How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

[Taranis]

i do not understand your point...

Pekara comes from PIE
it is practically the same word as 'bakery'

south Slavs have 'pekara' other Slavs 'pekarna' and 'piekarna' which are same words...

You talk about PIE but you have no idea about linguistic methodology and apparently do not want to know anything about that.

Exhibit A:

I never said that R-458 was Slavic speaking when it was dominant on Balkan, nor that tribal names that are in my opinion about race name of I2a like: Serbs/Sarbans/Kurds/Scrodisci/Shedrana/Sardinian/Serdi/Serboi/Sart/Serres/Scirians/Serians
were originally Slavic speaking....

Exhibit B:

Pelasgi(ans) are good guess due to same key word used for tribal name
polje = field => Poljaci
Pelagos = field, flatland, sea (probably loan word from Pelasgian language to Greek) => Pelazgi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

those are pretty strong indications that west Slavs origin from ancient Balkan people very likely from Pelasgians.....

Two superficially similar words ~2800 years apart are for "pretty strong indications"?

I speak of continuity of tribal identities through preservation of genetics and tribal names, as 2 key constituents of identity.

Preservation of tribal identities through genetics? I think that classifies as a form of Lamarckism.

i will add that only extremely biased people with strong anti-slavic agenda can apriori discard all these thoughts above as rubish and threaten with ban to people who dare to think about it...
i thought in 21 century in europe I will not need to fight for freedom to say what i think.....

And of course everybody who disagrees with you is "extremely biased and has a strong anti-slavic agenda".

Let's forget genetics and forget languages for a moment: denying historically documented events (Roman-Marcomannic interaction 1st through 3rd centuries AD) is something else...

[how yes no 3]

actually, just found the list I talked about - Sorani Kurd was I2a2a (old I2b1) not I2a-Din as I thought...

[how yes no 3]

Do you realy believe in everything you've read in your life?

Even these few words are stupid enough to continue discussion about that.
People who worked on this paper don't understand anything about genetics (yes, I'm sure in that) but they don't understand history at all!!!

Where we can see that R1a-M458 14kyo? Can you show me a few persons from Serbia in public databases with that marker?

there are different methodologies to estimate diversity...

those articles were written by people whose job is research in genetics...their papers pass through harsh peer review before they can be published in renown scientific journals...
you did not even read the paper, but you have "opinion"....
it sounds a bit like when a housewife speaks about fixing space ship and of dumb engineers..... or cleaning lady about Einstein's theory and dumb physicists...

[how yes no 3]

You talk about PIE but you have no idea about linguistic methodology and apparently do not want to know anything about that.
Exhibit A:

I never said that R-458 was Slavic speaking when it was dominant on Balkan, nor that tribal names that are in my opinion about race name of I2a like: Serbs/Sarbans/Kurds/Scrodisci/Shedrana/Sardinian/Serdi/Serboi/Sart/Serres/Scirians/Serians
were originally Slavic speaking....

Exhibit B:

Pelasgi(ans) are good guess due to same key word used for tribal name
polje = field => Poljaci
Pelagos = field, flatland, sea (probably loan word from Pelasgian language to Greek) => Pelazgi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

those are pretty strong indications that west Slavs origin from ancient Balkan people very likely from Pelasgians.....

Two superficially similar words ~2800 years apart are for "pretty strong indications"?

for a person who is into languages you should know the meaning of the word "indication"...
indication is not a proof, it is a clue


as always, you cut out a part of a claim and than massacre it with requiring super precision...

if R-M458 has highest diversity (indicating paleolithic settlement) in Balkan and has highest frequency in Poland and practically doesnot exist outside of Europe, already that is pretty good indication that population from which west Slavs origin have moved to Poland from Balkans

furthermore, I have noticed year ago by comparing known Pelasgian areas in ancient Greece with R1a, that Pelasgians seems to correlate with R1a...

finally, Pelasgians and Poljaci both having similar sounding tribal name of same meaning ("field people") in case it is not a coincidence strongly enforces previous indication ..but note that this is not standalone claim.....as it builds upon R1a trace

you cannot understand/appreciate my ideas if you focus just on linguistic part... what i suggest is always based on a set of clues pointing in same direction....
its like trying to understand a book by focusing on repeatedly reading a single sentence that is not what you expected...and instead of reading a book arguing about the sentence... but the sentence is such that it is clear only if you read a book...

Preservation of tribal identities through genetics? I think that classifies as a form of Lamarckism.

i think you think too precise so you are not able to see bigger picture...

perhaps I did not express myself clearly, but i think it was clear what i wanted to say...
a population is defined by its genetics and is carrier of a tribal identity...
tribal identity is associated with a race name/tribal name which is carried by the population.....
population undergoes historic events in which its race does not change but its language may....
there are big chances that haplogroup spread correlates with race name... like J1 with Arabs, O with Chinese people, I1 and I2b with germanic people (Gomer in bible times).....

on other hand, languages can change rapidly like languages of latin America and of big part of Europe have changed in recent history (recent from point of view of genetic developments timescale not from point of view of individual person)...

And of course everybody who disagrees with you is "extremely biased and has a strong anti-slavic agenda".

not everybody...i was talking about you
e.g. sparkey always points out his arguments like gentleman, you argue like raper... you put yourself in higher worth position... you speak like teacher to stupid kids... no respect...

and you repeatedly try to put ancestors of Slavic people in Asia before 5th century... which is a theory, and in fact a bad one as R-M458 and I2a-Din show...but you still claim it as an absolute truth and try to exterminate any other possible explanation by calling it having agenda of pan-slavic revisionist fantasies or whatever......

what if arrival of Slavic people from Asia in 5th century is your pan-Germanic fantasy?
genetics clearly shows it is just fantasy... but you do not accept arguments against your beliefs...against your ideology

Let's forget genetics and forget languages for a moment: denying historically documented events (Roman-Marcomannic interaction 1st through 3rd centuries AD) is something else...

what on earth do you talk about?
about your misinterpretation of what I said...

that Serbs come to Balkan from Bohemia where they have also originally dwellt is not even my claim, but from historic document "De administrando imperio" written by Byzantine emperror....

let me repeat again, when I try to figure out this, I do not claim that ancestors of Serbs did speak slavic... which means linguistically one should look into serbian language and see whether there are words that origin from other candidate languages (which is what I tried with Celtic, but it turned out that there were much less shared words than expected)

[MOESAN]

this sites states that I2a-Din N is more polish ( well today it is )

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/

just a question of method: these maps show the countries distribution by haplotype - what we need more is the haplotype distribution by country - a lot of the conclusions we try to take out of thses statistics are biased...

