How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

[sparkey]

May you offer some sources, please?

Not that I know exactly what zanipolo is referring to, but it's possible that he's noticing an L69 in a study other than the L69 that defines I2a1b1. It's a very volatile SNP, and even helps define IJK as L69.1(=G). It also occurs in R1b-L21 and others. It only defines I2a1b1 in its L69.2(=T) form.

[sparkey]

1) Well only I know is that Thracians are mentioned existed at about 1200 BC Troyan war?
is that so near or so far?

Right, that's a bit old for what we know about I2a-Din. I'd expect I2a-Din to be as old as the J2, R1b-ht35, etc. in the region, not younger, as it appears to be. So I guess Thracians to have had a plurality of J2 (but admit I know less about the non-I haplogroups in the region).

2) Thracians is not Thrace,
Thrace is an area named after Makedonians at epigoni times,
Before Thrace was Fyrom Serbia Bosnia Bulgaria Turkey Romania and above IStros (Donav) reaching Hungaria as also Kossovo which was considered Dardani an Illyro-thracian
and Getae - Thrace was Bulgaria Romania Moldova Ucraine

The core area of the Thracians is still south of where I2a-Din apparently expanded from, then... unless we're thinking that they expanded northward, took I2a-Din peoples into their population, and then expanded southward again, but I don't see historical attestation of the second part of that equation. I suppose it's not impossible that there was genetic expansion within an existing population, it just seems like a poorer fit to the data.

3 If the diversity gives I2a2 Din S primary in Central europe and Ucraine ,
Lands that also inhabited by Thracians

To be clear, the high diversity area of I2a-Din-S is Central Europe, but the high diversity area of I2a-Din-N and therefore I2a-Din as a whole is Ukraine... S doesn't really have significant representation in Ukraine.

But again, I don't see why high diversity areas should be considered less than launching points of I2a-Din... and Central Europe and Ukraine were on the periphery of Thracian expansion, right? So the fit is backwards.

4 I wonder which is more new The I Y-DNA in Greece and in minor Asia or the I2a2 DIN S
cause if the case of Agrinion Crete Cyprus and Kurds is later than I2a2 Din then surely I2a2 did enter with Slavic
if I2a2 Din is younger than the I Y-DNA islands in the above then surely is Slavic,
We can not expect I YDNA from Denmark to enter first in Greece Kurds and Cyprus and then the Northern parts of Balkans,
I mean which is the bottleneck or the matrix? from I2a2 Din exit the rest I Ydna in the above areas or not?

Of the populations you mention, I'm only particularly familiar with Cretans and Kurds. Kurds are data deficient and need more research... we only know the subclades of about 3 or 4 Haplogroup I Kurds, and they all seem to be primarily Central European type subclades (I2a2a/old I2b1, I1). Cretans are also somewhat data deficient, but we have an idea that their I2a-Din is low relative to mainland Greece and probably younger, and their other main clade is I2c-B-Z, which is actually probably even younger, and may have expanded within the Republic of Venice. I don't think either Kurds or Cretans have any particularly ancient I subclades that have been discovered so far.

1) is I2a2 Din earlier or later of the rest I YDNA in more southerm areas? (Greece Crete Cyprus Kurds) could it work as a matrix , a bottleneck to the others?

Personally, I think that Southeast Europe doesn't have ancient I in the same way that Central Europe and West Europe do. See the Paleolithic Remnants map and notice the dearth of subclades that have been shown to be ancient in the area.

2) I2a2 existed at the time 1200 BC? in the same areas?

It's doubtful that I2a-Din is even that old... likely, its coalescence age is younger, even if we find an outlier that pushes the TMRCA back.

[Yetos]

Right, that's a bit old for what we know about I2a-Din. I'd expect I2a-Din to be as old as the J2, R1b-ht35, etc. in the region, not younger, as it appears to be. So I guess Thracians to have had a plurality of J2 (but admit I know less about the non-I haplogroups in the region).



The core area of the Thracians is still south of where I2a-Din apparently expanded from, then... unless we're thinking that they expanded northward, took I2a-Din peoples into their population, and then expanded southward again, but I don't see historical attestation of the second part of that equation. I suppose it's not impossible that there was genetic expansion within an existing population, it just seems like a poorer fit to the data.



To be clear, the high diversity area of I2a-Din-S is Central Europe, but the high diversity area of I2a-Din-N and therefore I2a-Din as a whole is Ukraine... S doesn't really have significant representation in Ukraine.

But again, I don't see why high diversity areas should be considered less than launching points of I2a-Din... and Central Europe and Ukraine were on the periphery of Thracian expansion, right? So the fit is backwards.



