How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

[sparkey]

My opinion is that both the Paleolithic and the Slavic option apply: I2a-din is a surviving Paleo/Mesolithic Haplogroup that happened to survive through the Neolithic and Bronze Age, and in my opinion most probably got dispersed as the result of a founder effect during the Slavic migrations.

Do you think I2a-Din is a surviving Paleo/Mesolithic Haplogroup from the Balkans in particular, though? Or just Paleo/Mesolithic in Europe as a whole? Because if it's just Paleo/Mesolithic in Europe outside of the Balkans, then the answer to "How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?" seems to be "The Slavs," rather than a combination of two answers, don't you think?

[Taranis]

Do you think I2a-Din is a surviving Paleo/Mesolithic Haplogroup from the Balkans in particular, though? Or just Paleo/Mesolithic in Europe as a whole? Because if it's just Paleo/Mesolithic in Europe outside of the Balkans, then the answer to "How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?" seems to be "The Slavs," rather than a combination of two answers, don't you think?

I was more thinking along the lines of the latter, that is Paleo- or Mesolithic in the European context. And yes, you're right, in that context "The Slavs" alone is probably more appropriate.

[Gosh]

I think not much G2a, instead they had some pre-Illyrian R1a from Pelasgians....

research shows that R1a is ancient old in the area.... we can assume that several waves of R1a did contribute to observed extreme diversity, but still the diversity much larger than elsewhere is likely to point out on ancient old settlement of R1a in Balkans... I think this is related to Pelasgians... that conclusion I had already introduced around 1 year ago on this forum, after comparing spread of R1a in Greece with data about Pelasgian settlements....

Which studies shows that high divesrsity in Balkans for R1a? As I know only in the study of M. Pericic from 2005 we have some R1a DYS392=13 in that region. Can you show another study which shows the same? The resto of R1a are typically Slavic.

south Slavs have single common denominator - I2a-din.... R1a is in Albanians of FYRM significantly higher than in areas like Montenegro, and on roughly same level as in Serbia and FYRM Macedonians
again R1a in Greek Macedonia is much larger.....
only conclusion is that much of R1a was already on Balkan when south Slavic people arrived, while most of I2a-Din was not already there...

Greece was attacked by Avars together with some Slavic tribes. That's the reason why we have higher level of R1a in Macedonia (Greece). After that, Bulgarians took control under some parts of Albania and Greece.

i think R1a was spread with Kurgan culture....
although it is ogood theory, I am not sure that PIE language was in fact spread by Kurgan culture...

It is opposite from the results which we know. Take a look on the R1a tree and you'll be able to understand everything.

I2a in Asia had tribal names such as Sherdana, Sarbans, Sart, Scordisci, Kurds ....

Where we can see that data?

[Gosh]

KN noted that this marker I2a DIN-N was 2550 years and in the pripet marshes of Ukraine, trouble is that the russian genealogitis on this same maker find nothing older in the russian samples than 1830 years old and also they have no DYS19=14 croatian marker which is in croatia.

Why Russians have to have that DYS19=14?

As the first, it is only 600 y.o.
As the 2nd, it doesn't exist even in the nearest regions to Dalmatia.
As the 3rd, it is another one fact that I2a in Balkans aren't a result of a Paleolithic continuity.

[zanipolo]

I was more thinking along the lines of the latter, that is Paleo- or Mesolithic in the European context. And yes, you're right, in that context "The Slavs" alone is probably more appropriate.

I initially thought it wa spurely the illyrians, but further look at the scenarion, it was celtic/illyric migration from central europe( danube). the celts did get as far as greece and the scordisci where gaulish celts, mix this with "northern" illyrians and we get the timeframe that KN states.
Also the celtic movements along the danube to the black sea would have seen a celtic settlement there, hence moravian area. This danube delta area, let to the roman movement of thracian ( dacian and getae) from norht of the danube to moesia and beyond in the year beginning in 100AD

I wave the slavic idea due to its lateness of time, russian studies and the "missing" knowledge of what HG the illyrians had in the iron age.

[sparkey]

I initially thought it wa spurely the illyrians, but further look at the scenarion, it was celtic/illyric migration from central europe( danube). the celts did get as far as greece and the scordisci where gaulish celts, mix this with "northern" illyrians and we get the timeframe that KN states.
Also the celtic movements along the danube to the black sea would have seen a celtic settlement there, hence moravian area. This danube delta area, let to the roman movement of thracian ( dacian and getae) from norht of the danube to moesia and beyond in the year beginning in 100AD

I wave the slavic idea due to its lateness of time, russian studies and the "missing" knowledge of what HG the illyrians had in the iron age.