[zanipolo]

if R-M458 has highest diversity (indicating paleolithic settlement) in Balkan and has highest frequency in Poland and practically doesnot exist outside of Europe, already that is pretty good indication that population from which west Slavs origin have moved to Poland from Balkans

"which west slavs"? ............. why do they have to be slavic, why where they not , hunnic, thracian, illyrian, celts, germanics etc etc

perhaps I did not express myself clearly, but i think it was clear what i wanted to say...
a population is defined by its genetics and is carrier of a tribal identity...

a population has many genetic Hgs and so tribal identity does not apply

tribal identity is associated with a race name/tribal name which is carried by the population.....

true to a degree

population undergoes historic events in which its race does not change but its language may....

false, the germanic saxon, angels and jutes in england have changed their race

there are big chances that haplogroup spread correlates with race name... like J1 with Arabs, O with Chinese people, I1 and I2b with germanic people (Gomer in bible times).....

no chance this applies as time passes.....maybe in the bronze-age, but by Roman times this is lost.

not everybody...i was talking about you
e.g. sparkey always points out his arguments like gentleman, you argue like raper... you put yourself in higher worth position... you speak like teacher to stupid kids... no respect...

why am I always left out!?

that Serbs come to Balkan from Bohemia where they have also originally dwellt is not even my claim, but from historic document "De administrando imperio" written by Byzantine emperror....

you again start your history of europe after the germanic migrations to the balkans and the west ...........you know there was history in the bronze and iron ages as well

let me repeat again, when I try to figure out this, I do not claim that ancestors of Serbs did speak slavic... which means linguistically one should look into serbian language and see whether there are words that origin from other candidate languages (which is what I tried with Celtic, but it turned out that there were much less shared words than expected)

all european languages borrowed words from other languages over time and amended these words into their own. inland based people gather words on sea animals from other languages is an example.

[zanipolo]

just a question of method: these maps show the countries distribution by haplotype - what we need more is the haplotype distribution by country - a lot of the conclusions we try to take out of thses statistics are biased...

no problem....I just presented another site, be it good or bad depends on the individual

[Yetos]

for a person who is into languages you should know the meaning of the word "indication"...
indication is not a proof, it is a clue


as always, you cut out a part of a claim and than massacre it with requiring super precision...

if R-M458 has highest diversity (indicating paleolithic settlement) in Balkan and has highest frequency in Poland and practically doesnot exist outside of Europe, already that is pretty good indication that population from which west Slavs origin have moved to Poland from Balkans

furthermore, I have noticed year ago by comparing known Pelasgian areas in ancient Greece with R1a, that Pelasgians seems to correlate with R1a...

finally, Pelasgians and Poljaci both having similar sounding tribal name of same meaning ("field people") in case it is not a coincidence strongly enforces previous indication ..but note that this is not standalone claim.....as it builds upon R1a trace

you cannot understand/appreciate my ideas if you focus just on linguistic part... what i suggest is always based on a set of clues pointing in same direction....
its like trying to understand a book by focusing on repeatedly reading a single sentence that is not what you expected...and instead of reading a book arguing about the sentence... but the sentence is such that it is clear only if you read a book...



i think you think too precise so you are not able to see bigger picture...

perhaps I did not express myself clearly, but i think it was clear what i wanted to say...
a population is defined by its genetics and is carrier of a tribal identity...
tribal identity is associated with a race name/tribal name which is carried by the population.....
population undergoes historic events in which its race does not change but its language may....
there are big chances that haplogroup spread correlates with race name... like J1 with Arabs, O with Chinese people, I1 and I2b with germanic people (Gomer in bible times).....

on other hand, languages can change rapidly like languages of latin America and of big part of Europe have changed in recent history (recent from point of view of genetic developments timescale not from point of view of individual person)...


not everybody...i was talking about you
e.g. sparkey always points out his arguments like gentleman, you argue like raper... you put yourself in higher worth position... you speak like teacher to stupid kids... no respect...

and you repeatedly try to put ancestors of Slavic people in Asia before 5th century... which is a theory, and in fact a bad one as R-M458 and I2a-Din show...but you still claim it as an absolute truth and try to exterminate any other possible explanation by calling it having agenda of pan-slavic revisionist fantasies or whatever......

what if arrival of Slavic people from Asia in 5th century is your pan-Germanic fantasy?
genetics clearly shows it is just fantasy... but you do not accept arguments against your beliefs...against your ideology



what on earth do you talk about?
about your misinterpretation of what I said...

that Serbs come to Balkan from Bohemia where they have also originally dwellt is not even my claim, but from historic document "De administrando imperio" written by Byzantine emperror....

let me repeat again, when I try to figure out this, I do not claim that ancestors of Serbs did speak slavic... which means linguistically one should look into serbian language and see whether there are words that origin from other candidate languages (which is what I tried with Celtic, but it turned out that there were much less shared words than expected)

R1a M-458 exist >10% in Sarendo S Itay, probably is after Slavic devastation and settlement
also don't forget to mention that except Serdi, Sherdana, Sardenians, Scirii, Serrians, Serbs, Scordicii, Sardanapalus, Sharpedon, sardeis, sorbones, in Paris, Skudra, skoder Saracenes are the old Slavic population while in Centum Karditsa Karducks Karadanians Kurds

PS do not forget Shaar is after Sherdana but we miss the d
and Kim Kardasyan is the mother of all the above


while the father is Sadam only he forget to put the R so to be Sardam


PS2 and even think that I speak non sense .
I speak with Genetic data like all these population share the R1a which is a 'clear evidence' a 'trade mark' of Slavic population HG R1a

PS3 I wonder if Swedes are sons of Sadam also and they forget the R and their original name is Swerdes


BTW I love your method

I have just prove that Swedish are Serbs and Slavic but they did not know it yet



I wonder were Saracenes Slavic also?



sory that is my last post about your method

I am certain that in your next post you surely connect Myceneans with Myseans with Moesians and finaly with Moggolians

I am pretty certain that chinese or Sines come from Mount Sinai and they were semitic origin and they change the m to n like Senitic-Sines-chinese

[how yes no 3]

R1a M-458 exist >10% in Sarendo S Itay, probably is after Slavic devastation and settlement
also don't forget to mention that except Serdi, Sherdana, Sardenians, Scirii, Serrians, Serbs, Scordicii, Sardanapalus, Sharpedon, sardeis, sorbones, in Paris, Skudra, skoder Saracenes are the old Slavic population while in Centum Karditsa Karducks Karadanians Kurds

Iapetoc, you just prove that you didnot understand anything from what I was talking because your mind is formatted to think in categories of modern language groups....