Of the populations you mention, I'm only particularly familiar with Cretans and Kurds. Kurds are data deficient and need more research... we only know the subclades of about 3 or 4 Haplogroup I Kurds, and they all seem to be primarily Central European type subclades (I2a2a/old I2b1, I1). Cretans are also somewhat data deficient, but we have an idea that their I2a-Din is low relative to mainland Greece and probably younger, and their other main clade is I2c-B-Z, which is actually probably even younger, and may have expanded within the Republic of Venice. I don't think either Kurds or Cretans have any particularly ancient I subclades that have been discovered so far.



Personally, I think that Southeast Europe doesn't have ancient I in the same way that Central Europe and West Europe do. See the Paleolithic Remnants map and notice the dearth of subclades that have been shown to be ancient in the area.



It's doubtful that I2a-Din is even that old... likely, its coalescence age is younger, even if we find an outlier that pushes the TMRCA back.

So, after all the above text, we get the extract that I2a2 Din probably enter from central Europe with most possible or proper Historical known event the entrance of Serbs, right?
we get that extract mainly due to age (how old) and the diversity law, right?


my last question,
could all this I2a2 Din be a mutation that happened in Balkans from an older I?

[sparkey]

So, after all the above text, we get the extract that I2a2 Din probably enter from central Europe with most possible or proper Historical known event the entrance of Serbs, right?
we get that extract mainly due to age (how old) and the diversity law, right?

I think so, at least for I2a-Din-S, but I admit that it's not 100% known yet. Other possibilities (Illyrians, Dacians, Sarmatians, Thracians, some combination of those...) exist, they just seem to require odd expansion patterns that are possible, just unlikely. And I2a-Din-N is probably less certain than I2a-Din-S at the moment.

my last question,
could all this I2a2 Din be a mutation that happened in Balkans from an older I?

I doubt I2a-Din was founded in the Balkans, it probably expanded there later, due to the same diversity patterns I've mentioned before. Supporters of the Paleolithic continuity theory tend to disagree with me on this point, though.

[zanipolo]

May you offer some sources, please?

Roman/Western Roman Emperors from Dalmatia and Pannonia

---

Marcus Aurelius Claudius Gothicus (May 10, 213/214 - January, 270),
His origin is uncertain. Claudius was either from the Sirmium region (in Pannonia Inferior) or from Dardania (in Moesia Superior)


Marcus Aurelius Claudius Quintillus (d. 270) was brother of the Roman Emperor Claudius II, and became the Emperor himself in 270.


Lucius Domitius Aurelianus (September 9, 214–275)
Born to an obscure provincial family in Sirmium


Gaius Aurelius Valerius Diocletianus (245?–312?)
An Illyrian of low birth from the province of Dalmatia


Marcus Aurelius Carus (c. 230 - late July/early August, 283), Roman emperor (282-283), was born probably at Narbona (more correctly, Narona -- now the ruins at Vid, Croatia) in Illyria, but was educated at Rome.


Marcus Aurelius Carinus, Roman emperor, 283 - July, 285, was the elder son of the emperor Carus, on whose accession he was appointed governor of the western portion of the empire.


Marcus Aurelius Numerianus (d. November, 284) - son of the Roman emperor Carus and brother of the Roman Emperor Carinus.

[zanipolo]

Not that I know exactly what zanipolo is referring to, but it's possible that he's noticing an L69 in a study other than the L69 that defines I2a1b1. It's a very volatile SNP, and even helps define IJK as L69.1(=G). It also occurs in R1b-L21 and others. It only defines I2a1b1 in its L69.2(=T) form.

I did see I2a1b1 L69.2 somewhere in one of T.Robb links
I will keep looking

anyway , this is his latest from FEB 2012
http://www.goggo.com/terry/Haplogrou...R_Branches.pdf

[zanipolo]

I do not relate Thracians to I2a-din but mostly to originally R1a people on which E-V13 + J2 layer was superimposed later (when? with hellenic expansion or with roman expansion?) ... so original language and tribal name of Thracians was probably related to proto-Slavic people....

I2a-Din spread along Danube, so it was probably present in northern Thracians, such as Triballi...regarding attempts to equate Serbs with Triballians... i can accept Triballi being perhaps of Serian stock...hence, Serb or Serian is a race name, Triballians is one of tribe names that might correspond to Terbunions - Serb tribe that settled south east Herzegovina...
http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de administrando imperio&pg=PA163#v=onepage&q&f=false

word association again !!!.............very narrow of percentage accuracy to gather info.

In regards to Triballi, I agree they did not have I2a-DIn, but according to Roman historians, the dacia and getae ( thracian people ) north of the danube river could not be defended properly by the Romans against the Goths. They people where migrated into moesia and dardania and the Roamn frontier rested on the danube after that. Are the triballi which are thracian associated with another thracian people the Dacians?

[Gosh]

Not that I know exactly what zanipolo is referring to, but it's possible that he's noticing an L69 in a study other than the L69 that defines I2a1b1. It's a very volatile SNP, and even helps define IJK as L69.1(=G). It also occurs in R1b-L21 and others. It only defines I2a1b1 in its L69.2(=T) form.