I notice the pattern you're suggesting for I2a-Din to in fact be a likely scenario for the initial spread of I2c-B. It reaches into the Balkans and apparently expanded into Asia and within the later Republic of Venice, giving it a very Eastern spread for a "Celtic" marker. But there are a few things different about I2a-Din in comparison to I2c-B. For one, I2a-Din is totally lacking in Western Europe, whereas we have a few older I2c-B outliers in Western Europe, indicative of it being spread those places by Celtic peoples. Also, I2a-Din reaches peak frequency west of its peak diversity, indicating a westward spread... but it's the opposite for I2c-B, and for the Celts. Finally, I2a-Din-S's expansion is apparently younger than the eastward spread of the Celts, whereas it fits OK with I2c-B.

[zanipolo]

I notice the pattern you're suggesting for I2a-Din to in fact be a likely scenario for the initial spread of I2c-B. It reaches into the Balkans and apparently expanded into Asia and within the later Republic of Venice, giving it a very Eastern spread for a "Celtic" marker. But there are a few things different about I2a-Din in comparison to I2c-B. For one, I2a-Din is totally lacking in Western Europe, whereas we have a few older I2c-B outliers in Western Europe, indicative of it being spread those places by Celtic peoples. Also, I2a-Din reaches peak frequency west of its peak diversity, indicating a westward spread... but it's the opposite for I2c-B, and for the Celts. Finally, I2a-Din-S's expansion is apparently younger than the eastward spread of the Celts, whereas it fits OK with I2c-B.

are you referring to this below

I2c - L596, L597 is a relatively recent discovery for those previously labelled I2*. The group within it labelledB (A) in Family Tree DNA I2* Haplogroup Project results is particularly interesting for its distribution around the Black Sea, including Armenia. It seems likely that the I2* in Armenians reported in a recent paper¹³ is actually I2c. Several Indo-European languages seem to have arisen on the western shores of the Black Sea, but eventually spread into Anatolia. Armenian made a further move from central Anatolia to Armenia. (See Near Eastern Neolithic: Languages and Y-DNA.)

OR
L473 ?

[zanipolo]

Why Russians have to have that DYS19=14?

As the first, it is only 600 y.o.

where is your data for this, thats its only 600 y.o

[zanipolo]

I notice the pattern you're suggesting for I2a-Din to in fact be a likely scenario for the initial spread of I2c-B. It reaches into the Balkans and apparently expanded into Asia and within the later Republic of Venice, giving it a very Eastern spread for a "Celtic" marker. But there are a few things different about I2a-Din in comparison to I2c-B. For one, I2a-Din is totally lacking in Western Europe, whereas we have a few older I2c-B outliers in Western Europe, indicative of it being spread those places by Celtic peoples. Also, I2a-Din reaches peak frequency west of its peak diversity, indicating a westward spread... but it's the opposite for I2c-B, and for the Celts. Finally, I2a-Din-S's expansion is apparently younger than the eastward spread of the Celts, whereas it fits OK with I2c-B.

the only reason it expanded within the republic of venice was due to the fact that venice had an armenian quarter from the 14th century as well as greek, dalmatian, german, croat sections.

lets not come to the conclusions that the celts had only one HG

[Gosh]

where is your data for this, thats its only 600 y.o

Check KN writings on Bresnan.net site
Moreover, that Dalmatian DYS19=14 was brought to Dalmatia from Bosnia.

BTW, do you really think that some I2a-Din DYS19=14 is elder than DYS19=16, for example?

[sparkey]

the only reason it expanded within the republic of venice was due to the fact that venice had an armenian quarter from the 14th century as well as greek, dalmatian, german, croat sections.

I suppose it's possible that you're right here, considering that there is some overlap between the "Venetian" type and the "Armenian" type of I2c-B, but I suspect not at the moment, since both are younger than the early "Celtic" branches, and my theory suggests that there ought to be overlap, anyway.

lets not come to the conclusions that the celts had only one HG

I don't think that they only had one haplogroup, I just think that while I2c-B may fit the pattern you're describing, I2a-Din apparently doesn't. FWIW, I also think the Celts had I2a2b and others.

[MOESAN]

the only reason it expanded within the republic of venice was due to the fact that venice had an armenian quarter from the 14th century as well as greek, dalmatian, german, croat sections.

lets not come to the conclusions that the celts had only one HG

I agree, but only partially : sure, Celts carried more than an HG but Y-I no more than Y-G2 ever was an important part of their demography and movements - their basis was and stays western Y-R1b I believe- so even if they carried some Y-I2a1b (as some Y-I2a2) it cannot explain the high levels of this HG in North Balkans -

[how yes no 3]

Which studies shows that high divesrsity in Balkans for R1a? As I know only in the study of M. Pericic from 2005 we have some R1a DYS392=13 in that region. Can you show another study which shows the same? The resto of R1a are typically Slavic.

High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia
Maria Regueiro, Luis Rivera, Tatjana Damnjanovic, Ljiljana Lukovic, Jelena Milasin, Rene J. Herrera


paper estimates that R1a-M458 is in Serbia 14kya old, while in other Slavic areas (R1a-M458 is Slavic only marker and rare outside of europe) it is 11kya...this means R1a-M458 must have spread to Poland from Balkan... this could have been in times of Pelasgians or perhaps before...