I never told that M-458 was originally slavic, nor that tribal names whose spread clearly correlates with I2a were originally Slavic. It is your mind that tells you that....

Opposite to what you say R1a-M458 in Sarendo south Italy is another indication of what I am claiming - that R1a-M458 is ancient old in Balkans and that it was there before south Slavs.... in same time I say it is that, originally Balkan, R1a-M458 that spread to north to give west Slavs... how difficult is it to understand those things?

All my theories relate tribal names and genetic traces... I do not speak of tribal name as part of
Sarbans/Serbs/Sardi/Serdi/Sherdana/Scordisci/ pattern without first establishing clear relation to I2a...its clear that above are variants of tribal name for a race of I2a people... another branch of this pattern is about Scirians/Serians/Serres/Siraces, but there I have name clash with J2 Syrians/Sumerians....
regarding Swedi and Suebi we might be seeing extension of tribal name pattern to haplogroup I pattern....
and if we add Arabs as J1 and Syrians and Sumerians as J2....
I think this could in ancient times have been even race name for populations carrying IJ haplogroup....
i never said all these tribal names = Serbs... on contrary I said many times that modern Serbs are just a small leaf on a big tree that is related via genetics and name...

in general, I am sure I did find some interesting links... and more important my theories did converge....


on other hand all your theories are just your often weird interpretations of words in other languages via Greek language...and you keep jumping from one theory to another.....

so your post above is more about your posts in general than about my posts... you see this as a struggle about who was before on Balkan - Greeks or Slavic people.... I see it as a history of movement of populations, originally organized in tribes via their races...

btw. Macedonians were not Hellenic people originally..:) area has clearly quite different genetics .. and lets not forget that a Macedonian king had difficulties participating in Olympic Games as it was seen that there is no place there for a foreigner coming from barbarian people... he was admitted only when he showed that his own family, unlike the rest of population, was having hellenic origin... so I do not see why Greece has a problem with people calling their country Macedonia....its not like name was invented now... it is used for centuries for that area...in fact it was used for that area since times of Roman empire... btw. did you ever wonder how come Italy is not molesting Romania for carrying the name of Roman empire?

[Taranis]

for a person who is into languages you should know the meaning of the word "indication"...
indication is not a proof, it is a clue

No, the quintessential question is: can you test it? The point in linguistics, at least when talking distant relationships, is NOT that words sound superficially similar, but that you can prove that a word, if you account for the respective sound laws, is a cognate with a word in another language. You would not recognize real cognates. Let me remind you that:


1) sound laws have no exceptions. they will apply to ALL words in a language


2) if they seemingly have exceptions, these are conditioned by their own set of rules (ie only at the beginning of a word, or only between vowels, etc.).


3) sound laws have no memory


All your supposed "tribal names" were merely based on superficial (read: anything that sounds superficially like the word "Serb") similarities, totally ignoring if it is even viable to change a sound to another. To pick up your own example:


Kurds
Sarbans
Sart
Serbs
Serdi
Serians
Serres
Scirians
Scordisci
Sherdana


According to you "sh" is the same as "s" is the same as "k" is the same as "sk", and "b" is th esame as "d" is the same as "t" is the same as "i" is the same as "Ø” (missing). Also "a" = "e" = "i" = "o" = "u". Even if we completely disregard the fact that these nams are spoken in completely different areas and different times, here is no regularity at work here.


Let's talk about genetics now though...

if R-M458 has highest diversity (indicating paleolithic settlement) in Balkan and has highest frequency in Poland and practically doesnot exist outside of Europe, already that is pretty good indication that population from which west Slavs origin have moved to Poland from Balkans

The assumption that R1a-M458 is Paleolithic is flawed. You're ignoring both the fact R1a-M458 is probably a relatively young subclade of R1a, as well as the structure of R1a as a whole (regretably, Maciamo hasn't made a tree there yet as he did for R1b, which would be helpful in visualizing the situation, but he has things listed here). In any case:


Most R1a anywhere is part of the R1a1a1 (aka R1a-M417) clade, which is in turn dominated by the subclade R1a-Z645. This clade in turn is dominated by two subclades: R1a-Z93 (which is basically the Asian branch of R1a, dominant in India) and R1a-Z283 (the main European branch). Now, the subclade you mentioned (M458) is in turn a subclade of R1a-Z283, meaning it's fairly high up in the "tree", meaning it is almost certainly NOT Paleolithic.

you cannot understand/appreciate my ideas if you focus just on linguistic part... what i suggest is always based on a set of clues pointing in same direction....
its like trying to understand a book by focusing on repeatedly reading a single sentence that is not what you expected...and instead of reading a book arguing about the sentence... but the sentence is such that it is clear only if you read a book...

That's not true. You have your own pre-fabricated direction/goal, and you gather all pieces of evidence that point into that direction and ignore everything else. You way of proceeding here is not much different from creationists or conspiracy theorists on that issue.

i think you think too precise so you are not able to see bigger picture...


perhaps I did not express myself clearly, but i think it was clear what i wanted to say...
a population is defined by its genetics and is carrier of a tribal identity...
tribal identity is associated with a race name/tribal name which is carried by the population.....
population undergoes historic events in which its race does not change but its language may....
there are big chances that haplogroup spread correlates with race name... like J1 with Arabs, O with Chinese people, I1 and I2b with germanic people (Gomer in bible times).....

Well, and I (and others) have told you that this is pure fantasy. There is no tribal identity that miraculously endures millennia regardless of what language people speak, and in my opinion you're entering the realm of esoterics when you claim such a tribal identity is tied with Y-DNA. It also makes you into something of a male chauvinist because, let's remember that only men have Y chromosomes...

and you repeatedly try to put ancestors of Slavic people in Asia before 5th century... which is a theory, and in fact a bad one as R-M458 and I2a-Din show...but you still claim it as an absolute truth and try to exterminate any other possible explanation by calling it having agenda of pan-slavic revisionist fantasies or whatever......