I know that zanipolo can't offer such kind of data. Therefore I asked for sources. If we have that kind of data, we'd tell different story about I2a1-Din.

I use to came on this forum not because of a new knowledge but to see imagination of forum members ))))
There's so many crazy theories here to read )))

What to say when pooling results showing this kind of results? )))

I have to say that many people believe in newspaper's articles without to think about a problem wit its own head. Unfortunately, there are some very strange scientists (or "scientists") which intentionally spread wrong information among people. A typical case are the last two "works" from Serbia and Croatia which support theory of Paleolithic continuity without to offer some arguments which will explain their thesis.

[Gosh]

Roman/Western Roman Emperors from Dalmatia and Pannonia

---

O.K.
but...... where are the data about their haplogroups?

[zanipolo]

O.K.
but...... where are the data about their haplogroups?

I am confused, what data you after. I presented the new data from T.Robb in the recent thread.
Or my theory that I2a-Din was brought from central europe by the illyrians in the late bronze-age/early iron age or
http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/European_Haplogroup_locations_circa_5,000BC.jpg

or wiki stating it was from northeast italy actually trento, which i said was always more germanic ( austrian ) than Italian even if itlay owns the area now

[Gosh]

This map is only partially true. For exaple, the eldest MRCA I2a1 M26 are living in southern France, not in Italy.

Illyrians didn't bear I2a1 Din , that's for sure. Take a look on Nordtved's graphs and you'll understand why.

Illyrians were a mixture of J2, E1b-v13, R1b and G2a. A typical pre-Slavic Balkan mixture.

[how yes no 3]

This map is only partially true. For exaple, the eldest MRCA I2a1 M26 are living in southern France, not in Italy.

Illyrians didn't bear I2a1 Din , that's for sure. Take a look on Nordtved's graphs and you'll understand why.

Illyrians were a mixture of J2, E1b-v13, R1b and G2a. A typical pre-Slavic Balkan mixture.

I think not much G2a, instead they had some pre-Illyrian R1a from Pelasgians....

research shows that R1a is ancient old in the area.... we can assume that several waves of R1a did contribute to observed extreme diversity, but still the diversity much larger than elsewhere is likely to point out on ancient old settlement of R1a in Balkans... I think this is related to Pelasgians... that conclusion I had already introduced around 1 year ago on this forum, after comparing spread of R1a in Greece with data about Pelasgian settlements....

south Slavs have single common denominator - I2a-din.... R1a is in Albanians of FYRM significantly higher than in areas like Montenegro, and on roughly same level as in Serbia and FYRM Macedonians
again R1a in Greek Macedonia is much larger.....
only conclusion is that much of R1a was already on Balkan when south Slavic people arrived, while most of I2a-Din was not already there...

in my opinion Pelasgians and Thracians were originally dominantly R1a... i think that before arrival of E-V13 and J2 whole east Europe was R1a area... but that does not mean they were culturally same as proto-Slavic because this was much before Slavic language, and probably in times of proto-PIE language....

i think R1a was spread with Kurgan culture....
although it is ogood theory, I am not sure that PIE language was in fact spread by Kurgan culture...

concerning I2a-Din, pattern of I2a-Din spread along the Danube from Bohemia to Black sea and around it seems clear... the presence of haplogroup I in Asia (in Kurds, Sarbans, Sart, white Sart) seems to match the supposed movement of PIE speakers











around 1800 BC indo-Europeans reached India in a movement starting from Kurdish area...

around 1200 BC "sea peoples" bring down most middle east empires and threaten Egypt... their key stronghold can only be Kurdish area...one of them are called Sherdana and leave place name Serbonian bog in Egypt...

it is haplogroup I that spreads from Bohemia down the Danube around Black sea and deep into Asia....

Aryans = Serians?
no, there is no haplogroup I in India.... Indo-Arian settlements match J2....








perhaps originally Aryans = Syrians = Sumerians = J2...
Strabo says that both tribes of Cappadocians are white Syrians different from other Syrians by brighter skin, and he says that Syrian = Sumerian

note that Serica in north west China is reach in both J2 and I


perhaps Sumer was originally J2 (pay attention to elevated spread of J2 in area of Sumer)..those people later spread to north and part of them (white Syrians) has at some point incorporated some I2a people who were originating from Europe area around Black sea, area with milder climate, and had hence brighter skin...thus, J2 with some I2a gave white Syrians...

perhaps Sumerian empire could be responsible for spread of J2 and I2a further to east... to area where much later Pomponius Mella finds Serres between Scythians and Indians...




Cappadocia is J2 hotspot...
same as Syria

J2 is origin of names Syrian and white Syrian and Aryan....

I2a in Asia had tribal names such as Sherdana, Sarbans, Sart, Scordisci, Kurds ....