R1a1a*(xM458) is oldest in Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers in India and is there 14kya old, while in Serbia it is 11kya....

we do not know what was the language of R1a-M458 people (dominant marker in Poles) but we can only assume that they are in Europe last 14kya, and originally on Balkan....

Pelasgi(ans) are good guess due to same key word used for tribal name
polje = field => Poljaci
Pelagos = field, flatland, sea (probably loan word from Pelasgian language to Greek) => Pelazgi

Julius Pokorny derives Pelasgoi from *pelag-skoi (Flachlandbewohner, or "flatland-inhabitants"); specifically, Bewohner der thessalischen Ebene ("Inhabitants of the Thessalian plain").^[9] He details a previous derivation, which appears in English at least as early as William Gladstone's Studies on Homer and the Homeric Age.^[10] If the Pelasgians were not Indo-Europeans, the name in this derivation must have been assigned by the Hellenes.
The ancient Greek word for "sea", pelagos, comes from the same root, *plāk-, as the Doric word plagos, "side" (which is flat), appearing in *pelag-skoi. Ernest Klein therefore simply interprets the same reconstructed form as "the sea men", where the sea is the flat.^[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

those are pretty strong indications that west Slavs origin from ancient Balkan people very likely from Pelasgians.....I do not make any claim about languages as languages can change fast as we know on case of latin spoken originally only in rome and its derivatives spread fast to big chunk of Europe and to latin America, and from celtic languages disappearing from vast area in short time... looking history through language only is unreliable... it works only for quite recent and already known history...

i will add that only extremely biased people with strong anti-slavic agenda can apriori discard all these thoughts above as rubish and threaten with ban to people who dare to think about it...
i thought in 21 century in europe I will not need to fight for freedom to say what i think.....

Greece was attacked by Avars together with some Slavic tribes. That's the reason why we have higher level of R1a in Macedonia (Greece). After that, Bulgarians took control under some parts of Albania and Greece.

there are still avars in caucasus... not sure anymore, but as far as I remember they were J2...

It is opposite from the results which we know. Take a look on the R1a tree and you'll be able to understand everything.

what is opposite? that R1a were associated with Kurgan? that r1a was associated with PIE? that PIE was spread by Kurgan culture?

Where we can see that data?

in my posts :)

data comes from someone's effort, alike to what Maciamo do on this site, to collect published data for Asia and make maps of haplogroups...
https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/

I have paid attention to map for haplogroup I (my guess is that it is mostly I2a2 as in Asia it is usually I2a2) and determined that it has hotspots that exactly match spread of Pasthun Sarbans, and also spread in Serica north of Tibet, and hotspot in Kyrgizstan/Uzbekistan where Sart people live...e.g. around this place http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margelan which is place where white Sart people live and place that has ancient tradition of silk production indicating origin from Serica...

regarding Kurds, their tribal name I relate to Sherdana, because after studying description of conquest of sea people it was clear that they were northerners, that majority of army was going via land, and that it was settlement wave with woman and children, that judging by order of conquest preserved in historic record, they did make cut from Black sea to south of Asia minor and than to Syria...

all this suggests key settlement exactly in Kurdish area which is strategic bridge between Black sea and Syria....

furthermore Kurds have significant European genetics (R1a+I2a) of rather recent origin.... Kurds have tribal name alike to Sherdana...
note that Sherdana give name Serbonian bog in Egypt...

so idea is that I2a people carried with themselves tribal name recorded in variants Sherd/Sard/Serd/Serb/Kurd/Scord/Sart/Ser... depending on transcriptions of writers and ending due to being classified in this or that culture,,,
I do not know what language those tribes spoke... but I do notice that pattern of haplogroup I in Asia does match supposed spread of PIE people from homeland that in fact matches Kurdish areas....

regardless of language,

I go step further and suggest that Sherdana are no other than early wave of Scordisci along Danube to Black sea... . Scordisci give name Scardus mountain (Shar Dag in turkish) in south Serbia....reason I suggest this is that Scordisci have for long time dwelled along Danube.....and that it is evident that, apart from Hercegovina, which is initial settlement of Serbs and Croats, I2a-Din reaches maximum in areas along Danube with some of the hotspots in end of that area in Ukraine...and on start of the area in Bohemia...I2a-Din was in my opinion related to Danube from ancient times...there we again have issue with Seneca relating Serians to Danube...as people who dare to cross frozen Danube on bare foot...Serians are same as Serres who live in Serica which is Asia north of Tibet (which is where Sart and white(west) Sart people now live) and in arc from there to India (this arc is clearly visible in haplogroup I map from site above and it matches arc shaped spread of Pastun Sarbans with arc making knee on exactly same place in Sarbans and haplogroup I....