I have never claimed that Slavic peoples were in Asia before the 5th century AD, unless "Eastern Europe" is already "Asia" for you (it certainly isn't for me). Also, as I elaborate above, R1a-M458 (nor I2a-Din) doesn't dispute that in any way.

what if arrival of Slavic people from Asia in 5th century is your pan-Germanic fantasy?
genetics clearly shows it is just fantasy... but you do not accept arguments against your beliefs...against your ideology

But perhaps you are right, and then ancient authors like Strabo, Ptolemy and Cassius Dio were all as biased as I am when they didn't make a single reference of Slavic presence in Central Europe, and for inventing the presence of the Boii and later the Marcomanni in Bohemia...

[how yes no 3]

No, the quintessential question is: can you test it? The point in linguistics, at least when talking distant relationships, is NOT that words sound superficially similar, but that you can prove that a word, if you account for the respective sound laws, is a cognate with a word in another language. You would not recognize real cognates. Let me remind you that:


1) sound laws have no exceptions. they will apply to ALL words in a language

it is not possible to apply sound laws when it is not known what languages are spoken...
but it is possible to observe similar word correlated in other ways - used with same meaning, for same purpose (tribal name), correlating with spread of haplogroups.......
and that is precisely what we have here - set of similar words used as tribal names that continuously in space correlate with spread of a YDNA haplogroup.... which is indication of tribal name or in fact of race name.....
as I explained this may be extended beyond I2a perhaps to race name of IJ people....
taking into account probably haplogroup I1 related race names such as Swabians/Suebi/Swedes...
and J1 Arabs, and J2 Syrians/Sumerians/Aryans

think about probabilities for all this "coincidences"... with so many possible combinations of letters to give words in different languages, random correlation between haplogroup spreads and tribal names is not probable at all, so there must be a link between spread of this name pattern and of carrier population spreading associated Y-DNA haplogroup...

i have repeated many times that modern Serbs would be just a small leaf on such a tree and not the whole tree... what I wanted is to identify larger branch from which they origin..
i2a-Din south points out to central Europe.... De administrando imperio says they came from land they in their language call Boiki that borders Frankia and white Croatia...for a number of reasons this land can be only Bohemia.... it also says it is where they have originally dwellt...(it doesnot say that they were there continiously, but in following 2 occasions: originally and before arrival to Balkan)... only gueses from I2a tribal name pattern are Scirii and Scordisci... Scirii being paired with Hirri/Heruli same way as Serbs with Croats, they lived in area where I2a-Din south exist in lower Vistula south of Baltic and also in Bohemia/Bavaria, and Scordisci were living in area where russian primary chronicle places Danubian Slavs including Serbs and Croats....than again maybe Scordisci and Scirii were same or related... maybe none of them is related to I2a-din in modern Serbs...those are clues... pieces of puzzle that fit or do not fit together... time and more clues will show... before stabbing any idea that doesnot fit in wishful thinking of your langiage group formatted brains, you guys should first try to develop consistent theories of your own....

i do not care about languages...recent history shows languages can change quite fast (e.g. spread of latin derived languages from a little village to whole latin America and big chunk of Europe)..I care about movements of populations...

The assumption that R1a-M458 is Paleolithic is flawed. You're ignoring both the fact R1a-M458 is probably a relatively young subclade of R1a, as well as the structure of R1a as a whole (regretably, Maciamo hasn't made a tree there yet as he did for R1b, which would be helpful in visualizing the situation, but he has things listed here). In any case:

I have given you reference to the paper that estimates age of R1a-M458 in Balkan and rest of Europe...

are you genetic scientist to judge papers published in renown journal? did you read the paper? do you know how to estimate age given the samples?
have you any idea how difficult is it to publish paper in such journal? do you know how strict is peer review procedure?


no, you first heard of haplogroups year and half ago...and do not understand it much better even today...
but you "know" its flawed...
what a "genious"
you sound like a housewife or cleaning lady making hard statement without any reasoning behind it that e.g. Einstein's theories are rubbish...

Well, and I (and others) have told you that this is pure fantasy. There is no tribal identity that miraculously endures millennia regardless of what language people speak, and in my opinion you're entering the realm of esoterics when you claim such a tribal identity is tied with Y-DNA. It also makes you into something of a male chauvinist because, let's remember that only men have Y chromosomes...

its a race name...
that is why it endures...

those are variants of a race name of I2a, maybe of whole haplogroup I, or even IJ people...

Swabians/Swedi/Suebi - I1
Arabs - J1
Syrians/Sumerians/Aryans - J2
(link between Sumerians and Syrians comes from Strabo and J2 is clearly dominant in Syria and in Cappadocia where Strabo finds white Syrians...Aryans settlements around Indus river show clear correlation with J2)

I have never claimed that Slavic peoples were in Asia before the 5th century AD, unless "Eastern Europe" is already "Asia" for you (it certainly isn't for me). Also, as I elaborate above, R1a-M458 (nor I2a-Din) doesn't dispute that in any way.

you did..don't make me search for it..

But perhaps you are right, and then ancient authors like Strabo, Ptolemy and Cassius Dio were all as biased as I am when they didn't make a single reference of Slavic presence in Central Europe, and for inventing the presence of the Boii and later the Marcomanni in Bohemia...

you keep saying this...
but nothing I said is coliding with historic sources...
Slavs is a tribal name of a union... like EU is recent name for union of states...
but same people existed before creation of union...under own names...

if EU was not mentioned before 1990s, it doesnot mean that nations that are now part of EU didnot exist in Europe before 1990s, that they must have been elsewhere e.g. in Asia...

[Taranis]

no, you first heard of haplogroups year and half ago...and do not understand it much better even today...
but you "know" its flawed...
what a "genious"
you sound like a housewife or cleaning lady making hard statement without any reasoning behind it that e.g. Einstein's theories are rubbish...

Well, listen to yourself. You get an infraction now.

Remember this: next time you're insulting somebody on this forum, you're banned.

[how yes no 3]

Well, listen to yourself. You get an infraction now.