I2a in Asia came from Europe via Black sea
I2a in Balkans came from central Europe...question is with Serbs and Croats or before?
both... early ones with Scordisci and later one with Serbs.. unless those are same people...


Sumer was on other hand not PIE speaking, so the PIE language came from I2a people :)
hence the weird saying of Serbs "speak Serbian so that the whole world understands you"

imposing the language could have come only through superior military or culture... i place bets on military...it is around 2150BC that Gutians come down from Zagros mountains (where Kurds live) and take over Sumer and rule over it for 100 years... later Akkadians and than Elamites took over.... but Cappadokians (and perhaps some more east colonies) could have stayed under control of Gutians...giving white Syrians....and spreading PIE language in area of Serres - that stretched between Scythians and Indians.....PIE language reached Indians in 1800 BC

peoples name white Sart is perhaps not the same in origin as white Syrian
white Syrian meant whiter Syrians, while white Sart meant west Sart, same as white Serbs meant west Serbs......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_dynasty_of_Sumer

so could PIE people be Gutians and could this tribal name be same as Goths?

"letopis popa Dukljanina" (chronicle of priest Dukljanin" claims that south Slavs are just Goths...
in fact we know that Odoacer leader of Goths was half-Scirian and I have explained possible link Scirii- proto-Serbs, as Scirii are found in locations where we find I2a-Din south (near Baltic and in Bohemia/Bavaria)....Scirii/Hirri being paired in same way as Srbi/Hrvati.... Heruli (same as earlier Hirri in my opinion) disappearing from history on place where imediatelly after state of Hrvati appear...
origin of I2-din could geographically and genetically fit nicely in originally east germanic branch of people... but its just an idea... main dialect of Kurds is Sorani, part of it bares name Garmiani... to me that is same as Germani...

[Taranis]

I have moved the discussion about the Thracian language to here.

[zanipolo]

Right, that's a bit old for what we know about I2a-Din. I'd expect I2a-Din to be as old as the J2, R1b-ht35, etc. in the region, not younger, as it appears to be. So I guess Thracians to have had a plurality of J2 (but admit I know less about the non-I haplogroups in the region).



The core area of the Thracians is still south of where I2a-Din apparently expanded from, then... unless we're thinking that they expanded northward, took I2a-Din peoples into their population, and then expanded southward again, but I don't see historical attestation of the second part of that equation. I suppose it's not impossible that there was genetic expansion within an existing population, it just seems like a poorer fit to the data.



To be clear, the high diversity area of I2a-Din-S is Central Europe, but the high diversity area of I2a-Din-N and therefore I2a-Din as a whole is Ukraine... S doesn't really have significant representation in Ukraine.

KN noted that this marker I2a DIN-N was 2550 years and in the pripet marshes of Ukraine, trouble is that the russian genealogitis on this same maker find nothing older in the russian samples than 1830 years old and also they have no DYS19=14 croatian marker which is in croatia.

This high concentration of this marker can also be the celtic/illyric movement down the danube to the black sea.

It seems KN is partly correct.

As to I2a Din-S , well thats another story

people did migrate from west to east, before migrating east to west

[how yes no 3]

so could PIE people be Gutians and could this tribal name be same as Goths?

"letopis popa Dukljanina" (chronicle of priest Dukljanin") claims that south Slavs are just Goths...

in fact we know that Odoacer leader of Goths was half-Scirian and I have explained possible link Scirii- proto-Serbs, as Scirii are found in locations where we find I2a-Din south (near Baltic and in Bohemia/Bavaria)....

Scirii/Hirri being paired in same way as Srbi/Hrvati.... Heruli (same as earlier Hirri in my opinion) disappearing from history on place where imediatelly after state of Hrvati appear...

origin of I2-din could geographically and genetically fit nicely in originally east germanic branch of people... but its just an idea...

main dialect of Kurds is Sorani, part of it bares name Garmiani... to me that is same as Germani...

Pliny records Scirii and Hirri on Vistula among Venedi and Sarmatians !
hence in core area of early Slavs...

Jordanes puts Scirii among Alans (Sarmatians) and Procopius among Goths and Alans....

Sidonius enlists them in Attila's army...
2 recorded leaders of Scirii have Germanic names: Edica & Wolf

Grimm interprets historic sources concluding that if Scirii were not Gothic, they were connected to Goths in many ways..
http://books.google.nl/books?id=pIg9...=sciri&f=false xcvii

[zanipolo]

Pliny records Scirii and Hirri on Vistula among Venedi and Sarmatians !
hence in core area of early Slavs...

Jordanes puts Scirii among Alans (Sarmatians) and Procopius among Goths and Alans....