Serians is same tribal name as Scirians (Sciri) so it is a question whether those were again same people...if they were it is a clue that Scirii-Heruli might have been forefathers of Serbs and Croats.... again, I will not speculate about what could have been their original language in that case...I would note only that Scirii are by some authors claimed to be Alans/Sarmatians

[zanipolo]

paper estimates that R1a-M458 is in Serbia 14kya old, while in other Slavic areas (R1a-M458 is Slavic only marker and rare outside of europe) it is 11kya...this means R1a-M458 must have spread to Poland from Balkan... this could have been in times of Pelasgians or perhaps before...

so, we established that marker R1a-M458 is a thracian marker, thanks for info!

those are pretty strong indications that west Slavs origin from ancient Balkan people very likely from Pelasgians.....I do not make any claim about languages as languages can change fast as we know on case of latin spoken originally only in rome and its derivatives spread fast to big chunk of Europe and to latin America, and from celtic languages disappearing from vast area in short time... looking history through language only is unreliable... it works only for quite recent and already known history...

I seen many greek maps where they noted the thracians lived up to the baltic sea, but I cannot read greek.

i will add that only extremely biased people with strong anti-slavic agenda can apriori discard all these thoughts above as rubish and threaten with ban to people who dare to think about it...
i thought in 21 century in europe I will not need to fight for freedom to say what i think.....

you are wrong, there is no anti-slavic , there is only pro-slavic people here who assume that since you speak a slavic language now, and living in a area, then that area was always slavic and the previous owners of this area did not exist.
We might as well say we originated from England because we speak english

furthermore Kurds have significant European genetics (R1a+I2a) of rather recent origin.... Kurds have tribal name alike to Sherdana...
note that Sherdana give name Serbonian bog in Egypt...

could be only roman remaining outposts as the Romans fought the pathians there for a very long time.
similar to I- illyric markers in Britain.

I go step further and suggest that Sherdana are no other than early wave of Scordisci along Danube to Black sea... . Scordisci give name Scardus mountain (Shar Dag in turkish) in south Serbia....reason I suggest this is that Scordisci have for long time dwelled along Danube.....and that it is evident that, apart from Hercegovina, which is initial settlement of Serbs and Croats, I2a-Din reaches maximum in areas along Danube with some of the hotspots in end of that area in Ukraine...and on start of the area in Bohemia...I2a-Din was in my opinion related to Danube from ancient times...there we again have issue with Seneca relating Serians to Danube...as people who dare to cross frozen Danube on bare foot...Serians are same as Serres who live in Serica which is Asia north of Tibet (which is where Sart and white(west) Sart people now live) and in arc from there to India (this arc is clearly visible in haplogroup I map from site above and it matches arc shaped spread of Pastun Sarbans with arc making knee on exactly same place in Sarbans and haplogroup I....

Scordisci = gaulish celt people who took with them the remaining boii, tectosages and taurisci people.
Strabo says this mix of people where known as galatae

Serians is same tribal name as Scirians (Sciri) so it is a question whether those were again same people...if they were it is a clue that Scirii-Heruli might have been forefathers of Serbs and Croats.... again, I will not speculate about what could have been their original language in that case...I would note only that Scirii are by some authors claimed to be Alans/Sarmatians

there is a serdi tribe SE of triballi thracian people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tracian_state.png

[Yetos]

we do not know what was the language of R1a-M458 people (dominant marker in Poles) but we can only assume that they are in Europe last 14kya, and originally on Balkan....

Pelasgi(ans) are good guess due to same key word used for tribal name
polje = field => Poljaci
Pelagos = field, flatland, sea (probably loan word from Pelasgian language to Greek) => Pelazgi

those are pretty strong indications that west Slavs origin from ancient Balkan people very likely from Pelasgians.....I do not make any claim about languages as languages can change fast as we know on case of latin spoken originally only in rome and its derivatives spread fast to big chunk of Europe and to latin America, and from celtic languages disappearing from vast area in short time... looking history through language only is unreliable... it works only for quite recent and already known history...
i will add that only extremely biased people with strong anti-slavic agenda can apriori discard all these thoughts above as rubish and threaten with ban to people who dare to think about it...
i thought in 21 century in europe I will not need to fight for freedom to say what i think.....

there are still avars in caucasus... not sure anymore, but as far as I remember they were J2...
what is opposite? that R1a were associated with Kurgan? that r1a was associated with PIE? that PIE was spread by Kurgan culture?
in my posts :)
data comes from someone's effort, alike to what Maciamo do on this site, to collect published data for Asia and make maps of haplogroups...
https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/
I have paid attention to map for haplogroup I (my guess is that it is mostly I2a2 as in Asia it is usually I2a2) and determined that it has hotspots that exactly match spread of Pasthun Sarbans, and also spread in Serica north of Tibet, and hotspot in Kyrgizstan/Uzbekistan where Sart people live...e.g. around this place http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margelan which is place where white Sart people live and place that has ancient tradition of silk production indicating origin from Serica...
regarding Kurds, their tribal name I relate to Sherdana, because after studying description of conquest of sea people it was clear that they were northerners, that majority of army was going via land, and that it was settlement wave with woman and children, that judging by order of conquest preserved in historic record, they did make cut from Black sea to south of Asia minor and than to Syria...