Remember this: next time you're insulting somebody on this forum, you're banned.

hey, why did you delete my post explaining everything?

do you understand how unfair is it to argue by deleting arguments other people make....
what kind of person are you?
do you have any morality, any sense of fair play? can you look yourself in mirror?

in short, insult is about putting a person into low worth position, and my comparison was clearly not an insult but about lack of competence of a person not educated in some area of science to criticize work of people educated in that area of science... the work that passed harsh peer review...face it, you are hobbyst, you do not know how to estimate from samples how old is a haplogroup, so you do not have enough competence to state it is flawed..

your ego could see it as an insult if you are kind of person that judges worth by job and gender and think that cleaning ladies and housewives are low worth creatures....

and I gave in that post great summary of my theories on this site, and explained why large set of coincidences is in my viewpoint not a coincidence (as it is not probable), but is instead pointing to deeper causal connection and why i explain it the way I do.......it was easily my best post ever on this site......

I demand my post to be restored.... if you have any sense of fair-play or any morality you will restore it... ..

[Gosh]

there are different methodologies to estimate diversity...

those articles were written by people whose job is research in genetics...their papers pass through harsh peer review before they can be published in renown scientific journals...
you did not even read the paper, but you have "opinion"....
it sounds a bit like when a housewife speaks about fixing space ship and of dumb engineers..... or cleaning lady about Einstein's theory and dumb physicists...

That's their job, I agree but they did that job VERY BAD. They are far away from the truth.
I've read that paper (unfortunately) and I only can say that it is full of lies. The same thing as Mr Primorac work about I2a1 in Croatia.

Yes, I'm a dumb housewife comparing with your "Einstein's theories". The main difference between you and me is that I'm much more serious than you and listen real science. You're enjoying in science fiction, unfortunately.

You know almost nothing about R1a but you're ready to teach all of us how we have to think!
Russian scientist Anatole Klyosov who's "dad" for your "researchers" never talked about 14000 y.o. R1a from Balkans but only 12000 y.o. derived from the works of Mrs Pericic (and never confirmed in another study). We have no other proves that they really exist but it is enough to you to develop your "Einstein's theories".

I've put you a question which you didn't answer... can you find (and show) ANY R1a from Serbia which is 14000 old? I know that you can't. But you'll tell me that "some scientists found them". Be so nice and show us that results if you want to discuss normally. Not in a form of a propaganda paper but in a simple form of a haplotype.

Population (R1a) in Serbia is a typical Slavic population from the Carpathian basin (R1a Z280+, Carpathian III with estimated TMRCA on cca 2200 years) . Any other interpretation is just a cheap lie.

[how yes no 3]

I've put you a question which you didn't answer... can you find (and show) ANY R1a from Serbia which is 14000 old? I know that you can't. But you'll tell me that "some scientists found them". Be so nice and show us that results if you want to discuss normally. Not in a form of a propaganda paper but in a simple form of a haplotype.

Don't brag with your ignorance...
there is no such a thing as oldness of a single haplotype without comparing it to others. Age is estimated based on diversity of observed haplotypes, roughly speaking its based on number of observed mutations and their positions. There is a mathematical model to do that and those guys have just applied the model to the results of testing. The model used generally in scientific work to estimate age is from what I know not exactly the same as in genealogy that uses somewhat more conservative models as it originally targets to find actual relatives and not to estimate actual age of haplogroup.

their calculation is not good for you, and for some other memebers here, only because it doesnot fit in your wishful thinking.

[Yetos]

btw. Macedonians were not Hellenic people originally..:) area has clearly quite different genetics .. and lets not forget that a Macedonian king had difficulties participating in Olympic Games as it was seen that there is no place there for a foreigner coming from barbarian people... he was admitted only when he showed that his own family, unlike the rest of population, was having hellenic origin... so I do not see why Greece has a problem with people calling their country Macedonia....its not like name was invented now... it is used for centuries for that area...in fact it was used for that area since times of Roman empire... btw. did you ever wonder how come Italy is not molesting Romania for carrying the name of Roman empire?

Although I said last, I can't control my shelf
yes they were a mix,
their primary Land was Massachusetts in America, from there they split,
the ones who went west pass the Arctic Islands in Alaska and setlled in Moggolia
the ones who went East by boat the went to Scotland and from there a Brave man named Mc-Adams manage to unify them again both East and West n Makedonia who took his name.
there was another part who went south and lost in the Zungles the Maya-donians

You do see this but you do not See thracian word for 'our people' which is Muka

[how yes no 3]

yes they were a mix,
their primary Land was Massachusetts in America, from there they split,
the ones who went west pass the Arctic Islands in Alaska and setlled in Moggolia
the ones who went East by boat the went to Scotland and from there a Brave man named Mc-Adams manage to unify them again both East and West n Makedonia who took his name.

yes, i knew they made a mistake of not turning left at Albuquerque.

You do see this but you do not See thracian word for 'our people' which is Muka

first time I hear of the word... it is also not listed among 23 thracian words whose meaning is known. so i guess this is another one of your extrapolations of meaning of words based on Greek?

anyway, does it mean that you are suggesting that Macedonians were originally Thracians?

[Yetos]

yes, i knew they made a mistake of not turning left at Albuquerque.



first time I hear of the word... it is also not listed among 23 thracian words whose meaning is known. so i guess this is another one of your extrapolations of meaning of words based on Greek?

anyway, does it mean that you are suggesting that Macedonians were originally Thracians?

NO COmment

I see you read Duridanov's work page 3
but you did not read another page, why?

search Makedonians old tests, search also the areas, search the exact area of Grekoi (not Hellenes) and search magna grecia you see what I mean,

Besides I do not need any proves more, Pella katadesmos is just fine,

But what can I wait from a man who never read Makedonian History, and Culture,
who thinks that Bria is Thracian word for city ( the 23 words you mention)

so we have an evidence Canta-bria in Spain is Thracian,
as also Kalabria and Umbria in Italy


want more about the 23 words?
word sgar is only Nordic, or icelandic?
well better find the word in English as Sharp
in modern Greek Thracian Idiom (con/polis) as καρφι karphi (engl nail) as σκαρπελο skarpelo (a sharp tool)
ancient Greek εσχαρα (a plex of crossed iron bars)
which remained as Scara to South Slavs ( an iron plate where we cook meat)
maybe Sublaki was surblaki before !!!!!! and was a Sardenian delicacy who learn it from Sharbans when they moved from Swerbian Sherdana
search more
the word Muka is after Duridanov's work which you consider as brilliant but who did not check or read
you say a lot but you do not see the words of Thracian even in Hellenistic or in Church
the word Μυρον myron,
simply
pan-slavism and the era of communism expand through Slavs is over,
new tests are about to be done, and not 3 soldiers to be a sample in a work you know,

wait new genetical data soon,


if you want to open again the Makedonian issue go ahead, there are many Threads about it in this forum,
but better read them first,