Sidonius enlists them in Attila's army...
2 recorded leaders of Scirii have Germanic names: Edica & Wolf

Grimm interprets historic sources concluding that if Scirii were not Gothic, they were connected to Goths in many ways..
http://books.google.nl/books?id=pIg9...=sciri&f=false xcvii

what are you trying to say?

did you read the link you provided?

if you notice pagina cxxvii ......he states the tribes that lived along the vistula, the sarmatis , ( commer) venedis, (commer), Scirii, (commer), hirri in no particular order, not like ptolemy which placed them on the map

[how yes no 3]

what are you trying to say?

did you read the link you provided?

if you notice pagina cxxvii ......he states the tribes that lived along the vistula, the sarmatis , ( commer) venedis, (commer), Scirii, (commer), hirri in no particular order, not like ptolemy which placed them on the map

Vistula is central area of early Slavs...



russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs who migrate from Danube area to Vistula when pressed by expanding Roman empire......

and Vistula is where following tribes dwell: Scirii and related Hirri, Sarmatians and Venedi....

Venedi could be forfathers of either Balts or west Slavs ...
note that west Slavs carry dominant R1a typical for Europe indicating extremely long presence in Europe...this R1a is ancient old in Serbia, which is the reason I relate west Slavs - Poles (or field/flatland people where slavic word 'polje' = field) with Pelasgians (again meaning field/flatland/sea people)via Pannonians....

an idea: Pan-onians could be race name of same origin as Ven-edi
having root word Pan/Ven with different transcription and endings depending on language that records them....

Sarmatians would be forfathers of east Slavs....

Scirii and Hirri would in such a scenario map to south Slavs...they would originally be I2a people, while Sarmatians and Venedi are originally R1a people....but with different ratios of R1a M458 and R1a* xM458
Sarmatians being more recent arrival from east and largely lacking M458 marker typical for Europe and ancient old in Balkan where Pelasgians dwellt...

[Yetos]

Vistula is central area of early Slavs...



russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs who migrate from Danube area to Vistula when pressed by expanding Roman empire......

and Vistula is where following tribes dwell: Scirii and related Hirri, Sarmatians and Venedi....

Venedi could be forfathers of either Balts or west Slavs ...
note that west Slavs carry dominant R1a typical for Europe indicating extremely long presence in Europe...this R1a is ancient old in Serbia, which is the reason I relate west Slavs - Poles (or field/flatland people where slavic word 'polje' = field) with Pelasgians (again meaning field/flatland/sea people)via Pannonians....

an idea: Pan-onians could be race name of same origin as Ven-edi
having root word Pan/Ven with different transcription and endings depending on language that records them....

Sarmatians would be forfathers of east Slavs....

Scirii and Hirri would in such a scenario map to south Slavs...they would originally be I2a people, while Sarmatians and Venedi are originally R1a people....but with different ratios of R1a M458 and R1a* xM458
Sarmatians being more recent arrival from east and largely lacking M458 marker typical for Europe and ancient old in Balkan where Pelasgians dwellt...

Nop
Herodotus describe them as culture that dwell in wooden tents and tarandos breeders,
geografical area is from Crimea -ucraine but their homeland is far North of the river,

the only reindeer Breeders we know are finns and saami Suomi, possible 'broken telephone' of Suomi to Sauromates

so when we speak about a clear Sarmates we speak about a North nation that is not goat Sheep or cattle breeders but reindeer,

the case of alliance of Scythians with Sarmates or Finno Ugric is another case, and that is what I believe as the creation Era of Skolotoi σκωλοτοι to Sclavini the starting of what is known today as Slavic,
Possible linguistic origin major Sythian +sarmatian.
that is my personla opinion, and I think is correct, if Serbs enter from bohemia to Balkans, and Severi from Dacia

[zanipolo]

Vistula is central area of early Slavs...



russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs who migrate from Danube area to Vistula when pressed by expanding Roman empire......

and Vistula is where following tribes dwell: Scirii and related Hirri, Sarmatians and Venedi....

Venedi could be forfathers of either Balts or west Slavs ...
note that west Slavs carry dominant R1a typical for Europe indicating extremely long presence in Europe...this R1a is ancient old in Serbia, which is the reason I relate west Slavs - Poles (or field/flatland people where slavic word 'polje' = field) with Pelasgians (again meaning field/flatland/sea people)via Pannonians....

an idea: Pan-onians could be race name of same origin as Ven-edi
having root word Pan/Ven with different transcription and endings depending on language that records them....

Sarmatians would be forfathers of east Slavs....

Scirii and Hirri would in such a scenario map to south Slavs...they would originally be I2a people, while Sarmatians and Venedi are originally R1a people....but with different ratios of R1a M458 and R1a* xM458
Sarmatians being more recent arrival from east and largely lacking M458 marker typical for Europe and ancient old in Balkan where Pelasgians dwellt...

who are you trying to fool with this map, it is more than 500 years after the book link you presented. Don't you see on the map that italy is gothic , does that not represent something completly different to what pliny wrote?