all this suggests key settlement exactly in Kurdish area which is strategic bridge between Black sea and Syria....

furthermore Kurds have significant European genetics (R1a+I2a) of rather recent origin.... Kurds have tribal name alike to Sherdana...
note that Sherdana give name Serbonian bog in Egypt...

so idea is that I2a people carried with themselves tribal name recorded in variants Sherd/Sard/Serd/Serb/Kurd/Scord/Sart/Ser... depending on transcriptions of writers and ending due to being classified in this or that culture,,,
I do not know what language those tribes spoke... but I do notice that pattern of haplogroup I in Asia does match supposed spread of PIE people from homeland that in fact matches Kurdish areas....

regardless of language,

I go step further and suggest that Sherdana are no other than early wave of Scordisci along Danube to Black sea... . Scordisci give name Scardus mountain (Shar Dag in turkish) in south Serbia....reason I suggest this is that Scordisci have for long time dwelled along Danube.....and that it is evident that, apart from Hercegovina, which is initial settlement of Serbs and Croats, I2a-Din reaches maximum in areas along Danube with some of the hotspots in end of that area in Ukraine...and on start of the area in Bohemia...I2a-Din was in my opinion related to Danube from ancient times...there we again have issue with Seneca relating Serians to Danube...as people who dare to cross frozen Danube on bare foot...Serians are same as Serres who live in Serica which is Asia north of Tibet (which is where Sart and white(west) Sart people now live) and in arc from there to India (this arc is clearly visible in haplogroup I map from site above and it matches arc shaped spread of Pastun Sarbans with arc making knee on exactly same place in Sarbans and haplogroup I....

Serians is same tribal name as Scirians (Sciri) so it is a question whether those were again same people...if they were it is a clue that Scirii-Heruli might have been forefathers of Serbs and Croats.... again, I will not speculate about what could have been their original language in that case...I would note only that Scirii are by some authors claimed to be Alans/Sarmatians

You speak about Anti slavic propaganda, and you push Panslavism,

you even make pelasgians as IE and more specific Slavic,

you make Poland a Pelasgian nation,
you read Duridanov which connects mostly a part of Thracian with Slavic and as blind you did not search his work and in other languages, something which I am forced to do in the next days showing what Duridanov did not write

well pelasgians

compare Thyrrenians with island of Therra (cycladetic)
compare Pelasgians with Palestinians with Philistines with Faliski
search the lemnian stele
and if you want more Hattika Eretreia orchomenos relative cities of Pelasgian as we known by ancient Greek authors (Athens was Speaking Thyrrenian according Thoukidides if I remember correct.
Just also compare Ερετρεια Εret with Raetia


you speak of Anti-Slavic while you push Pan-Slavism

well the answer is no,

Slavic language has nothing to do with Thracian and Pelasgian
it is imported to Balkans by Great Moravia (Serbs) and low ucraine (Severi-Bulgars)

the case that Thracian and Slavic are IE does not mean that they were the same language,
in Fact I believe that Thracian was Centum, and I am waiting Taranis to search it by a good vocabulary
simply the existance of Thracian IE next to Scythian IE makes these 2 language to be near,
but soon I will write about that, proving that Thracian language was not Slavic,

now it is another case the people and another the language
Greeks once reached Indians,
Greek language once was spoken in such areas
what that mean?
that all Indians are Greeks?
cause the same is what you do, Poles as Pelasgians !!!!!
well global warming is raising sea lvl, if krakowy becomes a sea harbor in future then I might agree,

as for AVARS search better who were the Hrpt tribe
before you speak about Sherdana scirii serrians etc
if AVARS were J2 Hg then Hungary will be full of J2

now if R1a or J2 in Greece was from Avars then it will not be present in South Italy, in Grico people,


I believe that in 21 century Europe ignorance is not a crime, thinking even wrong is not a crime, but i wonder what is the limit, the boarder of the 2 above with payed focusing agendas.

[how yes no 3]

You speak about Anti slavic propaganda, and you push Panslavism,

you even make pelasgians as IE and more specific Slavic,

you make Poland a Pelasgian nation,
you read Duridanov which connects mostly a part of Thracian with Slavic and as blind you did not search his work and in other languages, something which I am forced to do in the next days showing what Duridanov did not write

well pelasgians

compare Thyrrenians with island of Therra (cycladetic)
compare Pelasgians with Palestinians with Philistines with Faliski
search the lemnian stele
and if you want more Hattika Eretreia orchomenos relative cities of Pelasgian as we known by ancient Greek authors (Athens was Speaking Thyrrenian according Thoukidides if I remember correct.
Just also compare Ερετρεια Εret with Raetia


you speak of Anti-Slavic while you push Pan-Slavism

well the answer is no,

Slavic language has nothing to do with Thracian and Pelasgian
it is imported to Balkans by Great Moravia (Serbs) and low ucraine (Severi-Bulgars)

the case that Thracian and Slavic are IE does not mean that they were the same language,
in Fact I believe that Thracian was Centum, and I am waiting Taranis to search it by a good vocabulary
simply the existance of Thracian IE next to Scythian IE makes these 2 language to be near,
but soon I will write about that, proving that Thracian language was not Slavic,

now it is another case the people and another the language
Greeks once reached Indians,
Greek language once was spoken in such areas
what that mean?
that all Indians are Greeks?
cause the same is what you do, Poles as Pelasgians !!!!!
well global warming is raising sea lvl, if krakowy becomes a sea harbor in future then I might agree,

as for AVARS search better who were the Hrpt tribe
before you speak about Sherdana scirii serrians etc
if AVARS were J2 Hg then Hungary will be full of J2

now if R1a or J2 in Greece was from Avars then it will not be present in South Italy, in Grico people,


