thracian,
now the time in History, the diversity laws etc will help us more to realize what is going on,
the more the searches the more the evidence the more we reach truth,
just consider that if I2a2 is from Central Europe and Germanic, then?
if I2a2 din is from ucraine then?
if I2a2 is local Balkanic from 1200 BC then?
many times I am troubled when use HG as a tool to search and not as tool to claim Nation purity etc
I learn that here in this forum.
thanks to the patience of the moderators
Hitler and Napoleon were E-V13
I do not deny that I2a2 might be Slavic and imported in 600 AD or Thracians or germanic, or earlier or younger
simply I put my argue so as the final result to be a clear prove and not an evidence, that doubts to be the little that can be.
the least is that if the word Slav existed in ancient times (before 1rst century) then surely many writers would have written about it.
yet we do no find that words neither as Nations neither as tribes etc until much after, only some toponyms mostly ending in -dava etc
I agree that wolf culture of Dacians passed to modern Romanians and Serbs
But i do not agree that it is imported by Slavs,
The Draco exist also in Greece in minor asia etc,
but exist in Russia in Poland etc ?
compare draco with νομοι Δρακοντα and δρακοσπιτα and virb δραττομαι- δραττω - δρω
surnames that connected with wolf do not mean something
Search Greeks
Αυτολυκος (ancient name famous thief)
Λυκαων
even in modern exist many
in aromani exist the luppis in many surnames
what does that mean?
is it a prove?
By toponyms and their meaning Greek Thracologist find that white in Thracian language was Πελεκος ορ πελεκας
simmilar word existed in minor asian Greek as Βελλεκος
so in Greek becomes Λευκος in Slavic Bjalo Bello etc
in western European languages becomes pale
another example
the Attic Greek for a water spring was φρεαρ and the tap is Κρηνις or κρουνος
then how come modern Greeks and especially the Kon/polis used the word βρυση
the answer comes from Hesychius
Makedonians call the Sping as Βρουαρ Vruar and Thracians as βρuα broussa or Vrousa or Vryasa
so that is why at the times of Justinian we first find the word νιπτηρας and βρυση
another from the Brygian language we know that water was neither Υδωρ neither Voda but Edu
Another is Thracian word for bull was βολινθρος a word that fits with Bulgarian Bol
Another is the word for major builder (architect) καλαφατης (compare Greek Καλος -Καλα Celtic or Latin je Fais which becomes fa or fat)
compare Greek κλινη (clinic after Greek bed) and Thracian word for bed which is κραββατος (κρεββατος) which fits!!!! with the riverbed in Baltic Languages
Compare Dacian Balaur , what it means and with which modern language we can explain it
word for Bread in Thracian is Bekos which fits well with Germanic baker-backwaren and Serbian pekara but does not fit with hleb or khleb or khliyab
As you connection of Thracians with modern Slavic is not correct at least in Linguistic, neither with another IE linguistic family,
if Thracian = Slavic or Slavic dialect then we could explain many of the written, yet there are inscriptions that cannot be explained,
so let me put in another way
Romanians Serbs etc have thracian DNA
but Thracians maybe had not Slavic DNA
so I am still waiting for Sparkey to be sure and claim that. as also new searches to be done
besides the second most numerous at that time could be a family of languages dialects surely not Celts cause Greeks names them and distinguish them from Thracian, but they could be para Germans or a middle one a missing link among east Germanic Goths and Balto-Slavic
Last edited by Yetos; 25-03-12 at 04:35.
Continue to threat me and I might sue the owner of this site for the fact he put wrong frequencies for I2A for Romania.
To make it short,romanians and serbs and croats did not came from anywhere here,please you continue so I will go to sue you also for trying to say that romanians and serbs are invaders.
I give you and other people posting here a friendly advice,stop negating the truth,romanians know very well that at least 20% of the romanian words are from proto-slavic,there are studies about this and so on.The popular costumes resemblance is a very good argument in an eventual trial.
You think you can just threat people how you like,well,I doubt.So you want to silence me,because you are moderator and you do not agree with what I tell.
Sure a language is classified also by phonology.
Oh so now I am not allowed to have an opinion,right.
I am not stoping anything,the connection was made before by other romanian scientists,who denied the forgery with romanians being latins.
There are more serious studies which shows even greater connections in gramatics of romanian,bulgarian,serbo-croatian and albanian.There are identical words in romanian and bulgarian (did not checked for serbian).
The first written document in romanian have the introduction written in slavonic and is written with cyrilic alphabet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neac%C8%99u%27s_letter
Romanian can be also very easy included in south slavic languages.