If you are trying to link the sarmatians with slavs before 600AD , I am afraid you are in dream land. The sarmatians is a name give to 4 tribes of which all are either eastern persian or northern turkic people.

Please read history on sarmatians in early times and do not start your history at the end of the western Roman empire times

[how yes no 3]

who are you trying to fool with this map, it is more than 500 years after the book link you presented. Don't you see on the map that italy is gothic , does that not represent something completly different to what pliny wrote?

If you are trying to link the sarmatians with slavs before 600AD , I am afraid you are in dream land. The sarmatians is a name give to 4 tribes of which all are either eastern persian or northern turkic people.

Please read history on sarmatians in early times and do not start your history at the end of the western Roman empire times

i see that causal reasoning is not your stronger side.... so let me help you understand why this idea makes sense (which does not mean its necessarily correct)

1) most of west and south Slavs have genetics (R1a- M458 and I2a-din) that indicates that their ancestors were in Europe much much before E-V13, J2 people and R1b people....with east Slavs whose R1a is of same type as the one in Nordic countries and parts of Asia its more difficult to prove this.. but from what we know about genetics we can be sure that at least core of people from whom west and south Slavs origin were in Europe in ancient times.. in fact R1a-M458 is clearly unprecedentedly ancient old in Serbia, which is why I relate Pelasgians (= field/flatland/sea people) with Poles (Poljaci = field/flatland people - Slavic "polje" = field) - this is further confirmed by south Slavs being distinguished from surrounding peoples by I2a-din and not by R1a, and from what I looked into a year ago also by elevated R1a in the areas where Pelasgians remained in ancient Greece...I2a-Din shows clear spread along Danube from Bohemia to Black sea

2) Russian primary chronicle states that Danubian Slavs have moved from Danube area to Vistula area when Roman empire (Vlakhs) entered their lands and started molesting them... among those who moved it explicitly mentions Serbs and Croats

3) Roman empire spread to Danube before or around 0AD

4) Pliny records around 50-79 AD that in Vistula area live Scirii and Hirri, Sarmati and Venedi...he records no one else, just those 4 tribes... hence among them are Danubian Slavs, Serbs and Croats


5) around 500 AD Slavic people are recorded on large territory from Black sea shores north of Carpathians all the way to Bohemia and east Germany.... as the map shows, area of Vltava is in the middle of that spread indicating that area of Vltava might indeed have been core area of early Slavs


and some bonus homework for you:

if for Roman writers later Slaveni are transcribed as Sclaveni
than Scirii/Scirians were in fact Sirians or Serians....
Hirri are easily same people as Heruli...

Serians are mentioned by Seneca (4 BC – 65 AD) as brave people known by daring to cross frozen Danube on bare feet - (hence they live in proximity of Danube), by rulling over scattered Scythians (east Europe => I2a-Din), by living unguarded among Sarmatians (there was tribe Serboi in Asian Sarmatia), by living in Serica (north of Tibet where there is still some haplogroup I and where people know as Sart and white Sart live)....

Scordisci live around Danube..they disappear from history when Roman empire reaches them...
they disappear or they are just further recorded under the same name under which Seneca records them around Danube and in east Europe and in Asia - Serians or in the way Roman historian would write it Scirian

now the link to the book given above shows that Scirii are also found in Bavaria/Bohemia, which is area from which white (west) Serbs come to Balkan according to recorded history...

Heruli on other hand disappear from history maps on place where state of white Croats appear a bit later..

it makes sense also genetically... I2a-Din South typical for Serbs and Croats seems to origin from central-north Europe - it is not found in Ukraine but is found in Germany....distantly related (but much much much closer than R1a) I2b is Germanic marker, I1 as well...while I2a1 is typical for Sardinians (similar tribal /race name)...

in addition there is medieval chronicle that claims how south Slavs are Goths which is not hard to imagine knowing that Odoacer was half-Sciriian and that Scirri were said to have been either Goths or related to them....

and there is a claim from archaeology that Serbs and Croats when settling ex-yugoslavia have different burial practices from other Slavic tribes....and also different among themselves...

[zanipolo]

i see that causal reasoning is not your stronger side.... so let me help you understand why this idea makes sense (which does not mean its necessarily correct)

1) most of west and south Slavs have genetics (R1a- M458 and I2a-din) that indicates that their ancestors were in Europe much much before E-V13, J2 people and R1b people....with east Slavs whose R1a is of same type as the one in Nordic countries and parts of Asia its more difficult to prove this.. but from what we know about genetics we can be sure that at least core of people from whom west and south Slavs origin were in Europe in ancient times.. in fact R1a-M458 is clearly unprecedentedly ancient old in Serbia, which is why I relate Pelasgians (= field/flatland/sea people) with Poles (Poljaci = field/flatland people - Slavic "polje" = field) - this is further confirmed by south Slavs being distinguished from surrounding peoples by I2a-din and not by R1a, and from what I looked into a year ago also by elevated R1a in the areas where Pelasgians remained in ancient Greece...I2a-Din shows clear spread along Danube from Bohemia to Black sea