I believe that in 21 century Europe ignorance is not a crime, thinking even wrong is not a crime, but i wonder what is the limit, the boarder of the 2 above with payed focusing agendas.

I speak of continuity of tribal identities through preservation of genetics and tribal names, as 2 key constituents of identity. it is your mind that see everything through currently relevant language groups. When I compare words of different languages, I do not try to prove that e.g. Thracian = Slavic or Celtic = slavic or that Dacian = slavic or that Pelasgian = Slavic...or that Illyrian = Slavic or that Etruscan = Slavic...or that whatever language = Slavic.... I try to identify common words as indication of close or distant relation between tribes due to carrying perhaps similar haplogroups and due to perhaps common part of history with some of populations going through language shifts.....

How many times did I say that languages can change at very fast pace.... where are Celtic languages of central Europe now? how did latin spread from little village to big part of Europe and latin America in known history?
simply, on timescale where genetic is relevant, language groups have little impact as their distribution is rather recent and their history cannot be assumed to be strictly tied to genetics...

we can of course speculate about language issues e.g. about who were original PIE speaking people by comparing theories about spread of PIE language with spreads of haplogroups.......but languages are prone to changes that makes them unreliable marker of nations....

look how we all speak english here... what if EU would become authoritarian centralistic state that would for efficiency reasons impose a single language as official one....in few generations we would all be speaking english and in 1000 years there would be guys like you wondering how did english tribe overtook Europe whose people are clearly of english origin....and those would speculate how all R1b and R1a and I haplogroups and E-V13 is clearly ancient old english tribes...

its not me that is problem, you guys have problem with thinking in narrow categories of language groups that exist now, and with looking from point of interests of a single language group.....

I never said that R-458 was Slavic speaking when it was dominant on Balkan, nor that tribal names that are in my opinion about race name of I2a like: Serbs/Sarbans/Kurds/Scrodisci/Shedrana/Sardinian/Serdi/Serboi/Sart/Serres/Scirians/Serians
were originally Slavic speaking....

I just link genetic with race name preserved in tribal names.... i don't make hard claims about languages...it is your minds caged in current division into language groups who do that extra step and feels their group is jeopardized by what i say...


Regarding Avars, they were too bossy and too cruel, so in the end they were destroyed completely...like Huns... nothing is left from them in Europe...Magyars are a tribe that came later and took over in that time Slav settled Pannonia... genetic of Hungary will not have much to do with either Avars or Huns... you try to link Croats to Avars, ignoring the historical accounts from Byzantium that recorded how Croats were invited to settle Balkan in order to keep borders safe from Avars... why do you keep trying to put slavic people in obscure roles...isn't that indication of you being anti-slavic perhaps due to issue your country and your identity have concerning the name dispute with FYR Macedonia?

[zanipolo]

I suppose it's possible that you're right here, considering that there is some overlap between the "Venetian" type and the "Armenian" type of I2c-B, but I suspect not at the moment, since both are younger than the early "Celtic" branches, and my theory suggests that there ought to be overlap, anyway.



I don't think that they only had one haplogroup, I just think that while I2c-B may fit the pattern you're describing, I2a-Din apparently doesn't. FWIW, I also think the Celts had I2a2b and others.

this sites states that I2a-Din N is more polish ( well today it is )

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/

[sparkey]

in my posts :)

data comes from someone's effort, alike to what Maciamo do on this site, to collect published data for Asia and make maps of haplogroups...
https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/

I have paid attention to map for haplogroup I (my guess is that it is mostly I2a2 as in Asia it is usually I2a2) and determined that it has hotspots that exactly match spread of Pasthun Sarbans, and also spread in Serica north of Tibet, and hotspot in Kyrgizstan/Uzbekistan where Sart people live...e.g. around this place http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margelan which is place where white Sart people live and place that has ancient tradition of silk production indicating origin from Serica...

regarding Kurds, their tribal name I relate to Sherdana, because after studying description of conquest of sea people it was clear that they were northerners, that majority of army was going via land, and that it was settlement wave with woman and children, that judging by order of conquest preserved in historic record, they did make cut from Black sea to south of Asia minor and than to Syria...

all this suggests key settlement exactly in Kurdish area which is strategic bridge between Black sea and Syria....

furthermore Kurds have significant European genetics (R1a+I2a) of rather recent origin.... Kurds have tribal name alike to Sherdana...
note that Sherdana give name Serbonian bog in Egypt...