My suggestion is before you post something,
Read carefully the thread, the debates, the devil's advocate and the conclusions,

If I2a2 Din is so young so not to be Thracian, then how come is so old to be Sherdana?
explain that first and then I might agree with your method,

if I2a2 Din is so young that is almost the time of Slavic migrations to Balkans
then how can it be so old to exist in ancient minor Asian population like Kurds the same one

your method say that Kurds Sherdana Sharpedon moved to central Europe and return as Serbs and they have the same Genetic I HG,

High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia
Maria Regueiro, Luis Rivera, Tatjana Damnjanovic, Ljiljana Lukovic, Jelena Milasin, Rene J. Herrera


paper estimates that R1a-M458 is in Serbia 14kya old, while in other Slavic areas (R1a-M458 is Slavic only marker and rare outside of europe) it is 11kya...this means R1a-M458 must have spread to Poland from Balkan... this could have been in times of Pelasgians or perhaps before...

R1a1a*(xM458) is oldest in Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers in India and is there 14kya old, while in Serbia it is 11kya....

we do not know what was the language of R1a-M458 people (dominant marker in Poles) but we can only assume that they are in Europe last 14kya, and originally on Balkan....

Pelasgi(ans) are good guess due to same key word used for tribal name
polje = field => Poljaci
Pelagos = field, flatland, sea (probably loan word from Pelasgian language to Greek) => Pelazgi


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

those are pretty strong indications that west Slavs origin from ancient Balkan people very likely from Pelasgians.....I do not make any claim about languages as languages can change fast as we know on case of latin spoken originally only in rome and its derivatives spread fast to big chunk of Europe and to latin America, and from celtic languages disappearing from vast area in short time... looking history through language only is unreliable... it works only for quite recent and already known history...

i will add that only extremely biased people with strong anti-slavic agenda can apriori discard all these thoughts above as rubish and threaten with ban to people who dare to think about it...
i thought in 21 century in europe I will not need to fight for freedom to say what i think.....


there are still avars in caucasus... not sure anymore, but as far as I remember they were J2...




what is opposite? that R1a were associated with Kurgan? that r1a was associated with PIE? that PIE was spread by Kurgan culture?




in my posts :)

data comes from someone's effort, alike to what Maciamo do on this site, to collect published data for Asia and make maps of haplogroups...
https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/

I have paid attention to map for haplogroup I (my guess is that it is mostly I2a2 as in Asia it is usually I2a2) and determined that it has hotspots that exactly match spread of Pasthun Sarbans, and also spread in Serica north of Tibet, and hotspot in Kyrgizstan/Uzbekistan where Sart people live...e.g. around this place http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margelan which is place where white Sart people live and place that has ancient tradition of silk production indicating origin from Serica...

regarding Kurds, their tribal name I relate to Sherdana, because after studying description of conquest of sea people it was clear that they were northerners, that majority of army was going via land, and that it was settlement wave with woman and children, that judging by order of conquest preserved in historic record, they did make cut from Black sea to south of Asia minor and than to Syria...

all this suggests key settlement exactly in Kurdish area which is strategic bridge between Black sea and Syria....

furthermore Kurds have significant European genetics (R1a+I2a) of rather recent origin.... Kurds have tribal name alike to Sherdana...
note that Sherdana give name Serbonian bog in Egypt...

so idea is that I2a people carried with themselves tribal name recorded in variants Sherd/Sard/Serd/Serb/Kurd/Scord/Sart/Ser... depending on transcriptions of writers and ending due to being classified in this or that culture,,,
I do not know what language those tribes spoke... but I do notice that pattern of haplogroup I in Asia does match supposed spread of PIE people from homeland that in fact matches Kurdish areas....

regardless of language,

I go step further and suggest that Sherdana are no other than early wave of Scordisci along Danube to Black sea... . Scordisci give name Scardus mountain (Shar Dag in turkish) in south Serbia....reason I suggest this is that Scordisci have for long time dwelled along Danube.....and that it is evident that, apart from Hercegovina, which is initial settlement of Serbs and Croats, I2a-Din reaches maximum in areas along Danube with some of the hotspots in end of that area in Ukraine...and on start of the area in Bohemia...I2a-Din was in my opinion related to Danube from ancient times...there we again have issue with Seneca relating Serians to Danube...as people who dare to cross frozen Danube on bare foot...Serians are same as Serres who live in Serica which is Asia north of Tibet (which is where Sart and white(west) Sart people now live) and in arc from there to India (this arc is clearly visible in haplogroup I map from site above and it matches arc shaped spread of Pastun Sarbans with arc making knee on exactly same place in Sarbans and haplogroup I....

Serians is same tribal name as Scirians (Sciri) so it is a question whether those were again same people...if they were it is a clue that Scirii-Heruli might have been forefathers of Serbs and Croats.... again, I will not speculate about what could have been their original language in that case...I would note only that Scirii are by some authors claimed to be Alans/Sarmatians

PS 1
So Pelasgians were IE and R1a Poles and Spoke Slavic language in Balkans
PS 2
So Kurds and Serbs are the same but Spoke another Language,
and I HG maybe is originate in minor Asia?


so Poltuombria one the 23 words you mention is after Poles and is flat in the Mt Aimos Hills !!!!
So Pelsgian who were R1a were Speaking a minor Asian Language which Ancients Identify it with Etruscan,
SO LEMNEAN STEELE IS A SLAVIC (POLISH) SCRIPTURE !!!!!!

so the POLES were the Sea peoples?

So Modern Kurds are Serbs cause they have I2a2 DIN
and Sherdana are also Slavic I2a2 DIN

Really ?
Thracian are not I2a2 DIN cause it is so young, (read Sparkey's post in this Thread)
Then how come Sherdana were I2a2 DIN?

PS3 I wonder did you read the Duridanov's work?