2) Russian primary chronicle states that Danubian Slavs have moved from Danube area to Vistula area when Roman empire (Vlakhs) entered their lands and started molesting them... among those who moved it explicitly mentions Serbs and Croats

3) Roman empire spread to Danube before 0AD

4) Pliny records around 50-70 AD that in Vistula area live Scirii and Hirri, Sarmati and Venedi...he records no one else, just those 4 tribes... hence among them are Danubian Slavs, Serbs and Croats


5) around 500 AD Slavic people are recorded on large territory from Black sea shores north of Carpathians all the way to Bohemia and east Germany.... as the map shows, area of Vltava is in the middle of that spread indicating that area of Vltava might indeed have been core area of early Slavs


and some bonus homework for you:if for Roman writers later Slaveni are transcribed as Sclaveni
than Scirii/Scirians were in fact Sirians or Serians....
Hirri are easily same people as Heruli but recorded in different times

Serians are mentioned by Seneca as living along Danube in Europe and in various areas of Asia and also rulling over scattered Scythians....

Scordisci live around Danube..they disappear from history when Roman empire reaches them...
they disappear or they are just recorded under the same name under which Seneca records them around Danube and in east Europe and in Asia - Serians or in the way Roman historian would write it Scirian

now the link to the book given above shows that Scirii are alos find in Bavaria/Bohemia, which is area from which Serbs come to Balkan according to recorded history...

Heruli on other hand disappear from history maps on place where state of white Croats appear a bit later..

Your biggest fault you have is to continuosly assume that what is now was in the bronze and iron ages. your map should never have been placed on the forum because it does not represent pliny's times but the period around 500-600AD , that 500 years difference. ........understand 500 years.

the sarmatians at the time of pliny where eastern persian people, actually depends on which sarmatians.
Sarmatae is in origin probably just one of several tribal names of the Sarmatians which came to be applied to the entire group as an exonym in Greco-Roman ethnography. Strabo in the 1st century names as the main tribes of the Sarmatians the Iazyges, the Roxolani, the Aorsi and the Siraces.

the roxolani where near the black sea, iazyges, next to them, so the "vistula" sarmatians where the Aorsi (alans) or Siraces.
the alans where from ossetia and the Siraces from the caucasus mountains regionSlavic_Culture_Spread.jpg

map is original slavs, who can base their true homeland around modern Kiev.

Danubian slavs? ....thats a dream, you need to say the thracian dacians or Getaes.

I already noted that russian geneologists have ruled out one marker of the I2a-Din which is in the balkans but not in the ukraine. and there marker of I2a-Din emerged in ukraine only in the year 250AD. Clearly a date when the scirii who had already migrated from eastern germany to the danube basin fought with the celts against the sarmatians ( roxolani )


the origins of the south slavs are as follows from their own scholars
Slovenians = always lived in the area a mix of illyric, celtic and venetic people
serbians = thracians
croatians = persians
bosnians = dardanians who migrated from anatolia
Bulgarians = turkic people

These tribes in the balkans learned slavic by firstly the turkic bulgars who learned it and then by severians from eastern ukraine who moved as far south as thessally in 600AD.
the only "true" slavs who came from the map included where the Poles who originated in eastern Kiev.
this theory that I2a-din came from slavs is truly false. Because I believe by facts and logic that it originated in central europe more than 700 years before the slavs entered europe ( as in eastern poland to moldovia )

EDIT - you need to get your hands on this book, which updates every 20 years and basically notes all ancient historians and concludes what they where trying to say

Researches Into the Physical History of Mankind: Ethnography of Europe. 3d ...
By James Cowles Prichard

[how yes no 3]

Your biggest fault you have is to continuosly assume that what is now was in the bronze and iron ages. your map should never have been placed on the forum because it does not represent pliny's times but the period around 500-600AD , that 500 years difference. ........understand 500 years.

to be able to understand my point...
you need to know geography and relevance of natural obstacles in wars in those times...

there are people living around Danube, when pushed north they can only settle behind next natural obstacle - to area north of Carpathians, to Vltava area... (1)

which is exactly what Russian primary chronicle claims...(2)

Slavs in 500 AD didnot become so populous over night...it takes many many generations for tribes to get to large numbers....hence they were in years before in area between their west most (east Germany and Bohemia) and east most (Black sea) spread... mid of that area is Vltava which fits well with (1) and (2)


your argument about 500 years may hold for small nations like your Albanians... but around 500AD we have numerous Slavic people settled in enormously large area between Black sea and east Germany.... that doesnot happen over night... and for big part of them their genetics shows European ancestry for thousands of years... they didnot suddenly come to area from Black sea to east Germany from anywhere, they were clearly somewhere there for hundreds of years before... and Vltava is in center of that area... so why would not we believe in Russian primary chronicle stating that Danubian Slavs have moved from Danube to Vltava when pressed by spreading Roman empire

the origins of the south slavs are as follows from their own scholars
Slovenians = always lived in the area a mix of illyric, celtic and venetic people
serbians = thracians
croatians = persians
bosnians = dardanians who migrated from anatolia

i think you read lot of quasi-history...
no real historians claim this...