Is there any evidence that the Haplogroup I in Kurds is I2a-Din, though? I recall someone here (I think it was Alan?) posting a summary of all of the Kurds that have done deep clade tests or significant STR testing, and the only Haplogroup I Kurds were an I1 individual, an I2a2a-Roots (old I2b1-Roots) individual, and maybe an I2c-B individual, out of 20-something total Kurds tested. None of the academic studies so far tested so much.

[zanipolo]

I speak of continuity of tribal identities through preservation of genetics and tribal names, as 2 key constituents of identity. it is your mind that see everything through currently relevant language groups. When I compare words of different languages, I do not try to prove that e.g. Thracian = Slavic or Celtic = slavic or that Dacian = slavic or that Pelasgian = Slavic...or that Illyrian = Slavic or that Etruscan = Slavic...or that whatever language = Slavic.... I try to identify common words as indication of close or distant relation between tribes due to carrying perhaps similar haplogroups and due to perhaps common part of history with some of populations going through language shifts.....

How many times did I say that languages can change at very fast pace.... where are Celtic languages of central Europe now? how did latin spread from little village to big part of Europe and latin America in known history?
simply, on timescale where genetic is relevant, language groups have little impact as their distribution is rather recent and their history cannot be assumed to be strictly tied to genetics...

we can of course speculate about language issues e.g. about who were original PIE speaking people by comparing theories about spread of PIE language with spreads of haplogroups.......but languages are prone to changes that makes them unreliable marker of nations....

look how we all speak english here... what if EU would become authoritarian centralistic state that would for efficiency reasons impose a single language as official one....in few generations we would all be speaking english and in 1000 years there would be guys like you wondering how did english tribe overtook Europe whose people are clearly of english origin....and those would speculate how all R1b and R1a and I haplogroups and E-V13 is clearly ancient old english tribes...

its not me that is problem, you guys have problem with thinking in narrow categories of language groups that exist now, and with looking from point of interests of a single language group.....

I never said that R-458 was Slavic speaking when it was dominant on Balkan, nor that tribal names that are in my opinion about race name of I2a like: Serbs/Sarbans/Kurds/Scrodisci/Shedrana/Sardinian/Serdi/Serboi/Sart/Serres/Scirians/Serians
were originally Slavic speaking....

I just link genetic with race name preserved in tribal names.... i don't make hard claims about languages...it is your minds caged in current division into language groups who do that extra step and feels their group is jeopardized by what i say...


Regarding Avars, they were too bossy and too cruel, so in the end they were destroyed completely...like Huns... nothing is left from them in Europe...Magyars are a tribe that came later and took over in that time Slav settled Pannonia... genetic of Hungary will not have much to do with either Avars or Huns... you try to link Croats to Avars, ignoring the historical accounts from Byzantium that recorded how Croats were invited to settle Balkan in order to keep borders safe from Avars... why do you keep trying to put slavic people in obscure roles...isn't that indication of you being anti-slavic perhaps due to issue your country and your identity have concerning the name dispute with FYR Macedonia?

tribal name should not be taken for granted that it represents a historical race. this is silly
the original Prussians where baltic people and yet the germans took this name when the germanic teutons conquered prussia. Every one thiks today that prussia = germans

[Yetos]

I speak of continuity of tribal identities through preservation of genetics and tribal names, as 2 key constituents of identity. it is your mind that see everything through currently relevant language groups. When I compare words of different languages, I do not try to prove that e.g. Thracian = Slavic or Celtic = slavic or that Dacian = slavic or that Pelasgian = Slavic...or that Illyrian = Slavic or that Etruscan = Slavic...or that whatever language = Slavic.... I try to identify common words as indication of close or distant relation between tribes due to carrying perhaps similar haplogroups and due to perhaps common part of history with some of populations going through language shifts.....

How many times did I say that languages can change at very fast pace.... where are Celtic languages of central Europe now? how did latin spread from little village to big part of Europe and latin America in known history?
simply, on timescale where genetic is relevant, language groups have little impact as their distribution is rather recent and their history cannot be assumed to be strictly tied to genetics...

we can of course speculate about language issues e.g. about who were original PIE speaking people by comparing theories about spread of PIE language with spreads of haplogroups.......but languages are prone to changes that makes them unreliable marker of nations....

look how we all speak english here... what if EU would become authoritarian centralistic state that would for efficiency reasons impose a single language as official one....in few generations we would all be speaking english and in 1000 years there would be guys like you wondering how did english tribe overtook Europe whose people are clearly of english origin....and those would speculate how all R1b and R1a and I haplogroups and E-V13 is clearly ancient old english tribes...

its not me that is problem, you guys have problem with thinking in narrow categories of language groups that exist now, and with looking from point of interests of a single language group.....