HOW YES NO
PAN -SLAVISM PAN-ALBANISM PAN-HELLENIsM PAN_TURKISM NAZI-ARIAN ERA IS OVER.
I am G HG maybe Pelasgian, yet that did not affect my life, neither my Ideas, neither History, neither Humanity,

Finaly
http://groznijat.tripod.com/thrac/DUVANLI.jpg


DUVAN_T.gif
Thracian Alphabet

The image of the horseman clarifies the word mezena as meaning ‘a horseman’. The Thracian mezena (mezenai in the text) is almost identical to the name (the epithet) of the Messapian deity of (Iuppiter) Menzana, the “horse deity” to which were sacrificed horses. It also corresponds to the Albanian mes, mezi (‘a stallion’) and the Romainan mnz (‘a stallion’). The latter is Dacian in origin from the IE *mend(i)- ‘a horse’. The Thracian mezena and the Messapian Menzana – from the IE *mendiana mean ‘a horseman’.

the rights of the above is not mine but Georgiev's

.
first time I hear of the word... it is also not listed among 23 thracian words whose meaning is known. so i guess this is another one of your extrapolations of meaning of words based on Greek?

yes it is in my imagination
another prove of your methods and target

muka ‘seed, clan, posterity’ [Iran. muka- in the Osset. mugæ ‘family’, muggag ‘seed, clan’].

not only in my imagination but also in Duridanov's
except if he he also uses extrapolations of meaning like me as you said.

well I might am ignorant of Gennetics or linguistic, but at least I read the posts and the threads,

who knows. maybe your scientific methods in your next post leads us that Marcomani were narcomani Greeks that moved away from Mane area to inhabit Mainz in Germany, right?

[sparkey]

I've put you a question which you didn't answer... can you find (and show) ANY R1a from Serbia which is 14000 old? I know that you can't. But you'll tell me that "some scientists found them". Be so nice and show us that results if you want to discuss normally. Not in a form of a propaganda paper but in a simple form of a haplotype.

Population (R1a) in Serbia is a typical Slavic population from the Carpathian basin (R1a Z280+, Carpathian III with estimated TMRCA on cca 2200 years) . Any other interpretation is just a cheap lie.

Actually, I've become very interested lately about the age of R1a in different parts of Eastern Europe. Originally, I had assumed that Haplogroup I was the only surviving Paleolithic/Mesolithic European haplogroup anywhere, but after closer inspection of Haplogroup I, it doesn't seem to be so old in places like Southeastern Europe, as we've yet to find any old Haplogroup I subclades in the area. So what is so old there? I know Maciamo has presented a compelling theory of Mesolithic E1b, but what about others? Perhaps R1a? Or at least Mesolithic R1a elsewhere in Eastern Europe, like at the Dnieper?

[zanipolo]

Actually, I've become very interested lately about the age of R1a in different parts of Eastern Europe. Originally, I had assumed that Haplogroup I was the only surviving Paleolithic/Mesolithic European haplogroup anywhere, but after closer inspection of Haplogroup I, it doesn't seem to be so old in places like Southeastern Europe, as we've yet to find any old Haplogroup I subclades in the area. So what is so old there? I know Maciamo has presented a compelling theory of Mesolithic E1b, but what about others? Perhaps R1a? Or at least Mesolithic R1a elsewhere in Eastern Europe, like at the Dnieper?

The amazing situation in "proper" illyria ( Dalmatia) is that according to maciano's maps, there is no,
I2b
E1b
T
J1
J2
R1b
and little R1a

So if I2a-din is so young , then what did the Illyrians have from south of the danube to southern dalmatia in the bronze and early iron age?
Was there an issue that the population was very minor and any decent migratory numbers pushed the local population percentage below double digits?

[how yes no 3]

NO COmment

I see you read Duridanov's work page 3
but you did not read another page, why?

i do not even know who is Duridanov...

If I2a2 Din is so young so not to be Thracian, then how come is so old to be Sherdana?
explain that first and then I might agree with your method,

how do you think haplogroups come to existence? out of thin air?
there is a parent clade in I2a tree and significant mutations on the haplotype of parent clade are classified as new branch....

there is probably no I2a-Din or only little I2a-Din in Kurds, but an older clade.... also current estimation of the timing for I2a-Din can easily be wrong as it is based on limited number of samples that family tree dna has access to... (most of samples in familytreedna database come from west europe, east Europe samples are rare, Asia samples only symbolically present)

if I2a2 Din is so young that is almost the time of Slavic migrations to Balkans
then how can it be so old to exist in ancient minor Asian population like Kurds the same one

its not that young...1000 years is not almost...

i
your method say that Kurds Sherdana Sharpedon moved to central Europe and return as Serbs and they have the same Genetic I HG,

no, I2a has high diversity area in Europe with many branches typical only for Europe, which means gene flow of I2a probably went other way around - from central Europe to Asia (of course 10000s year before haplogroup I or IJ came to Europe from Asia)....scenario I suggest is that I2a was spreading around Danube and Black sea and at some point crossed to Asia minor via Black sea and Caucasus and than continued to spread towards east and south, which was observed by Egyptians as "sea people" - military and settlement wave described as conspiracy of several tribes of northerners, who conquered first northeast part of Asia minor than south part of Asia minor than Syria...and started attacking Egypt...where their name resulted in place name Serbonian bog...

my point is that Kurds origin from those Sherdana that crossed to Asia, while modern Serbs origin from those I2a who stayed in Europe probably living somewhere around Danube... and judging by I2a-Din south they origin from those I2a people who lived in central Europe in upper or mid Danube...which does corresponds with De administrando Imperio and russian primary chronicle...

PS 1
So Pelasgians were IE and R1a Poles and Spoke Slavic language in Balkans

i never said that....
what I said is that R1a-M458 typical for west Slavs has spread from Balkan to north...
and that I think that this R1a-M458 was also related to Pelasgi...

what language they spoke is impossible to tell...
but west Slavs origin genetically largely from that population....

PS 2
So Kurds and Serbs are the same but Spoke another Language,
and I HG maybe is originate in minor Asia?

understand that timeline of haplogroups and timeline of languages are on different timescales...
we are talking about split that happened at least 3200 years ago (time of sea peoples conquest) , and probabbly much much earlier as it takes time for I2a from central Europe to advance to Asia...
Kurds and Serbs do have some customs in common - from relation to wolf, via circle dances with holding hands (btw. similar dance is in Spain called Sardana).... and Slavic languages are much closer to iranian and kurdish than e.g. Greek or germanic languages are...

so the POLES were the Sea peoples?