[zanipolo]

to be able to understand my point...
you need to know geography and relevance of natural obstacles in wars in those times...

there are people living around Danube, when pushed north they can only settle behind next natural obstacle - to area north of Carpathians, to Vltava area... (1)

which is exactly what Russian primary chronicle claims...(2)

Slavs in 500 AD didnot become so populous over night...it takes many many generations for tribes to get to large numbers....hence they were in years before in area between their west most (east Germany and Bohemia) and east most (Black sea) spread... mid of that area is Vltava which fits well with (1) and (2)


your argument about 500 years may hold for small nations like your Albanians... but around 500AD we have numerous Slavic people settled in enormously large area between Black sea and east Germany.... that doesnot happen over night... and for big part of them their genetics shows European ancestry for thousands of years... they didnot suddenly come to area from Black sea to east Germany from anywhere, they were clearly there for hundreds of years before... and Vltava is in center of that area... so why would not we believe in Russian primary chronicle stating that Danubian Slavs have moved from Danube to Vltava when pressed by spreading Roman empire


i think you read lot of quasi-history...
no real historians claim this...

the thread is about I2a-din entering the balkans, this is as per KN 2550 years old which equals around 500BC , there was no slavs in the balkans 500BC so why do you carry on about this slavic issue.........just start another thread for what you want to discuss

[how yes no 3]

the thread is about I2a-din entering the balkans, this is as per KN 2550 years old which equals around 500BC , there was no slavs in the balkans 500BC so why do you carry on about this slavic issue.........just start another thread for what you want to discuss

??? do you read what you write?

do you understand that a group of people living in some area and having most recent common ancestor estimated to have lived 2500 years ago doesnot imply that the common ancestor also lived in that area?

how difficult is that to understand?

[Taranis]

i see that causal reasoning is not your stronger side.... so let me help you understand why this idea makes sense (which does not mean its necessarily correct).

how yes no, I'm giving you the same advice that I have given to a number of other people: stop spreading your own agenda-driven revisionist fantasies here on Eupedia.

I don't want to go into detail, but: the idea that the original homeland of the Slavs was in modern-day Czech Republic is something complete bare of any evidence, especially because we have multiple historic sources that tell us consistently that the situation was very different: Strabo's Geography (book 7, chapter 1.3 and 1.5 - and also chapter 2.2) and Ptolemy's Geography (book 2, chapter 10), as well as Tacitus' Germania (chapter 28 and chapter 43). By the time the Romans reached the Danube, the Germanic Marcomanni occupied Bohemia. These, in turn, had conquered it in the 1st century BC from the Celtic Boii. Knowing from your past activities on this forum, you will probably argue that the Boii were actually Slavic, but at that point I would like to remind you that the Boii were one of the Celtic tribes that invaded northern Italy, occupying the city that was known to the Romans as "Bononia" (modern Bologna). For reference, check out Livy, "Ab Urbe Condita" - book 5, chapter 34 and 35. There's no evidence of the Slavs in Central Europe before the Migration Period, and there's certainly no evidence of Slavic presence in Italy in Antiquity!

Trying to link the Slavs with the Sea Peoples or the "Pelasgians" (whoever these were) and attempting to draw a line of continuity into the Paleolithic is something where we're firmly in the realm of fantasy. Likewise, your attempts to link vaguely similar-sounding names (without any sort of regularity) with each other, and linking them with Y-Haplogroups has also no basis of any kind in facts.

Another aspect that I would like to bring up are the Sardinians. Sardinians are mostly G2a (a Neolithic Haplogroup), and I2a1a (I2a-M26). This is a different subclade from the one found on the Balkans and in eastern Europe (I2a1b), and the common ancestor of these two Haplogroups was some time in Neolithic or even Mesolithic times. Additionally, I2a-M26 is nowhere found on the Balkans, but instead has ties with western Europe (in particular the Basque country and Catalonia). In any case, there is no link between Sardinia and the Balkans / Eastern Europe. It's possible that the ancient Sardinians were one of the Sea Peoples (the ones called "Sherden" or "Sherdana" in the Egyptian sources), but this too is disputed.

Getting back on the original topic of the thread and the poll:

My opinion is that both the Paleolithic and the Slavic option apply: I2a-din is a surviving Paleo/Mesolithic Haplogroup that happened to survive through the Neolithic and Bronze Age, and in my opinion most probably got dispersed as the result of a founder effect during the Slavic migrations.