I never said that R-458 was Slavic speaking when it was dominant on Balkan, nor that tribal names that are in my opinion about race name of I2a like: Serbs/Sarbans/Kurds/Scrodisci/Shedrana/Sardinian/Serdi/Serboi/Sart/Serres/Scirians/Serians
were originally Slavic speaking....

I just link genetic with race name preserved in tribal names.... i don't make hard claims about languages...it is your minds caged in current division into language groups who do that extra step and feels their group is jeopardized by what i say...


Regarding Avars, they were too bossy and too cruel, so in the end they were destroyed completely...like Huns... nothing is left from them in Europe...Magyars are a tribe that came later and took over in that time Slav settled Pannonia... genetic of Hungary will not have much to do with either Avars or Huns... you try to link Croats to Avars, ignoring the historical accounts from Byzantium that recorded how Croats were invited to settle Balkan in order to keep borders safe from Avars... why do you keep trying to put slavic people in obscure roles...isn't that indication of you being anti-slavic perhaps due to issue your country and your identity have concerning the name dispute with FYR Macedonia?

I only said about Hrpt which can be Hrvt and in satemization Srbt (k-h ->S)

the rest is up your imagination,
you said about anti-slavic but you do not see the Pan-Slavism in this thread in many posts,

ok keep your agenda,
the think that many do not accept in this forum, is that Y-Dna HG as also Linguistics is a tool for search, not for claim,

and for the info, search how many Slavic languages have the word Pekara, (bread maker-shop) then you will understand more about HG and linguistics

[how yes no 3]

Is there any evidence that the Haplogroup I in Kurds is I2a-Din, though? I recall someone here (I think it was Alan?) posting a summary of all of the Kurds that have done deep clade tests or significant STR testing, and the only Haplogroup I Kurds were an I1 individual, an I2a2a-Roots (old I2b1-Roots) individual, and maybe an I2c-B individual, out of 20-something total Kurds tested. None of the academic studies so far tested so much.

I did not see any evidence it is I2a-Din...at some point in past I read it somewhere and took it for granted.....

searching forum for related posts, i think you were making same mistake...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26619-I2a-origins-in-Kurdistan&p=374841&viewfull=1#post374841

Maciamo stated that Kurdish I2 is definetively I2a and in fact I2a2 as he remembers..
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post371251

it is likely to be some I2a older than i2a-din ....I2a-Din is a bit young to fit as already numerous into sea people scenario (around 1200BC that is 3200 bp)....

that is why i lately speak of I2a and not of I2a-Din when I speak of Kurds....

seems i missed that list you talk about......
but am pretty sure that I have seen on one of the forums some list with haplogroups of several Kurdish people and among them was a Sorani Kurd classified as I2a-Din....
having some I2a-Din and more of the older clade could fit well into time frame of sea peoples...

[how yes no 3]

and for the info, search how many Slavic languages have the word Pekara, (bread maker-shop) then you will understand more about HG and linguistics

i do not understand your point...

Pekara comes from PIE
it is practically the same word as 'bakery'

south Slavs have 'pekara' other Slavs 'pekarna' and 'piekarna' which are same words...

[zanipolo]

I did not see any evidence it is I2a-Din...at some point in past I read it somewhere and took it for granted....

it is likely to mostly be older i2a though....I2a-Din is a bit young to fit as already numerous into sea people scenario (around 1200BC that is 3200 bp)....

that is why i lately speak of I2a and not of I2a-Din when I speak of Kurds....

seems i missed that list you talk about......
but am pretty sure that I have seen on one of the forums some list with haplogroups of several Kurdish people and among them was a Sorani Kurd classified as I2a-Din....
having some I2a-Din and more of the older clade could fit well into time frame of sea peoples...

none in the link i provided on page 341

[Gosh]

High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia
Maria Regueiro, Luis Rivera, Tatjana Damnjanovic, Ljiljana Lukovic, Jelena Milasin, Rene J. Herrera

paper estimates that R1a-M458 is in Serbia 14kya old, while in other Slavic areas (R1a-M458 is Slavic only marker and rare outside of europe) it is 11kya...this means R1a-M458 must have spread to Poland from Balkan... this could have been in times of Pelasgians or perhaps before...

Do you realy believe in everything you've read in your life?

Even these few words are stupid enough to continue discussion about that.
People who worked on this paper don't understand anything about genetics (yes, I'm sure in that) but they don't understand history at all!!!

Where we can see that R1a-M458 14kyo? Can you show me a few persons from Serbia in public databases with that marker?

You can't but you'll continue with your fairytale. This paper is something the worst in popular genetics together with the latest Croatian paper which will "explain" to some nationalists that Croats are in Dalmatia "for at least 7000 years in continuity". It is much easier to lie than to tell truth.

[razor]

this sites states that I2a-Din N is more polish ( well today it is )

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/

This map is about as accurate as a soccer game in minute 1 or a baseball game in the first half of the first inning (:=)) I see my name on its list but I have no spot on the map and I'm certainly not in Poland. As in many other matters (aDNA included) we have to wait for more testing in Ukraine.