I believe Pelast were same as Pelasgians and R1a....
its not correct to say Poles...essentially, Pelasgians spread in 2 directions: to north where they eventually became Poles, and to east with "sea peoples" invasion where they became Pelast....
again, this is not about languages as split happened at least 3200 years ago, this is about haplogroups and origin of people.....

So Modern Kurds are Serbs cause they have I2a2 DIN
and Sherdana are also Slavic I2a2 DIN

I2a-Din is today found mostly among Slavic people...
regarding the young age of I2a-Din, Kurds probably do not have it.... they probably have parent branch of I2a...
what language I2a spoke is hard to say....
no clues about that....
what I claim is that name of nation Serb is derived from a name of I2a race... which is reflected in finding similar tribal names everywhere in correlation with I2a spreads.....
modern Serbs are small part of it...

[Yetos]

i do not even know who is Duridanov...




how do you think haplogroups come to existence? out of thin air?
there is a parent clade in I2a tree and significant mutations on the haplotype of parent clade are classified as new branch....

there is probably no I2a-Din or only little I2a-Din in Kurds, but an older clade.... also current estimation of the timing for I2a-Din can easily be wrong as it is based on limited number of samples that family tree dna has access to... (most of samples in familytreedna database come from west europe, east Europe samples are rare, Asia samples only symbolically present)




its not that young...1000 years is not almost...


no, I2a has high diversity area in Europe with many branches typical only for Europe, which means gene flow of I2a probably went other way around - from central Europe to Asia (of course 10000s year before haplogroup I or IJ came to Europe from Asia)....scenario I suggest is that I2a was spreading around Danube and Black sea and at some point crossed to Asia minor via Black sea and Caucasus and than continued to spread towards east and south, which was observed by Egyptians as "sea people" - military and settlement wave described as conspiracy of several tribes of northerners, who conquered first northeast part of Asia minor than south part of Asia minor than Syria...and started attacking Egypt...where their name resulted in place name Serbonian bog...

my point is that Kurds origin from those Sherdana that crossed to Asia, while modern Serbs origin from those I2a who stayed in Europe probably living somewhere around Danube... and judging by I2a-Din south they origin from those I2a people who lived in central Europe in upper or mid Danube...which does corresponds with De administrando Imperio and russian primary chronicle...



i never said that....
what I said is that R1a-M458 typical for west Slavs has spread from Balkan to north...
and that I think that this R1a-M458 was also related to Pelasgi...

what language they spoke is impossible to tell...
but west Slavs origin genetically largely from that population....





understand that timeline of haplogroups and timeline of languages are on different timescales...
we are talking about split that happened at least 3200 years ago (time of sea peoples conquest) , and probabbly much much earlier as it takes time for I2a from central Europe to advance to Asia...
Kurds and Serbs do have some customs in common - from relation to wolf, via circle dances with holding hands (btw. similar dance is in Spain called Sardana).... and Slavic languages are much closer to iranian and kurdish than e.g. Greek or germanic languages are...



I believe Pelast were same as Pelasgians and R1a....
its not correct to say Poles...essentially, Pelasgians spread in 2 directions: to north where they eventually became Poles, and to east with "sea peoples" invasion where they became Pelast....
again, this is not about languages as split happened at least 3200 years ago, this is about haplogroups and origin of people.....


I2a-Din is today found mostly among Slavic people...
regarding the young age of I2a-Din, Kurds probably do not have it.... they probably have parent branch of I2a...
what language I2a spoke is hard to say....
no clues about that....
what I claim is that name of nation Serb is derived from a name of I2a race... which is reflected in finding similar tribal names everywhere in correlation with I2a spreads.....
modern Serbs are small part of it...

when you check back and understand what you are writing,
then I will remind you the I2a2 Disles not DIN,
are they Serbs too?


You did not know Duridanov as you say, but you accepted the 23 words of his work, but you said as imaginary another word of his own work,

Accept, your method and posts are nothing more than a target.


PS in cold war times you could earn a lot with these posts by the propaganda ministers.
you live in wrong era.

[how yes no 3]

when you check back and understand what you are writing,
then I will remind you the I2a2 Disles not DIN,
are they Serbs too?

you still do not understand....
Sherdana and Kurds are not Serbs in modern meaning of the word... what I claim is that Kurds origin from Sherdana "sea people" directly, while I2a ancestors of modern Serbs were perhaps same tribe with those people maybe 3200-5000 years ago...(taking into account Sherdana spread from Black sea towards Egypt 3200 years before present, and that it takes some time for I2a wave to spread to the point of entering Asia ) which is quite long ago...

what I say is that tribal name of modern Serbs origin from race name for I2a people.... and that that race name is reflected in Sherdana, Sardinia, Kurd, Scordisci, Sarbans, Sart, Serbs....

You did not know Duridanov as you say, but you accepted the 23 words of his work, but you said as imaginary another word of his own work,

Accept, your method and posts are nothing more than a target.

i didnot care who published 23 words, for me it was good enough that every word comes with reference to ancient text in which meaning of the word is given....

PS in cold war times you could earn a lot with these posts by the propaganda ministers.
you live in wrong era.

the way you interpret my texts, maybe you still live in some kind of cold war era....

[Yetos]

you still do not understand....
Sherdana and Kurds are not Serbs in modern meaning of the word... what I claim is that Kurds origin from Sherdana "sea people" directly, while I2a ancestors of modern Serbs were perhaps same tribe with those people maybe 3200-5000 years ago...(taking into account Sherdana spread from Black sea towards Egypt 3200 years before present, and that it takes some time for I2a wave to spread to the point of entering Asia ) which is quite long ago...

what I say is that tribal name of modern Serbs origin from race name for I2a people.... and that that race name is reflected in Sherdana, Sardinia, Kurd, Scordisci, Sarbans, Sart, Serbs....i didnot care who published 23 words, for me it was good enough that every word comes with reference to ancient text in which meaning of the word is given....
the way you interpret my texts, maybe you still live in some kind of cold war era....

And I ask you I2a Isles people are they Serbs too?

did you check these words? where else exist? and how common they are? or possible mistakes?
at least did you read them and see their Alphabet?


in a previous text you said about these words as extrapolation meaning, now you say that they are good,


wherever the wind blows,
just lead me to target,

[zanipolo]

link below seems to be what Y&N is referring to, although a bit old it has scientific links and plausible migration of people into the balkans

http://www.reocities.com/CapitolHill...s_intro_1.html

Question; what did I1b Eu7 become to be represented now?