No thracians did not moved anywhere,there are plenty of evidences they did not moved from here.
If there was a migration of thracians,where are the arheological proofs of such a migration,since a migration leave traces.
No one did a red hair gene test to the people in Bulgaria,but if he will do I think the results will be pretty surprising.
To give a small hint,about 40% of the men from old montenegrins had red hair in the beards.
Also a lot of bulgarian men have a few threads of red hair in their beards,so is clear that a lot of bulgarian men carry red hair gene.
Is true that christianity made a lot of thracians and dacians to stop following some of the old customs.
There is not connection between thracians (slavs) +greeks which were living together with kallasha.
There are plenty of people who proved that thracians are same with slavs when is said they are 2nd as numbers after indians.
I am not trying to prove it,since is obvious.As I already written before,there are documets which are telling about vlachs living in Poland.But an even more stronger evidence,which is not taken into account are the hutsuls,which have over 50% I2a din and higher percentages of H of mt-dna.Which shows they are very old europeans (the very high percentage of H on mt-dna).
Hutsuls are living in Carpathians from Romania and in Carpathians from Ukraine.
They are speaking a slavic language,their popular costumes,music are same with romanian/serbian ones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutsuls
The ones from Romania ,also have "hora" dance which can also be found at serbians and at albanians and at romanians:
http://www.eliznik.org.uk/RomaniaHis...ity-hutsul.htm
http://sites.google.com/site/hutzul/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQBB7...eature=related
Look a little at their popular costumes.
These people are hutsuls from Bucovina,Romania.
I do not know what you are talking about,dacians did not knew how to write,they were not using any alphabet.
If they were very few between thracians writing some things,that does not means that thracians knew to write or that they were using greek alphabet.
Cyrilic alphabet was made so all people can use it,because it contained also letters for the diacritics.
Which diacritics very "strange" are exactly same in romanian as in other slavic languages.
That was not "slavic devastation" but the attack of free dacians (free south slavs) from where today Romania is and from the mountains,since dacians were staying in the mountains,waiting for the right moment to attack (call it dacian devastation).
Now dacians are called "slavs".
Since not long after that,the romanian-bulgarian empire appeared:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire
Sure dacians where allied with bulgars,which were an warrior tribe came from somewhere in north.
I do not have time to answer to everything really,because I think was enough told in the begining - that actually thracians were not using any alphabet,because they were not writing and if they are very few writings,made by some very learned thracians,that does not means "they were using greek alphabet" but it means that the one who made the writting knew greek alphabet :) .
Do you have any documents that are telling about a mass baptism of serbs as it is the case of Kievan Rus?
I doubt.
As for E-V13 is clearly of Balkan origin being greek and ilyrian:
http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.htm
Another thing there are greeks historians,who are the real greeks and "greeks" historians which are the "greeks" historians from Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire) when history started to be forged to serve as a tool for the agression wars of Eastern Roman Empire against other nations.
And calling someone a greek in Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine empire) was something like an insult,being equivalent with a dangerous heretic or something like that.
The Byzatine Empire citisens were not calling themselves anymore greeks but (rofl) romanoi or something like that .
Byzantine Empire was also called Romania (as my country is today wrongly called).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire
"The Byzantine Empire (or Byzantium) was the Eastern Roman Empire during the periods of Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages, centered on the capital of Constantinople. Known simply as the "Roman Empire" (Greek: Βασιλεία Ῥωμαίων, Basileia Rhōmaiōn) or Romania (Ῥωμανία) to its inhabitants and neighbours, it was the direct continuation of the Ancient Roman State and maintained Roman state traditions."
Romania and Serbia and Croatia did not led agression wars,Romania did once,in WW2 but they were brainwashed by the fanatic nazis to do this and one of arguments used was that "romanians are latins" "slavs are invaders and untermenschen thus they need to be exterminated,let us go attack Russia".
I do not really care what Y DNA had mr Hitler on paternal dna,he was educated in the country you know and had that language you know as maternal language.
He was not educated in Romania neither in some country from south-eastern Europe,neither had romanian as maternal language neither greek,neither albanian,neither serbo-croatian.
Trying to make a connection between Balkans and Hitler is just plain wrong.
I'm not threatening you. You're doing the threat thing all by yourself (see above), that is, threatening the owner of Eupedia (Maciamo).
... as well as apparently believing into massive academic conspiracy.
I'm done here.
Banned.
May you offer some sources, please?
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